The Loss Of Status

[bkkmadness]

Sorry, this is from my last post where I skipped the end of a sentence and too late to edit:

I have a basic rule in life, I only want to achieve status or respect from people who I respect also. In 1950s America, I would not have spat on a black girl to gain respect of the whites around me. A strong example, but one that does ring true when toned down to the 'dating' a low class Thai scenario. I could not change my (hopefully decent) moral code, to fit in with those that held what I would consider to be lowly and immoral beliefs of either a certain class or race is better than another.

In bold is the part I missed out on.

[Pudgimelon]

So after reading that Pudgie I have to ask you at what cost will you pay to achieve that status, how many people will you have to disrespect first? And considering a girl to lowly to marry because she works in a shop is a lack of respect.

Am I speaking Spanish?

How many times do I have to say that my original post (and every post after it) was NOT ABOUT SOCIAL CLIMBING!!!!!!!

Acquiring some elitist, snobbish airs is about 180 degrees OPPOSITE from what I have been saying!

Argh. It's so frustrating. I'm talking about a legitimate issue here and everyone seems to want to paint me as some elitist snob simply because I want to better myself, give my children better opportunities, and make a positive contribution to my adopted home.

Could you please explain to me HOW that attitude is "snobbish".

My description of the hypothetical "Dairy Queen girl" was meant to descibe a THAI perception of class, NOT my own!! (It is, in fact, something I'd like to see CHANGED about Thailand). Something which I very clearly stated in my post, and something to which you, yourself, AGREED was true!!!!

So please tell me how you can acknowledge what I said was true. And also acknowledge that you understand that I'm accurately describing a THAI attitude and not my own. And then a few paragraphs down heap criticism upon me for possessing that same attitude?

One of this countrys problems is the lack of respect for the lower classes, is that somethin you wish to amplify?  Is becoming part of the problem really moving Thailand forward in the way you hope it moves forward?

CROMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By all the GODS! Exactly what needs to be said by me to get this point across?

I DO NOT WISH TO AMPLIFY THE SITUTION!

I DO NOT WISH TO "BECOME PART OF THE PROBLEM"!

I DO NOT LOOK DOWN ON "LOWER CLASSES"!

I DO NOT WISH TO CLIMB ANY SOCIAL LADDERS!

I AM NOT AND HAVE NOT BEEN TALKING ABOUT ANY OF THIS "STATUS-SEEKING GARBAGE (EXCEPT TO RESPOND TO REPEATED ATTEMPT TO FLAME ME FOR IT).

We clear on that yet?

Geesh.

I am, and always have been, talking about the "loss of status (esteem, honor, prestige)" that is happening COLLECTIVELY to farang in this country and how we are wasting our potential to really matter here.

We could be one of the powerhouse ethnic groups (like the Chinese) in this country, but instead many seem content to armchair quarterback from the sidelines.

I'm sorry, but I may have to retract what I said about "being down" with a retiree's desire to come here, relax, and just "do as you please". Upon further reflection I think that's a cop-out too. Well, maybe not a cop-out, but I certainly hope that when I'm in my golden years, I'm not farting around waiting to die. I would like to hope that I'd still be living an active and dynamic life as an ESTEEMED member of MY community (HERE!), and not as some socially-segregated misfit.

Florida suffers from the same mentality, actually. All those retirees flock down to Florida to vegetate until they kick the bucket. And they sure as heck don't want to pay for any taxes and they sure as heck always vote with THEIR best interests in mind (and not the best interests of their new adopted home) and they sure as heck don't want to actually LIVE in the state (preferring instead to segregate themselves into gated communities where kids are banned and the only thing they have in common with the rest of Florida is the weather).

The net result is that Florida school systems SUCK because they don't get enough funding to teach the kids who actually live there. Those kids then get stuffed into low paying jobs because they can't compete with better-educated imports from up north, and so then when they turn to drugs and crime is it any big surprise?

So when those kids are breaking into the homes of those tax-fighting, non-participatory retirees, they've got nobody to blame but themselves. Likewise, here in Thailand, people seem content to complain about problems without actually noodling the concept that they could actually DO something about those problems.

Which is what I've been trying to say all along. The "loss of status" of which I speak is a self-inflicted wound in our ethnic group, and one that is in many cases, intentional.

I think this is a real shame because I think many of the problems Thailand faces would be solved if only the farang in this country (yes, you retirees too), stopped self-segregating themselves and started PARTICIPATING in our communities!

Is this our home or not?

The answer to that question (for me, at least), is "yes". And if it's my home you better d_mn well believe I'm going to participate. I'm not at the point in my life where I want to be put out to pasture. I've still got plenty of miles in me and the great thing about Thailand is that here, we all have got an OPPORTUNITY to make a real contribution, one that would be on par with the great immigrant generations of the American 1930's.

I just think it's too bad so many of you seem to have gotten so comfortable with the position of "sideline cynic" that you seem threatened by the concept of being asked to "do more".

Edited December 3, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[Belfastboy]

i do agree with some some points of both arguments...

but i think thai people give the most respect the older the person who are...i guess the way it should be "respect your elders" ...

in my opinion some farangs think they have gained respect from thai people, im sorry to admit in my opinion there are not just thai people but people in general who would see farangs as walking ATMs and a path to a better life....therefore in return gaining a fake respect of those who want a part of that world....

as i say...not in all cases but i have seen a fair few and my wife who is thai assures me this is the case...she would know better than farangs who have got the rosey glasses on.....

sad but true, i guess in many situations....

[solo siam]

I agree, any status that farangs perceive they are granted in Thailand is due to two things.

i) They are automatically seen as wealthy

ii) They are visitors to the country

Number 1 is by far the most important, If a Thai person cant afford to visit your country then they will automatically assume you are wealthier than them, which would generally be true.

[bkkmadness]

I do understand your post Pudgie, I'm pretty sure your not speaking Spanish and though whilst not one of your admirers on this forum, I do like the topic and am happy to have a good debate with you about it. Comments about speaking spanish with little angry smileys will make me think different about bothering though.

I didnt make criticisms of you I hope, but I asked questions which I thought might help us along with discussion.

I understand you are talking about the Thais perception of dating that girl in Dairy Queen. I also know that your status will not drop in every Thai persons eyes, but it will drop by certain Thai people. I don't much care about losing status in the eyes of those people, I don't much care about losing their respect either, people like that are simply not worth my time.

Ok, simple question, so I can work out exactly where you are coming from.

Would you date a girl from Dairy Queen yourself, even if it meant a loss of status for yourself in the eyes of certain Thais?

[britmaveric]

The OP strangely reminds me of imitation flowers - looks nice, lasts forever - however artificial and hollow inside. No substance.

[bkkmadness]

Actually, Saturday night in Bangkok, I think Im just gonna go get drunk, catch up on this hot topic tomoz.

[chuchok]

Ok, simple question, so I can work out exactly where you are coming from. 

Would you date a girl from Dairy Queen yourself, even if it meant a loss of status for yourself in the eyes of certain Thais?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to butt in, but does this girl at Dairy Queen have big breasts? This is a very important fact that may have been overlooked.

[zzap]

I think we farangs are initially given the benefit of the doubt, because they don't know how to judge us.

That can wear off very quickly, though. Astonishing how quickly some, specially the loudmouthed type who always complain and know better, can sink to the bottom, or a "tua hia".

[Pudgimelon]

Ok, simple question, so I can work out exactly where you are coming from.  Would you date a girl from Dairy Queen yourself, even if it meant a loss of status for yourself in the eyes of certain Thais?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I liked her? Sure, heck yeah.

However, like I said in my post, it's just too d_mn easy.

During my brief stint as a single man in Thailand, I grew increasingly frustrated with girls flinging themselves at me after only a few dates. I'm not being conceited, I'm sure many of us can relate similar stories.

You see a cute girl, ask her out on a date, and suddenly she's "in love".

How many of you have had a variant of this conversation?:

ME: Thanks for the great evening, I enjoyed the movie. Call you tomorrow.

GIRL: I love you!

ME: Huh? This is our first date. Don't you think you're being a bit quick?

GIRL: Oh no, you're a great guy. I love you so much!

ME: Um. You don't know anything about me. How can you say that?

GIRL: Because you're warm and kind and handsome!

ME: What's my last name?

GIRL: ........ (thinking to herself: "does this matter?")

You get the idea.

I'll admit it was a nice boost to the ego to have pretty girls take a keen interest in me, but the luster quickly wears off, especially if you're at that point in your life where spiritual, emotional, intellectual and moral connections start to matter almost as much as physical connections.

A few dates like that and I quickly became turned off to the whole notion of asking a girl out simply because SHE was interested. That only leads to a whole pain-in-the-ass process of trying to extricate yourself from a first date "girlfriend-for-life".

The thing that attracted me to my wife the most was that she initially had absolutely no romantic interest in me at all. I had to "win" her over, and that was a bigger turn on than yet another pretty face and great body.

So "class" had almost no impact on my dating selections. After all, I dated a girl at ECC, which in some people's opinion's here is lower than Dairy Queen! Did I consider my "status" when I asked her out? Heck, no. I just liked her, that's all.

Likewise, the main reasons I asked my wife out on our first date was because she was an intelligent, independent and stylish woman. We were friends and I sincerely liked her, so it seemed perfectly natural for us to be together, and luckily for me, it was.

But to suggest that "class" played a role in that decision is laughable. My wife is certainly a classy lady, but that's about it. She's educated and comes from a good family, but she's not rich by any stretch and she's definitely not a snob.

When we go up north to visit Grandma and Grandpa, we sleep on the floor of their wooden shack same as everybody else. My wife scrubs the clothes in the basin and I fight with the dogs and eat my weight in fried beans. There's nothing "hi-so" about that. Just as there is nothing "hi-so" about the status (as in esteem) I say we farang are collectively losing.

The people who claim I'm pretentious don't know me and are basing their false assumptions on the fact that--unlike them--I can put more than two words together at a time to make sentences.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[think_too_mut]

What a troll.

[Pudgimelon]

Ok, simple question, so I can work out exactly where you are coming from. 

Would you date a girl from Dairy Queen yourself, even if it meant a loss of status for yourself in the eyes of certain Thais?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to butt in, but does this girl at Dairy Queen have big breasts? This is a very important fact that may have been overlooked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She's racked.

[Glauka]

Interesting post Pudgie and nice to explain why you sometimes erk people with your posts here.

  I also agree thats its great to come to Thailand and be able to invent yourself, or at least take a fresh chance to being who you want to be away from the constraints of your old neighbourhood, especially if it was a bad one.

A couple of points I gotta disagree with though.

But because I'm a farang, I'm automatically accorded the same status that would be given to the highest of the hi-so. Granted, I can lose it all in about 15 seconds if I'm not careful, but the point is that it's there... if I want it.

Your not given that status as a farang at all, in fact many Thais will treat a farang with the same amount of respect they treat other Thai people, and thats the correct way it should be and all I deserve and expect to take.

And all you have to do is dress the part, aim a bit higher when seeking a mate, and behave in a courteous, humble and polite way (in other words, show some manners).

In return, Thai people will give you that precious, wonderful gift called: Opportunity.

If I can only take oppurtunites from people that choose to give it to me on the basis of my wifes/gfs status in Thai society, then its an opportunity that I'm willing to lose.

I understand that by marrying the correct girl, and wearing the correct clothes you will definately get you further in Thai society but I would be willing to lose that status if I was happy being the other way.

Should my freedom of choice in a gf/wife be taken from me because of how other people think? Why should their prejudices concern me? They don't.

And just a quick note for you dude, on a personal level.

Even if you move, your new neighbors are going to remember the last few farang in their neighborhood who behaved similarly, and they're going to check to see if you have "signs" of a similar past (tattooed, beer-drinking, pool-playing wives/gfs are a dead give-away).

My gf loves playing pool dude, never did before but she got into the game coz I play it alot. Last week she had a beer and even a cigarette with it (she doesn't smoke or drink as a rule but once a month she'll indulge in half a beer and a ciggy if we are out).

She also wakes up and goes to work at a high end real estate company every Monday. I understand that someone may see her when she drinks that beer and has the ciggy and may consider her a bargirl and consider her a lowly scumbag Thai because of it, but those people are idiots, and you need to be very careful yourself that you don't fall into that same trap, your posts often read with that same snobbishness that I hate in the Thais, I hope it ain't so.

Thailands a country I choose to live in, and I'm a polite guy and do the right thing by people whenever I can, but like society back in the UK and society here there are people that define their status by class, money, education and family. Those people are fools and I have no time for them.

There are certainly better qualities to judge how you are and how others are as a person in this world, kindness, consideration, honesty etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AGREE!!!!

[ray23]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you 100% on your "I'm only a guest here" comment.  That's a cop-out. 

If I come here, raise a family, pay taxes, and buy a house/car/whatever, then this is my HOME and I have every right to have my voice heard in MY new country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok thank you for respectfully disagreeing with me. A cop out who did you vote for the last Thai election? How much real property do you own in your name? Have you managed to get Thia citizenship? How about permaneant residence status? Or are you here on a visa If you have something other then a visa congradulations I tip my hat to, you have done well.

If you are like the majority of us the only right you have is to remain here until your visa expires or your issued or not issued another.

Let me clue you into something just because you don't have job in your retirement, doesn't mean your watching grass grow or sitting in some bar getting drunk everyday or at the boom boom parlour. There are many other ways to spend time here.

Many of us do a lot in communities to help, but that is a privilage that we are accepted and trusted to do that, not a right.

The fact is until you get past the visa status you are guest here and nothing more. Secondly you are minority here and Thai people can be some of those most prejudice people in the world. never forget a Thai has learned all through life how to smile when he really wants to tear your heart out.

It's admirable that you choose to live your life in a resepectful manner so do I, but that has nothing to do with Thailand I did the same thing in the states.

I have choosen to wish you well on your choosen road, I find it difficult to understand why you want to be judgemental as to my choosen road. Since it in no way affects you.

You are very proud of your adjustment to Thailand, I would suggest you delve into the tolerance aspect of this country. There could very well be much to learn there.

[Glauka]

Am I speaking Spanish?

I wish you did... Sorry I need to make the joke...

My english is too poor for this kind of topic ( very interesting indeed). But I share my opinions 98% (I haven´t read all the post) with bkkmadness...

[think_too_mut]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you 100% on your "I'm only a guest here" comment.  That's a cop-out. 

If I come here, raise a family, pay taxes, and buy a house/car/whatever, then this is my HOME and I have every right to have my voice heard in MY new country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok thank you for respectfully disagreeing with me. A cop out who did you vote for the last Thai election? How much real property do you own in your name? Have you managed to get Thia citizenship? How about permaneant residence status? Or are you here on a visa If you have something other then a visa congradulations I tip my hat to, you have done well.

If you are like the majority of us the only right you have is to remain here until your visa expires or your issued or not issued another.

Let me clue you into something just because you don't have job in your retirement, doesn't mean your watching grass grow or sitting in some bar getting drunk everyday or at the boom boom parlour. There are many other ways to spend time here.

Many of us do a lot in communities to help, but that is a privilage that we are accepted and trusted to do that, not a right.

The fact is until you get past the visa status you are guest here and nothing more. Secondly you are minority here and Thai people can be some of those most prejudice people in the world. never forget a Thai has learned all through life how to smile when he really wants to tear your heart out.

It's admirable that you choose to live your life in a resepectful manner so do I, but that has nothing to do with Thailand I did the same thing in the states.

I have choosen to wish you well on your choosen road, I find it difficult to understand why you want to be judgemental as to my choosen road. Since it in no way affects you.

You are very proud of your adjustment to Thailand, I would suggest you delve into the tolerance aspect of this country. There could very well be much to learn there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was just about to charge at the OP but this post has calmed me down.

[Tarragona]

If I come here, raise a family, pay taxes, and buy a house/car/whatever, then this is my HOME and I have every right to have my voice heard in MY new country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I still don't see what you've done/are doing that is so productive and having an impact. If you're talking about trying to bring up a family and build a home based on decent values, fair enough, but I don't think that makes you different from many others here.

And I don't get how hobnobbing with the hi-so and movie stars is relevant to that.

I can see a lot of sense in the OP, but then when you try and apply it to your own experience you seem to lose your way

[chuchok]

Ok, simple question, so I can work out exactly where you are coming from. 

Would you date a girl from Dairy Queen yourself, even if it meant a loss of status for yourself in the eyes of certain Thais?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to butt in, but does this girl at Dairy Queen have big breasts? This is a very important fact that may have been overlooked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She's racked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It must be love then..

[Sir Burr]

Look, I'll be the first to admit that the girl at my local Dairy Queen is a total HOTTIE, and one of the cleaning girls in my building is also pretty adorable. However, you know as well as I do, that in Thai society, those girls are in a certain "class" and if you start dating them, you insert yourself right into that class with them.

Again, not saying that's right, just saying that's reality.

This is the part of Pudgies post that I just can't quite sit right with. It's of course true, and getting a wife from a nice well to do middle class will obviously serve you better status in certain parts of this narrow minded Thai society than the girl from Dairy Queen, but is that a status I need, opportuinties I want, as I'd have to give up my whole ethic code for it?

In fact if I did join the ranks of higher Thai society and pandered to their narrow views about the poorer people in this country I would feel ashamed, and that shame and lack of self respect is something I cannot swap for someone else respect.

I can imagine if I told my Mum who also works in shops, or my bus driving Dad that I really like a girl, but cannot date or marry her because she is a low class Thai from a poor background they would feel absolutely ashamed of me and I imagine felt they done a bad job bringing me up. In fact I can quite see my Mum imagining herself in the same class back in the UK as the Dairy Queen girl and consider me a real scumbag for considering myself better because I'm white and wealthier.

As you say your from the poor background as well, I have to ask, the people that considered you low class in the West are the same kind of people you choose to pander to here.

I'm not sure I could live with becoming those I hate because of my own selfish needs of acheiving status and using that as a tool to weild power. And I'm not sure how you have turned that way Pudgie, but it is a way I have seen many farangs turn over here.

I've lost count the amount of times that a farang has so proudly boasted of their wife being Chinese Thai rather than being prouder of other attributes (smart, funny etc.), her class or ethnicity seems to be the biggest draw for them and I know many of them would never have thought like that at home. But once they marry into a certain class they suddenly take on the same snobbish attitudes of it.

That something I can't live with, and I could never show such disrespect to another human being by considering her to low status to date because another person, a persons beliefs that I have always stood strong against has said so.

I have a basic rule in life, I only want to achieve status or respect from people who I respect also. In 1950s America, I would not have spat on a black girl to gain respect of the whites around me. A strong example, but one that does ring true when toned down to the 'dating' a low class Thai scenario. I could not change my (hopefully decent) moral code, to fit in with those that.

So after reading that Pudgie I have to ask you at what cost will you pay to achieve that status, how many people will you have to disrespect first? And considering a girl to lowly to marry because she works in a shop is a lack of respect.

One of this countrys problems is the lack of respect for the lower classes, is that somethin you wish to amplify? Is becoming part of the problem really moving Thailand forward in the way you hope it moves forward?

I wonder if all farangs only dated middle class Chinese Thai girls because the others are not worthy of us, what kind of example would that set to this country? Would the poorer parts of Thai society consider themselves segregated from not only the wealthier Thais but also by the foreign community as well? Is that an image we wish to promote in our quest for status and power? Is that the way you want to be?

If I was more eloquent, this is the post I would have written.

Pretty much sums it up for me. Nice one, Bkkmadness.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Sir Burr

[meom]

What you can do is change from just another nameless, faceless cubicle warrior into a man (or woman) of consequence.  You can MATTER here.  Doesn't that interest any of you?

I can only speak for myself and it doesn't interest me. I come to LOS to let my hair down and relax and have no interest whatsoever to make a difference.

Ok I do support a thai family (below your standing probably) and in a way that makes a difference at least to them.

[Glauka]

What you can do is change from just another nameless, faceless cubicle warrior into a man (or woman) of consequence.  You can MATTER here.  Doesn't that interest any of you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can only speak for myself and it doesn't interest me. I come to LOS to let my hair down and relax and have no interest whatsoever to make a difference.

Ok I do support a thai family (below your standing probably) and in a way that makes a difference at least to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well said!!

[Amararete]

The topic is a solid issue, but the OP puts the topic in a context where status-seeking, sexual politics are focal, and the real objectives of Falangs arriving in LOS are peripheral. If we learn anything from this thread, it comes from

Wilko “...if we want to do any good in Thailand perhaps we should try and get rid of the hierarchical nature of society here and all the corruption and nepotism that goes with it”

Pudgimelon “ ... As for doing good in Thailand, how do you expect to challenge the hierarchical nature of society and all the corruption and nepotism in this country from a barstool? That stuff only gets changed if WE take an active and positive role in OUR communities....”

OlRedEyes “ ...There are many of us here who have come to Thailand to escape the rat race, the social climbing thing. Most I'd say. We do not flaunt our MBA's etc, nor our past achievements. We have no desire to be big fish anymore...”

Pudgimelon “ ... Again I will repeat that I am not really concerned with "status" so much as the lost opportunities many of us suffer because we don't see ourselves as existing "within" Thai society and therefore miss out on a chance to really matter here...”

Camerata “...Some of us have put in a lot of effort to fit in with Thai society and show Thais we aren't like the stereotypes - and the effort is worthwhile. So when we see some tourist refuse to stand up for the national anthem in the cinema, we really cringe. But the fact is, many of the tourists and short-timers will never really care what the Thais think...”

Pudgimelon “ ... My comments are more directed at the people who come here with no real plan, sort of fall into a long-term stay and then just piss about like they own the place (without actually contributing anything productive). That kind of nonsense is a real shame...”

“... Likewise, here in Thailand, people seem content to complain about problems without actually noodling the concept that they could actually DO something about those problems...”

So, Pudgimelon, you belong at Don Muang Airport, handing out leaflets to the incoming Falangs, their "strategy for positive impact on "The Falang Situation in LOS": A socially conscious travel guide for the photog, the businessman, the non-immigrant-B TESL wannabe's, the whoremongers and punters, and those elite few from the big apple with a dynamic personality and good looks who may just see a bove the clouds in this kingdom if they do everything with a touch of class.

That way you do your part to fix the problems that motivated this thread, and you get to learn first-hand how futile it is to give people your version of the big picture, and the consequences of their separate ventures, when most of them have already lived enough to have acquired their own outlook on Thailand.

Did you ever stop in JFK and listen to the Hare Krishnas trying to reach out to you?

When you get to the point Thai Pauli reached, and you fathom the other end of the pool of Thai philosophy and cultural dynamics - the ones that drive the business world, and those that emanate the "Thai Way" of doing deals and managing affairs.... You may just discover that Thai civilization is beyond the reach of the West.

If we Falangs are ever going to make some kind of difference in Thailand, we have an enormous VOID to cross, from Western capitalism to asian nepotism. It is not the rule-book, but rather it is the emergent social contract that everyone is transacting in here, that is beyond the ken of most Falangs.

That is why your honored guests at Don Muang will look at you like you are from Mars, if they read your manifesto.

You want the punters to carry on with a conscience that they will only acquire after years of pondering the pool, a pool which you yourself have spent only a little time with.

What would Jesus do? "Verily, be in the world but not of it" And that would be my point. Wrong: we don't see ourselves as existing "within" Thai society.

Right: There are many of us here who have come to Thailand to escape the rat race, the social climbing thing.

Oh, and you flat out FCUKED UP not going for the Dairy Queen girlie. You just don't get it at all, man.

[ObladiOblada]

Pudgi, my sincere compliments on an excellent opening post.

In the mix of replies are some naysayers whom have a right to feel pissed (if they're assuming they were lumped in with the herd). But I didn't read that into it and I thought it was obvious by your original post, anyone raising an extended family here, trying hard at business etc, etc and moreover generally conducting themselves and others with respect, (despite whatever status) weren't lumped in.

For some, you never really stood a chance beyond the original post tho but I suspect you knew that going in (?). Some seemed to intentionally twist your words, take your meanings out of intended context, all in the cause of protecting and preserving their ever fading 'Farang in Thailand social/bizzaro norm'???

Perhaps you could've entitled it "a loss of respect" (instead of status) to more accurately make your point ?

The underlying aspect which rules any 'community' anywhere, is social/societal norms. For some within the 'Farang community' in Thailand, there is little in the way of import of western social norms (shed upon arrival at Don Muang Airport) and almost zero adaptation of traditional Thai social norms.

What's left for some then, is a sort of self created bizarro netherworld subculture of 'Farang in Thailand' societal norms, where one is encouraged by our fellow Farang peers to join right in, by bellying up and absolutely dumbing down. An absolute UTOPIA (for some) an absolute embarrassment for other Farangs and yes, a reflection on us all.

Instead of stepping off the plane and feeling rightly humbled by the respect initially given by our hosts, some Farangs quickly choose to squander this, or worse, actually use it to pompously act superior What a shame and embarrassment...

Some immediately sense and seize the opportunity to cast off any of those lingering 'pesky' old western social norms of respect, then completely ignore (or worse) blatantly sneer down at traditional Thai norms of respect and adopt fully to the path of least resistance- the dumbed down Farang in Thailand norm- for some. And yes, it reflects on us all living here.

Back to the beginning then, do, say, act, live, exactly as you want and want to receive in return. You can be humbled by, or squander respect given, "up to you".

It's not at all about status... It's about respect.

[Guest endure]

And some of us arrive at Don Muang and adopt the philosophy of that wise old western philosopher, Mrs Do-unto-others-as-you-would-be-done-by, knowing full well that Thai society at large will think whatever it chooses to think about farang and there's very little we can do about it. The only effect that we can have is on individual Thais that we interact with. And some of us heave a sigh of relief that as we left farangland we left behind an army of judgmental snot-nosed kids - well, most of them anyway

[ObladiOblada]

Some have hilariously (and desparately) evoked everything they can muster to the cause of protecting, preserving and justifying the fading Thailand Bizzaro Farang societal norms, (TFSN) from Hitler to Commies to Jesus, Hari Krishnas, Mrs Do-unto-others and even judgmental snot-nosed kids...

It's fair play to ask oneself the obvious- are you here for primarily ONE reason only? Trivial little matters like treating self and others with respect and all the rest of the blather are then moot and one can understand all the defensiveness... Say what you like but at least be honest.

[Gappui]

"Wilko “...if we want to do any good in Thailand perhaps we should try and get rid of the hierarchical nature of society here and all the corruption and nepotism that goes with it”

Pudgimelon “ ... As for doing good in Thailand, how do you expect to challenge the hierarchical nature of society and all the corruption and nepotism in this country from a barstool? That stuff only gets changed if WE take an active and positive role in OUR communities....”

An opinion from a Thai, this will and can never happen. Thai culture is a highly hierarchical culture (actually the most, as a well known professor used to argue). Thai culture needs this complex hierarchical system in order for the society to function properly. At least in this era, for the Thai culture as we know it. Like it or not, it's a reality in Thailand, and it won't change soon. If you plan to be here for a while, it's better to adjust rather than trying to change. In fact, trying to change can be interpreted as simply disrespecting Thai culture. It's like saying that people in Farangland have too much freedom of expression that it caused deviants, it should be curbed. The royal families should not be criticized.

Most farang cultures value social equality. Thais willingly accept that there are social classes, so the whole purpose of life for most Thais is to climb the social ladder until one is a "jao kon nai kon" (boss). This hierachical system is probably much more complex than one (esp. farangs) can see on the surface. It is so interwoven in daily activities that you learn by nature. I'm even "relearning it" after spending some years overseas. There are unspoken rules, exceptions etc, that one must learn to figure out who is "higher" than who. Several social factors contribute to one's social status in Thailand, and each one carry different weight/significance. I can't list them all, but I'll try. Let's start with some easy ones:

Age, title in the org. (esp. government's C), money/salary, car, house, spouse, family, education level, school (esp. private/public university), ethnicity, appearance, physical/athletic ability, gender, skills (esp. English, and now computer), gadgets (cell phones, computer), graduation year, country where one got degree (dek nok?), relationship to some "Big" guys .... what else ... there should be plenty more.

So my point is that being a farang might help you start with a couple of positive social factors: being white, being from abroad, English skill (that many Thais might want to practice with you or just to show off), supposedly possesing more money than an average Thai, supposedly being good at something (if you're hired by a company) ... That should give most farangs a much better start than an average Chula/Thammasat graduate (who should also get a better job than most grads), and become socially attractive many middle/upper class Thais who must feel like having farang friends are cool.

So yes, I concur that being a farang in Thailand can give you a headstart in Thailand. But as I mentioned, there are many other social factors that will raise or lower your status after your "farangness" starts to wear off. Yes, there probably will always be some Thais who think you are interested, but it depends on each person whether he/she will keep attracting the people of higher or lower status.

This is an opinion of a middle class person born and raised in Bangkok. I can't speak for the upcountry people.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Gappui

[Baal]

Karl Marx and Engels did all their best work at the pub, not only that I think the French Revolution, Hitler and quite a few others had movements that started in the

"Pub".

Not to mention more benign activities like writing Alice in Wonderland (Lewis) and The Hobbit (Tolkien), much of both were written in Oxford pubs.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many a pint in said mentioned pubs in Oxford!!

Pudgi - you should have stopped after post 1, however I admit I am enjoying the deeper hole you are digging yourself, keep posting.

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I dont think even the DUDE himself with 10 shovels could help Pudgy out of this one.

[Guest endure]

Some have hilariously (and desparately) evoked everything they can muster to the cause of protecting, preserving and justifying the fading Thailand Bizzaro Farang societal norms, (TFSN)   from Hitler to Commies to Jesus, Hari Krishnas, Mrs Do-unto-others and even judgmental snot-nosed kids... 

It's fair play to ask oneself the obvious- are you here for primarily ONE reason only? Trivial little matters like treating self and others with respect and all the rest of the blather are then moot and one can understand all the defensiveness...  Say what you like but at least be honest. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tell you what - you rewrite your post so it makes sense and I'll try and answer it.

[ThaiPauly]

With all due respect, it sounds to me like you want to be a big fish in a small pond.

There are many of us here who have come to Thailand to escape the rat race, the social climbing thing. Most I'd say. We do not flaunt our MBA's etc, nor our past achievements. We have no desire to be big fish anymore, in any pond.

Status is not on our agenda. At all. Why come here seeking status. Coz it's easy to achieve? No real challenge is it...

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Are you addressing my post Sir?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not at all ThaiPauly. I was commenting on the OP. Probably should just have shut up anyways.

The way this thread is going, I should say "Yea, and what you gonna do about it!!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh well thats alright then otherwise I would meet you outside Foodland on Sukumvit Soi 5

[Pudgimelon]

So yes, I concur that being a farang in Thailand can give you a headstart in Thailand. But as I mentioned, there are many other social factors that will raise or lower your status after your "farangness" starts to wear off. Yes, there probably will always be some Thais who think you are interested, but it depends on each person whether he/she will keep attracting the people of higher or lower status.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps you could've entitled it "a loss of respect" (instead of status) to more accurately make your point ?

Thanks guys for a couple of posts that attempt to get this thread back on topic.

Being American, I grew up in a culture where we idolized our immigrant forebearers (we don't idolize CURRENT immigrants, and we never have, but that's not the point).

The immigrant generations of the 1930's contributed tremendously to the growth and prosperity of the American nation. Either by through their own hard labor or through the opportunities they gave to their children who took FULL advantage of them to soar to the heights of industry and finance.

So I guess I'm judging our ("our" meaning Westerners) current immigration to Thailand against the ideal of the 1930's American immigrant. Those people came to America to provide a better life for themselves and their families, just as many farang come to Thailand for the same reasons.

But when you look at us as a whole--as an ethnic minority within Thailand--we fall far short of that ideal standard. Even if you compare us to the immigrant generations of Chinese who came to Thailand, we fall far short.

As another poster mentioned, we have almost no rights here. Why not? Why does that have to be the status quo? I believe the Thai Chinese managed to acquire citizenship and property rights, why not us?

When the Chinese came here they busied themselves setting up business associations and support networks. We don't.

We're a loose collection of individuals all looking out for our own best interests and not concerning ourselves with whether or not our actions impact other people. The punter who bails out halfway through a school semester makes it harder for other teachers to get treated fairly. The moron who launches a tirade at the visa office makes it tougher on the rest of us to get treated with respect when we present our cases.

Etc.....

All I'm saying is that in the near future there will be an entire generation of Thai-farang. We all know that Thailand is a hierarchacial(sp) society, so what are we doing to ensure the prosperity of OUR ethnic group? What are we doing to ensure that they either have a high position in that hierarchy or that the hierarchy is torn down and replaced with a more "Western" mentality about "class"?