Am I A Bad Employer?

[maccaroni man]

Has any employer actually asked the people under him/her what they need to motivate them to stay?

has any employer ever had a staff member ask what they can do to make your business run better?

[lazygourmet]

Has any employer actually asked the people under him/her what they need to motivate them to stay?

has any employer ever had a staff member ask what they can do to make your business run better?

I gave up!

I trained service excellence coaching to hotel owners/managers all around Asia for the last twenty years.

The only places where they were able to decrease their staff turnover were the Gulf countries...

Just because they confiscated their passports all during the -usually- two years contract.

[BookMan]

I've enjoyed reading this thread immensely. I don't have a business in Thailand at the moment. But if I ever do i'll take some of the things written here on board regarding employees.

[Tropicalevo]

Has any employer actually asked the people under him/her what they need to motivate them to stay?

Of course they have.

I usually get the same answer. "More Money!!!!"

Six months later same same

[maccaroni man]

unskilled labor has the advantage of there always being work available, consiquently they can quit on an impulse and find work with little effort. The down side to being a part of the unskilled labor force is having to do whatever is needed from the jobs offered to them which is typically long hours at lower pay. To the best of my knowledge there are very few labor unions for the unskilled and undereducated labor force. Having said this, lets look at the skilled labor force and today they almost write their own ticket, are paid well, get benefits and like everyone else in Asia work long hours. WE ARE IN ASIA, the 30 to 40 hr work week is not reality here for anyone.

[angiud]

Has any employer actually asked the people under him/her what they need to motivate them to stay?

has any employer ever had a staff member ask what they can do to make your business run better?

A few years back a good friend of mine, owner of another Italian Restaurant in Chaweng, thinking to open a direct talking line with his 12 staff, decided to call a meeting for the day after, before the opening, to discute the needs, ideas, complains etc from the Thai staff. The day after everybody check out, fearing some complain from the employer.

I cut the opening time of 2 hours, now 10 hours working time, of which actually only 4/5 are real working time... I keep all the benefits.

The working time is now 12 hours, but actually after a rapid cleaning of the shop at 11.30 they start to survive in the back of the shop until the time the first customers come, this usually is not before 2/3 pm, but the 'real'work start around 6 until 10pm. So for sure the working time is at our western eyes so long (really!) but sometimes is simply wrong to apply our farang view on the local work market.

angiud, you are obviously a very confused man.

one the one hand you want western loyalty and work ethics.

on the other hand you want to pay thai wages, and make your staff work 12 hour shifts, 6 days a week, which (I'll do the numbers for you) is a 72 hour working week. correct me if I'm wrong, but the average working week in the western world is far far far from 72 hours.

After 11 years working in Koh Phangan with 3 restaurants together, I'm for sure a very confused man LOL

[steelerian]

After 11 years working in Koh Phangan with 3 restaurants together, I'm for sure a very confused man LOL

Obviously you are, or you wouldnt be here on this forum asking for advice. Think about it......

But, after 11 years, if you dont know yet, I dont think you ever will

[angiud]

After 11 years working in Koh Phangan with 3 restaurants together, I'm for sure a very confused man LOL

Obviously you are, or you wouldnt be here on this forum asking for advice. Think about it......

But, after 11 years, if you dont know yet, I dont think you ever will

What's your point, please tell me, because I don't know, and about the Forum, I like to share with some other members my experiences, good and bad, sometimes finding also good advices.

On the contrary, your attitude is far to be helpful (and not so clear too). ^--^

[Totster]

After 11 years working in Koh Phangan with 3 restaurants together, I'm for sure a very confused man LOL

Obviously you are, or you wouldnt be here on this forum asking for advice. Think about it......

But, after 11 years, if you dont know yet, I dont think you ever will

What's your point, please tell me, because I don't know, and about the Forum, I like to share with some other members my experiences, good and bad, sometimes finding also good advices.

On the contrary, your attitude is far to be helpful (and not so clear too). ^--^

anguid, you are a good man, don't let the idiots get to you

good luck in how you deal with it...

totster

[BigC]

sometimes staff are just lazy and they just go away.

Burmease are different because if you hold their paper work then they cannot leave your work place or they can be deported.

Please don't think that by throughing more money at them shal make them stay. they shall just take the piss more.

Then you have a problem sacking them. they can take you to court. best to just let them go.

As for making them stay. I would make them pay a retainer deposit money and sign a contract. If they leave without 1 months notice then they lose their retainer.

[theblether]

Re cutting back to 10 hours per day......very good Anguid, well done. It must also take a bit of stress off you too.......it is easy to become a slave to your business, ( I am not saying you have done though ), but I would suggest to anyone looking at starting a new business to remember that yes, there is always the all consuming part that is necessary to get it established, but eventually it must become a sustainable part of your life, not your whole life.

Dont live to work, work to live.

[angiud]

Thanks for the wise suggestion, Theblether.

What you say is for sure right, although here we have to work hard for the few months of the high season, as now, and rest, take our time (like in my case travelling and macro pictures ;-) when is low season, usually from the end of may until july.

One more girl, just came for a few days, with the new timetable, when she saw the kind of job we do daily, mostly from 7pm to 10pm, fast, a bit heavy, but well rewarded, she just run away without take the salary of her first week...

[Tropicalfrog]

Thanks for the wise suggestion, Theblether.

What you say is for sure right, although here we have to work hard for the few months of the high season, as now, and rest, take our time (like in my case travelling and macro pictures ;-) when is low season, usually from the end of may until july.

One more girl, just came for a few days, with the new timetable, when she saw the kind of job we do daily, mostly from 7pm to 10pm, fast, a bit heavy, but well rewarded, she just run away without take the salary of her first week...

Great to read all of this –

I’m returning to Thailand to set up my own business & will be relying on good service staff.

But then you didn’t find a solution yet?

In 2006 I was employed by a Thai resort who paid me very well even by western standards , but I like your staff was also expected to be onsite or in meetings 60 hours a week, my assistant was on the same hours for around 15K and like your staff she walked after a few months.

I walked after a year, but on handing my notice was offered another huge pay increase (wish I had taken it now) but by the time that had happened, I was already somewhat burnt out.

Maybe a good idea to start off light then increase and motivate as productivity increases – then reward for results?

Just a suggestion?

PS – How do you get the money from the service staff into the till without being totally fleeced in the first week?

[BigC]

staff for basic jobs can be a nightmare to find. things like cleaners and stuff. they either want too much money or they just take the piss. no matter how nice you are to them. earning their respect is another thing.

or u go to an agency where it costs you more than your business is worth

[livinthailandos]

As I work for a hotel on the island what I can tell you there are many prospectives and I"m just listening them based on my experiences, labor market conditions

1. the number of places needing staff is extremely high in part due to many new hotels that opened

2. From thai's I talk with koh samui is not a place most thai's want to work due to high cost of rent and options for housing are limited unless you live really far away which in turn you don't save any money because you have to pay more in gas prices

3. A lot of places I am aware of have not adapted interms of paying higher wages. I know places still trying to page the same wages from 6 years ago and expect staff to work with them its unrealistic to think cheap labor wages last forever

4. Most staff to be honest only want to work in the hotels because

a. most places have free housing for staff

b. free meals

c. service charge, depending on place service charge can range from 3,000 minimum to 10,000 baht on top of getting a salary as well

d. bonuses

If you think you have it hard some of the big 5 star chains have a turnover rate of 40%. thai staff that I have seen in my industry try to move up the chain really fast in terms of position to make more money and they will go to were the place will hire them for the position there wanting with more money.

If you are looking for staff I suggest a website many hotels are using to find staff for their companies ( its free to post but there is no english version of the website though )

http://www.phuketall.com/jobs/th/listjobs.php?jobs_province_id=4

you can view which hotels are hiring

http://www.phuketall.com/jobs/th/postjobs_form.php?jobs_province_id=4

this is to post your company and position

the reason for the 4 is on the website it has 4 provinces and the 4th one is for samui

hope this helps you guys

[emilyb]

The guy with the "give a set amount" is on the right track. You're not dealing with some pervasive Thai behavior here, as has been erroneously stated, you're dealing with lower and working class Thai behavior and with transient unskilled labor bhehavior. There are no HiSo, internationally educated Thai men and women with names ending in Na Ayuttayah slumming it in Phangan and Samui for the Summer. It simply does not happen. You might have some overlap with middle class (maybe even upper middle class), but that's mostly going to come out of places like Mahidol and beeline straight for the 5 stars. I'll grant that the unannounced departures and things of that nature are something you do not experience even in working class places in developed Western countries, but you also don't find it here among the internationally educated crowd (sadly, you do too often among the locally educated university crowd).

So, what you're dealing with is pretty similar to what goes on on resort islands (and other similar locales) throughout the world. A bunch overworked, low-cost labor that mostly wants to have a good time and relax. Complex bonus structures and incentive programs can work with the kind of people who go for such things (sales staff, traders, brokers, etc), but you've got essentially uneducated hospitaly workers here. The truth about worker motivations is often fairly misunderstood. Most people in this world don't want a chance to earn a ton more money via Kafkaesque scheme, they want enough to get by and enjoy their lives and spend as much time not-working as possible. I ran across this a few years ago by way of trying to explain why complex incentive structures don't work to a typical consultant/finance world entrepreneur here who burns through staff like a hot knife through butter (foreign and domestic):

It's not a treatise on the topic, but it's short and summary and if you're open to modifying your opinions on human behavior (and especially as a gauchiste you'll probably find that this rings true. Just sit through the first candle problem thing and it becomes relevant. This kind of thing becomes even more true the lower you get on the socioeconomic ladder in countries where there's no trust in institutions and employers (for good reason).

[angiud]

I have to agree with most of the above analysis. Sadly the very clear picture don't have a solution too.

On my case, I found a bunch of new worker, directed by the only survivor from the mass escape of the 5th of January. To avoid another accident as the last one, now I cut the 'complex bonus', just giving, up to me, good tip to my worker every few days, and base on their merit; but mostly now I pay their salary not on the same day for everybody, but every 30 days from the day they start to work, so if somebody want to run away, I just lose one a time and not all of my crew. And I agree to pay the salary after 15 days, so if they want to run away without a proper notice (a few days/on week is appropriate to me), they are going to lose 2 weeks of salary.

And to help the work and avoid the business going to suffer from the potential escape, I raise the number of my staff from 4 to 6.

[BigC]

I have to agree with most of the above analysis. Sadly the very clear picture don't have a solution too.

On my case, I found a bunch of new worker, directed by the only survivor from the mass escape of the 5th of January. To avoid another accident as the last one, now I cut the 'complex bonus', just giving, up to me, good tip to my worker every few days, and base on their merit; but mostly now I pay their salary not on the same day for everybody, but every 30 days from the day they start to work, so if somebody want to run away, I just lose one a time and not all of my crew. And I agree to pay the salary after 15 days, so if they want to run away without a proper notice (a few days/on week is appropriate to me), they are going to lose 2 weeks of salary.

And to help the work and avoid the business going to suffer from the potential escape, I raise the number of my staff from 4 to 6.

i would try to make papers for Burmease workers. Thai people can be hard to earn their respect unofrtuanlty you have to have a strong hold over them or they may just take the piss.

They seem to want everything and do as little as possoble. They do not give you the right to complain or they just leave. The young ladies somehow seem to run awy with a forang boy friend.

Even some of the older ladies do the same thing.

Unlesss you can get the Thais to respect you which if they did and they start to prove themseleves trust worthy and hard working then they can climb the ladder slowly and in the long run have a steady income and a better quality of life style rarther than running from job to. job.

No shortage of staff in tescos. for some reason they would rarther work there where there is no big boss just loads of policies .

If you can find your self a Thai person that respects you. Then you can ask that person to be incharge of hiring staff.

or employ burmease. if they leave you send them back to burmer

[angiud]

I employ Burmese, most of them with regular WP-passport, some paying a monthly fee somewhere

I don't find easily Thai here in KPG, most of time they are runners, debits, metheads, lazy, susceptible fellas.

[theDukes]

Great read. Some advice that you can ignore.

Work day is 9 hours with break for 1 hour, 6 days a week, 8 hours with breaks is better. Any time over is time and a half. Pay OT.

Holidays are 13 a year. Vacation pay is 1 week a year. Pay extra or give time off with pay.

Complicated salary structuring is confusing and usually misunderstood. Staff just wants to know how much they are making.

Hire women and hire women that are more plain than beautiful.

Don't hire boyfriends and girlfriends, girlfriends and girlfriends or boyfriends and boyfriends.

Don't hire anyone with a foreign boyfriend.

Do pay 5-7 days after the end of the pay period. If someone asks to be paid on the last day of the pay period they are planning on leaving.

Mix up the staff, some hilltribe, some Burmese and some Thai.

Let your wife do the hiring.

Men don't work well. Men do not do well with women making more money than them or with being reprimanded.

Don't befriend staff. Don't spend time trying to get staff to like you. They won't respect you.

At the end of the day the islands are places where staff tends to be transient. They are there to make the big bucks and then go home. Pay well and have a stable environment and let the staff who are coming and going and/or staying send in more replacements. The restaurant industry in Thailand is no different than in the west. Restaurant jobs are looked at as temporary and usually for the young. I don't subscribe to this but it is a fact of the industry.

Finally, good staff do not leave without notice.

[ClaudeFeller]

Well said, theDukes.

Basic rule is: 8 hrs per day, OT to be paid, 6 working days per week and 13 days off per year

To add:

Don't hire ladyboys, they are only making problems

Don't hire a group with same family/village background. If one of them wants or has to leave, you will loose the whole group.

[BigC]

it is a shame with all this untrust worthy people out there should create a huge vacum for trust worthy people. over time that person's name shall spead and people shall be fighting to use them.

too many people trying to make big cash and fast.

personally i think that thai do not like to losse money.

if i was for example i was to pay them a salary of 10,000 baht per month i would pay them 9000 baht and 1000 into a deposit account which they get back every 6 months bound to terms and conditions.

that would be 1 time every sonkhran holiday and one time new years. plus profit related nobus at the end. so if the company does well at the end of the tax year then the staff get a small cut.

they would have to give me 1 months notice if they want their deposti money back and other terms.

if they were to get the sack then they shall not be entitiled to it.

they would sign a contgract before i hire them in thai and in english so they already know the rules.

so every month they work they shall be losing more money should they decide to up and leave.

I shall also hold extra 10 k for staff that wish to leave but give me plenty of notice befor hand and work probperly up to the day they leave.

beleive me the thais are experts when it comes to money schemes and they shall study the policy through and through to see what they are entitiled to.

other thing might also help such as health inssurence that they would lose if they left. Also it helps you as an employer if the staff are inssurend if they are sick or have a ccident then they shal be back at work quicker and they shall not have to run from a heavy medical bil which in some case the boss pays then the worker leaves

Edited February 21, 2012 by BigC

[wasas]

it is a shame with all this untrust worthy people out there should create a huge vacum for trust worthy people. over time that person's name shall spead and people shall be fighting to use them.

too many people trying to make big cash and fast.

personally i think that thai do not like to losse money.

if i was for example i was to pay them a salary of 10,000 baht per month i would pay them 9000 baht and 1000 into a deposit account which they get back every 6 months bound to terms and conditions.

that would be 1 time every sonkhran holiday and one time new years. plus profit related nobus at the end. so if the company does well at the end of the tax year then the staff get a small cut.

they would have to give me 1 months notice if they want their deposti money back and other terms.

if they were to get the sack then they shall not be entitiled to it.

they would sign a contgract before i hire them in thai and in english so they already know the rules.

so every month they work they shall be losing more money should they decide to up and leave.

I shall also hold extra 10 k for staff that wish to leave but give me plenty of notice befor hand and work probperly up to the day they leave.

beleive me the thais are experts when it comes to money schemes and they shall study the policy through and through to see what they are entitiled to.

other thing might also help such as health inssurence that they would lose if they left. Also it helps you as an employer if the staff are inssurend if they are sick or have a ccident then they shal be back at work quicker and they shall not have to run from a heavy medical bil which in some case the boss pays then the worker leaves

You wouldnt get any staff to work for you, cos they cannot understand your hiring details. easy thing my mate does is he pays them on the 1st of the month, and they get the tips on the 15th, If they want to leave give notice or lose your tip money

Edited February 21, 2012 by Rooo
Separated quote from reply.

[BigC]

it is a shame with all this untrust worthy people out there should create a huge vacum for trust worthy people. over time that person's name shall spead and people shall be fighting to use them.

too many people trying to make big cash and fast.

personally i think that thai do not like to losse money.

if i was for example i was to pay them a salary of 10,000 baht per month i would pay them 9000 baht and 1000 into a deposit account which they get back every 6 months bound to terms and conditions.

that would be 1 time every sonkhran holiday and one time new years. plus profit related nobus at the end. so if the company does well at the end of the tax year then the staff get a small cut.

they would have to give me 1 months notice if they want their deposti money back and other terms.

if they were to get the sack then they shall not be entitiled to it.

they would sign a contgract before i hire them in thai and in english so they already know the rules.

so every month they work they shall be losing more money should they decide to up and leave.

I shall also hold extra 10 k for staff that wish to leave but give me plenty of notice befor hand and work probperly up to the day they leave.

beleive me the thais are experts when it comes to money schemes and they shall study the policy through and through to see what they are entitiled to.

other thing might also help such as health inssurence that they would lose if they left. Also it helps you as an employer if the staff are inssurend if they are sick or have a ccident then they shal be back at work quicker and they shall not have to run from a heavy medical bil which in some case the boss pays then the worker leaves

You wouldnt get any staff to work for you, cos they cannot understand your hiring details. easy thing my mate does is he pays them on the 1st of the month, and they get the tips on the 15th, If they want to leave give notice or lose your tip money

it is not hard to work out they get a set wage of say 8000 baht which is a normall wage and if they play there card right then they get more money every 6 months or they lose money from those months if they walk away.

It sounds complicated but i practice it is not that hard to understand. People that work in banks out here and they all need a guarentee. some need 3 million baht in a deposit account or a family memeber to put land up to stop staff running away with loads of cash.

Out here the thais are far less likey to walk away if they shall lose more. If they have nothing to lose by leaving then there is nothing stoping them from coming and going which is why they come and go as they please.

with out deposit money you have no hold over them.

Most thais have no money for a depsit account so you deduct money from there salary and put it into a deposit account. This way every month ey work the more money that they can get if they behave. If not then they lose.

Also have them on a contract to protect you. Soemtimes staff leave then take their former bosses to court for back pay and un fair dismissal. but for real noone knows if you have sacked that person or not.

so if you do sack someone then make sure it is in writting.

It seems complicated but if you do it simply then you are back to having no staff which is the reason why he has the problem.

One thing that ll people respect in the working world is money. If you are holding there money then you have more of a fir say in what goes on..

If staff have nothing to lose from walking away then how do u know that they shall not ust walk off and not come back after pay day.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Rooo
Double quote.

[stiggy]

15k to start up to 18k , plus health care Bupa, 5 and a half day week, paid holidays 15 days per year, performance based bonus scheme (3-6 k per qtr ),phone card allowance, days off for uni exams and chance to study (costs approx 5 k per year)

enviroment Professional but sanook at all opportunities.

Have a great team 11 in total more coming , barring pregnancy and one wrong un had one leave for no reason in 6 years,plus one who now works in a bank (started with us with no qualifications left with experience and a thai degree.)

Finding good staff is a real pain on the islands, so keep them with a good package and it will save you lots of hassle in the long run.

Id put any one of my team up against 3 or even 4 regular paid workers in terms of productivity reliability and trust with finances.

This all came about after years of struggling and messing around with smaller wages and taking on anyone who seemed up for the job.

[angiud]

I cannot afford 18.000++ a month for my employees, it's an out of market salary for restaurant staff

I know several farang here in KPG ready to work for that salary. I'm no kidding

[BookMan]

15k to start up to 18k , plus health care Bupa, 5 and a half day week, paid holidays 15 days per year, performance based bonus scheme (3-6 k per qtr ),phone card allowance, days off for uni exams and chance to study (costs approx 5 k per year)

enviroment Professional but sanook at all opportunities.

Have a great team 11 in total more coming , barring pregnancy and one wrong un had one leave for no reason in 6 years,plus one who now works in a bank (started with us with no qualifications left with experience and a thai degree.)

Finding good staff is a real pain on the islands, so keep them with a good package and it will save you lots of hassle in the long run.

Id put any one of my team up against 3 or even 4 regular paid workers in terms of productivity reliability and trust with finances.

This all came about after years of struggling and messing around with smaller wages and taking on anyone who seemed up for the job.

What industry are you in?

[stiggy]

Watersports and Diving industry, the work is normally office based or customer service based.I understand the fact that food places spend less on salary, but same principle applies for the islands you simply need to pay more and offer more.

Otherwise once they have partied out , mum and dad get on there case or they have had there western GF/BF partner experience they move on.

However they dont tend to move on when family says,stay money is good and they can visit occasionally without fear of losing job or not getting paid those days

I have had offices in bangkok in the past too, only way to keep them on team was by paying well and taking care of them.

The restuarants I see doing well in tourist areas in the gulf islands Phuket etc, also pay key staff well (15-25k) and the competition is fierce to get the good staff.

If its your GF/BF MIL or wife running the place, good luck generally it may make a profit but its unlikely see it as all staff will be most likely be extended family of sorts some great some bad.

Ma and pa or cheap thai food establishments not an issue, any serious place charging above normal Thai prices for food needs to up there game with service.

This costs Money.

KPG has changed massively the last years, more and more couples and families visit, like it or not its fast becoming a part of Samui in terms of tourists.(outside of course the monthly Full mooners)

[itishothere]

.... mum and dad get on there case or they have had there western GF/BF partner experience they move on.

However they dont tend to move on when family says,stay money is good and they can visit occasionally without fear of losing job or not getting paid those days

Not heard this in any of the other posts in this topic. And have to say it makes a lot of sense to me. Earn a decent amount of money to enjoy your life here, have enough to send home to Mom, and also maybe have the ability for education. Family influences can be very significant, and I would bet this is an important factor in stiggy being able to retain staff for so long in what can be a very transient industry.

[KRS1]

6000 baht plus incentives that are not clear nor certain, leaves question in the minds of the workers. They are looking for something more stable.

It is also a 12 hour workday and doesn't matter if there are no customers all the time. They have no life other than the restaurant.

...and if your customers are predominantly foreign, your workers will not want the stress of learning another language.

Try making schedules to work in shifts, then you can keep pay at 6000 baht only.