Ecos At British Embassy.

[GU22]

There has been some discussion between Silomfan and myself (and others) about bias in the Entry Clearance Section at the British Embassy. So, what do you think?

You can see from these figures (page 15) that in 2004/5 the British Embassy received 43,511 visa applications, of which 39,938 were successful and 2,586 (5.9%) were not.

I would guess that the 39,938 successful applicants would say that the ECOs and the system are fair, but what about the failures?

On this and similar boards we see complaints from people who have had a visa refused, a few complaints from 2,586 in the last year. When my wife's first application for a vv was refused I was angry, and ranted and raved about the system and how unfair it was. With the benefit of hindsight together with a lot of research into the system, I can see exactly where we went wrong, and now admit that had I been the ECO I would have refused it too!

Silomfan's main assertion appears to be that the system is biased in favour of the rich and powerful, that poor applicants are automatically looked down upon by the ECOs and are almost certain to be refused.

My assertion is that the criteria are the same for everyone, it's just that a middle/upper class person with a good, secure job is going to find it a lot easier to show that they meet the criteria than an unemployed farm worker, or a bargirl (for example).

This means that the system may very well appear to be biased, but then so is life. I would like to retire and buy a luxury condo in Bangkok. I can't afford it. Does this mean that I am the victim of some form of discriminatory bias? Of course not!

What do you think?

[GuestHouse]

First thing, they have very clear rules and procedures that they follow.

Second thing, they put up with a load of <deleted>. I've actually seen guys straight from the bar, pissed and with their delight standing right next to them, filling in the paperwork while queuing to try to get a visa. Spare a thought now please.

Thirdly. What is the attitude of the applicant, or more precisely the applicant's sponsor. If you turn up expecting to be treated unfairly and then for some wholy legitimate reason you are asked, say to submit more documents, what is the response - 'OK I need new documents' or 'that SOB is sticking it into me'?

They do a very difficult job, and dealing with stressed customers is never easy, given that people's hopes and perhaps loves are attached to the applications it is no wonder at all that tempers rise and accusations of unfairness arise.

I wouldn't do the ECO job even if it came with all the legitimate work/visas/imcome in Thailand - there are far more easier ways to earn a living and fewer easier ways to ear brick-bats.

Edited December 3, 2005 by GuestHouse

[silomfan]

Well ... a good idea of GU22's to conduct this survey i must say. It won't change anything but it is a bit of fun and does give the otherwise silent majority on this forum the chance to vote on an important issue.

His introduction to this vote is not without its own bias and he is injecting his own opinion into it .i mean he leaves no doubt that he does believe they are fair. This is based on his own experience , and his feeling that his first visa was refused due to his own failings in the application. Thats fine.

To act as a counterweight to his bias, i am adding my own and then everyone has opposing views from which to consider how to place their votes.

In my experience i have been involved directly (as opposed to just advising or being contacted after the event) with 10 applications , 4 visit, 2 student and 4 settlement. The 4 visits were all approved, the 2 student were both approved, and of the 4 settlement 1 was approved, 2 were refused and 1 is a new , as yet untested Civil Partnership visa . So you see i have had quite a good rate of success on the face of it . HOWEVER all the approvals were more than 2 years ago when it was definately easier to get a visa than now. The current media hysteria in the UK regarding immigration has led to a tougher stand by the ECO's. This is both my experience and the experience of leading UK immigration lawyers.

GU22 may believe that his refusal was his own fault on reflection, but my lawyers opinion , and that of my MP , is that my refusals were all completely unfair (my lawyer's words)and based on homophobia and bias (my MP's words) .

Also it may interest GU22 to know that all my successes (is that spelt right?) were when i did my own application and the 2 refusals were when the solicitor handled it all !! Maybe there is a moral here but it does show that my applications were not carelessly prepared, they were done by a leading immigration lawyer. Unlike his i am guessing.

There is no doubt that , in theory, the rules apply to all equally. . However the reality is that anyone who does not fit into the nice little package that the ECO's have been instructed by the Home Office to approve , (and the bulk of ordinary Thais fall into that "look carefully at this application" category) will be subjected to close scrutiny by the ECO's who , and here's the crucial point, will look at the application with a view to finding reasons to refuse rather than looking at it with a view to finding reasons to approve. That IS discrimination , which was the point i was making.

To avoid making this post any longer i will post details later, at a relevant thread, of an example i personally witnessed whilst in the Embassy which demonstrates the lottery of who you get interviewing you and the unfairness that this results in .

So come on everyone, a good idea by GU22 , think of your experiences , especially those of you who were refused , and .........

Happy Voting !!

SILOMFAN

[the gent]

Silomfan,

Credibility is the word ,ok?

Homophobia is just plain silly and I suggest you sit down, give your knee caps a rub, take a big breath and look in the mirror,ok. Otherwise, you are just being a silly arse.....

[GU22]

In my experience i have been involved directly (as opposed to just advising or being contacted after the event) with 10 applications , 4 visit, 2 student and 4 settlement. The 4 visits were all approved, the 2 student were both approved, and of the 4 settlement 1 was approved, 2 were refused and 1 is a new , as yet untested Civil Partnership visa .

I'm happy that you have been so successful, but still wonder about the reasons for so many different applications. You say you are neither an agent nor indulging in serial relationships, maybe one day you will reveal all!

all my successes (is that spelt right?) were when i did my own application and the 2 refusals were when the solicitor handled it all !! Maybe there is a moral here

Well, it shows that your "immigration lawyer" wasn't very good, and that paying someone to prepare an application is a waste of money. In my own experience, having made a balls up first time, I made sure I knew exactly what was required and my wife's SV application met the criteria. Result? Visa issued after a 5 minute interview. This was five years ago, but last year my step-son submitted an application for a visit visa. He was asked 2 questions;

"When do you want to go?"

"Can you come back tomorrow to collect your passport and visa?"

My wife is not middle class, she was making/selling shirts in a factory shop when I met her and our son is a student.

Was I just lucky? Maybe, but I made my own luck by finding out exactly what was required and showing that the applications met the requirements!

However the reality is that anyone who does not fit into the nice little package that the ECO's have been instructed by the Home Office to approve , (and the bulk of ordinary Thais fall into that "look carefully at this application" category) will be subjected to close scrutiny by the ECO's.....

All first time applications are looked at carefully and subject to close scrutiny!

.....who , and here's the crucial point, will look at the application with a view to finding reasons to refuse rather than looking at it with a view to finding reasons to approve.

The fact remains that last year only 5.9% of applications were refused. Now, that's not very good if you fall within the 5.9%, but that figure alone disproves your assertion.

Getting a UK visa is not simple, but it is a darn site easier than some other countries. I suspect that our American and Australian friends are wondering why we Brits are kicking up such a fuss when getting a UK visa is a hel_l of a lot easier than one to either of those countries!

Of course, if people didn't try to pretend that their girl/boyfriend was a student, if some bargirls didn't try to get in so they could go on the game in London, if people didn't get a visit visa so they could work cash in hand in their uncle's restaurant, etc., etc., etc. (not just from Thailand, but many other countries too), it would be a lot easier. It is not the Home Office nor the ECOs who are to blame for the difficulties in getting a visa, it is the criminals and chancers who have abused the system in the past, and are still trying to do so today.

Edited December 3, 2005 by GU22

[silomfan]

Silomfan,

Credibility is the word ,ok?

Homophobia is just plain silly and I suggest you sit down, give your knee caps a rub, take a big breath and look in the mirror,ok. Otherwise, you are just being a silly arse.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Homophobia was my MP's words based on having dealt with a large number of applicants and their sponsers over the many years he has been an MP. Are you suggesting he is without credibility?? He certainly is in a better position than you to judge , do you not agree??

SILOMFAN

[snoophound]

One wonders why they even bother.

The UK has more immigration problems than a few Thai gals invading the place then dumping their boyfriends.

In my experience i have been involved directly (as opposed to just advising or being contacted after the event) with 10 applications , 4 visit, 2 student and 4 settlement. The 4 visits were all approved, the 2 student were both approved, and of the 4 settlement 1 was approved, 2 were refused and 1 is a new , as yet untested Civil Partnership visa .

I'm happy that you have been so successful, but still wonder about the reasons for so many different applications. You say you are neither an agent nor indulging in serial relationships, maybe one day you will reveal all!

all my successes (is that spelt right?) were when i did my own application and the 2 refusals were when the solicitor handled it all !! Maybe there is a moral here

Well, it shows that your "immigration lawyer" wasn't very good, and that paying someone to prepare an application is a waste of money. In my own experience, having made a balls up first time, I made sure I knew exactly what was required and my wife's SV application met the criteria. Result? Visa issued after a 5 minute interview. This was five years ago, but last year my step-son submitted an application for a visit visa. He was asked 2 questions;

"When do you want to go?"

"Can you come back tomorrow to collect your passport and visa?"

My wife is not middle class, she was making/selling shirts in a factory shop when I met her and our son is a student.

Was I just lucky? Maybe, but I made my own luck by finding out exactly what was required and showing that the applications met the requirements!

However the reality is that anyone who does not fit into the nice little package that the ECO's have been instructed by the Home Office to approve , (and the bulk of ordinary Thais fall into that "look carefully at this application" category) will be subjected to close scrutiny by the ECO's.....

All first time applications are looked at carefully and subject to close scrutiny!

.....who , and here's the crucial point, will look at the application with a view to finding reasons to refuse rather than looking at it with a view to finding reasons to approve.

The fact remains that last year only 5.9% of applications were refused. Now, that's not very good if you fall within the 5.9%, but that figure alone disproves your assertion.

Getting a UK visa is not simple, but it is a darn site easier than some other countries. I suspect that our American and Australian friends are wondering why we Brits are kicking up such a fuss when getting a UK visa is a hel_l of a lot easier than one to either of those countries!

Of course, if people didn't try to pretend that their girl/boyfriend was a student, if some bargirls didn't try to get in so they could go on the game in London, if people didn't get a visit visa so they could work cash in hand in their uncle's restaurant, etc., etc., etc. (not just from Thailand, but many other countries too), it would be a lot easier. It is not the Home Office nor the ECOs who are to blame for the difficulties in getting a visa, it is the criminals and chancers who have abused the system in the past, and are still trying to do so today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[GU22]

Silomfan,

Credibility is the word ,ok?

Homophobia is just plain silly and I suggest you sit down, give your knee caps a rub, take a big breath and look in the mirror,ok. Otherwise, you are just being a silly arse.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Homophobia was my MP's words based on having dealt with a large number of applicants and their sponsers over the many years he has been an MP. Are you suggesting he is without credibility?? He certainly is in a better position than you to judge , do you not agree??

SILOMFAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Depends on who he is: I can think of quite a few MPs lacking all credibility, starting with a certain T. Blair!

Seriously, one could argue that the immigration rules were previously discriminatory against homosexuals, given that the only way a gay couple could get a visa was under the unmarried partners rule. this has changed with the Civil Partnerships Act, as you know.

So you have a point with that, but homophobic?

Snoophound,

The problem of illegals is far more complex and serious than a few bargirls on the game in London. But sticking to the area of prostitution; Sex slaves freed as police smash human trafficking operation

It is thought that the women were tricked into coming to Britain, had their passports taken away and were locked in the grimy massage parlour at night to work.

Report Reveals London's Sex Slaves

More than 8,000 women are working as prostitutes in brothels, saunas and massage parlours in London, a report released today estimates.

Three quarters of them are foreign, with many smuggled into the country from eastern Europe and Asia as sex slaves........... Last year, the Metropolitan police's clubs and vice unit took 300 girls and women, including 10 children, out of brothels. Only 19% were British. The rest were from eastern Europe (25%), south east Asia (13%), western Europe (12%) and Africa (2%). Country by country, the largest numbers were from Thailand, Russia, Brazil and Kosovo. Superintendent Chris Bradford said: "It's like a slave market."

Edited December 3, 2005 by GU22

[GuestHouse]

Since the issue of people being trafficked for prostitution has been brought up, it might be worth pointing out that the majority of women entering the UK by trafficking for prostitution rackets are coming to the UK from the new EU nations. Relaxation of imigration laws has openned the door to this activity.

It should also be noted that where Thais do have easy access to other countries with wealthier ecconomies a significant number of Thais travelling to those places are doing so to work as prostitutes: - Singapore, KL and Japan are examples. Germany is another, where lax imigration from Thailand has indisputedly allowed Germans to set up brothels staffed with Thai prostitutes.

Thais do enter the UK to work as prostitutes, perhaps they jump ship when they arrive, work behind some guy's back or simply sneak through the checks. What is prevented is gangs of traffickers bringing them into the UK via bogus visa applications.

The issue is not simply protecting boarders, it is certainly not a simple matter of Homophobia - Stringent imigration checks protect, among others, the imigrant.

We should all support stringent checking of visa applicants, they protect everyone, by no means least the applicant and to a great deal the sponsor too.

[snoophound]

True

Here in Aus a few years back we had the same.

Reality is in the UK the Thai thing is tiny compared to eastern europe.

In Aus....Its very few thais now,but much more sophisticated operations run by Korean and Chinese syndicates.

The days of Thais starring in these busts are long gone.

Just the High Commissions seem a bit out of date....as always.

One walk around the casinos would sort them out,if they know what they were looking for.

Its all about money lending and getting it back now.

Since the issue of people being trafficked for prostitution has been brought up, it might be worth pointing out that the majority of women entering the UK by trafficking for prostitution rackets are coming to the UK from  the new EU nations. Relaxation of imigration laws has openned the door to this activity.

It should also be noted that where Thais do have easy access to other countries with wealthier ecconomies a significant number of Thais travelling to those places are doing so to work as prostitutes: -  Singapore, KL and Japan are examples. Germany is another, where lax imigration from Thailand has indisputedly allowed Germans to set up brothels staffed with Thai prostitutes.

Thais do enter the UK to work as prostitutes, perhaps they jump ship when they arrive, work behind some guy's back or simply sneak through the checks. What is prevented is gangs of traffickers bringing them into the UK via bogus visa applications.

The issue is not simply protecting boarders, it is certainly not a simple matter of Homophobia - Stringent imigration checks protect, among others, the imigrant.

We should all support stringent checking of visa applicants, they protect everyone, by no means least the applicant and to a great deal the sponsor too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[nonthaburial]

I must admit I have a number of thoughts on the subject of Visas tothe UK AND may I add I have never had any dealings with the BE here in Bangkok.

HOWEVER:-

I have been very happily married to a Filipina for nearly 18 years, we have a Son who like me holds a British Passport. And here is the problem, Whenever my family wish to visit my Parents in the UK my wife has to go through the rigmarole of obtaining a visa to accompany us. This in itself is painstaking with proof of finances etc but I have never had a request denied.

What makes things even more harrowing are the very obviously biased checks at the UK Port of entry on my wifes Filipina passport.

Something is desperately wrong when a ex Royal Marine Commando for 15 years, with medals to boot, has to fight hard to get a visitors visa for his wife of such long standing. and yet it seems as if every Tom, Dick and Harry from foreign countries are able to fill the streets and houses of the UK,most unable to even speak a word of English.

WHICH REMINDS ME OF THIS JOKE.

A somali gets a British citizenship and proudly walks around London on his first day in the country. He is so excited that he walks up to the first person he sees and says "isnt it great to be British" to which the answer was " I dont know I am from China"

The second person says "I dont know I am from Colombia" this leaves the Somali a little baffled and the next person he asks says ' No Idea, I am from Greece". With a total look of bewilderment, the Somali askes "Where are all the Brits then" to which the Greek replied "Probably all at work" !!!!!!

My apologies if I have ruined this thread

[GU22]

Guesthouse, I see we are basically on the same wavelength here, but I would dispute one thing you say

Since the issue of people being trafficked for prostitution has been brought up, it might be worth pointing out that the majority of women entering the UK by trafficking for prostitution rackets are coming to the UK from  the new EU nations. Relaxation of imigration laws has openned the door to this activity.

As the Guardian report I quoted before says

Last year, the Metropolitan police's clubs and vice unit took 300 girls and women, including 10 children, out of brothels. Only 19% were British. The rest were from eastern Europe (25%), south east Asia (13%), western Europe (12%) and Africa (2%). Country by country, the largest numbers were from Thailand, Russia, Brazil and Kosovo.

31% from the UK or EU, i.e. not needing a visa, 69% were visa nationals. As you so eloquently said

Stringent imigration checks protect, among others, the imigrant.

nonthaburial,

To wander a bit off topic, I am surprised that you wife has had such difficulties. After the first couple of visits she should be able to apply for a long term visit visa, of up to 10 years! She could only spend a maximum of 6 months in the UK each visit, but it would save having to apply every time. Many ex-pats with non British wives living outside the UK do this. How long will my visa be valid for?

Visit visas can be valid for 6 months, one year, two years, five years or ten years. You can apply for a visa valid for any of these periods. The ECO may decide to make your visa valid for a shorter time than you have asked for, for example if are not a regular traveller or have never visited the UK before.

She has visited the UK before? Regularly? I assume she has never been in breach of the immigration rules? Go for it! Edited December 4, 2005 by GU22

[silomfan]

Hi,

well seems this poll and thread are going cold now, no votes for more than 24 hours.

A pity more people did not vote as its not often on this forum we have a chance to vote on something.

From the results in, which are by no means much more than a bit of fun i admit, it is certainly clear that only 28.57% are happy with the ECO's which leaves 71.43% that aren't. Even if you exclude the 9.5 % who are undecided (given that GU22 provided most scenarios i'm not sure how anyone can be undecided) you have around 62% who are either quite or very concerned at the fairness of the ECO's at the British Embassy. This should be of concern to those enthusiasts of the ECO's who have taken part on this thread. Certainly this is one statistic you won't see on their website.

SILOMFAN

[GU22]

Most people who use forums such as this do so to get advice prior to applying or after a refusal. The majority, once they have their visa, leave the forum to return rarely if at all. Which leaves those that have had difficulties with an application in the past. In other words, very few successful applicants will have voted, most of the respondents will have come from the 5.9% of unsuccessful applicants.

So, I am surprised that so many voted that the most of the ECOs were fair (33.33%, not just the 28.57% quoted by Silomfan, there are 2 answers for 'fairness').

Given that most of those that voted are people that have had past problems with visa applications, this is very encouraging. Remove the votes for options 1, 3 and 6 and we are left with 57.15% of respondents being seriously concerned with the ECOs attitude.

5.9% of all applicants last year were refused, 57.15% of those are unhappy with the way their application was handled, which means that a mere 3.37% of all applicants are unhappy.

Of course, two important points to consider:

1) You can manipulate opinion poll results to prove anything that you want to.

2) The sample polled is too small, anyway, for the results to be in anyway meaningful!

Thanks to those who participated.

[johnh101]

The were a lot nicer and super effecient when they got their Tea money !

[silomfan]

The were a lot nicer and super effecient when they got their Tea money !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a shame its not still like that ...

latest update only 7 out of 25 people who voted think they are fair. Not a ringing endorsement is it ?? I think its fair to say that the bulk of the people voting on this feel they are to varying degrees UNFAIR. And any degree of unfairness should be of concern to us all. All those who do have concerns can write directly to UK Visas with their complaints at

www.ukvisas.gov.uk

they even have a link to register a complaint and they DO get back to you within 20 days ..often sooner. Don't forget to mention "British Embassy Bangkok" in your complaint . Also writing or going to see (if you are in the UK) your local MP is another useful tool at our disposal to register complaints about this. Both UK Visas website and the Britsh Embassy Bangkok website tell you what you need to do to qualify for each type of visa and both mention that the UK welcomes foreign visitors (don't laugh). The differance between this theory and the reality is great , but only by bringing this to the attention of UK Visas and the Home Office and your local MP (all of whom of course know this anyway) can we even begin to hope for improvements in the future.

SILOMFAN

[snoophound]

they even have a link to register a complaint and they DO get back to you within 20 days ..often sooner.

Really,is the response anything intelligent or just govt drone speak?

The were a lot nicer and super effecient when they got their Tea money !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a shame its not still like that ...

latest update only 7 out of 25 people who voted think they are fair. Not a ringing endorsement is it ?? I think its fair to say that the bulk of the people voting on this feel they are to varying degrees UNFAIR. And any degree of unfairness should be of concern to us all. All those who do have concerns can write directly to UK Visas with their complaints at

www.ukvisas.gov.uk

they even have a link to register a complaint and they DO get back to you within 20 days ..often sooner. Don't forget to mention "British Embassy Bangkok" in your complaint . Also writing or going to see (if you are in the UK) your local MP is another useful tool at our disposal to register complaints about this. Both UK Visas website and the Britsh Embassy Bangkok website tell you what you need to do to qualify for each type of visa and both mention that the UK welcomes foreign visitors (don't laugh). The differance between this theory and the reality is great , but only by bringing this to the attention of UK Visas and the Home Office and your local MP (all of whom of course know this anyway) can we even begin to hope for improvements in the future.

SILOMFAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[spacebass]

Any official or for that matter person that effectively accounts to no independent authority , will be able not to provide a satisfactory service should it be their whim.

Outrageous!

[Dragonman]

Any official or for that matter person that effectively  accounts to no independent authority , will be able not to provide a satisfactory service should it be their whim.

Outrageous!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Complaining to another Government Department will get you nowhere. The Audit Commission is the only independent body with any clout!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The were a lot nicer and super effecient when they got their Tea money !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a shame its not still like that ...

latest update only 7 out of 25 people who voted think they are fair. Not a ringing endorsement is it ?? I think its fair to say that the bulk of the people voting on this feel they are to varying degrees UNFAIR. And any degree of unfairness should be of concern to us all. All those who do have concerns can write directly to UK Visas with their complaints at

www.ukvisas.gov.uk

they even have a link to register a complaint and they DO get back to you within 20 days ..often sooner. Don't forget to mention "British Embassy Bangkok" in your complaint . Also writing or going to see (if you are in the UK) your local MP is another useful tool at our disposal to register complaints about this. Both UK Visas website and the Britsh Embassy Bangkok website tell you what you need to do to qualify for each type of visa and both mention that the UK welcomes foreign visitors (don't laugh). The differance between this theory and the reality is great , but only by bringing this to the attention of UK Visas and the Home Office and your local MP (all of whom of course know this anyway) can we even begin to hope for improvements in the future.

SILOMFAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The British Embassy in Bangkok. LOL The Empire doesn't exist now. The mere mention of that Embassy to a bureaucrat here will not cause much shaking in the boots to that bureaucrat ( or dare I say it, anywhere on the planet ) Move on to the third millenium,

[the gent]

The were a lot nicer and super effecient when they got their Tea money !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a shame its not still like that ...

latest update only 7 out of 25 people who voted think they are fair. Not a ringing endorsement is it ?? I think its fair to say that the bulk of the people voting on this feel they are to varying degrees UNFAIR. And any degree of unfairness should be of concern to us all. All those who do have concerns can write directly to UK Visas with their complaints at

www.ukvisas.gov.uk

they even have a link to register a complaint and they DO get back to you within 20 days ..often sooner. Don't forget to mention "British Embassy Bangkok" in your complaint . Also writing or going to see (if you are in the UK) your local MP is another useful tool at our disposal to register complaints about this. Both UK Visas website and the Britsh Embassy Bangkok website tell you what you need to do to qualify for each type of visa and both mention that the UK welcomes foreign visitors (don't laugh). The differance between this theory and the reality is great , but only by bringing this to the attention of UK Visas and the Home Office and your local MP (all of whom of course know this anyway) can we even begin to hope for improvements in the future.

SILOMFAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The British Embassy in Bangkok. LOL The Empire doesn't exist now. The mere mention of that Embassy to a bureaucrat here will not cause much shaking in the boots to that bureaucrat ( or dare I say it, anywhere on the planet ) Move on to the third millenium,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A bizarrely incoherent post from the Antipodean Dr.Pong. Either he is mao or the stress of stringing more than 3 emoticons together has proved too much........

[GU22]

latest update only 7 out of 25 people who voted think they are fair. Not a ringing endorsement is it ?? I think its fair to say that the bulk of the people voting on this feel they are to varying degrees UNFAIR.

Or to put it another way, only 6 people have so far voted that they are totally unfair, so the bulk of the people think there is a degree of fairness. As I said before, one can use the results of an unscientific poll such as this to prove anything.

A very pertinent mark made by tq2112 here

the majority of people who post threads are people who have been refused and you dont hear too much about the successes

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The were a lot nicer and super effecient when they got their Tea money !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a shame its not still like that ...

latest update only 7 out of 25 people who voted think they are fair. Not a ringing endorsement is it ?? I think its fair to say that the bulk of the people voting on this feel they are to varying degrees UNFAIR. And any degree of unfairness should be of concern to us all. All those who do have concerns can write directly to UK Visas with their complaints at

www.ukvisas.gov.uk

they even have a link to register a complaint and they DO get back to you within 20 days ..often sooner. Don't forget to mention "British Embassy Bangkok" in your complaint . Also writing or going to see (if you are in the UK) your local MP is another useful tool at our disposal to register complaints about this. Both UK Visas website and the Britsh Embassy Bangkok website tell you what you need to do to qualify for each type of visa and both mention that the UK welcomes foreign visitors (don't laugh). The differance between this theory and the reality is great , but only by bringing this to the attention of UK Visas and the Home Office and your local MP (all of whom of course know this anyway) can we even begin to hope for improvements in the future.

SILOMFAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The British Embassy in Bangkok. LOL The Empire doesn't exist now. The mere mention of that Embassy to a bureaucrat here will not cause much shaking in the boots to that bureaucrat ( or dare I say it, anywhere on the planet ) Move on to the third millenium,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A bizarrely incoherent post from the Antipodean Dr.Pong. Either he is mao or the stress of stringing more than 3 emoticons together has proved too much........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few lessons in English might get you across the line Dodger.

[silomfan]

latest update only 7 out of 25 people who voted think they are fair. Not a ringing endorsement is it ?? I think its fair to say that the bulk of the people voting on this feel they are to varying degrees UNFAIR.

Or to put it another way, only 6 people have so far voted that they are totally unfair, so the bulk of the people think there is a degree of fairness. As I said before, one can use the results of an unscientific poll such as this to prove anything.

A very pertinent mark made by tq2112 here

the majority of people who post threads are people who have been refused and you dont hear too much about the successes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems there is no lengths that GU22 won't go to to defend the British Embassy ECO's. Why is he SO in their favour ?? To make his points against my view he seems determined to praise them at every step. He says above "....only 6 people have so far voted that they are totally unfair...." Words fail me !!. The point about the ECO's is that they should be TOTALLY fair at all times . Anything less than that is unfair and should not be tolerated. They are playing with people's futures and they must get it right all the time. Whatever way you view these results only 7 people out of 25 are happy with the fairness, 18 out of 25 are to varying degrees not happy. This should concern everyone. If they were doctors with a 7/25 pass rate it would be splashed all over the next days front pages.

People in this thread go on about "they have a difficult job etc etc "...why do they have a difficult job??. Lots of jobs are difficult, doctors, nurses, dentists, teachers, politicians, pilots ... ECO's get proper training and their job is no more difficult than many others. Unfortunately no amount of training can remove the viciousness and bias out of their minds , and that seems to be 2 of the key criteria to being an ECO ...oh yes .. i forgot ..together with complete rudeness as well.

I have often said that there are fair ECO's in the Embassy ,indeed i have often been the beneficiary of them.My complaint is that there are far too many unfair ones and there is little check on their powers. The naive ones here keep saying that every refusal is checked and they are answerable to their senior officer. Many lawyers have told me its actually like an old boys club where everyone backs up their friends. One refuses and the senior officer rubber stamps it . To believe each refusal is properly checked against all the evidence is as naive as saying you actually believe what they put on their website as the criteria for getting a visa. Getting a visa is made to sound so easy , but the reality is so different. There should be rigid rules applied to everyone equally by each ECO. You either pass or fail on the rules and if you do meet them then the visa should be automatic...not at the whim of how the ECO may see your evidence.

SILOMFAN

[the gent]

Silomfan,

I rather think you are the naif here.

Judging visa applications is not a forensic science. The applicant has not actually done anything which can be examined, assessed and then nicely weighed in some quasi court of law. He/she is simply submitting a statement of intentions in support of which evidence can be adduced to satisfy the ECO that the relevant criteria dictated by the rules have been met.Anyone with any nous can engineer an application that at face value meets the requirements of the rules. Thus, the task of the ECO is to assess the credibility of those intentions, a process which I surmise is more of an art form than anything else and consequently a certain degree of subjectivity can creep in. But there is no other practicable alternative.

Your suggestion is only operable within a quota system which is in itself quite arbitrary and inherently unfair.

Finally, I think you place too much weight upon comments from lawyers and MPs.In my experience, they have much in common with your average virus, they exist on the margins of life and live only to survive.

[Dragonman]

The naive ones here keep saying that every refusal is checked and they are answerable to their senior officer. Many lawyers have told me its actually like an old boys club where everyone backs up their friends. One refuses and the senior officer rubber stamps it . To believe each refusal is properly checked against all the evidence is as naive as saying you actually believe what they put on their website as the criteria for getting a visa. Getting a visa is made to sound so easy , but the reality is so different. There should be rigid rules applied to everyone equally by each ECO. You either pass or fail on the rules and if you do meet them then the visa should be automatic...not at the whim of how the ECO may see your evidence.

SILOMFAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course each refusal is not checked by a Senoir Officer! It would be checked however when a complaint is made, to ensure the ECO is working within written Guidelines. Even if within the guidelines, the ECO's personal thoughts come into play, and quite rightly so, as otherwise a computer could assess all applications. There must be some judgement allowed. The "old boys club" system is more about not washing your dirty linen in public, and does not mean that if 100 people complain about the same ECO ( not 1 person 100 times) that there will not be serious questions at annual appraisal.

All in all I am roughly agreeing with the gent, even though I formerly existed on the margins of life Still doesn't stop me thinking the majority are ill mannered and drown in their own concept of self importance however.

[GU22]

Whatever Silomfan thinks or says about the ECOs one fact remains; last year a massive 39,938 visa applications were successful, that's 94.1% of applications. If the ECOs are as capricious as Silomfan asserts, one would expect that figure to be much lower.

ECOs are not perfect, they are only human after all, so they can and do make mistakes. I personally know of several instances where a visa has been initially refused, only for that refusal to be overturned following a review by the ECM. So the many lawyers and MPs who have told Silomfan that the refusal will merely be rubber stamped are wrong. I also know of one case where a sponsor got his MP involved, only to be told by said MP that given the facts presented to the ECO, the refusal was correct.

There's the rub. The ECOs can only base their opinion on the evidence presented to them. If the applicant doesn't present all the evidence, then the ECOs job is much more difficult. Again, I know of a case where th applicant and sponsor went the full appeal route. The appeal was rejected, not because they didn't have a case, but because they had not presented all the evidence at the initial application! The appeal decision was that based upon the information supplied with the application, the refusal was correct.

All of which only reinforces my belief that in the vast majority of cases, refusals are down to the applicant/sponsor getting the application wrong.

BTW, it is not that I wish to defend the ECOs at all costs, as Silomfan suggests, rather it is that I wish to ensure that as many people as possible are successful in their applications by making sure they have prepared properly and meet the criteria. Getting on one's high horse and wailing that refusals are because of the bastard ECOs doesn't help anyone. Advising people how to make sure that their applications meet the criteria does. That's my view, anyway.

Edited December 11, 2005 by GU22

[samran]

Whatever Silomfan thinks or says about the ECOs one fact remains; last year a massive 39,938 visa applications were successful, that's 94.1% of applications. If the ECOs are as capricious as Silomfan asserts, one would expect that figure to be much lower.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All it means is that many of the posters here hang out with the 5.9% of applicants that don't do so well.

[vinny]

I rather liked the comments (in bold) made by Peter Knight, printed in the Bangkok Post Postbag on 06/12/2005:

British Embassy (the ongoing saga)

I totally agree with the letters in POSTBag with reference to the attitude of the staff at the British Embassy in Bangkok.

On submitting correct and complete documentation for my long-time partner's third holiday visa to the UK, I too was very rudely addressed by a young, officious and arrogant Brit.

I reminded him that he represented our Queen and I would not be spoken to like that. I had no further problems.

Incidentally I wonder if our Ambassador reads the Bangkok Post?

PETER KNIGHT

Rangsit

[silomfan]

I rather liked the comments (in bold) made by Peter Knight, printed in the Bangkok Post Postbag on 06/12/2005:

British Embassy (the ongoing saga)

I totally agree with the letters in POSTBag with reference to the attitude of the staff at the British Embassy in Bangkok.

On submitting correct and complete documentation for my long-time partner's third holiday visa to the UK, I too was very rudely addressed by a young, officious and arrogant Brit.

I reminded him that he represented our Queen and I would not be spoken to like that. I had no further problems.

Incidentally I wonder if our Ambassador reads the Bangkok Post?

PETER KNIGHT

Rangsit

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They get away with this outrageous behaviour day in day out. There is no-one to check them . Each backs up the other and only repeated serious complaints to both the ECM(Manager) and UK Visas in the UK plus letters to ones UK MP's just may, one day, force an attitude change. Unfortunately no amount of complaining will take the spitefulness out of them because that is part of their nature , and until there is some real check on their power it will continue as it does now.

You can present a perfectly genuine application but if they want to refuse they can always find something. No reason to return always works if all else fails . And thats it. They have the power and all you can do is appeal (takes many many months) . Is that fair ?

SILOMFAN