The Loss Of Status

[Pudgimelon]

I doubt a woman of such substance is living in a small room in a second rate condominium in a poor area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its not possible for people to have more than one residence?

Its not possible for people to have more than one job?

We rented the condo because its convenient to all of my jobs and its nice to be able to crash there after a late work night.

Right now, if I were to drive from our house, I'd have to go through FOUR separate construction zones on two of the most notoriously jammed-up roads in Bangkok. I used to be able to get from my house to work in less than 25 minutes, now it takes one and a half hours. Times two that's three hours a day commute time, times 30 days (I work 7 days a week) that's 90 hours of commuting every month. Using a base opportunity cost of 500 baht an hour for free time, I'm saving 45,000 a month by not commuting from my house (not including gas and wear-'n-tear on my car).

Contrary to YOUR assumptions, my wife is not snobbish, nor am I. The condo we live in is quite poor, but it suits our needs and its relatively safe, so why shouldn't we live there?

You don't know me, so you're making baseless assumptions about the kids I teach all because I used the word "condo", which you equate with some richy-rich place.

I "charge" the kids a nominal fee because they are proud to pay for their own lessons and I believe that just because someone is poor doesn't mean they MUST recieve charity. I know this from personal experience. When I was down on my luck I never wanted a hand-out and I would have been insulted by the offer. But if someone gave me a job and helped me earn my own way, I was forever grateful. There is such a thing as self-pride and I personally believe welfare is a horrible destroyer of self-esteem.

You may see things differently, but I believe in contributing to Thai society in ways that help people help themselves.

Aaargh.... there I go again. Responding to people making off-topic flames of me.... must break habit....

Here, let me dove-tail this post back on topic.

My reply to SiameseKitty was a simple agreement with what he said, plus a brief example of one of the many things I do to contribute to my community as well.

My main argument is that we should all start participating more in Thai society with the long-term goal of bettering ourselves (as an ethnic minority) and the lives of our children.

How you participate and how you contribute is up to you. If you think writing a check to a charity is enough, fine. But personally I like to contribute in ways that build the self-reliance, self-esteem, and self-awareness of those I help.

I could run out tomorrow and buy playground equipment for the condo, but would the kids really appreciate it? I think they will appreciate the equipment much more when they know that it is THEIR playground that THEY paid for through THEIR work in my lessons.

If you wish to continue to find fault in that,..... whatever....

Edited December 4, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[siamesekitty]

Even if he is a snob (which he may or may not be, I don't like making assumptions about people I've never met), I still agree with the statements made in the original post.

[dog412]

for my perspective, i am exactly the kind of person being criticized by the oringinal op's post. to be honest, i respect the thai's for their ability to leave me alone , and in those rare situations where i do get involved, i try to do my best. just as most of us do.

[Mighty Mouse]

From here on out, I'm going to just ignore the people who misinterpret (intentionally, most likely) my choice of words.

Get out of the kitchen if the heat is too much for you.

Quite obviously you only want to preach your self-centred, promotional ways to those on this forum who think you are a tin god.

Any discussion, whether it be conversational or written, will, to some extent, stray off the beaten path. This is what makes conversation/discussions interesting. Your own posts stray all over the place.

If it is all too much for you, then don't start topics.

Seriously, we really should start working together collectively to improve the "respect" our community gets within Thailand.  If we intend to stay here long-term, then we should stop behaving as separate groups and start behaving as one community.

Of course, Americans should be put in charge of that group since we're the only ones with an ounce of common sense!   

The smilie icons are a poor attempt by you to deflect your contemptable attitude towards other races. This contempt is quite obvious from what you write in some of your preceding posts.

The post from Jeeves hits the nail right on the head. He, like a growing number of other posters in this thread, can clearly see through your paper thin facade.

I could run out tomorrow and buy playground equipment for the condo, but would the kids really appreciate it? I think they will appreciate the equipment much more when they know that it is THEIR playground that THEY paid for through THEIR work in my lessons

Then do the kids a favour and go out and buy it, or would you prefer that they keep paying you 20 baht per English lesson so that sometime in the next 15 years you will have accumulated enough of their money to be able to do so.

I don't see too many 20 year olds playing on see-saws and slippery dips.

In your English lessons, please teach these kids the meaning of the words "braggart," "ego-tripping," "skite," "grand-stander." (to name a few)

Then hand them a photograph of yourself so that they can associate these words with a person who truly represents these meanings.

[Belfastboy]

....its all getting pretty heavy here..eh....

its christmas guys....chill out....have a whiskey on me...

[wilko]

One thing I think I do have in common with Mr P...

It's so hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way....

[Jeeves]

I could run out tomorrow and buy playground equipment for the condo, but would the kids really appreciate it? I think they will appreciate the equipment much more when they know that it is THEIR playground that THEY paid for through THEIR work in my lessons

Then do the kids a favour and go out and buy it, or would you prefer that they keep paying you 20 baht per English lesson so that sometime in the next 15 years you will have accumulated enough of their money to be able to do so.

I don't see too many 20 year olds playing on see-saws and slippery dips.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[wilko]

Actually there may be an interesting cultural distinction here. In western society there is an inherent dislike of anyone who aspires to claims to have or admires such things as “class” “status” or any hierarchical interpretation of society. These stratifications may exist but we don’t approve. Ostentatious shows of wealth, flaunting of power, connections or influence is regarded as gross or a sign that one is not capable of fully appreciating or handling one’s own (usually newfound) status. We strive to achieve relatively egalitarian, democratic societies and those who claim to have more than their fair share of wealth or power tend to be regarded with suspicion.

In the east however, this is not so much the case….here a wealthy man is respected for his wealth and as such is expected to have power and influence which in turn is expected to generate wealth which in turn….etc. etc.

There is a much greater respect for power and authority here; an acceptance if you like…so if one is to succeed in Thailand it would seem that it is advisable and acceptable to hob-knob with the rich and famous to a far greater extent that would be acceptable in most western societies.

I do believe that USA has a greater acceptance of this than other western cultures so this might explain Mr P’s ready acceptance of this. But the sort of trumpet blowing that he has engaged in in this posting would certainly not ingratiate him to people any of the gatherings I go to

The Chinese who came here in the C19th, achieved and combination of integration and success; they actually changed they nature of business in Thai culture and although remaining a rather closed shop succeeded in benefiting both themselves and society.

I watch bosses in industry dealing with their subordinates and it is quite shocking at first. Dismissive hand waving, lack of eye contact, no discussion – I am what I am because I am what I am…many companies mainly foreign owned are trying their damnedest to get rid off this kind of culture.

So really as Westerners living/working here what we should be doing is work with the Thais to bring about a change in the way society views itself…less as a system of hierarchies and more as one of an egalitarian nature. Patronising the local school kids and kowtowing to local dignitaries is not the way this just reinforces an entrenched way of life. You can’t work against Thai culture but you can work with it and it will change, but a general acceptance of the way society is run here is unhelpful to all.

[siamesekitty]

Actually there may be an interesting cultural distinction here.

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You can’t work against Thai culture but you can work with it and it will change, but a general acceptance of the way society is run here is unhelpful to all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some good points there. To add to that, I think it'd also be more helpful if the aforementioned Westerners do not engage in the type of behaviour that disgusts the Thais and influences their general perception of Westerners. Kind of hard to help shape Thai culture in a constructive way if they don't feel you deserve their respect.

[Jeeves]

You don't know me, so you're making baseless assumptions about the kids I teach all because I used the word "condo", which you equate with some richy-rich place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Judging by the way you claim your wife breaks off appointments with the Deputy Prime Minister of Thailand to go to Phi Phi with you, and the high ranking politicians and movie stars that you now mix with, is it not natural to assume that you live in a half decent apartment ?

True, I don't know you, I don't mix in the same circles as you.

Movie stars, high ranking Politicians, society weddings and appointments with the deputy PM are not on my schedule this week.

Most English teachers I have ever met struggle to make it through till the next payday, let alone mix with the elite of Thailand.

Good luck to you Pudgi, I am sure you are an inspiration to all other English teachers. I will look out for your picture in the Thai magazines that cover society weddings and other gatherings of the elite.

[wilko]

Some good points there. To add to that, I think it'd also be more helpful if the aforementioned Westerners do not engage in the type of behaviour that disgusts the Thais and influences their general perception of Westerners. Kind of hard to help shape Thai culture in a constructive way if they don't feel you deserve their respect.

Thailand is seen as a playground by many westerners...and it's a source of income for the country...this is just one aspect of Thai/West interfacing. Probably more important is Western business in Thailand. Many companies have factories and offices here and I think though I don't have the stats that this will have more effect on Thailand than sobering up the farang sex tourists.

The sex industry in Thailand is old, even quasi-respectable, but in the end it exists because of the great gap between have/havenots and rich and poor that exists here. The farangs who come here are usually amazed to find hat they can enjoy the company of a woman (or man) considerably more attrative in the physical sense than anyone they would find at home. They seldom use the love hotels or karaoke venues these are the haunts of "respectable" Thai men...is their status lost when they indulge themselves?

Edited December 5, 2005 by wilko

[siamesekitty]

Thai men are a bit more discreet in their activities.

and a Thai man doesn't:

- give long, sloppy french-kisses while onlookers stare in shock

- running his hand up and down his lady's bum (which happens to be at eye level for seated passengers on the skytrain)

- stick his face in his woman's cleavage and shakes his head in it while making funny bubbly noises (true story!)

[JRinger]

Thai men are a bit more discreet in their activities. 

and a Thai man doesn't:

- give long, sloppy french-kisses while onlookers stare in shock

- running his hand up and down his lady's bum (which happens to be at eye level for seated passengers on the skytrain)

- stick his face in his woman's cleavage and shakes his head in it while making funny bubbly noises (true story!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.....from my understanding, Thai men don't do any of the above in Private either...

[wilko]

Thai men are a bit more discreet in their activities. 

and a Thai man doesn't:

- give long, sloppy french-kisses while onlookers stare in shock

- running his hand up and down his lady's bum (which happens to be at eye level for seated passengers on the skytrain)

- stick his face in his woman's cleavage and shakes his head in it while making funny bubbly noises (true story!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true...this is of course again partly a cultural thing. In some western coutries people sit for hours on park benches snogging and petting....bubbly noises you say?

[Pudgimelon]

Most English teachers I have ever met struggle to make it through till the next  payday, let alone mix with the elite of Thailand. 

Good luck to you Pudgi, I am sure you are an inspiration to all other English teachers. I will look out for your picture in the Thai magazines that cover society weddings and other gatherings of the elite. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How seriously do most English teachers take their job? Come on, be honest. You know that quite a few fly-by-nights can barely be arsed to show up at all (and then its a good day if they're sober too), is it any wonder why they have such difficulty making their paycheck last a whole month?

When I came here, I looked to the example set by my own immigrant forebearers and by the current crop of Hmong and Mexican immigrants in the States. They worked their asses off in order to better themselves and provide more opportunities for their children.

And it worked. Statistics show that the second-generation children of immigrants do better (on the whole) than native children. Their parents instilled in them a drive and work ethic that leads to greater success.

I realize some people come here looking for a playground, but that's their option, not mine, and I shouldn't be criticized simply because I happen to find this country brimming with opportunities.

If I'm going to immigrate here then I'm going to bust my butt making d_mn sure that I can provide a decent quality of life for my kids (when my wife and I have them). I take teaching English very seriously and provide a high quality experience for the children I teach. Professional development is non-existent in this country, but that hasn't prevented me from going online and training myself to be a better classroom manager. I used to work 4 jobs, but now I'm happily down to 2.5 jobs, but I still work 7 days a week, often up to 12 or 15 hours a day.

I'm not bragging about that, I'm just pointing out that opportunities weren't handed to me on a silver platter, I've worked d_mn hard to achieve some degree of success here and I've still got a long way to go.

My point all along in this thread is that we have access to these opportunities because we are farang, but whether or not we choose to take them is up to us.

In my time here I've seen many teachers come and go from the schools I've taught at. Quite a few of them were very dedicated, talented individuals and I learned a great deal from them. However, even among those teachers there was a "lack of permenance" in their outlook. They certainly gave 110% in the classroom and tried their best to adapt and improve their teaching method, but when asked about long-term goals, they got a bit murky and hazy on that topic.

Like it or not, we farang have been lumped into one ethnic group by Thais. The actions of one does affect the whole. That may not be fair, and it may be something we all want changed about Thai society, but right now, it IS the reality of our circumstance.

And right now, we are a bickering, squabbling, disparate group of individuals who COLLECTIVELY lack goals and a well-defined vision of our future in Thailand.

Eventually (maybe not during our lifetimes, but eventually) Thailand will "grow up" and stop being a hedonistic playground for repressed Westerners. When that day comes, will "we" (meaning our ethnic group) still be sitting on the sidelines??

Will we have squandered the opportunities given to us NOW?

Will our children suffer from lower status based on the stereotypes created today and because most of us couldn't be arsed to change them (or the Thai penchant for creating them)?

Will we (again, "we" meaning our ethnic group) forever remain "guests" in our own homes?

How often is an immigrating ethnic group accorded high status by default?? I can't think of any examples from American history and I know that Thai history is full of examples of how they discriminated against Chinese, Laos, Hmong, Mon, Burmese and Malay immigrants.

And yet here we are. Immigrants to this wonderful little country and we are given the rare opportunity to start out at the top (if we so choose).

And what do most of us do with this rare gift? We piss it away as quickly as we can, and actively seek out the fringe of society.

Many people eventually put aside their wild days and do settle down here, and I applaud them for it. However, you may be able to personally put aside your "wild days" and find a new degree of respect in your community, but collectively "our" wild days are remember by Thai culture. Will your children thank you for eroding their ethnic group's "esteem" in this country?

When you see an old farang and a young Thai woman holding hands as they walk down the street, do you automatically think "loving dad and his daughter?" No, you don't.

That is the hidden cost of those "wild days", for all of us.

[Maigo6]

When you see an old farang and a young Thai woman holding hands as they walk down the street, do you automatically think "loving dad and his daughter?"  No, you don't. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think, " lucky old sod ".

[Incalclickable]

....bubbly noises you say?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...that would be the sound of cheap implants.

[Pudgimelon]

I think, " lucky old sod ".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for proving my point.

[ObladiOblada]

Let’s just cut to the chase here shall we Gents?

Pudgi’s opening post wasn’t talking about STATUS as anyone with half a brain could recognize. He was talking about Farang conduct, respect and overall image in Thailand as it reflects on us all. And about what we might do with the advantage of carte blanche respect initially given by our Thai hosts to everyone who gets off the plane.

He wasn’t including every Farang or anyone treating others and self with respect.

Some should be forgiven for getting bent out of shape. They might have a different agenda and lifestyle to preserve and protect afterall and will twist words and meanings rather than state EXACTLY why they don’t give a &lt;deleted&gt; what Pudgi, you, me, or the Thai’s think of them.

So, if *some* were just completely honest it might sound something like this:

I came to Thailand primarily for one reason and one reason only - to get laid - and perhaps even bag a ‘little’ gal of my very own (read: mold/own/control). Doesn’t matter she likely wouldn’t even give me the time of day were we in my own country (I just couldn’t cut it back there). But heck, that’s exactly what drove me here and now, woohoo! I fit right in!!

It’s getting a bit worrying lately though, besides thorns like the Pudgi’s of the world, if things keep progressing as they are, then the gals here will be out of my reach or (heaven forbid) develop higher expectations and I won’t stand a chance (just like those annoying western gals back home). Ah well, for now at least, time is still on my side before the Thai gals catch up (sardonic grin, wringing hands, counting baht).

Meantime, I don’t give a rats arse about Pudgi’s plea for me to think about (ughh) bettering myself, elevating the Farang image here (barf) nor about Thai culture, code of self conduct, or all that face mumbo jumbo (it’s all just a bit of necessary nuisance I have to put up with on my way to/from the bar:).

Nor do I give a crap about how I act, or how anyone perceives me, or how my conduct may offend others or affect perceptions of Farangs here in general, it’s my business alone and anyone who has a problem with that can &lt;deleted&gt; off”

Now, IF you’re in the above group, it’s completely understandable (and obvious) why you’d feel threatened or annoyed by Pudgi’s opening post... Just be honest and upfront about WHY

IF you DON’T fit in the above group, then this doesn’t apply to you. Hope that’s plain enough?

[Maigo6]

I think, " lucky old sod ".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for proving my point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't take yourself so serious, I doubt anyone else believes your wild claims of hanging out with the elite, you're just another English Teacher, not a member of the high society club. And if we are talking about peoples perceptions, how do you think your high class wife, who is influential enough to break off meetings with the deputy prime minister is percieved amongst the leaders of this country, she has not exactly struck gold in her choice of partner has she, she married an English teacher, and like it or not, that ain't no great catch, not for a woman of her obvious social standing. If she is not too bothered about how other Thais see her, why are you so concerned abot how other Thais look at people you don't even know?

You should not worry too much about how Thai people look at other farangs, but how the deputy prime minister and the movie stars that you hang around with look at you and your wife, why was your wedding not in the newspapers as a social event, a society wedding, I am sure all the stars and ministers were present, post some pics, I must have missed them in the Bkk post.

[Maigo6]

ObladiOblada is Pudgimelons other nickname.

[Pudgimelon]

Now, IF you’re in the above group, it’s completely understandable (and obvious) why you’d feel threatened or annoyed by Pudgi’s opening post... Just be honest and upfront about WHY 

IF you DON’T fit in the above group, then this doesn’t apply to you. Hope that’s plain enough?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on.

[cdnvic]

ObladiOblada is Pudgimelons other nickname.   

We can tell these things. Both IPs and cookies give it away. The choice for mods is how long to wait for the offender to admit to it and get off easy, or do you just ban both of them?

cv

[Pudgimelon]

Don't take yourself so serious, I doubt anyone else believes your wild claims of hanging out with the elite, you're just another English Teacher, not a member of the high society club. And if we are talking about peoples perceptions, how do you think your high class wife, who is influential enough to break off meetings with the deputy prime minister is percieved amongst the leaders of this country, she has not exactly struck gold in her choice of partner has she, she married an English teacher, and like it or not, that ain't no great catch, not for a woman of her obvious social standing. If she is not too bothered about how other Thais see her, why are you so concerned abot how other Thais look at people you don't even know?

You should not worry too much about how Thai people look at other farangs, but how the deputy prime minister and the movie stars that you hang around with look at you and your wife, why was your wedding not in the newspapers as a social event, a society wedding, I am sure all the stars and ministers were present, post some pics, I must have missed them in the Bkk post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If your best counter-argument against what I am saying is to call me a liar, then you don't have much to stand on.

How about deconstructing the ISSUES I've raised or perhaps countering some of the arguments I've made with ideas of your own? Many other posters have managed to do this, why can't you?

What would you like me to do? Prove what I am saying? Why should I? You haven't proved that I'm lying, so why should I make any effort to dispute your baseless assumptions and stereotypes?

Did you read that recent article in the Bangkok Post about cram school teachers commanding high fees and running multi-million baht (a month!) businesses??? And they're THAI!

Why is it so hard for you to believe that movie stars or politicians purchase extra-tuition tutoring for their children too? After all, SOMEBODY has to teach them, why not me?

[Maigo6]

ObladiOblada is Pudgimelons other nickname.    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We can tell these things. Both IPs and cookies give it away. The choice for mods is how long to wait for the offender to admit to it and get off easy, or do you just ban both of them?

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha.....................

[wilko]

I used to work 4 jobs, but now I'm happily down to 2.5 jobs, but I still work 7 days a week, often up to 12 or 15 hours a day.

Ah… the good old protestant work ethic....I don't think Mr P. realises how narrow and primitively he has set his parameters. I can never understand why people who work so hard and then try to persuade others that that is a good idea….they’re usually being conned or conning themselves…consider the llillies of the field and all that……

You are making enormous cultural and perceptive assumptions. This is the “My cat has 4 legs” syndrome…you are basing your assumptions and perception of immigrants/visitors to Thailand on want you personally have seen, and assumptions you make about American immigration. This is usually a case of “can’t see the wood for the trees”. How many of these farang that you disapprove so much of are holidaymakers and how many are residing here? How do you know that they are “disrespected?” Just a few people you speak to. Maybe most Thai people don’t give a monkey’s because they bring money to the country.

More and more your writing displays a theme. That of not liking criticism by those don’t do or think as you do.

[Maigo6]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that movie stars or politicians purchase extra-tuition tutoring for their children too?  After all, SOMEBODY has to teach them, why not me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So when you say that you are hanging around with the Ministers and movie stars, in fact you are just teaching their kids, ok.

Sorry, I was thrown off track by your statement about your wife breaking off a meeting with the Deputy Prime minister, kinda made me think you was just more involved with the rich and powerful than just being a tutor for their offspring.

So apart from being just another English teacher in Thailand, where is your so called social standing coming from ?

[autonomous_unit]

I now think I understand Pugimelon's assertions better in the last few messages and see that the class topic is a tangent. Rather, I disagree with his assertion because of a few more simple reasons...

First is that he essentially calls for farangs to form up into a white ethnicity for collective power. In my politics, the last thing I want to do is form up on racial lines and try lose my identity to some collective. I demand to be treated as an individual, and I am not interested in trying to carry along others just because they happen to share my skin color or accent; I wouldn't feel right doing that in the US and I don't feel right doing that here either. On a more practical note, I don't think you can change the embarassing behavior of some farang anymore than you can change the embarassing behavior of some of my countrymen (or a respectable Thai can change the embarrasing behavior of some of his countrymen). It's not that anyone is arguing that farang shouldn't try to be good people... we just acknowledge that there is more than one definition of good, and I think many of us are rejecting the notion that there is (or should be) a unified farang goal or movement.

Second, I think this notion of immigrants "siezing" or "squandering" an opportunity is distorted by a romantic view of the past. Chinese immigrants to Thailand did not all become successful and welcomed Thai citizens in their own lifetimes. The toil of generations is ignored, as is the likely racial tensions that occurred between those immigrants and the Thai populace. Time is the great equalizer in these cases of cultural mixing. Likewise, as I tried to point out before, the many waves of immigrants to the US did not universally enjoy success nor are they universally revered in later generations. E.g. for every captain of the meat-packing industry in the US mid-west, there are countless nameless immigrant ancestors who left their descendents on equal footing with the rest of the workers just barely making a living... it is a biased memory that creates these romantic heroes.

I think the determinable future is that farangs will be outsiders in Thailand. Our offspring may or may not be treated as Thais, depending on how well they assimilate the Thai culture versus their farang cultural inheritence. hel_l, my wife who was born and raised a Thai is no longer completely integrated, because she has been "infected" with western thinking from her husband and her overseas schooling. People at work try to remind her to be patient with the Thai way, but they also depend on her to be bold where they would not dare. Unfortunately, our offspring will also be categorized much more by their appearance than they would in many western countries where racial mixing is more complex and people really are more "color blind." I think this will be defused when the farang bloodlines are diluted to hide their "farangness" or when there are so many different mixtures present that people stop paying attention.

I think the short-term question of how we can be good citizens has already been beaten to death here, e.g. how to make a difference on a human scale in the short term. In the longer term, I think the only viable approach is to try to erase (or at least weaken) the significance of race and culture by innoculation; continued exposure of farangs will eventually make our presence less alien to the Thai culture, and people will go back to evaluating each other on a more individual basis.

To think we can intentionally raise or lower the status of "all white people" seems as foolish as thinking we can control the weather 20 years hence. Sure, our actions have consequences, but they are too complex to predict and harness.

By the way, at risk of being off topic, the comments above about Thai vs. US vs. UK and Western European culture seem a bit off to me. The US definitely does not accept class distinctions more readily than the UK, from what little I know of it. The main "status" thing you can fault the US with is vulgar materialism and consumption. People flaunt money, but class has little to do with it. This, I think, is due to the frontier history where many (most?) of the wealthy are the "new rich". The US is actually very much a place of individualism and meritocracy, though people can obviously argue over who defines merit, etc. I remember hearing statistics that most millionaires in the US are fleeting one-generation affairs where a "blue collar" person makes good and then has kids who squander it all away, leaving their kids back where the grandparents started. Wealth is not so institutional there.This is the antithesis of class-based privelege, and this clash is what distracted me in my earlier post on the topic.

[Neeranam]

Pudgimelon,

Accept the things you can't change, or you'll go crazy!

'Other people' fall into the category of things I can't change.

It is annoying the way that I am percieved by some Thais due to what they see on the telly or in the tourist areas, but I can only change the way I react to this.

You seem to happy with what you have, good - you're wasting your time if you think some will change to your ideas and principles.

[Pudgimelon]

You are making enormous cultural and perceptive assumptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Plenty of assumptions have been directed back at me as well, so I hardly think I'm alone in that regard.

I've been criticized for "buying into" the Thai hierarchy system and all the assumptions that IT makes about people (based on status), but then those same people say that I can't possibly be telling the truth about my experiences because "I'm just an English teacher".

Aren't they making caste assumptions when they say that?

Personally, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt when I first meet them. I'm not Thai and I don't buy into their way of thinking about people. My comments about the "assumptions" that people make are not an endorsement of those assumptions, I'm merely reporting the fact that they do exist.

When are you going to see the forest, individual trees and everything else as part of a whole? The Thais certainly look at us that way, and like it or not, THEY do make assumptions about us based on the actions of each individual in that whole.

When a large minority of that group spends most of its time "holiday making" (even when they are semi-permanent residents), then that reflects poorly on the whole.

I'm not making a personal value judgment or assumption when I say that, rather I'm just report the FACT that it DOES happen to us. Many Thais aren't going to look at a farang and say, "Oh, he's atypical or he's just a partying vacationer", they're just going to look at that farang and say, "He's a farang, and that's how THEY behave."