Property Lawyers

[chonburi12]

Hi all,

I've been intouch with a few lawyers and have been quoted a cost of 100,000THB + 7% vat for the services below. Would you consider this to be expensive AND would you need your lawyer to do anything else to assist you in the purchase of your property?

 Due Diligence report

 Contract review (when a contract already exists)

 Drafting of contracts -

 Drafting of a Power of Attorney

 Assistance at the bank in order to open up the account in Thailand and obtain the necessary letter or form

 Transfer at the land department (accompany you to perform the registration of the transfer of ownership, or perform this on your behalf)

 Translation –

 Consultation fee

[Darrel]

What's this for? A house in semi-legal company name or a condo in farang name?

If it's a condo you don't need any help.

[thaiwanderer]

Cheap .......or expensive, depending on the lawyer, your pocket and the property.

As lawyers aren't shy at charging I suspect given the middling fee its expensive for their service.

Edited January 6, 2012 by thaiwanderer

[PattayaParent]

DIY if it's a condo in your own name and if you want a lawyer as a POA it's 10,000 Baht.

[ivowatson]

10.000 baht should indeed be (more than) enough but some lawyers, sorry, legal advisors will only start talking at 10.000 per hour. It's a free world.

[ivowatson]

10,000 Baht should do it. Mind you, some (fancy) legal advisors won't talk to you for less than 10.000 per hour. But from that money, they'll have to pay a Thai lawyer (probably 5000) to do the work.

[london]

Depending on what you are buying, 100,000 Baht seems high for the services you have outlined above.

But it seems though that they are looking to assist you in ALL aspects of setting you up in Thailand. If thats the case, then its probably a fair fee for the service + you have a good (hopefully) legal contact for life.

If you're just buying a condo, really, its a simple matter of having the contract checked over (should be standard) and if there are any "Special Conditions" to have these checked....perhaps 10 minutes work there. Translation is VERY important.

Due Diligence report: mmm, well this may or may not be necessary, depending on what you are buying

Contract review (when a contract already exists): 5 - 10 minutes work

Drafting of contracts: unnecessary if a Contract already exists

Drafting of a Power of Attorney: ENDURING Power of Attorney is what you need. This shouldn't cost more than 10,000 baht as PattayaParent has said

Assistance at the bank in order to open up the account in Thailand and obtain the necessary letter or form: you could do this yourself. Its simple.

Transfer at the land department (accompany you to perform the registration of the transfer of ownership, or perform this on your behalf): They should do it. Its a simple task done by a junior office person.

Translation: can be costly, but is important.

Consultation fee : time based, so I can't see what they would be actually "consulting" on.

All up, I would say that 50,000 is tops.

[thaiwanderer]

Depending on what you are buying, 100,000 Baht seems high for the services you have outlined above.

But it seems though that they are looking to assist you in ALL aspects of setting you up in Thailand. If thats the case, then its probably a fair fee for the service + you have a good (hopefully) legal contact for life.

If you're just buying a condo, really, its a simple matter of having the contract checked over (should be standard) and if there are any "Special Conditions" to have these checked....perhaps 10 minutes work there. Translation is VERY important.

Due Diligence report: mmm, well this may or may not be necessary, depending on what you are buying

Contract review (when a contract already exists): 5 - 10 minutes work

Drafting of contracts: unnecessary if a Contract already exists

Drafting of a Power of Attorney: ENDURING Power of Attorney is what you need. This shouldn't cost more than 10,000 baht as PattayaParent has said

Assistance at the bank in order to open up the account in Thailand and obtain the necessary letter or form: you could do this yourself. Its simple.

Transfer at the land department (accompany you to perform the registration of the transfer of ownership, or perform this on your behalf): They should do it. Its a simple task done by a junior office person.

Translation: can be costly, but is important.

Consultation fee : time based, so I can't see what they would be actually "consulting" on.

All up, I would say that 50,000 is tops.

Well, if the purchase monies are inconsequential of course go for the least lawyer money and work - but since the OP is asking if 100k is expensive I imagine that's not the case.

Assuming the purchase monies aren't inconsequential decent due dilligence is a must and 5 to 10 minutes contract review is laughable.

Rich or poor, who in their right mind would want an enduring power of attorney in any purchase? It should be matter specific and very tightly worded.

[kimmy]

Monthly lawyer wages start at 12,000 baht in Thailand

[letitbe]

if in BKK top international lawyer 50,000 maximum When I purchased my first property here over 15 years ago I paid 50,000 since i knew nothing about here for a top lawyer in BKK who had team of both Thai and foreign lawyers now I pay around 5,000 and sometimes dont bother and just do it myself. forget all this due diligence crap this is not west and land office are great here. If outside BKK 10,000 baht maximum to check title etc but to be honest land office is in our experience of over 15 years and around 60+ properties excellent. You simply go down and do transfer and hand over money. Never hand any money over to anyone except at land office by cashier cheque. This is not west its better if you know how system works. As I said weve bought and sold around 60 properties. Do check chanotte is for one your buying we bought wrong unit once because seller owned several in block and neither of us spotted it was wrong condo. We sorted later but had to pay double tax. as it happened the owner sold us a condo worth a lot more than one we bought so he was happy to pat tx for transferring back to him and then transferring right condo to us. But then a solicitor would never have spotted it anyway.

[london]

Thaiwanderer,

in answer to your post:

"Well, if the purchase monies are inconsequential of course go for the least lawyer money and work - but since the OP is asking if 100k is expensive I imagine that's not the case."

Nothing has been mentioned re "inconsequential: or the moneys involved. What he is asking is: is100,000 baht expensive or reasonable?

Lawyers DO NOT charge for their services in conveyancing as a percentage of the purchase price. Its a set service basically the same for a 1 million unit or a 50 million home.

That said, yes, 100,000 baht is on the high side FOR CONVEYANCING.

"Assuming the purchase monies aren't inconsequential decent due dilligence is a must and 5 to 10 minutes contract review is laughable."

Forget the "inconsequential", please let us know actually WHAT due diligence would take longer than 10 minutes on a conveyancing brief and also why it is a "must" ? On a house purchase, it may be necessary, but on a condo purchase, thats debatable. Certainly on all the property I have purchased, a check of the contract, mortgages, report from the management (re condos) and a check of the title is all thats required.

"Rich or poor, who in their right mind would want an enduring power of attorney in any purchase? It should be matter specific and very tightly worded."

1) an Enduring Power of Attorney is MORE important per se than a Will. Much more.

2) an EPA is NOT related specifically to a Property purchase

3) an EPA by definition is NOT "matter specific". If it was, then we ALL would need one on each and every property and other major purchase.

I hope that YOU and all posters have an EPA. If not, speak with a lawyer and get it done...today !! It IS that important.

Also, please read my second paragraph in my original post:

But it seems though that they are looking to assist you in ALL aspects of setting you up in Thailand. If thats the case, then its probably a fair fee for the service + you have a good (hopefully) legal contact for life.

I think this says it all.

[london]

Oh, as a second comment, Letitbe is 100% correct !!

[thaiwanderer]

Thaiwanderer,

in answer to your post:

"Well, if the purchase monies are inconsequential of course go for the least lawyer money and work - but since the OP is asking if 100k is expensive I imagine that's not the case."

Nothing has been mentioned re "inconsequential: or the moneys involved. What he is asking is: is100,000 baht expensive or reasonable?

Lawyers DO NOT charge for their services in conveyancing as a percentage of the purchase price. Its a set service basically the same for a 1 million unit or a 50 million home.

That said, yes, 100,000 baht is on the high side FOR CONVEYANCING.

"Assuming the purchase monies aren't inconsequential decent due dilligence is a must and 5 to 10 minutes contract review is laughable."

Forget the "inconsequential", please let us know actually WHAT due diligence would take longer than 10 minutes on a conveyancing brief and also why it is a "must" ? On a house purchase, it may be necessary, but on a condo purchase, thats debatable. Certainly on all the property I have purchased, a check of the contract, mortgages, report from the management (re condos) and a check of the title is all thats required.

"Rich or poor, who in their right mind would want an enduring power of attorney in any purchase? It should be matter specific and very tightly worded."

1) an Enduring Power of Attorney is MORE important per se than a Will. Much more.

2) an EPA is NOT related specifically to a Property purchase

3) an EPA by definition is NOT "matter specific". If it was, then we ALL would need one on each and every property and other major purchase.

I hope that YOU and all posters have an EPA. If not, speak with a lawyer and get it done...today !! It IS that important.

Also, please read my second paragraph in my original post:

But it seems though that they are looking to assist you in ALL aspects of setting you up in Thailand. If thats the case, then its probably a fair fee for the service + you have a good (hopefully) legal contact for life.

I think this says it all.

Firstly the OP was a little vague on what the purchase involved, his/her nationality and experience of Thai matters but at the very least needing to ask if expensive and the list of services being offered suggests this isn't merely a conveyance - its not a few forms and transfer at the Land Office.

Of course the fee shouldn't be based proprtionally on the scale of the purchase or the OP's ability to pay but these (especially the former) are relevant when assessing the expense. I'd care and take more care over my own 50 million purchase than 1 million. That's not to say the more expensive the fee necessarily the better the service or vice versa.

For contract review I can't see what can be usefully done in 5 to 10 minutes.

For (decent) due dilligence, even reading the history of the land from first registration / record at the Land Office to date would take more than 10 minutes - so hardly deeply researched and considered. What about the impact of City Planning and site visit by Lawyer etc etc.... let alone then fully reporting on findings.

MOST IMPORTANTLY you seem to understand the difference between an POA and an enduring POA yet still suggest people get them. Given the power they bestow (and relinquish for the Grantor) there are only very narrow circumstances in which they should ever be used and I can't understand why you would suggest them here? Perhaps you kindly could clarify.

Edited January 8, 2012 by thaiwanderer

[london]

Hi Thaiwanderer.

Yes, I am very pro EPA's and both my wife and I have one.

Why? An EPA, unlike an ordinary Power of Attorney, will continue to operate even if the donor loses full legal capacity.

Simple.

Please, do look into it.

[thaiwanderer]

Hi Thaiwanderer.

Yes, I am very pro EPA's and both my wife and I have one.

Why? An EPA, unlike an ordinary Power of Attorney, will continue to operate even if the donor loses full legal capacity.

Simple.

Please, do look into it.

Look into it? How condescending

I'm well aware of the consequences of EPOAs hence me wishing to sound a note of extreme caution in your reference of them here.

[PattayaParent]

Hi Thaiwanderer.

Yes, I am very pro EPA's and both my wife and I have one.

Why? An EPA, unlike an ordinary Power of Attorney, will continue to operate even if the donor loses full legal capacity.

Simple.

Please, do look into it.

But it also empowers the holder to act on you behalf in ALL matters even when you are not incapable and is therefore open to abuse.

The POA should be specifically restricted to acting on your behalf for the purpose of purchasing the named property from the named person and shall be void on the completion of the purchase or if the purchase fails to be effected.

[london]

Hi Thaiwanderer.

Yes, I am very pro EPA's and both my wife and I have one.

Why? An EPA, unlike an ordinary Power of Attorney, will continue to operate even if the donor loses full legal capacity.

Simple.

Please, do look into it.

Look into it? How condescending

I'm well aware of the consequences of EPOAs hence me wishing to sound a note of extreme caution in your reference of them here.

Oh please !! Get a life !! If you take that as condescending, I apologise. It was certainly not intended to be and I doubt if others would take it that way.

[london]

But it also empowers the holder to act on you behalf in ALL matters even when you are not incapable and is therefore open to abuse.

Yes, the purpose of it is to act in your best interests should a situation arise where you lose capacity.

Of course, any time you give authority to another person it is open to abuse, that is why you should only give it to someone whom you trust.

The POA should be specifically restricted to acting on your behalf for the purpose of purchasing the named property from the named person and shall be void on the completion of the purchase or if the purchase fails to be effected.

I would never suggest that there would be a need for a Power of Attorney on the purchase of real estate. I was outlining to the OP that as it had been mentioned by his lawyer, he should look into an EPA, which would cover him for any issue that arose in the future.

[london]

Re EPA's,

frankly, as a general comment to those against them, simple, don't get one done.

There is nothing suggesting any compulsion.

I will say though that the antagonism against them and even the incorrect abbreviation for them given by one of the posters above shows that the actual knowledge of how they operate and their importance is sadly lacking.

I am open. I have one. My wife has one. We trust each other and trust that we would look after the other should a situation arise where we couldn't look after our own individual affairs.

If you feel that you don't need this, well don't get one.

If you feel that you will never have the need, even against unexpected situations, then don't get one.

As I have said, there is nothing compulsory about them at all.

Also, they can be revoked by the donor.

However, if you feel that it may be a useful thing to have, then do look into them. (and if you take that as condescending, well.....!!!)

Oh, in case you are wondering, yes, Law was my original profession.

[PattayaParent]

But it also empowers the holder to act on you behalf in ALL matters even when you are not incapable and is therefore open to abuse.

Yes, the purpose of it is to act in your best interests should a situation arise where you lose capacity.

Of course, any time you give authority to another person it is open to abuse, that is why you should only give it to someone whom you trust.

The POA should be specifically restricted to acting on your behalf for the purpose of purchasing the named property from the named person and shall be void on the completion of the purchase or if the purchase fails to be effected.

I would never suggest that there would be a need for a Power of Attorney on the purchase of real estate. I was outlining to the OP that as it had been mentioned by his lawyer, he should look into an EPA, which would cover him for any issue that arose in the future.

It was mentioned by the OPs lawyer in relation to real estate with the lawyer having the POA which is why an EPA would be inappropriate as it is not only for when a person loses capacity but can be (mis)-used even if you are capable.

Between a man/woman and their spouse is a different animal completely.

[london]

I was suggesting that a Power of Attorney for the transaction wasn't necessary, but rather an EPA, as a basic document, like a WIll, to be set up for the future, is. My remark was "But it seems though that they are looking to assist you in ALL aspects of setting you up in Thailand"

"an EPA would be inappropriate as it is not only for when a person loses capacity but can be (mis)-used even if you are capable."

Sorry PattayaParent, you are legally wrong. As the donor (person giving the EPA), you can instruct your attorney to take control when you are capable, but your attorney cannot just take control of your affairs if you are "capable" and you haven't instructed them.

Anyway, this is the last I will mention about this subject.

[thaiwanderer]

But it also empowers the holder to act on you behalf in ALL matters even when you are not incapable and is therefore open to abuse.

Yes, the purpose of it is to act in your best interests should a situation arise where you lose capacity.

Of course, any time you give authority to another person it is open to abuse, that is why you should only give it to someone whom you trust.

The POA should be specifically restricted to acting on your behalf for the purpose of purchasing the named property from the named person and shall be void on the completion of the purchase or if the purchase fails to be effected.

I would never suggest that there would be a need for a Power of Attorney on the purchase of real estate. I was outlining to the OP that as it had been mentioned by his lawyer, he should look into an EPA, which would cover him for any issue that arose in the future.

Re EPA's,

frankly, as a general comment to those against them, simple, don't get one done.

There is nothing suggesting any compulsion.

I will say though that the antagonism against them and even the incorrect abbreviation for them given by one of the posters above shows that the actual knowledge of how they operate and their importance is sadly lacking.

I am open. I have one. My wife has one. We trust each other and trust that we would look after the other should a situation arise where we couldn't look after our own individual affairs.

If you feel that you don't need this, well don't get one.

If you feel that you will never have the need, even against unexpected situations, then don't get one.

As I have said, there is nothing compulsory about them at all.

Also, they can be revoked by the donor.

However, if you feel that it may be a useful thing to have, then do look into them. (and if you take that as condescending, well.....!!!)

Oh, in case you are wondering, yes, Law was my original profession.

As to condescending you missed the wink, but since you wish to pull rank and then take your ball home perhaps I should reconsider my career (notice the wink, all in good humour)

The abbreviation here differs because EPA means something quite different in Thai Law as translated into English.

I had questioned who in their right mind would want one in relation to a purchase and I suspect the OP's Lawyer only mentioned POAs in relation to their attendance on his or her behalf at the Land Office, a standard procedure here.

The idea that a foreigner should trust that the document can't be (mis-)used without their instruction is frankly bizarre.

[Darrel]

I dont think I would care to give anyone in Thailand any sort of power of attorney over my affairs, unless perhaps I was abroad and it was for some specific purpose of fixed duration.

And in fact even if I was abroad at the time I think that I would prefer to hop on a plane and do it all myself.

Just to be on the safe side.