Bankruptcy

[dickbarton]

My friend from England has been living in Thailand with his Thai wife for several years. He has just dropped a bombshell on me. They have built up enormous debts which they haven't a hope in hell,s chance of repaying. In fact I am one of his creditors. His wife is now talking about going to the police and lawyers. I assume to declare bankrupcy.

I wonder what the ramifications are for him. I believe that, in the UK, a bankrupt is released from his obligations after a certain period or after the debt has been repaid, whichever comes first, but I don't know about Thailand. My feelings are that the Thai immigration will hold his passport until he has repaid the debt or the obligatory period has lapsed, then deport him, but I really am not sure. In the event of deportation, would the UK immigration look unfavourably on an application by his wife to live in England ? Obviously he's an extremely worried man who has no idea what the future holds for him, so I hope there is someone reading this who can advise him

Sorry, I forgot the heading

[smedly]

without knowing too much about it I'd say it depends on who the money is owed too, my guess is criminal charges could be possible if he obtained funds without the means to pay back - boardering on fraud

I'd be wanting to leave Thailand and seek employment to pay back what they owe, staying here is not an option either way.

[Mario2008]

Let him talk to a lawyer.

Bankrupcy might mean he doesn't have an income, so will need to leave the country as he wouldn't qualify for an extension of stay.

[Mobi]

Unlike the UK, the line between civil and criminal cases in this country is very murky and even issuing a bad cheque can get you put in jail.

I would advise extreme caution in going to the police before he has talked the whole thing through with a good lawyer who should also accompany him to any visits to the police station.

I would have thought that coming to an accommodation with his creditors with a viable plan to pay back the debts would be a much better course of action.

he has got himself into a complete mess in a jurisdiction and a culture which is very different to his home country so he must be very careful and I wish him luck.

[alyx]

Hey, definitely not the same case but a few years back, one guy was put in jail until his family sent money over to pay what he owed. He had not stolen anything, just borrowed money and stayed at mid range hotel....so, as said before, weigh al alternatives before stepping in anything

[Soutpeel]

without knowing too much about it I'd say it depends on who the money is owed too, my guess is criminal charges could be possible if he obtained funds without the means to pay back - boardering on fraud

I'd be wanting to leave Thailand and seek employment to pay back what they owe, staying here is not an option either way.

If it an unsecured loan then this is a civil matter not a a criminal matter....i.e. he can't be charged with fraud, please do not try inferring this...its a very big jump (even in Thailand) from being unable to pay a debt (civil matter) to a Fraud (criminal matter)

Further unless the "friend" has actually co-signed on any loans/agreements ie a mortgage etc I do not believe his is liable for any debts incurred by his beloved wife, even in "community of property" and therefore would not need to file for bankruptcy, as we know in practice, Thai banks and financial institutions are very reluctant to hand out loans to Farangs in their own name due to the possibility of default.

There is a lot of detail missing from the OP, but I beleive if the "friend" has not signed for anything, and it was the wife, he would not be liable for anything

[smedly]

without knowing too much about it I'd say it depends on who the money is owed too, my guess is criminal charges could be possible if he obtained funds without the means to pay back - boardering on fraud

I'd be wanting to leave Thailand and seek employment to pay back what they owe, staying here is not an option either way.

If it an unsecured loan then this is a civil matter not a a criminal matter....i.e. he can't be charged with fraud, please do not try inferring this...its a very big jump (even in Thailand) from being unable to pay a debt (civil matter) to a Fraud (criminal matter)

Further unless the "friend" has actually co-signed on any loans/agreements ie a mortgage etc I do not believe his is liable for any debts incurred by his beloved wife, even in "community of property" and therefore would not need to file for bankruptcy, as we know in practice, Thai banks and financial institutions are very reluctant to hand out loans to Farangs in their own name due to the possibility of default.

There is a lot of detail missing from the OP, but I beleive if the "friend" has not signed for anything, and it was the wife, he would not be liable for anything

you my friend are thinking like a farang and not thinking like a farang in Thailand, as I mentioned in my post "it largely depends on who he owes the money too" and as the original poster of this thread has stated "he borrowed money off him" so god only knows who they are in debt too and as for his wifes liability - if she borrowed money which was intended for her without him knowing then yes under normal circumstances his liability would be minimal but if she borrowed money and he was aware - different story, I know people who have run out of money here and discovered through mutual friends that they had borrowed large sums from many people in order to prolong their stay then had to do a runner owing millions of baht, I also know a few here that have been living like kings splashing money around like they had some only to discover the 15 credit cards they where using got maxed out and now owed very large sums of money, the truth is if you don't have any income or assets how can you borrow money - to me that is fraud because at some point you had to lie about how you where going to pay it back - even to close friends

[smedly]

Unlike the UK, the line between civil and criminal cases in this country is very murky and even issuing a bad cheque can get you put in jail.

I would advise extreme caution in going to the police before he has talked the whole thing through with a good lawyer who should also accompany him to any visits to the police station.

I would have thought that coming to an accommodation with his creditors with a viable plan to pay back the debts would be a much better course of action.

he has got himself into a complete mess in a jurisdiction and a culture which is very different to his home country so he must be very careful and I wish him luck.

great post

[Soutpeel]

if you don't have any income or assets how can you borrow money - to me that is fraud because at some point you had to lie about how you where going to pay it back - even to close friends

They managed to do that very well in Europe and the US over the last few years.....how many people were put on fraud charges there ?.....my guess none, and as stated if its an unsecured loan, irrespective of where the loan come from you are are still not comitting fraud, debt or the abillity not to pay debt in most places in the world is deemed to be a civil matter, debt collection companies can/will threaten criminal legal action, as a scare tactic but this cannot be enforced.....please direct me to one case in either Thailand, US, UK etc were somebody was sucessfully convicted of fraud becasue they could not service a loan.

When handing out unsecured loans, the onus is on the financial company to conduct the proper due dilligence, if said company doesnt do their due dilligence properly and a loan defaults because somebody now is unable to pay, then by no stretch of the imagination can this be turned into a fraud case.....the rules/laws in Thailand are very similar to UK/US in many respects as regards civil debt.

Loaning money to friends is even more problematic as typically the "friends" do not go not the route of even signing a letter or acknowlegement that the debt is owed or the T&C's involved, therefore from a legal perspective the person who lends the money will not have a leg to stand one, if the "friend" defaults on the loan

If a person defaults on a loan from a loan shark, they typically dont worry about the legal aspects in Thailand, they will just come around and "break your legs"

[smedly]

That was just my opinion, I'm not saying it has any legal significance

Like I said this situation depends on who the money was borrowed off and we only know of one - the OP

and where Thais and falangs come up against each other here often the police are involved at some point - for me that means the rule book goes out the window.........

[Soutpeel]

and where Thais and falangs come up against each other here often the police are involved at some point - for me that means the rule book goes out the window.........

Yes...you are correct, but a "summons" to a police station to "talk" about money being owed is not the same as being charged for fraud, use of the police in Thailand in matters such as this is very similar to the debt collection agencies elsewhere threating criminal charges, more bark than bite, of course here you can donate to the policemans ball for a more "agressive" approach by the BiB

[mstribling]

My wife often goes to the police to help collect money owed to her. Although there is no debtors prison in Thailand. Most Thai's a rightfully scared shitless when 5-0 comes knocking on their door. It's a scare tactic. It works 100% of the time.

[dickbarton]

Some good stuff here, thanks. I don't know the reason why the money was borrowed, but I understand that the source was friends and relatives. One of his problems is that everyone around him is chattering away in Thai and I'm the only one he can turn to for a shoulder to cry on. He has signed a number of papers for his wife with the assurance " don't worry about it" except for two where the lender physically handed the money over. It was then that he got wise to the situation.

He now knows that one lender actually went to the police and they called her in. They accepted her assurance that she was dealing with it. In fact, that particular creditor was paid off ( I suspect by borrowing more money)

Mario's advise to talk to a lawyer has been taken on board and they will be doing so shortly - I will keep you posted. I had already suggested that course of action to him. There is a house involved but that will take a long time to sell, there will be insufficient collateral, but I think a lawyer can buy time easier than his wife

One thing I must say, he intends to stand by his wife - some will say " stupid". But he hopes this has been a big lesson for her. Her family are also standing by her and some are even offering to mortgage their own homes to help. It appears that the family feel very sorry for my pal. They constantly say things like "Jay dee dee" He feels guilty about the whole affair because he thinks some of the monery was used to make a good home for the two of them. He constantly talks about the various friends and relatives who have handed over virtually all their savings

He is still concerned about the visa problem though. There is no doubt now that he will be involved in a volunatry arrangement. Would this affect an application for visa due to marriage? If such an application were refused and he had to return to the UK then they would lose a possible source of funds wouldn't they?

[Soutpeel]

He has signed a number of papers for his wife with the assurance " don't worry about it" except for two where the lender physically handed the money over. It was then that he got wise to the situation.

He is still concerned about the visa problem though. There is no doubt now that he will be involved in a volunatry arrangement. Would this affect an application for visa due to marriage? If such an application were refused and he had to return to the UK then they would lose a possible source of funds wouldn't they?

Woopsie....by signing anything he is now acknowleging he is liable for the debt incurred, so he can be named as part of civil action to recover monies.

His visa in Thailand would not be affected provided provided he still meets the terms and conditions of his visa, ie Income or 400k required for a "married visa", if he doesnt comply with these, eg doesnt have the money then he will not get the visa and would therefore have to find another way of living here eg Ed visa .....Would immigration hold his passport ?.....I would not have thought so, this is a civil matter not a criminal matter.

Could his wifes visa application be affected in the UK, not unless there is a question on the form about her being declared bankrupt ?.....if not then she has no reason to disclose this information.

[beano2274]

He has signed a number of papers for his wife with the assurance " don't worry about it" except for two where the lender physically handed the money over. It was then that he got wise to the situation.

He is still concerned about the visa problem though. There is no doubt now that he will be involved in a volunatry arrangement. Would this affect an application for visa due to marriage? If such an application were refused and he had to return to the UK then they would lose a possible source of funds wouldn't they?

Woopsie....by signing anything he is now acknowleging he is liable for the debt incurred, so he can be named as part of civil action to recover monies.

His visa in Thailand would not be affected provided provided he still meets the terms and conditions of his visa, ie Income or 400k required for a "married visa", if he doesnt comply with these, eg doesnt have the money then he will not get the visa and would therefore have to find another way of living here eg Ed visa .....Would immigration hold his passport ?.....I would not have thought so, this is a civil matter not a criminal matter.

Could his wifes visa application be affected in the UK, not unless there is a question on the form about her being declared bankrupt ?.....if not then she has no reason to disclose this information.

Except she needs to show sufficient funds in her account, and a reason to return to Thailand. Also he would be required to present his bank books to show enough money as well.

Section 5 of the UK forms ask about Employment and Income, might be difficult to fill out.

Section 6 (questions 6.9 and 6.10) ask about criminal convictions

[Soutpeel]

He has signed a number of papers for his wife with the assurance " don't worry about it" except for two where the lender physically handed the money over. It was then that he got wise to the situation.

He is still concerned about the visa problem though. There is no doubt now that he will be involved in a volunatry arrangement. Would this affect an application for visa due to marriage? If such an application were refused and he had to return to the UK then they would lose a possible source of funds wouldn't they?

Woopsie....by signing anything he is now acknowleging he is liable for the debt incurred, so he can be named as part of civil action to recover monies.

His visa in Thailand would not be affected provided provided he still meets the terms and conditions of his visa, ie Income or 400k required for a "married visa", if he doesnt comply with these, eg doesnt have the money then he will not get the visa and would therefore have to find another way of living here eg Ed visa .....Would immigration hold his passport ?.....I would not have thought so, this is a civil matter not a criminal matter.

Could his wifes visa application be affected in the UK, not unless there is a question on the form about her being declared bankrupt ?.....if not then she has no reason to disclose this information.

Except she needs to show sufficient funds in her account, and a reason to return to Thailand. Also he would be required to present his bank books to show enough money as well.

Section 5 of the UK forms ask about Employment and Income, might be difficult to fill out.

Section 6 (questions 6.9 and 6.10) ask about criminal convictions

Under section 6. - bankruptcy is not a criminal conviction, its a civil matter therefore repsonse would be No, but you are correct about the questions in section 5, would be difficult to answer truthfully in these circumstances.

[beano2274]

Actually the questions are.

6.9 Do you have any criminal convictions in any country

(including traffic offences)? Put a cross (x) in the relevant box

6.10 Have you ever been charged in any country with a criminal offence for which you have not yet been tried in court (including traffic offences)? Put a cross (x) in the relevant box

Terminology not being my strong point but Criminal conviction and criminal offence seem two different meanings to me.

What would happen if people brought charges surely then that is an offence, and could be considered under 6.10 waiting to be tried in court.

Very difficult for the OP, as he is one of those affected.

[smedly]

Can I ask how old are they ?

[Mario2008]

6. 9 looks on cases in which you were convicted.

6.10 looks on cases in which one is charged, but not yet convicted by a judge.

[Soutpeel]

Actually the questions are.

6.9 Do you have any criminal convictions in any country

(including traffic offences)? Put a cross (x) in the relevant box

6.10 Have you ever been charged in any country with a criminal offence for which you have not yet been tried in court (including traffic offences)? Put a cross (x) in the relevant box

Terminology not being my strong point but Criminal conviction and criminal offence seem two different meanings to me.

What would happen if people brought charges surely then that is an offence, and could be considered under 6.10 waiting to be tried in court.

Very difficult for the OP, as he is one of those affected.

Criminal is Criminal and Civil is Civil, bankruptcy/ being unable service a debt is not a criminal offence or if declared bankrupt/insolvent, a criminal conviction in the UK or Thailand...therefore the person can answer "No" or "none" to both these questions in all honesty

The question required to answer "yes" would be along the lines of "have been declared bankrupt or insolvent in the last 10 years (or similar)

What Criminal charges can be brought against a person in Thailand if they are unable to service a debt ?....a civil claim can be laid, but what grounds are there for a criminal charge ?

[Mobi]

There is a general point here which I have already tried to explain. It matters not what the letter of the law is; a farang in Thailand must always be on his guard.

He speaks little or none of the language and he certainly doesn't read it.

All manner of things can and do happen to unsuspecting farangs who owe money or have signed papers for others who have borrowed money or have signed any document at all that they cannot read.

I will give you two examples that illustrate this.

I know of a guy who owed a fair bit of money to a Thai woman for board and lodgings but was unable to pay. He promised that he would pay her back when he had the money. Running out of patience, the woman reported the man to the immigration police and had him arrested on a technical infringement and the man's girl friend had to stump up a great deal of money to get him out, after which he was deported.

The second incident happened some years back when a farang was working legally for a Thai company but the company forgot to renew his work permit. When he tried to get it sorted with the labour dept he was charged with working without a permit and had to go to court. His employer's representative accompanied him to court where he was advised to plead guilty, pay a fine and then they would be able to renew his work permit. He couldn't speak a word of Thai but did as requested and also signed a paper issued by the court, which his employer advised was OK to sign.

The next thing he knew he was clapped in handcuffs and hauled off to jail.

It transpired that his employer had lied to him and had told the court that the guy had disappeared up country without permission and that is why they did not renew his work permit. The paper he signed confirmed that he had intentionally worked without a work permit, and that he was guilty as charged.

His friends eventually hired a lawyer who uncovered what his ex employer had been up to and got him a suspended sentence upon appeal.

A farang is really like a child in a lion's den when it comes to legal issues in Thailand and he should be even wary of most lawyers as so many of them will play both sides, especially where there is a gullible farang involved.

Its too late for the OP's friend but the golden rule is never to get into debt in Thailand, and never, ever sign something you do not understand. Don't take anyone's word that it is OK to sign - not your wife, (with all due respect, they are not always the most literate of women - especially in Thai legalese and sometimes they go along with it because they don't wish to lose face by questioning it), or your lawyer.

Always get an independent translation. If they seem reluctant for you to do this, you know something is not kosher.

[dickbarton]

Can I ask how old are they ?

67 and 35. Married happily ( apparently) for 4 years I think. Pension from the UK about 43,000 baht per month

[smedly]

ok so there is an income and that changes things dramatically, they need to set about doing budget plans perhaps even selling the morgaged house and taking the proceeds to part pay some of the debt, then get somewhere to rent, it is reasonable to live here on 30kbaht a month, she can get a job, after a couple of years perhaps things won't look so bad, a little hardship for a while but coming out clean and staying that way

[kartman]

We presume he owns the house? if owned by the wife could also be up to it's roof in debt.

[maprao]

Soi41 was she a rice farmer's daughter?

Just asking...lol mine was still is and she is proud of it. I however do have alot of money lol by Thai standards anyway

[soi41]

maproa. Actually yes, but an educated one !

[lopburi3]

flame removed