The Loss Of Status

[Pudgimelon]

It is true that I have a few "hot-button" topics on this forum that always trigger a nice long-winded rant from me, but a lot of people are under the mistaken impression that I have some sort of "hang-up" over the topics of sex or drinking.

Actually, that's not quite true. Personally I don't care if people get loaded and hump like bunnies, its not my business. But it becomes my business when people behave themselves in public in a way that negatively impacts me. And the sad reality in Thailand is that all farang are lumped into the same group and stereotyped accordingly. So the few bad apples (or thousands in this case) end up spoiling it for the rest of us.

It's not so much that I care about losing status myself (I'm quite secure where I am), but it's more that it's such a real pity that we've been given this wonderful gift of a "new life" over here and so many people squander it. It just seems to me to be such a shameful waste.

Here, let me explain what I mean:

Last year I was chatting with my friend about the custom of "wai'ing". I wanted to know how to wai, when to wai and who to wai. Since my friend was the vice consul of the US Embassy at the time, and had been trained by the State Department (his Thai was perfect thanks to our tax dollars ), I figured him to be something of an expert on the topic.

He told me that Thais automatically confer a very high status to farang. I mean, very high. We're right up there with teachers and monks in terms of the degree of status we COULD recieve. So according to him, 90% of the time, we wait until someone wai's us, and then we respond with a polite wai (except to children, whom you don't have to wai). Elderly people, monks, and your wife/gf's parents still get wai'd first, but for the most part, farang get conferred the highest status in the room and therefore are the last to wai anybody.

DON'T get me wrong. I'm not saying that you can strut around like a puffed-up peacock and act like you're better than everyone. I'm only saying that when you first step off the plane, your status is set to "high", not your value as a human being (that part's up to you, and you alone).

If you behave like a feckless git or a pompous a$$, you'll lose face faster than taxi driver on yaa-baa. Likewise, if you get red-faced drunk in public, date a bar girl, yell at someone in public, disrespect someone's parents, dress dirty/impolitely, or otherwise behave like a fool, you can kiss your status good-bye.

Why does all that irk me so much? After all, many of you don't care about status, and I'm sure some of you rather enjoy the attention of putting on a public display.

Well, because it's a d_mn shame, that's why.

Many of us (including myself) come from poor backgrounds and we probably never really got a fair shake in our home countries. We certainly didn't have much of a shot at making an impact on a national or HISTORICAL level.

But here, in this beautiful little country. We do. We really do. We are given such a wonderful gift, and yet sadly many of us choose to just piss it all away.

My dad was a telephone wireman and a carpenter and I went to a public high school. If I was Thai and came from those exact same circumstances, I'd have almost no status at all and I'd probably consider myself lucky to be living in a shanty and working as a parking lot security guard at Tesco.

But because I'm a farang, I'm automatically accorded the same status that would be given to the highest of the hi-so. Granted, I can lose it all in about 15 seconds if I'm not careful, but the point is that it's there... if I want it.

Think about it guys, you have to admit that's a pretty cool opportunity. How often in your life are you given the chance to start completely over, but not at the bottom, rather at the TOP.

Which is why I think it's a bit sad and pathetic that so many people come to this country and promptly throw this gift into the gutter in their headlong rush right back down to the very bottom of the social pecking order.

Collectively, we could wield political, economic, social and historical power equal (or greater) than the Chinese if we put our minds to it. Maybe not right away, but our children could certainly inherit our positive status and rise to the heights of influence in this country.

You can come here and totally re-invent yourself, transform from a nameless, average joe, to a respected businessman and community leader, perhaps even on a national level. Of course, I'm not saying that you can b_llsh_t about your past and expect to snow job people into believing you're something you're not. That's not going to work, period. Thai people aren't stupid and they can sniff out liars and fakes eventually.

What you can do is change from just another nameless, faceless cubicle warrior into a man (or woman) of consequence. You can MATTER here. Doesn't that interest any of you?

And all you have to do is dress the part, aim a bit higher when seeking a mate, and behave in a courteous, humble and polite way (in other words, show some manners).

In return, Thai people will give you that precious, wonderful gift called: Opportunity.

Anyway, that's the real motivation behind most of my rants. I know there's really not much I can do to change the way some people think. They're going to come here and party like 19-year-olds on Spring Break (even if they're really 45) and they aren't going to allow anyone to tell them differently. Some of them will eventually settle down and raise a family, but that status they lost from their "party days" is gone forever. Neighbors won't forget the constant stream of girls you used to bring home. Even if you move, your new neighbors are going to remember the last few farang in their neighborhood who behaved similarly, and they're going to check to see if you have "signs" of a similar past (tattooed, beer-drinking, pool-playing wives/gfs are a dead give-away).

Bah-da-bing-bah-da-boom, you're back to being an average joe, grunting out a living same as you did back home. Granted, you can probably do it in a more comfortable style than you could back home, but still, that opportunity to really matter for once in your life is gone.

So yeah, I write long-winded rants (like this one) sometimes, but don't confuse my ranting with some prudish hang-up. I just think it's a real shame that we farang have collectively blown such a wonderful opportunity.

This is probably a unique window in Thai history. They are on the cusp of becoming an honest-to-god "developed nation". We have a real chance (either directly or through the values we teach our children) to influence that process. How often do you get to do something like that? Influence the HISTORY of a nation? Think you got a shot of doing that back in the UK or the States? Fat chance. But here, you do.

And yet so many people come here and immediately relegate themselves to the sidelines. Not only that, but they don't care if their actions tarnishes the collective image of all farang in this country (including their own children). "Self-gratification above all else" is their motto.

'Tis a shame. A d_mn shame.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[OxfordWill]

Brilliant post. Post of the year. Nothing to add.

[Guest endure]

Hire a teenager while they still know everything...

[BambinA]

im trying to read.. but i just wake up..head is numb..

too long for 5am

[britmaveric]

[bkkmadness]

Interesting post Pudgie and nice to explain why you sometimes erk people with your posts here.

I also agree thats its great to come to Thailand and be able to invent yourself, or at least take a fresh chance to being who you want to be away from the constraints of your old neighbourhood, especially if it was a bad one.

A couple of points I gotta disagree with though.

But because I'm a farang, I'm automatically accorded the same status that would be given to the highest of the hi-so. Granted, I can lose it all in about 15 seconds if I'm not careful, but the point is that it's there... if I want it.

Your not given that status as a farang at all, in fact many Thais will treat a farang with the same amount of respect they treat other Thai people, and thats the correct way it should be and all I deserve and expect to take.

And all you have to do is dress the part, aim a bit higher when seeking a mate, and behave in a courteous, humble and polite way (in other words, show some manners).

In return, Thai people will give you that precious, wonderful gift called: Opportunity.

If I can only take oppurtunites from people that choose to give it to me on the basis of my wifes/gfs status in Thai society, then its an opportunity that I'm willing to lose.

I understand that by marrying the correct girl, and wearing the correct clothes you will definately get you further in Thai society but I would be willing to lose that status if I was happy being the other way.

Should my freedom of choice in a gf/wife be taken from me because of how other people think? Why should their prejudices concern me? They don't.

And just a quick note for you dude, on a personal level.

Even if you move, your new neighbors are going to remember the last few farang in their neighborhood who behaved similarly, and they're going to check to see if you have "signs" of a similar past (tattooed, beer-drinking, pool-playing wives/gfs are a dead give-away).

My gf loves playing pool dude, never did before but she got into the game coz I play it alot. Last week she had a beer and even a cigarette with it (she doesn't smoke or drink as a rule but once a month she'll indulge in half a beer and a ciggy if we are out).

She also wakes up and goes to work at a high end real estate company every Monday. I understand that someone may see her when she drinks that beer and has the ciggy and may consider her a bargirl and consider her a lowly scumbag Thai because of it, but those people are idiots, and you need to be very careful yourself that you don't fall into that same trap, your posts often read with that same snobbishness that I hate in the Thais, I hope it ain't so.

Thailands a country I choose to live in, and I'm a polite guy and do the right thing by people whenever I can, but like society back in the UK and society here there are people that define their status by class, money, education and family. Those people are fools and I have no time for them.

There are certainly better qualities to judge how you are and how others are as a person in this world, kindness, consideration, honesty etc.

[bkkmadness]

Collectively, we could wield political, economic, social and historical power equal (or greater) than the Chinese if we put our minds to it. Maybe not right away, but our children could certainly inherit our positive status and rise to the heights of influence in this country.

This is probably a unique window in Thai history. They are on the cusp of becoming an honest-to-god "developed nation". We have a real chance (either directly or through the values we teach our children) to influence that process. How often do you get to do something like that? Influence the HISTORY of a nation? Think you got a shot of doing that back in the UK or the States? Fat chance. But here, you do.

Have to add as well, I dont think farang will ever get to that level here above the Chinese. In fact I would say its night on impossible and you would probably stand a better chance of doing that at home. Look at Maggie Thatcher, her Dad run a grocery shop.

[Baal]

And all you have to do is dress the part, aim a bit higher when seeking a mate, and behave in a courteous, humble and polite way (in other words, show some manners).

In return, Thai people will give you that precious, wonderful gift called: Opportunity.

Could you please explain what these opportunities are?

Provide some examples?

Just curious.

[Mighty Mouse]

You are talking about people collectively and we are all different. You will never get the masses to do all things your way.

Your outlook on life and your own personal practices, may well be mature and responsible, but you can't put an old head on young shoulders. Experience cannot be given, only gained.

In public, people behave differently. The majority are law abiding, the majority respect the rights and comforts of others, but there will always be groups of rebels who want to have their own brand of fun, irrespective of who they upset. It is the police job to ensure that they don't take their "fun" too far.

You state: Collectively, we could wield political, economic, social and historical power equal (or greater) than the Chinese if we put our minds to it. Maybe not right away, but our children could certainly inherit our positive status and rise to the heights of influence in this country.

China will be the next world superpower. Thailand will never overtake it, no matter how disciplined or motivated her population is. Sorry, but I think your philosophy on this subject is the impossible dream.

You then state: I think it's a bit sad and pathetic that so many people come to this country and promptly throw this gift (opportunity) into the gutter in their headlong rush right back down to the very bottom of the social pecking order. What you can do is change from just another nameless, faceless cubicle warrior into a man (or woman) of consequence. You can MATTER here. Doesn't that interest any of you?

The majority of ex-pats in Thailand are there to retire. My version of 'retirement' is to put your feet up, smell the roses, relax and enjoy the remainder of your life. All the hard work should now be behind you. Enjoy the fruits of your labour.

I doubt if you will get too many retirees who want to make a name for themselves by taking on the world in their twilight years.

Contrary to what you claim, I can't see any 'shame' in that.

[fanta rood]

I agree with you

Edited December 2, 2005 by fanta rood

[bkkmadness]

You state: Collectively, we could wield political, economic, social and historical power equal (or greater) than the Chinese if we put our minds to it. Maybe not right away, but our children could certainly inherit our positive status and rise to the heights of influence in this country.

China will be the next world superpower. Thailand will never overtake it, no matter how disciplined or motivated her population is. Sorry, but I think your philosophy on this subject is the impossible dream.

I think he meant the power of the Chinese influence in Thailand and how we as farangs might be able to weild more power in the futre in Thailand. An impossible dream though I agree.

Saying that, maybe Thaksin could step aside and the next PM could be from Dagenham.

[Morden]

A really excellent post, Pudgimelon. Thank you.

I agree that Westerners who settle in Thailand have a great opportunity to influence the future of the country. That applies especially to those who have children there. To those who are aware, Thailand has much that is good to offer us. In return, we can offer it the best of the skills and lessons that we bring from our own cultures, even if it's only an idea of what to reject from the West.

I hope to spend much more time there in the not too distant future but retirement will mean neither slippers on the porch nor the forced labour of the elderly now promised by the UK government. However, though I shall try to pass on the best of my own culure, I expect that it will be me who gains the most.

As you say, it is up to each one of us to behave as he sees fit and to seek whatever he wants in Thailand. It is a pity, though, to see some of the loutish behaviour that lets us all down. I don't dismiss it as a characteristic only of the young. I think that it's more the product of a repressed Western background - once set free from what controls them, some people have no self-maintained boundaries and are either unaware of or unconcerned by the offence that they cause to others.

Thanks again for a great opening post.

[jrincon17]

im trying to read.. but i just wake  up..head  is  numb..

too long for 5am  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bambina wasnt lying about her breats was she ?

[wilko]

(except to children, whom you don't have to wai)

Apparently not the case...I'm reliably told that you can reply to a wai from a child with a low chest wai.

I was informed the former by some people from the North West but now talking to middle class Thais in Bkk I've been told the latter.

[bkkmadness]

(except to children, whom you don't have to wai)

Apparently not the case...I'm reliably told that you can reply to a wai from a child with a low chest wai.

I was informed the former by some people from the North West but now talking to middle class Thais in Bkk I've been told the latter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps its an age thing, of the children I mean as in a 5 yr old or a 16 yr old? I have heard that you never wai children in return and I'm pretty sure thats the case.

BTW, middle class and from BKK dont mean they know any better, I imagine most Thais know the deal when it comes to waiing.

Edited December 3, 2005 by bkkmadness

[Baal]

As you say, it is up to each one of us to behave as he sees fit and to seek whatever he wants in Thailand. It is a pity, though, to see some of the loutish behaviour that lets us all down. I don't dismiss it as a characteristic only of the young. I think that it's more the product of a repressed Western background -

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Repressed WESTERN background?

Compared to what? Thais throwing napkins on the ground to get a footprint?

[wilko]

I would be so sad if my only aim in life was to aquire status...

[vjoe]

Are you sure about the high status bestow on a Farang upon landing?

I'd guess most Thai people wai farang first because they expect the farang not to know

how to wai and is just showing them the welcoming spirit.

Kind of like Aloha in Hawaii, you know.

[dereklev]

You state: Collectively, we could wield political, economic, social and historical power equal (or greater) than the Chinese if we put our minds to it. Maybe not right away, but our children could certainly inherit our positive status and rise to the heights of influence in this country.

China will be the next world superpower. Thailand will never overtake it, no matter how disciplined or motivated her population is. Sorry, but I think your philosophy on this subject is the impossible dream.

I think he meant the power of the Chinese influence in Thailand and how we as farangs might be able to weild more power in the futre in Thailand. An impossible dream though I agree.

Saying that, maybe Thaksin could step aside and the next PM could be from Dagenham.

Can't see that that happening.....

But maybe, just maybe, the Luk Kreung of Dagenham man will become PM! !

[Pudgimelon]

Your not given that status as a farang at all, in fact many Thais will treat a farang with the same amount of respect they treat other Thai people, and thats the correct way it should be and all I deserve and expect to take.

You are correct. I would be more accurate to say that you're given the opportunity to attain that status. You can earn it, and earn it very quickly, but I think a lot of Thais have developed a bit of cynicism when it comes to farang, thanks in large part to the rowdy louts on the Skytrain and fly-by-night, half-as_ backpacking "teachers".

Like I said, it's a shame we've lost some of our collective luster. Many Thais will still grant us high status (or the opportunity to earn it, which is something they don't give to every nationality, just look at how they treat Africans), but it is also true that in many cases, you still need to prove your not "one of those farang", before you gain their trust and respect.

If I can only take oppurtunites from people that choose to give it to me on the basis of my wifes/gfs status in Thai society, then its an opportunity that I'm willing to lose.

Sadly, you know just as well as I do that this is the case in this country. But is it really all that different than it would be back home? If a movie star married a laundry attendant or if a high-powered broker started dating a toll-booth operator, wouldn't eyebrows be raised?

I'm not commenting on whether or not this is the RIGHT thing, I'm just stating that it is the FACT of our circumstance here.

Look, I'll be the first to admit that the girl at my local Dairy Queen is a total HOTTIE, and one of the cleaning girls in my building is also pretty adorable. However, you know as well as I do, that in Thai society, those girls are in a certain "class" and if you start dating them, you insert yourself right into that class with them.

Again, not saying that's right, just saying that's reality.

Many guys come here, they get a bit overwhelm by the "selection" and they start dating every girl that flashes them a smile (which is often, practically every girl they meet). I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but I am saying that it'll certainly torpedo your status in the eyes of many Thais.

You're at a "status-opportunity-level" where if you present yourself well and maintain a well-groomed and polite appearance you can legitimately date movie starlets and hi-so princesses. So all I'm saying is why waste all that potential on the girl at Dairy Queen? Sure, she may be a real sweetheart, but frankly, I don't find girls like that all that attractive anymore because it's just too ###### easy. When I was dating (briefly) girls like that would practically fling themselves at me, and dating them consisted of one movie followed by a hundred "I LOVE YOU" sms messages. Ugh.

I prefer a challenge.

I understand that by marrying the correct girl, and wearing the correct clothes you will definitely get you further in Thai society but I would be willing to lose that status if I was happy being the other way.

I totally agree with this sentiment and I would fully support anyone who choose that path.

HOWEVER, to get Thais to go along with us would require exerting some of that collective influence we possess, but don't use. We could help influence Thai culture in a positive direction and show them that the quality of the person matters more than the quality of the tailor or the quality of their pedigree.

It's perfectly acceptable for a large immigrant population to influence the majority (in fact, it can be quite beneficial for all concerned) so I hope nobody tells me that we shouldn't "meddle" in Thai culture. This is my adopted home and the home of my future descendants, so I'll meddle all I please, thank you.

Also, I would agree with a "loss of status" in the name of love and happiness, but sadly, you'll have to agree that this is NOT the reason many farang choose to pursue every food stall girl they see. Many guys are simply pissing away their status in pursuit of yet another strange new piece of as_.

And that, I'm sure you'll agree, is truly a pathetic reason to give up an opportunity to really and truly matter.

My gf loves playing pool dude, never did before but she got into the game coz I play it alot.  Last week she had a beer and even a cigarette with it (she doesn't smoke or drink as a rule but once a month she'll indulge in half a beer and a ciggy if we are out)... ...your posts often read with that same snobbishness that I hate in the Thais, I hope it ain't so.

I didn't mean to insult anyone's wife or gf with that statement. I was only trying to relay the fact that this is exactly what your neighbors are going to think when you show up in their building with her in tow.

When I came here, I actually lost a bit of status because of my American girlfriend. She was a dark-skinned, tattooed Chinese-American, so most people here assumed she was Thai. However, like many American girls, she was brash, dressed provocatively, smoked like a chimney and drank like a fish. I'm sure many people thought she was just a bargirl who rudely pretended she didn't know how to speak Thai. Heheh.

So all I'm saying is that while you and I may not judge girls based entirely on appearance, Thais absolutely do.

Thailands a country I choose to live in, and I'm a polite guy and do the right thing by people whenever I can, but like society back in the UK and society here there are people that define their status by class, money, education and family. Those people are fools and I have no time for them.

There are certainly better qualities to judge how you are and how others are as a person in this world, kindness, consideration, honesty etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I said, that's a wonderful sentiment, and definitely something Thais could stand to learn from us. But there's not much chance of us influencing them in that regard when our peers are busying themselves fondling hookers on the Skytrain (can you imagine doing the same thing on a bus that ran through your neighborhood back home? Sometimes my mind boggles at what some people think is "acceptable" public behavior here).

[wilko]

Are you sure about the high status bestow on a Farang upon landing?

I'd guess most Thai people wai farang first because they expect the farang not to know

how to wai and is just showing them the welcoming spirit.

Kind of like Aloha in Hawaii, you know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess based on a survey of one that is a fair conclusion.....the one being American? And we all know how good they are at working out foriegn cultures....

As for the Wai thing...is it not possible that different areas have different approaches?

Certainly there are people do not know or practice the finer points of social mores and manners in all countries.

[britmaveric]

Most people could careless of what others think, its simple you treat people with respect you get it back whether its a bg or a monk.

Status - who cares?

Opportunities -

I'm sure you mean well, but off mark once again. Live your life and stop worrying about what other people are doing.

[wilko]

Look at Maggie Thatcher, her Dad run a grocery shop.

So did Mr Sainsbury.....

[Baal]

Are you sure about the high status bestow on a Farang upon landing?

I'd guess most Thai people wai farang first because they expect the farang not to know

how to wai and is just showing them the welcoming spirit.

Kind of like Aloha in Hawaii, you know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess based on a survey of one that is a fair conclusion.....the one being American? And we all know how good they are at working out foriegn cultures....

As for the Wai thing...is it not possible that different areas have different approaches?

Certainly there are people do not know or practice the finer points of social mores and manners in all countries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, you give him a hard time for being a survey of ONE, but you are "WE".

LOL, how many people are typing with you.....right now?

Meds?

Edited December 3, 2005 by Baal

[Pudgimelon]

I would be so sad if my only aim in life was to aquire status...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its not about acquiring status. It's about using the gift of opportunity that is given to all of us in a way that benefits ourselves, our families, our communities and society in general.

If you read my post and all you got out of it was "he's a status-seeker", you really missed the mark.

In the simplest terms, what I was trying to say is that you have the opportunity in this country to be a legitimate man of consequence, not just some average schmuck.

You have a real shot at not only bettering your life significantly, but also impacting Thailand on a national and historical level. Not everyone will achieve that level, but the point is, it's there, waiting for someone to seize it. Did you really, truly have that back home?

I think that goal is a bit more redeeming than a simple, banal desire to achieve status.

That is what I see as the real tragedy. Not that we don't all go around carrying on like a bunch of hi-so snobs, but that we have a unique and wonderous opportunity to re-invent ourselves as people who MATTER in a important and positive way, but so many of us piss it all away chasing cheap beer and cheaper women.

What a waste!

Edited December 3, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[wilko]

LOL, how many people are typing with you.....right now?

Inside or outside my head?

or

Is that a royal "WE"?

[wilko]

QUOTE] re-invent ourselves as people who MATTER in a important and positive way, but so many of us piss it all away chasing cheap beer and cheaper women.

What a waste!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What on earth is a person who matters? Who wants to reinvent themselves? I'm quite happy with the way I am and certainly am not going to re-model myself to fit in with some half baked ideas about status...it's a concept riddled with so many irksome overtones....if we want to do any good in Thailand perhaps we should try and get rid of the hierarchical nature of society here and all the corruption and nepotism that goes with it.

[wilko]

Most people couldn't care less of what others think, its simple you treat people with respect you get it back whether its a bg or a monk.

Status - who cares?

Opportunities -

I'm sure you mean well, but off mark once again. Live your life and stop worrying about what other people are doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never thought I'd find myself agreeing totally with you BM but there you go!

(Although I've edited your comments to "Couldn't")

[britmaveric]

but so many of us piss it all away chasing cheap beer and cheaper women.

Not this again.....you are judging people with your own archaic sense of morality

Edited December 3, 2005 by britmaveric

[Pudgimelon]

Status - who cares?

Opportunities -

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't speak for everyone, but my own experience teaches me that opportunities and status exist here in truckloads for the farang willing and able to grab them.

Back in the States, I was a average dot-com cubicle warrior. True, I did appear on MTV News once when we wrestled a big show in New York (that's me in my avatar, by the way), but other than that, I really hadn't accomplished too much in my life.

I come here and suddenly I'm hanging out at weddings where the Minister of Defense is the guest of honor, and my wife skips out on a meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister to go snorkelling in Phi Phi with me, and I open my own business for the first time in my life, and I paid for it by tutoring the children of CEOs, Members of Parliament, and movie actresses.

I can't realistically imagine having the opportunity to do those kinds of things or meet those same kinds of people back in the States.