Renunciation Of Thai Nationality

[TCsucker]

Hi All here, i'm new here and I 'm seeking for your advise,

Let me explain the situation,

I am a permanent resident in Hong Kong who moved from Thailand for 7-8 years and I am 22 years old.

My dad is Chinese who holds Hong Kong passport and my mum is Thai has Thai passport.

I have no plan to stay in Thailand anymore, I haven't return since the last time when i go back to make the ID card at the age of 15

I'm settling in Hong Kong, my family is all here, Dad, mum, sister and brother....

so it would ruins my life if i have to go back due to military obligation, as nth is there for me,

now.. the problem comes when i'm at this age... you know military service.

in fact, i actually plan to change my nationality to Chinese following my dad. But when I went to HK immigration, the officer has told us that "yes, they can process the application for me , but it is more complicated than just that. as the Thai immigration should take a long time to process this... and end up the rejection without explanation." Therefore the HK immigration officer advise me to contact the Thai embassy in Hong Kong first.

So I make a call to them and explain the situation that I would like to renounce the Thai nationality. I explained it to the ambassador, she told me that I still can declaring the nationality But it would take a long time like 8-10 years??? no one can actually confirm how long it takes, beside that the valid date of my passport is in 2015. and.... declaring for 8 years???? and where am i suppose to live another few years and after 8 years taken, it might even result for rejection.

i am very frustrated right now. I try to seek the way out for freedom,

would Lawyer able to help me such a case?

please help me out,

Trin

[Mario2008]

Do you really need to rebounce your nationality? If you are not in Thailand, you don't have to report for conscription. Once you turn 30 you would not be called upon anymore, but must pay a small fine of soemthing like 500 baht for not registring for conscription.

If really want or need to renounce your Thai nationality, you should go to the embassy and make a declaration that you wish to renounce your nationality. There are forms to do so. I' don't know how long the process will take, but believe it needs to be approved by the Thai minister of interior. That could take months, but doubt it will take years.

You will be a Thai national till your application is approved. In future you can regain your Thai nationality.

I move this topic to the Thai visa section.

[TCsucker]

Do you really need to rebounce your nationality? If you are not in Thailand, you don't have to report for conscription. Once you turn 30 you would not be called upon anymore, but must pay a small fine of soemthing like 500 baht for not registring for conscription.

Thank for your respond Mario2008

Well,, the only reason that I would like to renounce Thai is due to Military obligation, as I only have Thai passport and can't obtain dual citizenship in HK, so it seems that naturalizing Chinese would be one of the option,

the ambassador told me that if I didn't go back for Military draft, I have to stay in HK until 45 years old, well yeah, i 've read the forum in here mentioning at the age of 30 then you wouldn't be called, so i'm not sure which is exactly right,

If really want or need to renounce your Thai nationality, you should go to the embassy and make a declaration that you wish to renounce your nationality. There are forms to do so. I' don't know how long the process will take, but believe it needs to be approved by the Thai minister of interior. That could take months, but doubt it will take years.

Is there any restriction that person can't changing their nationality due to some issue like "military serve" or "owning land" something like that

well, I haven't go back there to report myself as one that will serve military , so I don't if that's ok or not,

[Time Traveller]

Thai beaurocracy is filled with many jealous people and make comments that are not based in fact. If you want to renounce your citizenship, don't tell them because you want to avoid military service. Tell them because you need to so that you can gain Chinese citizenship like your father.

[samran]

Do you really need to rebounce your nationality? If you are not in Thailand, you don't have to report for conscription. Once you turn 30 you would not be called upon anymore, but must pay a small fine of soemthing like 500 baht for not registring for conscription.

Thank for your respond Mario2008

Well,, the only reason that I would like to renounce Thai is due to Military obligation, as I only have Thai passport and can't obtain dual citizenship in HK, so it seems that naturalizing Chinese would be one of the option,

the ambassador told me that if I didn't go back for Military draft, I have to stay in HK until 45 years old, well yeah, i 've read the forum in here mentioning at the age of 30 then you wouldn't be called, so i'm not sure which is exactly right,

If really want or need to renounce your Thai nationality, you should go to the embassy and make a declaration that you wish to renounce your nationality. There are forms to do so. I' don't know how long the process will take, but believe it needs to be approved by the Thai minister of interior. That could take months, but doubt it will take years.

Is there any restriction that person can't changing their nationality due to some issue like "military serve" or "owning land" something like that

well, I haven't go back there to report myself as one that will serve military , so I don't if that's ok or not,

Neither Mario nor the Ambassador are wrong, but they are speaking about seperate issues.

Strictly speaking, the rules for conscription say something along the lines that if you can't report before you turn 30, you must send someone as a proxy to report for you (if possible). This suits you are you are overseas so can't report yourself, and presumably don't have family members to go for you (this was the case in my situation).

If post 30, you must report by yourself.

However, post 30, you will automatically be released into the 'Kong Kern' basically, the army reserve list. Strictly speaking, all males between 20 and 45 years of age not actively serving are army reservists, though this doesn't require you to do anything, except in the highly unlikely event of war. Even then, they class the reservists in accordance to level of desirablility. When I reported at 30 years of age, I was immediately exempted and put into the second class, second division (ie towards the bottom) of the reserve pool, which is likely what is going too happen to you.

At 45, you are released from the reserve pool, though effectively, once you turn 30 you are free and clear.

If I were you, unless HK law requires you to renounce your Thai citizenship to become a HK SAR passport holder, then I wouldn't.

You may find in future as you grow older that having a Thai passport serves some sort of purpose, perhaps you may want to purchase land in Thailand or go back and set up a business there - all things that are harder for non-Thai's. Your kids will automatically be Thai citizens, so it may provide some benefit to them. Of course at the moment that isn't on your list of priorities, but priorities change as life goes on, so maintaining your options is important.

Edited January 31, 2012 by samran

[oldsailor35]

That is very good advice Samran, i really hope he decides to listen to it. As you say, our priorities change as we get older. What for instance if he marries a Thai and wishes to settle down in Thailand. If he has renounced his Thai nationality there would be hugh problems which he has unwittingly caused himself. No i think it better that he takes the same path as you.

Good luck TC.

[TCsucker]

Than Samran, so basically, when im at the age of 30, and suppose i go back to Thailand at that time, I wouldn't get caught by someone at the airport as my name would automatically release from the reserve pool?

and yeah, my passport will only last for 2015 and i guess i wudn't able to renew, that would be the problem if I decide not to return to report myself before 2015

and that's why I think I may declare of changing nationality as if I can get the Chinese passport then I will be able to travel to other countries in the future however if I don't renounce Thai nationality, meaning my passport will only last in 2015 and ....after then.... I wouldn't able to go anywhere, just only have to stay in HK for another 5 years until i'm 30 =_=, that's a hard decision,

[Mario2008]

You can still renew your passport.

[TCsucker]

You can still renew your passport.

The embassy told me that after once extension which is just 5 years period, then if i try to renew again, the procedure of renewing passport is that they will send my passport back to Thailand, and somehow if they see that i havn't go back and report myself, i may not able to get back the passport as the immigration may not return?

anyone have the same experience ??

[samran]

What the embassy told you was straight out wrong.

Showing your military exemption forms when applying for a passport hasn't been a requirement for more than a decade.

Furthermore, Thai immigration and the military simply don't share data. You can come and go as you please to Thailand etc for holiday anytime you like.

It is only when you return to Thailand to live full time should you look to get your military conscription issues sorted.

I say this from experience.

[Arkady]

First of all ignore the advice from the Thai Consulate. Most of the lower level Thai diplomatic staff are idiots with good enough connections to get them plum overseas postings but they are too far lazy to inform themselves of the regulations and have no interest in serving ordinary members of the public. However, when Thaksin popped into the consulate in HK for a quickie divorce, they jumped through hoops for him!

A very similar issue came up into another thread. From what I recall: 1) The HKSAR passport for Hong Kong people is much more useful than a Chinese passport - it enables you travel without visa to many more countries, including Canada, the UK and many other European countries; 2) many people seem to get HKSAR passports without renouncing other nationalities, as I don't think they check, even if you are required to make a declaration; 3) definitely no need to worry about the military service issue in Thailand, if you don't intend to live there full time until after you're 30.

Renouncing Thai nationality probably involves almost as much paperwork and hassle as applying for it. There is really no point in doing this, unless you need the nationality of a country like Germany, Singapore, Taiwan or Korea where they really check your renunciation certificate. This doesn't seem to be the case for an HKSAR passport. So why bother?

[Time Traveller]

Also many countries require applicants for jobs within the government that they are not dual citizens. Dual citizens have many benefits but it can also exclude you from certain jobs.

[PoorSucker]

Also many countries require applicants for jobs within the government that they are not dual citizens. Dual citizens have many benefits but it can also exclude you from certain jobs.

Please specify...

[ludditeman]

Also many countries require applicants for jobs within the government that they are not dual citizens. Dual citizens have many benefits but it can also exclude you from certain jobs.

How would they know, if you don't tell them?

[samran]

Also many countries require applicants for jobs within the government that they are not dual citizens. Dual citizens have many benefits but it can also exclude you from certain jobs.

Australia for certain is one, especially jobs with a security focus. No most jobs, but the occasional one.

How would they know, if you don't tell them?

Background checks are done all the time, plus it is very easy to track international movements. You'll probably sign a document swearing/attesting to the fact. So 'not telling them' isn't an option.

Edited February 18, 2012 by samran

[Soutpeel]

Also many countries require applicants for jobs within the government that they are not dual citizens. Dual citizens have many benefits but it can also exclude you from certain jobs.

Please specify...

Yes please do clarify this, you are somehow inferring that a dual citizen has less rights than a citizen of a particular country, and this is absolutely not the case

[samran]

From:

Citizenship in the Australian Public Service

2.9 Holders of dual citizenship

Some Australian citizens also hold citizenship of another country. This is known as dual citizenship. If a person in this position can demonstrate evidence of Australian citizenship, they can be engaged as an APS employee, regardless of other citizenship they may hold at the same time.

Dual citizenship may, however, cause other employment-related issues to arise, for example, if the person is required to obtain a security clearance or to work in an area where their dual citizenship could be seen as giving rise to a conflict of interest. Agency heads will therefore need to be aware of, and manage effectively, recruitment to sensitive jobs. In situations where specific qualifications such as a security clearance are required, agencies should ensure that the person has the necessary clearance before being engaged.

[Time Traveller]

Also many countries require applicants for jobs within the government that they are not dual citizens. Dual citizens have many benefits but it can also exclude you from certain jobs.

Please specify...

Yes please do clarify this, you are somehow inferring that a dual citizen has less rights than a citizen of a particular country, and this is absolutely not the case

Not less rights. But as Samran said some (not all) positions that require national security clearance exclude dual nationals - in Australia and USA for example. Also includes the defense industry (private) contractors within USA exclude dual nationals. It's one reason some people could see for deciding on renounciation, but if that is not your area of work then this would not factor into your decison

Edited February 18, 2012 by Time Traveller

[Douggie Style]

"some (not all) positions that require national security clearance exclude dual nationals - in Australia and USA for example"

Sorry gents..thats just plainly incorrect...at least for Australia....

you might be confusing the security vetting process where they obviously consider many factors but there isn't any formal exclusion...

[samran]

Douggie.

Aust embassy in Thailand from time to time posts vacancies. Anything which requires security clearance clearly states that successful applicants can not hold Thai/Australian dual citizenship for those roles.

[Douggie Style]

Hi Samran,

I can see your point however...my answer was to a different question being;

"some (not all) positions that require national security clearance exclude dual nationals - in Australia and USA for example"

I don't think the examples you cite were excluded on grounds of dual nationality.

There is a security vetting process which covers practical matters including conflicts of interest not to be confused with being excluded per se on the basis of dual nationality.

For example from the same rules you cite;

Dual citizenship may, however, cause other employment-related issues to arise, for example, if the person is required to obtain a security clearance or to work in an area where their dual citizenship could be seen as giving rise to a conflict of interest.

They are speaking of ‘employment-related issues‘ such as a ‘a conflict of interest.' not broad exclusions based on dual nationality.

In the embassy example, employees cannot hold Thai citizenship on the basis of an actual conflict of interest..for example how could you decided impartially on a visa for a fellow Thai citizen eg no different to a registered tax agent being excluded from the tax office or a migration agent from the immigration department...on the practical basis of a conflict of interest not any broad security clearance issues with dual citizens

Edited February 25, 2012 by Douggie Style

[TerryLH]

"Aust embassy in Thailand from time to time posts vacancies. Anything which requires security clearance clearly states that successful applicants can not hold Thai/Australian dual citizenship for those roles."

But that same person could hold the same job description in another country, just not Thailand?

The US Peace Corps does the same thing. They won't post you to a country you're a citizen of.

Terry

[Richard W]

I've been told by a UK citizen that I know that if he obtained a Pakistani passport, to which he is entitled, it would cost him his UK security clearance. He also told me of a case where someone had to renounce Pakistani citizenship to retain his job when the authorities became aware that he had held a Pakistani passport.

[madjbs]

i am very frustrated right now. I try to seek the way out for freedom,

would Lawyer able to help me such a case?

please help me out,

OP, I strongly advise you to listen to Samrans advice here. He has always been the number one poster on these forums regarding these issues. You would also be well advised to listen to peoples advice who have already been through and dealt with your problems (i.e samran again) rather than lawyers and embassy staff who have not actually had to deal with these things directly themselves.

[garychoi]

Firstly, I would like to express my deeply appreciation to Samran for his useful posts and I finally got my Thai ID and Passport too.

However, it is a little bit different for my case that Military Senior Officer advised that I am already 30 and it won't be called up anymore.

They even didn't register for me and no any exemption letter was issued to me. They directly asked me to apply for Passport and it didn't cause any issue.

I hope my reply will not be too late for you.

Due to one country two systems, you have to refer to both China Nationality Law and HK Law.

In China Nationality Law, it doesn't allow dual Nationality. But there is an additional Law - 19th Session of the Standing Committee of the 8th National People’s Congress which said Chinese nationals of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region with right of abode in foreign countries may, for the purpose of travelling to other countries and territories, use the relevant documents issued by the foreign governments. However, they will not be entitled to consular protection in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and other parts of the People’s Republic of China on account of their holding the above mentioned documents.

Therefore, it is a grey area to allow Dual Nationality.

However, this is only applied to those getting the Chinese National by birth. But not for those who are going to get the Chinese National by naturalisation.

You need to be careful that the children born overseas with a HK parent would not automatically grant them the Chinese National.

It depends on Article 5: Any person born abroad whose parents are both Chinese nationals or one of whose parents is a Chinese national shall have Chinese nationality. But a person whose parents are both Chinese nationals and have both settled abroad, or one of whose parents is a Chinese national and has settled abroad, and who has acquired foreign nationality at birth shall not have Chinese nationality.

Therefore, you have to prove that your dad (a Chinese National with HK ID card) was not settled in Thailand when you born!

eg he is getting Travel VISA or Working Visa to visit Thailand.

In case your dad is also a Thai PR, it will be a trouble to you as you have to prove that Thai PR is not a real settlement . Settlement means Royal Thai Government didn't apply any condition to him when he is staying in Thailand.

If your dad is settled in Thai, then you can only get Chinese National via naturalisation. It will take around 8000 HKD for application and it will be in two phases. 1st phase to review your application, if they allow you to be Chinese National. They will issue you an certificate.

In phase 2, you have to give up your original National and get the proof back to HK IMMD, then they will continue to process your aplication and issue you the HKSAR passport. (Article 8: Any person who applies for naturalisation as a Chinese national shall acquire Chinese nationality upon approval of his application; a person whose application for naturalisation as a Chinese national has been approved shall not retain foreign nationality.)

However, it is not really easy to get the Chinese National via naturalisation due to the Article 7 below. Also, it seems that it takes many years to renounce their Thai National. If you can't get the renouncement cerification from Thai Government, then you never can go via the phase 2 of application.

Article 7: Foreign nationals or stateless persons who are willing to abide by China’s Constitution and laws and who meet one of the following conditions may be naturalised upon approval of their applications:

they are near relatives of Chinese nationals;

they have settled in China; or

they have other legitimate reasons.

Good Luck mate

[Mario2008]

Thanks for your imformattive post.

In China Nationality Law, it doesn't allow dual Nationality. But there is an additional Law - 19th Session of the Standing Committee of the 8th National People’s Congress which said Chinese nationals of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region with right of abode in foreign countries may, for the purpose of travelling to other countries and territories, use the relevant documents issued by the foreign governments. However, they will not be entitled to consular protection in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and other parts of the People’s Republic of China on account of their holding the above mentioned documents.

If you hold dual nationality under that exemption you are within China only considered a Chinese national, not also a national of the other country. That means you cannot claim consular assistence from your other country in case of any problems with the Chinese law. Such provision is not uncommon and practise in a lot of countries.