moe666 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 What about what he said, he said exactly what he was told to say by Big T. If anyone thinks these were Amsterdams opinions then I have some swamp land in Issaan I will sale with full canote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folium Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Maybe I just don't get it. 3 pages and endless to and fro about Thaksin and barely a word about the original statement that implied that Thailand is in effect a military run country, thus little different politically to Myanmar. Isn't that what should be discussed or is it all too tricky? Edited February 7, 2012 by folium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfriendu Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I will let the readers decide. well it looks like the score is 20-0 so far and you seem to pick which posts you read and put your head in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 "..........asserting that the numbers voting for them (PTP) would increase if an election was called tomorrow or that the voters are even more solidly behind the governement is just speculation on your part. But I stand firmly behind this speculation. Let's save this message and talk again after the next election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 "..........asserting that the numbers voting for them (PTP) would increase if an election was called tomorrow or that the voters are even more solidly behind the governement is just speculation on your part. But I stand firmly behind this speculation. Let's save this message and talk again after the next election. I thought is was 'fact'. Sorry, your Jedi mind tricks need a bit of polish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moe666 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Maybe I just don't get it. 3 pages and endless to and fro about Thaksin and barely a word about the original statement that implied that Thailand is in effect a military run country, thus little different politically to Myanmar. Isn't that what should be discussed or is it all too tricky? The OP was one of Big Ts proxies saying what he has been paid to regurgatate. Yes the army has a certain amout of influence but a good counter weight aganist a fully in charge PTP with Big T actually running the government thru his sister.Give them everything they want and we have Marcos 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I will let the readers decide. We are now the electorate? Things are looking up for Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The Reds accepted Aphisit's offer of early elections - Thaksin overrode it. The Reds accepted Aphisit's terms for the reconciliation process - Thaksin overrode it. What does that tell you? An offer is not an agreement. In negotiations, an offer is subject to: #1 - Acceptance #2 - rejection #3 - counter offer #4 - Acceptance with modification The UDD/Red Shirts responded to Abhi's with #4 In hindsight, the offer was a "mafia' offer, to which only #1 was acceptable to those making the offer. The internal dynamics of any negotiation team are not the business of the opposite. Their only responsibility is to respond to the reaction to their offer........#4 in this case. Abhi chose not to do so in true 'mafia' offer style, with identical results. With respect to the reconciliation process, again internal dynamics of one side are not important. Only the positions of negotiating entities. Message - not messenger, is the crux of negotiations. Utter nonsense. Zero credilbility mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Now after the floods all has changed and the Army was always there to help Thaskin was no where to be seen Nothing has changed The army was there to help, and they had better have been. To try and equate a salaried state entity, conducting state assigned duties, while accumulating pensionable service,.......... with volunteerism is incorrect. The UDD/Red Shirts singlehandedly did more than any other organized force in the country, to provide flood assistance to BKK. I was personally wittness to seven (7) trips to Bangkok, involving sixteen (16) truckloads of stuff. Not pick-ups, but dumptruck equivelants. The operation at Don Muang was excellent, in spite of the Opposition trying to use it to denigrate the Govt, with their incessant FROC-flogging. To say that a non-volunteer force did everything and volunteerism did nothing, is a gross indecency. Edited February 7, 2012 by CalgaryII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonableman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) CalgaryII, on 12 minutes ago, said: "..........asserting that the numbers voting for them (PTP) would increase if an election was called tomorrow or that the voters are even more solidly behind the governement is just speculation on your part. But I stand firmly behind this speculation. Let us speculate that the moon is made of blue/green cheese, and let us speculate that what you speculate is a fantasy of wishful speculation coupled with historical revisionism. Just speculating, however with great conviction, oh and my conviction is bigger and firmer than yours. Edited February 7, 2012 by Reasonableman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Do you really believe that if you removed the army from the equation that the current administration would become less corrupt ? I beg to differ sir, I think it would be open season on the nations assets. That was proven to be the actual case in 2006.............I will leave you to make the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The UDD/Red Shirts singlehandedly did more than any other organized force in the country, to provide flood assistance to BKK. Presumably the army are an organised force. Are you saying the UDD/Red Shirts did more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonableman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Now after the floods all has changed and the Army was always there to help Thaskin was no where to be seen Nothing has changed The army was there to help, and they had better have been. To try and equate a salaried state entity, conducting state assigned duties, while accumulating pensionable service,.......... with volunteerism is incorrect. The UDD/Red Shirts singlehandedly did more than any other organized force in the country, to provide flood assistance to BKK. I was personally wittness to seven (7) trips to Bangkok, involving sixteen (16) truckloads of stuff. Not pick-ups, but dumptruck equivelants. The operation at Don Muang was excellent, in spite of the Opposition trying to use it to denigrate the Govt, with their incessant FROC-flogging. To say that a non-volunteer force did everything and volunteerism did nothing, is a gross indecency. I'm afraid that all I saw of them was red-clad guys cruising ostentatiously around Ratchaprasong on their motorcycles trying to cadge "donations" from the same people they tried to incinerate. Good luck with that! Otherwise, they were notable by their absence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm afraid that all I saw of them was red-clad guys cruising ostentatiously around Ratchaprasong on their motorcycles trying to cadge "donations" from the same people they tried to incinerate. Good luck with that! Otherwise, they were notable by their absence. They did have their boats "for red shirts only". And they did load their trucks with publicly donated goods "with Love from Thaksin". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Are you saying that the electorate voted for Thaksin or Yingluck? Both. And they did it knowingly. Do you think they voted for the person or the handouts? Well, they didn't vote for Abhi and friends, who desparately tried to emulate the PTP when they realized they were going down the electoral tubes. Cronies are friends and relatives appointed to senior positions based on who they are not on their capabilities. See the Marcos and Castro families for example. Political appointees after an electoral victory are not cronies. They are like-minded people. This goes as much for Abhi. with his Kasit (as an example) as for Ms. Y. and Red Shirts. The spoils of electoral victories if you will. Your knowledge of English precludes you from understanding the finer points of some of my comments I'm afraid.Hopefully my answers rectify that for you. If you think the handling of the floods was "exemplary" then that tells me something...... Good. I have had two people provide examples of international locxations whose disaster relief efforts matched what Ms. Y and Thailand did. Thanks to those who came up with them. Judging Ms. Y and Thailand's performance can only be measured against other national entities faced with similar disasters. Just to say it was bad, without applying a standard to measure it against, is just so much Opposition folderol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfriendu Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Now after the floods all has changed and the Army was always there to help Thaskin was no where to be seen Nothing has changed The army was there to help, and they had better have been. To try and equate a salaried state entity, conducting state assigned duties, while accumulating pensionable service,.......... with volunteerism is incorrect. The UDD/Red Shirts singlehandedly did more than any other organized force in the country, to provide flood assistance to BKK. I was personally wittness to seven (7) trips to Bangkok, involving sixteen (16) truckloads of stuff. Not pick-ups, but dumptruck equivelants. The operation at Don Muang was excellent, in spite of the Opposition trying to use it to denigrate the Govt, with their incessant FROC-flogging. To say that a non-volunteer force did everything and volunteerism did nothing, is a gross indecency. lol utter factless crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Rather than discuss Mr. Amsterdam, how about some attention be given to his statement. Do people agree or disagree with this; The Yingluck administration is not fully in charge of this country. We all know it. We all know the Army has a veto over what happens here. Let's not pretend. And therefore I understand that were this government to [sack General Prayuth], it would be removed militarily without hesitation," he said. Nevertheless he wished Prayuth could be removed I agree with him. The military is still calling the plays and that is why there cannot be any progress on key issues such as corruption. You might want to inform Thaksin that he is not running the government. Think of all the money it would save the MPs they wouldn't have to leave the country to get appointed t a ministerial role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonableman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Historical revisionism is conducted to influence a target’s ideology and/or politics for a particular purpose. Revisionists understand Plato’s dictum that, “those who tell the stories also hold the power.” Sometimes the purpose is as innocent as wanting to sell more books or attract attention with a startling headline. Often, however, that purpose is to achieve a nation’s aims by transferring war guilt, demonizing an enemy, providing an illusion of victory, or preserving friendship. James McPherson, President of the American Historical Association in 2003, wrote that some would want revisionist history understood as, “a consciously falsified or distorted interpretation of the past to serve partisan or ideological purposes in the present.” Broadly understood, there are two motivations behind revisionist history: the ability to control ideological influence and to control political influence. Most (if not all) of the techniques used in historical revisionism are used for the purpose of deception and/or denial. The specific techniques of historical revisionism vary from using forged documents as genuine sources (or inventing reasons to distrust genuine documents), to exploiting opinions by taking them out of their historical context... revisionists rewrite history to support an agenda, and often use logical fallacies to obtain the desired results. Because historical revisionism can be used to deny, deceive, or influence explanations and perceptions, it can be regarded as a technique of propaganda. Finally, techniques of historical revisionism operate within the intellectual battlespace in order to advance an interpretation or perception of history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 What about what he said, he said exactly what he was told to say by Big T. If anyone thinks these were Amsterdams opinions then I have some swamp land in Issaan I will sale with full canote Never mind whose opinions they are, what about them? To dismiss them is to dismiss the views of a huge swath of the Thai electorate. To do so, is done at one's own political peril, as the Democrat Party found out in the last election. So dismiss them if you will, but know that they reflect the views of the majority who elect Governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I will let the readers decide. well it looks like the score is 20-0 so far and you seem to pick which posts you read and put your head in the sand. 20 - 0 huh! But who reflects the electoral majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I will let the readers decide. We are now the electorate? Things are looking up for Thailand. We are most assuredly not the electorate. Us Farangs are nuthin...zippo....inconsequential dolts when it come to Thai politics. Doesn't stop us political junkies from spouting off though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folium Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Maybe I just don't get it. 3 pages and endless to and fro about Thaksin and barely a word about the original statement that implied that Thailand is in effect a military run country, thus little different politically to Myanmar. Isn't that what should be discussed or is it all too tricky? The OP was one of Big Ts proxies saying what he has been paid to regurgatate. Yes the army has a certain amout of influence but a good counter weight aganist a fully in charge PTP with Big T actually running the government thru his sister.Give them everything they want and we have Marcos 2. So you are saying it's fine to have an unaccountable military, with the right to stage a coup whenever their economic/personal power is threatened. It's fine to have a military who appear to at least tolerate freelance drug trafficking and timber extraction by its personnel, who are implicated in the recent murder of Chinese sailors/drug traffickers, who have a brutal way of dealing with Burmese migrants, who have a "robust", bordering on extra-judicial, style of crowd control as seen in April 2010 and May 1992. All this and more because the ruling political party chosen by the majority of voters (given the vote-rigging and general vote-buying of course) needs to be "kept in check". I'm no Thaksin or any other politico's apologist but simply someone who sees no place for a military in running a country. It's bad for the country, its people and ironically even bad for the military as can be seen in their inept performance in the southern provinces, the spate of helicopter accidents and the farce of recent hardware shopping. Edited February 7, 2012 by folium 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Maybe I just don't get it. 3 pages and endless to and fro about Thaksin and barely a word about the original statement that implied that Thailand is in effect a military run country, thus little different politically to Myanmar. Isn't that what should be discussed or is it all too tricky? You haven't seen me mention Thaksin once (except for now) Thaksin and Thaksin haters bore me. Also the Mod said to stay on topic and quit bringing Ms. Y's brother into this thing. Good for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Amsterdam is funded by Yingluck's elder brother, convicted and fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra". How's it smell in sphinkterville, Robbie? Sell your soul lately? Perhaps it would be more fruitful to focus on the message instead of the messenger, esp[ecially when in this case Judiciaql actions following the coup are subject to serious scrutiny regarding validity. When the Army was defending itself against people who threatened the security of the country by threatening to burn down the capital and lob grenades, it is their duty to protect! Political negotiation would have solved everything. Even after the protesters were trying to be ignored out of existence Most people regard the feeble efforts of "fightback" by the demonstrators against the coup perps as fully justified - not anti-social, not anarchic - but fully justified when confronting the force assertions from the coup perps. trying to enforce their undemocratic power grab. You continue to post information that is not true and as usual you show your ignorance of Thailand. The terrorists were against the Democrats not the army and the two Governments that followed them. Get some one to read it to you it is well recorded. Explain how they gained any thing against the coup makers by invading a hospital? O please enlighten us all. Yes they were martyrs they even used their children as shields. You are in good company with them. Answer me this why did they have to import the martyrs from area's with a very low education. There was millions in Bangkok. Yet they had caravans coming from Issan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The Reds accepted Aphisit's offer of early elections - Thaksin overrode it. The Reds accepted Aphisit's terms for the reconciliation process - Thaksin overrode it. What does that tell you? An offer is not an agreement. In negotiations, an offer is subject to: #1 - Acceptance #2 - rejection #3 - counter offer #4 - Acceptance with modification The UDD/Red Shirts responded to Abhi's with #4 In hindsight, the offer was a "mafia' offer, to which only #1 was acceptable to those making the offer. The internal dynamics of any negotiation team are not the business of the opposite. Their only responsibility is to respond to the reaction to their offer........#4 in this case. Abhi chose not to do so in true 'mafia' offer style, with identical results. With respect to the reconciliation process, again internal dynamics of one side are not important. Only the positions of negotiating entities. Message - not messenger, is the crux of negotiations. Utter nonsense. Zero credilbility mate. Many would disagree with you Moruya. I stand behind every word of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Rather than discuss Mr. Amsterdam, how about some attention be given to his statement. Do people agree or disagree with this; The Yingluck administration is not fully in charge of this country. We all know it. We all know the Army has a veto over what happens here. Let's not pretend. And therefore I understand that were this government to [sack General Prayuth], it would be removed militarily without hesitation," he said. Nevertheless he wished Prayuth could be removed I agree with him. The military is still calling the plays and that is why there cannot be any progress on key issues such as corruption. You may be right, and then there's nepotism and cronyism, let's not forget those. Or do they fall within the definition of corruption in your book? VERY widespread in LOS, don't you agree? I think we are all fed up with the corruption, including nepotism. However, keep in mind that what we westerners may consider nepotism is part of the culture in Asia, where children and family members join a successful relative in the "trade". The fact of the matter is that as long as politicians, are obliged to pay 'tribute" to the military, the country can't move forward. And that includes the former PM Thaksin who had to keep the military happy. One of the reasons why some family members will obtain key policy or military positions is because the person appointing them hopes they won't put a political knife in his/her back. What I would love to see is a complete listing of all the real estate including land occupied by resorts that the military owns. It would be an eye opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The question here is why anyone should pay any attention to a man who is hired by the opposition to run noise for them. Mister Amsterdam, when you have a government that is being run by the Shinawatra family, its extended family including the Damapongs, friends and other crony assiciates of your clients, you do not have democracy. If this sorry collection of paid individuals performed well for the country in a matter, say, similar to Singapore then that could possibly be overlooked. But it doesn't. If the cabinet had performed from the kick-off, we wouldn't have had all these changes (more cronies) but they screwed up whatever they touched. Flooding and post-flood are still disasters. The heros here were the army. So in a world with minsiters every 5 minutes you want the defense of the country in the same basket? Another man with Shinawatra DNA? Maybe someone with Zimbabwean roots? Methinks you and your employers are after the crown jewels Mister Amsterdam Like him or not, he represents the views of a huge electoral block in the country, those responsible for electing Ms. Y. and co. That is why one should pay attention. In spite of all the electoral faults of Thailand, this Govt. was elected, and is Democratic as a result. For Thailand, this is pretty good. This collection of individuals were elected in as fair an election as Thailand can muster. Political appointees after an election are not cronies, but appointees by those who were elected by the people. Next time Abhi. and Co. win an election, they will also appoint people of their own kind - not cronies. But those "crown jewels" won an election and were the choice to govern thailand by a majority of the governed. How the flood was handled was exemplary when compared to how other nations and leaders handled their disasters. Whenever one is inclined to criticise this Govts. handling of the flood disaster, I always ask the question, "which nation and leader did better?' I have never received an answer to that question. JAPAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharp Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Thank god the military are in charge ,better than theses clowns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The UDD/Red Shirts singlehandedly did more than any other organized force in the country, to provide flood assistance to BKK. Presumably the army are an organised force. Are you saying the UDD/Red Shirts did more? Volunteerism vs. non-volunteerism is the issue here. Those who are "paid to do" do not have the same degree of rectitude. Those who are "paid to do", better "do" or they get fired. Public thanks and regard should extend no further than the taxes they pay for the service. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalgaryII Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Now after the floods all has changed and the Army was always there to help Thaskin was no where to be seen Nothing has changed The army was there to help, and they had better have been. To try and equate a salaried state entity, conducting state assigned duties, while accumulating pensionable service,.......... with volunteerism is incorrect. The UDD/Red Shirts singlehandedly did more than any other organized force in the country, to provide flood assistance to BKK. I was personally wittness to seven (7) trips to Bangkok, involving sixteen (16) truckloads of stuff. Not pick-ups, but dumptruck equivelants. The operation at Don Muang was excellent, in spite of the Opposition trying to use it to denigrate the Govt, with their incessant FROC-flogging. To say that a non-volunteer force did everything and volunteerism did nothing, is a gross indecency. I'm afraid that all I saw of them was red-clad guys cruising ostentatiously around Ratchaprasong on their motorcycles trying to cadge "donations" from the same people they tried to incinerate. Good luck with that! Otherwise, they were notable by their absence. WOW! This opinion absolutely stuns me, having witnessed what I witnessed. I cannot bring myself to respond to this one. In fact the opinion is .............. Enuf for this Post from CalgaryII Edited February 7, 2012 by CalgaryII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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