PM Yingluck Announces 2012 Flood Management Master Plan

[The Snark]

The flood control in the Los Angeles area exemplifies long range planning and managment. In fact of the matter, Bangkok could easily duplicate their entire system, part of which is The Kings well thought out 'Monkey Cheeks' program. However, a few things must be implimented. That exemplary flood control system has planning and maintenence worked out for decades to come and the various agencies involved such as the L.A. County Public Works and the Coastal Commission run it with an iron fist. Encroachment is rapidly and harshly dealth with. Development requires long range planning exhaustively detailed.

Many people think 'Floods in LA? It's a desert!'. But when the fit hits the shan there, it does it in style. Decade dry stream beds become flash floods in an hour. Vast stretches of what appear to be wasteland turn into effective catchment basins and so on. Thailand essentially has only two choices in this matter. Follow the recommendations of His Majesty to the letter, or resign themselves to worse and more devastating floods. Interim measures, stop gaps, short term planning and slush fund mega projects will inevitably fail. Experts from around the world have clearly spoken, inclusive of the King.

Edited January 21, 2012 by The Snark

[Baerboxer]

I am confused they want to get the water into the sea as fast as possible. To accomplish this they are going to build dykes. Seems kind of counter productive to me.

I noticed not a word about clearing out the existing channels and keeping them clear or common sense when it comes to letting water out of a dam in the face of a rainy season.

This plan sounds as good as the 100 mile tunnel ten miles down.

There was nothing wrong with the tunnel at all.

It has already been done in similar conditions and to completely fit it to Thailand, it was designed by some of the world's leading experts in this technology. It was such a viable plan that, after reviewing it in depth (pun intended), the World Bank's engineers rated the Thai tunnel plan as excellent. They then put their money where their mouth is and offered USD 1 + billion IFC financing.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but the tunnel is the way to go. However, the Thai government has decided they should do the flood protection project themselves, although they are "borrowing" the electricity generating idea. One thing is for sure. The World Bank financed proposal would have been completely transparent. You can draw your own conclusions on this.

Apologies but I seem to have missed the World Bank report and anouncement on this. Could you kindly provide the link?

[Khonper]

I am confused they want to get the water into the sea as fast as possible. To accomplish this they are going to build dykes. Seems kind of counter productive to me.

I noticed not a word about clearing out the existing channels and keeping them clear or common sense when it comes to letting water out of a dam in the face of a rainy season.

This plan sounds as good as the 100 mile tunnel ten miles down.

There was nothing wrong with the tunnel at all.

It has already been done in similar conditions and to completely fit it to Thailand,

Really.?......show me a 100 mile long tunnel, 10 miles down that has been built anywhere in the world...

Where did you get that "10miles down" information from? Nothing is mentioned about that, just silly nonsense

[rayw]

Oh dear only mention of putting up flood protection around industrial areas!!! How about people areas too mm ??. It is all about bloody money not about peoples' welfare and until we change this right wing totally unacceptable crap attitude nothing will get any better for peoples' lives. This recent flood has been a social disaster with ordianry folk with little if any wealth losing what little they did have and let us not forget it cost over 600 lives too. The industrial loss is insignificant in comparison and let none of us forget that. Almostg all of it though could have been avoided with planning years ago as I understand it the potential problem was known about ages ago but nothing was done to help prevent it for of course monetary reasons !!!!.

So unless they are going to spend the billions they should have spent back in Thaksin's days (unfortunately instead of doing just that he had other more personal uses for the billions of Baht as we all now know) and before, then for goodness sake have the intelligence to do the following NOW :-

NOT allow the building of new villages in potential flooding areas just because local developers can make a big profit and probably pass over some back handers.

NOT rely on single or way too few supermarket distribution points, and decentralise by building more food and supply point warehouses in numerous regions throughout Thailand, in areas that do not flood and have easy and safe reliable accessibility for transport.

NOT build any more industiral estates in potential flooding areas and once agbain decentralise a lot of the production factories to avoid this silly unnecessary vunerability we have now seen materialise.

NOT CONTINUE TO DO NOTHING as the Thai Government should NOW start building the necessary huge number of massive drainage ducts to get flood waters diverted away from populated areas and quickly away to the ocean to avoid expensive flooding. This IS a monsoon region so flood potential heavy rains WILL happen again. Money would then be much better spent rahter than lining corrupt officials pockets and it would save the nation and it's people a fortune in the long run AND make folks lives and possessions safer.

I mean come on now, so much is still missing from our supermarket shelves many weeks after the floods have gone? All due to trying to save (yes once again that ugly word) bloody money rather than ensuring the public get a good reliable and essential service, and, yes I have to say it, maybe lower their obscene and unacceptable levels of corporate profits with no care for the consummers welfare. Only thing I am pleased about is this must have hit the supermarkets' excessive profits hard and they truly deserve it in the circumstances due to their planning incompetence and/or greed driven penny pinching ways. If I hear it right then it seems that Tescos have one basic central distribution warehouse and rather foolishly built in a potential flood area (please correct me if I am wrong) that indeed as we know recently flooded badly, otherwie we would have not had such a serious supply problem in Tesco stores across the nation. This is pure stupidity in an effort to make more over the top and greedy excessive profits by saving on additional but in my mind necessary additional warehouse costs, so as usual with no care for the community and the enormous cost on millions of ordinary Thai folks lives. Jeez not only floods, what happens if they have say a major fire in their single central distribution warehouse, with no other warehouse distribution centres anywhere alse in the nation as a fall back? Bloody stupid bad Thai planning which sadly seems so prevalent here and so inexcusably crass ignorant.

Might help if Thailand stopped being so blinkered and isolationist and allowed many more falangs to be employed here in the many areas where they clearly lack the needed expertise (intelligent and logical business planning being one of them). Even in my home country of the UK (and even they are a sad money rules rip off nation these days) we have sensibly always used foreign expertise labour where we know we are lacking in that area of knowledge and skills, e.g. we used a lot of USA technicians and programmers when the IT industry was in its infancy as we needed their knowledge and input of course, and let is remember the USA after WWII used many German scientists for their space and missiles program. It is bloody obvious that Thailand needs to stop thinking that they know it all and can do best on their own, that is such a silly child like philosophy and as we all see it is far from the truth. This crazy insane attitude holds progress back here and causes expensive problems like we have just seen with the floods and mainly caused by the total lack of any sensible and knowledgable planning over the past 10 or 15 years.

Thailand along with many other countries needs to stop thinking just MONEY and start thinking PEOPLE if we all want to see a better nation and world. I say this not to knock Thailand at all, as I truly love the country and chose it to spend my retirement years here, I just want to see it a better fairer nation for all its people with their welfare being paramount and not how much bent money can be put in the pockets of the few elite crooks who totally wrongly seem to get into positions of power. CARE not GREED is what is needed across the world, idealistic yes, but perhaps we all need to at least strive for such desireable ideals as it will move us in a much better direction for sure. Current extreme levels of right wing Capitalism are uinsustainable as we are all now clearly starting to see. We reqally desperately need a big move to morally sound democratic centre based politics that embraces all that is good from both moderate Capitalism and Socialism and rejects all their corrupt and socially destructive excesses which I think most folk have had enough of.

Sorry for long post but needed to get a lot of my chest that I felt needed saying. Not that any of the above if implemented will have much effect on my life it still I feel matters. Anyway now as I worked hard for it all my life I must get back to a restful and happy retirement here in LOS.

[tombkk]

HOW are they going to "speed the water to the sea"?

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

By increasing the capacity of the rivers and canals, I'd say. Gravity will do the rest.

[Roj]

Pity those living in the designated water retention areas. If the government has decided to permanently blight peoples lives they need to start putting money aside to purchase the properties of affected homeowners who want out of Waterworld

[whybother]

Where did you get that "10miles down" information from? Nothing is mentioned about that, just silly nonsense

Suchatchavee stated that the proposed tunnel, stretching 100 kilometers with a diameter of 24 meters and a depth of ten kilometers, would be built under the Outer Ring Road in eastern Bangkok from Bang Pa-in District in Ayutthaya to Samut Prakan Province.

[whybother]

HOW are they going to "speed the water to the sea"?

By increasing the capacity of the rivers and canals, I'd say. Gravity will do the rest.

With Ayutthaya being 2 metres above sea level, gravity isn't going to do much.

[sirchai]

HOW are they going to "speed the water to the sea"?

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

Using 10,000 jet skies from Pattaya, Phuket, and Ko Samui. They'll pull AND push the water into the sea, while yellow submarines are driving back and forth...

[tombkk]

HOW are they going to "speed the water to the sea"?

By increasing the capacity of the rivers and canals, I'd say. Gravity will do the rest.

With Ayutthaya being 2 metres above sea level, gravity isn't going to do much.

Well gravity pulled the water from the north to Ayutthya, and then from Ayutthya further down towards the sea (with Bangkok inconveniently in the way), didn't it?

[The Snark]

How many people reading this thread know the flood control system already existed? Starting 150 years ago the Thai Kings had over 6000 kilometers of canals and flood channels built. At present, barely 2000 kilometers remain.

This thread is rehashing the age old operation of reinventing the wheel. You prevent flooding first and foremost by comprehensive watershed managment, then storage, diversions and catchments, and finally the capacity and capability of moving the water on. Don't even bother with #3 without 1 and 2.

As for moving the water on, how about a little chuckle? The 'Los Angeles River' that assures no floods will occur in the greater LA area is capable of moving around 10,000 cubic meters of water per minute. Bangkok gets more water than it does but anyway, would anyone like to describe what such a channel going through or past Bangkok looks like? With a drop of less than 100 meters, well, anyone ever heard of that little gulley called The Grand Canyon?

Edited January 21, 2012 by The Snark

[jimbeam1]

Why oh why don't they just go back to the Dutch, say sorry, can you run that by us one more time.

jb1 (ok loss of face)

[The Snark]

Why oh why don't they just go back to the Dutch, say sorry, can you run that by us one more time.

and, asked by the 163rd sub sub prime minister (portfolio of gravitational affairs), 'Which direction does the water run, anyway?'

Edited January 21, 2012 by The Snark

[KKvampire]

It's so clear that there is a high probability the flooding will occur again this year, the facts point to it undeniably, Dam levels, water management. It only needs a around 60-7-% of last years rainfall and Thailand "is stuffed". Next time it will be the end, and reading M/s Yinglucks plans are barely worthy of comment.

[whybother]

Well gravity pulled the water from the north to Ayutthya, and then from Ayutthya further down towards the sea (with Bangkok inconveniently in the way), didn't it?

... and how fast was that?

[craigt3365]

The flood control in the Los Angeles area exemplifies long range planning and managment. In fact of the matter, Bangkok could easily duplicate their entire system, part of which is The Kings well thought out 'Monkey Cheeks' program. However, a few things must be implimented. That exemplary flood control system has planning and maintenence worked out for decades to come and the various agencies involved such as the L.A. County Public Works and the Coastal Commission run it with an iron fist. Encroachment is rapidly and harshly dealth with. Development requires long range planning exhaustively detailed.

Many people think 'Floods in LA? It's a desert!'. But when the fit hits the shan there, it does it in style. Decade dry stream beds become flash floods in an hour. Vast stretches of what appear to be wasteland turn into effective catchment basins and so on. Thailand essentially has only two choices in this matter. Follow the recommendations of His Majesty to the letter, or resign themselves to worse and more devastating floods. Interim measures, stop gaps, short term planning and slush fund mega projects will inevitably fail. Experts from around the world have clearly spoken, inclusive of the King.

Not only, LA, which does have an excellent system of drainage, but also Vegas and Phoenix. I remember in the early 70's when cars use to float in Caesar's Palace parking lot. Doesn't happen any more.

[hellodolly]

Why oh why don't they just go back to the Dutch, say sorry, can you run that by us one more time.

jb1 (ok loss of face)

For the life of me I can not figure why they want to hold on to the face they have.

Get the Dutch back and bring in the Israeli experts that Thaksin had and come up with a viable plan.

My money says they will start the hundred mile long tunnel ten Kilometers down before they do that.

[phiphidon]

It will happen again. This year will see a lot of rainfall. The tendency continues. The south has daily rainfall and it is above average by a big amount. Isolated showers and thunderstorms happen right now in the Centre, North and North-East which is uncommon for January. I witnessed 2 heavy rainfalls in the western Bangkok this January. That's a lot already for January. Also, the weathermen predict a rainy Summer. To prevent the major floods of 2012 requires more than just a plan, it requires years of hard work and investment. I don't see it to happen soon. The recent floods really affected the well-being of central Thailand. Right now they can't repair the damaged roads and cover potholes and I can't see them put the plan in practice. It's just a promise and nothing else. Just let's hope the rainy season won't be too active in the North and North-East, otherwise the floods will happen again in the floodplain (most of central provinces).

I agree. Mismanagment of the water-problem is for longtime Thai tradition.

But last year the mismanagement was topped. Two months before the big rains in the North, the Bhumipon Dam was full to 98%. All technical staff (one in my family) wanted to open the dam to be prepared for the next rain.

Official order from the useless stuff of the government: No.

Later the Wang River met the Ping River and ....

Murphy's Law: (my conclusion) Promotion is completed when the incapacity is visible.

The New Thai government.

Don't lay blame on the current reigning government.

The problems have existed for some time, now.

Some are just waking up to this. Yet, most are still asleep.

Political bickering and particular comparative political identies get us nowhere....

But the severity of this flood is directly connected to this current goverments decision chains. You can't escape that sad reality.

Not just this government as previous threads have shown.

[tombkk]

Well gravity pulled the water from the north to Ayutthya, and then from Ayutthya further down towards the sea (with Bangkok inconveniently in the way), didn't it?

... and how fast was that?

Are you serious? If so, please advise the reason for this question.

Yes, for flood management, the speed needs to be measured, but I am sure you want to tell us something.

[moe666]

The retension area thing I donot get, as all of central Thailand was a retension area last year.There was just too much water, after Oct 1rst ,coming down the pike.

[xthAi76s]

I am confused they want to get the water into the sea as fast as possible. To accomplish this they are going to build dykes. Seems kind of counter productive to me.

I noticed not a word about clearing out the existing channels and keeping them clear or common sense when it comes to letting water out of a dam in the face of a rainy season.

This plan sounds as good as the 100 mile tunnel ten miles down.

There was nothing wrong with the tunnel at all.

It has already been done in similar conditions and to completely fit it to Thailand, it was designed by some of the world's leading experts in this technology. It was such a viable plan that, after reviewing it in depth (pun intended), the World Bank's engineers rated the Thai tunnel plan as excellent. They then put their money where their mouth is and offered USD 1 + billion IFC financing.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but the tunnel is the way to go. However, the Thai government has decided they should do the flood protection project themselves, although they are "borrowing" the electricity generating idea. One thing is for sure. The World Bank financed proposal would have been completely transparent. You can draw your own conclusions on this.

Japan has built something like an underground rain tunnel/holding facility, electric generating (I think) project long ago.

[hellodolly]

I am confused they want to get the water into the sea as fast as possible. To accomplish this they are going to build dykes. Seems kind of counter productive to me.

I noticed not a word about clearing out the existing channels and keeping them clear or common sense when it comes to letting water out of a dam in the face of a rainy season.

This plan sounds as good as the 100 mile tunnel ten miles down.

There was nothing wrong with the tunnel at all.

It has already been done in similar conditions and to completely fit it to Thailand, it was designed by some of the world's leading experts in this technology. It was such a viable plan that, after reviewing it in depth (pun intended), the World Bank's engineers rated the Thai tunnel plan as excellent. They then put their money where their mouth is and offered USD 1 + billion IFC financing.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but the tunnel is the way to go. However, the Thai government has decided they should do the flood protection project themselves, although they are "borrowing" the electricity generating idea. One thing is for sure. The World Bank financed proposal would have been completely transparent. You can draw your own conclusions on this.

Japan has built something like an underground rain tunnel/holding facility, electric generating (I think) project long ago.

Interesting a rain tunnel with a electric generating project.

That could be a shocking experience.

Is it 100 miles long and is it ten miles deep and will it flow water into the sea?

[xthAi76s]

I am confused they want to get the water into the sea as fast as possible. To accomplish this they are going to build dykes. Seems kind of counter productive to me.

I noticed not a word about clearing out the existing channels and keeping them clear or common sense when it comes to letting water out of a dam in the face of a rainy season.

This plan sounds as good as the 100 mile tunnel ten miles down.

There was nothing wrong with the tunnel at all.

It has already been done in similar conditions and to completely fit it to Thailand, it was designed by some of the world's leading experts in this technology. It was such a viable plan that, after reviewing it in depth (pun intended), the World Bank's engineers rated the Thai tunnel plan as excellent. They then put their money where their mouth is and offered USD 1 + billion IFC financing.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but the tunnel is the way to go. However, the Thai government has decided they should do the flood protection project themselves, although they are "borrowing" the electricity generating idea. One thing is for sure. The World Bank financed proposal would have been completely transparent. You can draw your own conclusions on this.

Japan has built something like an underground rain tunnel/holding facility, electric generating (I think) project long ago.

Interesting a rain tunnel with a electric generating project.

That could be a shocking experience.

Is it 100 miles long and is it ten miles deep and will it flow water into the sea?

I'm a layperson with respect to water management, so I don't really know. But, I would agree that the technical capacity to deal much better with the issue does exist out there. Let's see what Thailand does.

[The Snark]

The Bangkok floods in a nutshell.

-Rain falls in the highlands. Watershed helps to absorb the water.

-If more rain falls than can be absorbed into the ground, the water runs into rivers.

-Rivers get dams for 3 reasons; to generate electricity, to store water and to reduce the speed of the flow.

-Water must be released from dams or weight and erosion threatens the integrity of the dam.

-Water flows into the lowlands. If there is more water than channels, the water overflows, spreading over wide areas. This can be controlled by having designated wetlands that can accept the excess water or areas specifically set aside to retain overflow (catchments).

-Water continues down through the low lands. How fast the water is evacuated depends on the drop, the decrease in elevation over a given distance. When the drop is minimal the energy of the water decreases and water volume increases according to a scientific formula. When water energy reaches zero it is stagnant and cannot move of it's own volition. Energy must be applied to move the water by pumping mechanisms.

-Water energy (speed) approaches zero near Bangkok where the drop is very small. As the energy drops, friction, turbulence and obstructions becomes a factor. The more surface area of what contains the water to the volume of water resists water motion and greater energy needs to be applied to move the liquid. Canals and waterways as found in Bangkok have almost no drop and very high friction. As less water is moving, has energy, a greater area must be provided for the water volume.

The above is all basic hydrology. Now, eliminate 2/3rds or more of the watershed in the highlands. Water volume increases. Bring dams to near full capacity. Their buffer ability, the capacity to store and release water evenly, is lost. The water enters the lowlands where is looses most of it's energy. The catchments, mostly rice fields, surrounding Bangkok have been lost through development. Most of he natural catchment areas, swamps, have been filled in. (Industrial parks, Suvarnibhumi airport etc.) The water has lost nearly all energy and spreads out over areas that deny the water gaining energy (flooded rural zones).

With hundreds of thousands of acres of rural zones that become flooded, a single channel with energy augmentation, cannot be effective. The water is disbursed over a huge area and must be collected. However, there is no sufficient area for collection. The energy required to get the stagnant water moving rapidly using pumps would be in the millions of horsepower. Then, pumps cannot take the place of drop, gravity. The energy applied to the water will be rapidly lost to friction and more energy must be reapplied.

Obviously, a few mega channels cannot possibly work. Even if a contained pipe was large enough to handle all the water, without drop the energy, pumping, would have to be reapplied as the friction of the pipe removes the energy.

Very roughly and approximately, to assure NO flooding in Bangkok during the past rainy season, we would be talking a gigantic reservior larger than Bumipol dam, a pipe approximately 30 meters across, and around one and a half to five million horsepower of pumps.

None of the above is rocket science. It's all basic hydrology. Now, for us armchair curious, let us just sit back and watch Ms. PMs megaprojects attempt to defy the basic laws of physics.

As a PS. There are 2 rules of plumbing. 1, water flows downhill. 2. Payday is Friday. If by chance those two get reversed, payday being on Monday, 1 will probably never happen.

Edited January 22, 2012 by The Snark

[Old Man River]

I am confused they want to get the water into the sea as fast as possible. To accomplish this they are going to build dykes. Seems kind of counter productive to me.

I noticed not a word about clearing out the existing channels and keeping them clear or common sense when it comes to letting water out of a dam in the face of a rainy season.

This plan sounds as good as the 100 mile tunnel ten miles down.

There was nothing wrong with the tunnel at all.

It has already been done in similar conditions and to completely fit it to Thailand, it was designed by some of the world's leading experts in this technology. It was such a viable plan that, after reviewing it in depth (pun intended), the World Bank's engineers rated the Thai tunnel plan as excellent. They then put their money where their mouth is and offered USD 1 + billion IFC financing.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but the tunnel is the way to go. However, the Thai government has decided they should do the flood protection project themselves, although they are "borrowing" the electricity generating idea. One thing is for sure. The World Bank financed proposal would have been completely transparent. You can draw your own conclusions on this.

Japan has built something like an underground rain tunnel/holding facility, electric generating (I think) project long ago.

Interesting a rain tunnel with a electric generating project.

That could be a shocking experience.

Is it 100 miles long and is it ten miles deep and will it flow water into the sea?

According to the World Bank project it has been done before and their engineers have studied it and believe it can be done in Thailand. They are so sure that they put their money where their mouth is by providing financing via IFC. However, the Thai government decided they have a better plan and will do it themselves. We wait to see what their better plan is. They will, most probably, incorporate the electricity generating plant into their project.

[The Snark]

Electricity generation near Bangkok. Right. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Thailand_Topography.png

And I'm going to start selling stock in my perpetual motion machine.