U.S. launches probe into video of U.S. Marines urinating on Afghan corpses

[flying]

I agree with Geriatrikid, this is an artificially generated storm in a teacup, aided and abetted unfortunately by our press who seem to have difficulty distinguishing between acts perpetrated on living human beings and those at best symbolic

I find it hard to believe that you missed this topic..........

http://www.thaivisa....in-afghanistan/

You want acts perpetrated on living humans?

Watch the BBC documentary posted on the first page of that other topic.

Yeah big Tea Cup that storm you mentioned is in.

I don't know about Thailand but here in the USA & probably the rest of the western world....

this story is on every channel.

It is just another nail in the coffin of what once was our respectability period.

RIP

Edited January 13, 2012 by flying

[Scott]

I have started deleting posts and warnings will be issued. You are under no obligation to reply to other posters, especially if the post is inflammatory or baiting.

You DO NOT have permission to tell other posters not to post because their arguments are 'old and tired.'

Suspensions will be given unless you keep it civil.

[QED]

Not wishing to condone the actions of these soldiers in desecrating the remains of their enemies, but did you know that in the 1st and 2nd Afghan wars, whenever a non Muslim member of the British forces where captured by the Pashtuns, they where staked out on the ground, their mouths kept open with a wooden stick, then the Pashtun women would straddle them and urinate into their mouths taking it in turns until they drowned..........we are now being told by the media that it is unacceptable to Islam and that they would never desecrate bodies?

[Wallaby]

Maybe one day we'll know the full story and what possessed these kids to show their disgust for the Taliban dead in this manner.

Most likely some buddies got killed or got their limbs blown off. I'm sure they had their reasons, but filming it was not too bright.

So what they did was ok but to film it was wrong.

Certainly showing your true colors. I doubt your comments would be so soft if this had happened to a US serviceman or an Israeli.

The subjects are dead. Sure, it's not the brightest move, but all this fuss is sheer fakery and false indignation. Peeing on a corpse is wrong, we all know it. No one is defending the accused, but some of us are trying to understand that the horrors and harshness of the Afghanistan mission have a hand in this situation. There is also a double standard. When the Afghans butcher someone alive and film it for all to see, its downplayed as the poor chaps are defending their land from the invader. The thing is that many of these Taliban fighters are not even Afghani but are recruits from Yemen and Pakistan. why should I be overly concerned about the dis[position of dead Afghanis that toss acid on girls, that burn down schools that plant IEDS? I'm more concerned about the emotional damage that may have been exhibited by these soldiers. I'd be more concerned about the missing NCO and the officer supposed to be supervising.

'Not the brightest move'.... 'peeing on a corpse is wrong'. hmmm, how about, it is so wrong it is against the rules of war and illegal.

You may think it is a storm in a teacup but those that matter are taking it very seriously. One of the soldiers is now in custody.

No point talking about what other countries do, that has absolutely no relevence to how US soldiers behave.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Wallaby

[Steely Dan]

I agree with Geriatrikid, this is an artificially generated storm in a teacup, aided and abetted unfortunately by our press who seem to have difficulty distinguishing between acts perpetrated on living human beings and those at best symbolic

I find it hard to believe that you missed this topic..........

http://www.thaivisa....in-afghanistan/

You want acts perpetrated on living humans?

Watch the BBC documentary posted on the first page of that other topic.

Yeah big Tea Cup that storm you mentioned is in.

I don't know about Thailand but here in the USA & probably the rest of the western world....

this story is on every channel.

It is just another nail in the coffin of what once was our respectability period.

RIP

Nope, I didn't miss that thread and I entirely agree with Bonobo's stance on that issue. Try putting the apples in the apple basket and the pears in the pear basket for a change. Whatever the U.S army did pales into insignificance compared to sundry other regimes and terrorist groups. As for the BBC they are so lib-left they would do anything to discredit the U.S in favour of the most obnoxious groups so take anything they produce with a pinch of salt.

[Wallaby]

Not wishing to condone the actions of these soldiers in desecrating the remains of their enemies, but did you know that in the 1st and 2nd Afghan wars, whenever a non Muslim member of the British forces where captured by the Pashtuns, they where staked out on the ground, their mouths kept open with a wooden stick, then the Pashtun women would straddle them and urinate into their mouths taking it in turns until they drowned..........we are now being told by the media that it is unacceptable to Islam and that they would never desecrate bodies?

I don't think it should matter what the Afghans think of it. It matters what WE think of it because the military is acting on our behalf.

[bonobo]

The physical reality is that this act is nothing. It does not affect the dead. It does not make them any worse off that they were. The fact that they were killed trumps a little urine. This pales in comparison to things done by all combatants though time, even within the field of desecration.

The psychological reality is much more grave. It reflects a mindset of disrespect for a people, that we consider Afghans less than human. And whether this reflection is accurate or not, that is the perception. And that will hurt the NATO cause.

That Marine sniper team (well, more than one team) was stupid, flat out stupid. Urinating on a corpse serves no useful purpose and can only have deleterious consequences. So why do it? And why video it? These men need to be drummed out of the Corps.

As an aside, to address some previous posts, while i have not served in Afghanistan, I have spoken to many who have, some who served with me in Iraq. In Iraq, after the fall of Saddam, we did pretty much consider all combatants as terrorists due the tactics they used. But in Afghanistan, there are two groups, from what I have been told. The ones doing IED's and blowing up markets, the ones coming in and murdering village heads, yes, they are considered terrorists by the troops. But the ones who actually fight, who try to stand up to the NATO forces, no, the ground soldier considers them to be soldiers, and there is a grudging respect for them.

[chooka]

Maybe one day we'll know the full story and what possessed these kids to show their disgust for the Taliban dead in this manner.

Most likely some buddies got killed or got their limbs blown off. I'm sure they had their reasons, but filming it was not too bright.

So what they did was ok but to film it was wrong.

Certainly showing your true colors. I doubt your comments would be so soft if this had happened to a US serviceman or an Israeli.

I would not be happy about it, but I would be MUCH more concerned about our soldiers having thier heads cut off when they were alive than anything that happened when they were already dead. Some folks will use any lame excuse to trash the US.

I thought these were U.S servicemen and not people imitating Americans. It is not about people trashing or bashing the U.S they have clearly done that to them selves.

[Gers1873]

These Marines, like way too many other people, acted before considering the consequences of their actions. How many more of their own fellow soldiers will now die because of their actions? Not only are they serving as recruiting tools for the Taliban across the Moslem world they have brought disgrace to a uniform that should be worn with pride.

The action in itself was reprehensible the recording of the action on digital media was completely stupid...... As Forrest Gump once said "stoopid is as stoopid does".

Edited January 13, 2012 by Gers1873

[koheesti]

No not the Nuremberg trials. < snipped info to save space>

Thanks for the info Kerry

I always thought the Geneva Convention came about after the Nuremberg trials

Surely you've watched Hogan's Heroes?

Edited January 13, 2012 by koheesti

[farang000999]

I dont get this logic that killing someone is OK but just dont piss on their dead body. When I hear about this it does not disgust me at all. I think the worst thing you can do to someone is kill them. What happens after that is pretty dam_n irrelevant.

[koheesti]

I dont get this logic that killing someone is OK but just dont piss on their dead body. When I hear about this it does not disgust me at all. I think the worst thing you can do to someone is kill them. What happens after that is pretty dam_n irrelevant.

I know myself and other Americans were pretty outraged at video of a dead American soldier being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu back in 1993.

[Steely Dan]

These Marines, like way too many other people, acted before considering the consequences of their actions. How many more of their own fellow soldiers will now die because of their actions? Not only are they serving as recruiting tools for the Taliban across the Moslem world they have brought disgrace to a uniform that should be worn with pride.

The action in itself was reprehensible the recording of the action on digital media was completely stupid...... As Forrest Gump once said "stoopid is as stoopid does".

I think you are in danger of confusing pretext and motive. The Taliban are religiously motivated zealots who are in their eyes fighting a holy war against infidel invaders. They are probably told of much worse fabricated misdeeds done by the invaders and promised a shopping list of carnal delights in paradise if they are 'martyred' - these are the motives for their jihad, not some grainy video of acts that pale into insignificance compared to throwing acid in schoolgirls faces or any number of other atrocities they presume authority to commit.

Indeed we can go too far in pandering to local sensitivities to the degree that it puts our own troops at risk, as has happened repeatedly, I'm sure Bonobo could give you anecdotes of this.

[Wallaby]

These Marines, like way too many other people, acted before considering the consequences of their actions. How many more of their own fellow soldiers will now die because of their actions? Not only are they serving as recruiting tools for the Taliban across the Moslem world they have brought disgrace to a uniform that should be worn with pride.

The action in itself was reprehensible the recording of the action on digital media was completely stupid...... As Forrest Gump once said "stoopid is as stoopid does".

I think you are in danger of confusing pretext and motive. The Taliban are religiously motivated zealots who are in their eyes fighting a holy war against infidel invaders. They are probably told of much worse fabricated misdeeds done by the invaders and promised a shopping list of carnal delights in paradise if they are 'martyred' - these are the motives for their jihad, not some grainy video of acts that pale into insignificance compared to throwing acid in schoolgirls faces or any number of other atrocities they presume authority to commit.

Indeed we can go too far in pandering to local sensitivities to the degree that it puts our own troops at risk, as has happened repeatedly, I'm sure Bonobo could give you anecdotes of this.

It pales into insignificance when considered against the attrocities meted out on prisoners held at Abu Ghraib. What the opposing forces do is totally irrelevent, unless of course you think it is ok for the coalition to slowly but surely stoop down to their level.

And there I was thinking we are over there because our western way is so much better.

[Wallaby]

The soldiers could be in for serious trouble for what I'm sure they thought of as a 'prank' done in the heat of battle. That's if it was actually in the heat of battle as it is not yet confirmed if the Afghanis were fighting or just everyday civilians.

But it is pure nonsense to come out with the argument that the opposing forces commit worse attrocities.

Despoiling of the dead is illegal under the Geneva conventions as well as under US military law.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/12/american-marines-accused-war-crimes

[Steely Dan]

These Marines, like way too many other people, acted before considering the consequences of their actions. How many more of their own fellow soldiers will now die because of their actions? Not only are they serving as recruiting tools for the Taliban across the Moslem world they have brought disgrace to a uniform that should be worn with pride.

The action in itself was reprehensible the recording of the action on digital media was completely stupid...... As Forrest Gump once said "stoopid is as stoopid does".

I think you are in danger of confusing pretext and motive. The Taliban are religiously motivated zealots who are in their eyes fighting a holy war against infidel invaders. They are probably told of much worse fabricated misdeeds done by the invaders and promised a shopping list of carnal delights in paradise if they are 'martyred' - these are the motives for their jihad, not some grainy video of acts that pale into insignificance compared to throwing acid in schoolgirls faces or any number of other atrocities they presume authority to commit.

Indeed we can go too far in pandering to local sensitivities to the degree that it puts our own troops at risk, as has happened repeatedly, I'm sure Bonobo could give you anecdotes of this.

It pales into insignificance when considered against the attrocities meted out on prisoners held at Abu Ghraib. What the opposing forces do is totally irrelevent, unless of course you think it is ok for the coalition to slowly but surely stoop down to their level.

And there I was thinking we are over there because our western way is so much better.

In case it wasn't crystal clear I was addressing specifically whether or not such admittedly stupid acts actually do act as a recruiting tool for the Taliban, I would argue otherwise. Indeed the Obama regime seems to have bent over backwards in it's outreach to the Arab world, without any hint of gratitude from the Arab street from what I can ascertain, not to mention the likes of Karzai.

[Wallaby]

These Marines, like way too many other people, acted before considering the consequences of their actions. How many more of their own fellow soldiers will now die because of their actions? Not only are they serving as recruiting tools for the Taliban across the Moslem world they have brought disgrace to a uniform that should be worn with pride.

The action in itself was reprehensible the recording of the action on digital media was completely stupid...... As Forrest Gump once said "stoopid is as stoopid does".

I think you are in danger of confusing pretext and motive. The Taliban are religiously motivated zealots who are in their eyes fighting a holy war against infidel invaders. They are probably told of much worse fabricated misdeeds done by the invaders and promised a shopping list of carnal delights in paradise if they are 'martyred' - these are the motives for their jihad, not some grainy video of acts that pale into insignificance compared to throwing acid in schoolgirls faces or any number of other atrocities they presume authority to commit.

Indeed we can go too far in pandering to local sensitivities to the degree that it puts our own troops at risk, as has happened repeatedly, I'm sure Bonobo could give you anecdotes of this.

It pales into insignificance when considered against the attrocities meted out on prisoners held at Abu Ghraib. What the opposing forces do is totally irrelevent, unless of course you think it is ok for the coalition to slowly but surely stoop down to their level.

And there I was thinking we are over there because our western way is so much better.

In case it wasn't crystal clear I was addressing specifically whether or not such admittedly stupid acts actually do act as a recruiting tool for the Taliban, I would argue otherwise. Indeed the Obama regime seems to have bent over backwards in it's outreach to the Arab world, without any hint of gratitude from the Arab street from what I can ascertain, not to mention the likes of Karzai.

I'm not surprised when Obama's words are contradicted but the troops actions.

[Ulysses G.]

The subjects are dead. Sure, it's not the brightest move, but all this fuss is sheer fakery and false indignation. Peeing on a corpse is wrong, we all know it. No one is defending the accused, but some of us are trying to understand that the horrors and harshness of the Afghanistan mission have a hand in this situation. There is also a double standard. When the Afghans butcher someone alive and film it for all to see, its downplayed as the poor chaps are defending their land from the invader.

False indignation indeed. Where is all this clamor when some poor little girl has her hands cut off for trying to get an education?

[Wallaby]

The subjects are dead. Sure, it's not the brightest move, but all this fuss is sheer fakery and false indignation. Peeing on a corpse is wrong, we all know it. No one is defending the accused, but some of us are trying to understand that the horrors and harshness of the Afghanistan mission have a hand in this situation. There is also a double standard. When the Afghans butcher someone alive and film it for all to see, its downplayed as the poor chaps are defending their land from the invader.

False indignation indeed. Where is all this clamor when some poor little girl has her hands cut off for trying to get an education?

Because the people that did that aren't representing me and are not claiming to be the bastion of all that is good in the world, and aren't in MY country doing it.

[Ulysses G.]

I am pretty sure that those 4 soldiers do not claim to be "the bastion of all that is good in the world." They are violating US policy and will be punished for it.

The men mutilating little girls are doing it because the Taliban wants them to.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[flying]

Try putting the apples in the apple basket and the pears in the pear basket for a change. Whatever the U.S army did pales into insignificance compared to sundry other regimes and terrorist groups.

I have no problem putting blame where blame is due.

Your attitude of comparing who does worse things is the standard excuse of those who act irresponsibly then look for an excuse.

Carry on though

Edited January 13, 2012 by flying

[Wallaby]

I am pretty sure that those 4 soldiers do not claim to be "the bastion of all that is good in the world." They are violating US policy and will be punished for it.

The men mutilating little girls are doing it because the Taliban wants them to.

I don't hear anyone saying the people that throw acid at anyone are fine upstanding citizens.

The 4 soldiers made an oath when they signed up for the military. It is their duty to behave appropriately and legally. Whether they like it or not.

[flying]

Surely you've watched Hogan's Heroes?

"I know nothing! I see nothing!"

Sure loved it as a kid

[Ulysses G.]

They will be punished for violating US policy, but they should do a liitle more time for being thick as a plank.

[Scott]

One inflammatory post has been removed.

Please refrain from making personal comments aimed at individual posters for expressing their opinion.

[Pakboong]

They will be punished for violating US policy, but they should do a liitle more time for being thick as a plank.

Actually, it is not really a simple matter of policy, it is however punishable under the UCMJ and the manual for courts martial under the general article 134,

I am typing this from memory so it not verbatim with the manual. The article would be in consideration of actions that bring discretit to the service. Punishable conduct which tends to bring the service into disrepute.

Desecration of the dead is also a violation of the rules of warefare as outlined in the Geneva Convention.

[Tonto21]

Acceptable or not this is one of the ugly sides of war. It has to be remembered that all service man regardless of the country or branch they serve in are a broad brush stroke of the society they grow up in.

I don’t condone or like the actions of the solders what so ever, but I do understand why this sort of thing happens. What’s we are seeing here is the same as the putting a cigarette in a dead enemies mouth and having your photo taken with them, mutilating the body, cutting off ears or placing their dead enemy in degrading position with each other and again, taking photos…………..Americans can take cold comfort that there serviceman are no different than solders of other nations. It comes down to a unit by unit discipline thing.

Solders, as I’ve said are drawn from all walks of life, and most are, what you or I would term as normal. If someone serving is a bit of an animal, well fact is….. They were an animal before they joined up.

It is very easy to second guess what went on from reading a newspaper, internet report or watching a TV news report from the comfort of a safe environment, but this will never convay the stress and fear troops on the ground have to live with day in day out. You can’t turn stress on and off at will. Surviving contact with a hostile force hell bent of killing you, when you felt you were going to die……… In most cases when there is any defiling an enemy’s corpse, (after close contact) is done out of a release of fear, the body before you is not a human, he/they just tried to kill you, and you want to tear them apart…In times gone by victors would eat there flesh….Wear their skin……Sounds a bit farfetched doesn’t it? Just look back throughout history, history is littered with horror tails of this sort of thing.

Having said the above……It’s not acceptable for soldiers to do this, I lay the blame at the feet of the command structure, J/NCO, S/NCO and Offices. It should never have happened, poor discipline.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Tonto21

[Wallaby]

Acceptable or not this is one of the ugly sides of war. It has to be remembered that all service man regardless of the country or branch they serve in are a broad brush stroke of the society they grow up in.

I don’t condone or like the actions of the solders what so ever, but I do understand why this sort of thing happens. What’s we are seeing here is the same as the putting a cigarette in a dead enemies mouth and having your photo taken with them, mutilating the body, cutting off ears or placing their dead enemy in degrading position with each other and again, taking photos…………..Americans can take cold comfort that there serviceman are no different than solders of other nations. It comes down to a unit by unit discipline thing.

Solders, as I’ve said are drawn from all walks of life, and most are, what you or I would term as normal. If someone serving is a bit of an animal, well fact is….. They were an animal before they joined up.

It is very easy to second guess what went on from reading a newspaper, internet report or watching a TV news report from the comfort of a safe environment, but this will never convay the stress and fear troops on the ground have to live with day in day out. You can’t turn stress on and off at will. Surviving contact with a hostile force hell bent of killing you, when you felt you were going to die……… In most cases when there is any defiling an enemy’s corpse, (after close contact) is done out of a release of fear, the body before you is not a human, he/they just tried to kill you, and you want to tear them apart…In times gone by victors would eat there flesh….Wear their skin……Sounds a bit farfetched doesn’t it? Just look back throughout history, history is littered with horror tails of this sort of thing.

Having said the above……It’s not acceptable for soldiers to do this, I lay the blame at the feet of the command structure, J/NCO, S/NCO and Offices. It should never have happened, poor discipline.

A very good post. Don't forget it works for both sides so one if one is minded to 'accept' that such things are part of war then it goes without saying that if Afghan/Taliban fighters do the same thing then that shoud also be an 'acceptable' part of war.

I have never been battle and hopefully never will but I can understand on a somwhat lesser scope the desensitising that can occur.

[Steely Dan]

It was a CBS report, edited it out as I mentioned the relevant facts below.

Here is a U.S news channel report, of interest is the Pi chart at the end as to what should happen to the marines in question. 47% strongly disapprove but 40% say they should not be punished, whilst 13% actually approve of their actions, so that's a small majority for 'so what'?

Edited January 13, 2012 by Steely Dan

[geriatrickid]

I am pretty sure that those 4 soldiers do not claim to be "the bastion of all that is good in the world." They are violating US policy and will be punished for it.

The men mutilating little girls are doing it because the Taliban wants them to.

I don't hear anyone saying the people that throw acid at anyone are fine upstanding citizens.

The 4 soldiers made an oath when they signed up for the military. It is their duty to behave appropriately and legally. Whether they like it or not.

Fair enough. The soldiers will face discipline if they are guilty of the offence. I understand the need for discipline in the ranks, but this is hardly a serious war crime. It was stupid, it was ignorant, it was wrong, but hardly a capital offence worthy of the demands for harsh retribution. No one was physically injured as the objects of the of the inappropriate behaviour were already dead. It is basically the same as desecration of a grave and the penalties for such an act is not "hanging". The perps may have had mitigating circumstances such as battle fatigue/stress. Mental state is a mitigating factor when people commit criminal acts.

Edited January 13, 2012 by geriatrickid