Thai Army Has Veto Power Over Key Issues: Robert Amsterdam

[cloudhopper]

Does Mr Amsterdam understand the hierarchical structure within Thailand? At the top is the royal family, underneath is the armed forces, whose number one responsibility is to protect the royal family, then there is the government and then the people. That is how it is and it won't change. We foreigners may perceive that the structure should be different but many Thais like it the way it is.

Yep that's succinctly how the food chain is structured here. BTW most foreigners reside at the bottom of "the people" group.

[samran]

I didn't need this confirmation, I already gathered as much. Still trying to ignore some posts

Now you know for sure Rubl.

If you ignore any Posts, for heaven's sake ignore CalgaryII

It will be much better for your Political Comfort Zone.

It is very unsettling to have one's conclusions challenged.

The problem is though, the likes of Robert Amsterdam and his fanboy's simply re-inforce my conclusions.

[scorecard]

I didn't need this confirmation, I already gathered as much. Still trying to ignore some posts

Now you know for sure Rubl.

If you ignore any Posts, for heaven's sake ignore CalgaryII

It will be much better for your Political Comfort Zone.

It is very unsettling to have one's conclusions challenged.

The problem is though, the likes of Robert Amsterdam and his fanboy's simply re-inforce my conclusions.

The Japanese are pretty good at rewriting history.

Seems calgaryll and amseterdam would challenge them for first place.

[rubl]

"The Yingluck administration is not fully in charge of this country. We all know it.

After checking on some Pheu Thai MP's who recently traveled abroad, I can confirm that in this case Robert A. is correct in saying 'we know it'. With thanks to k. T. for his valuable input.

Edited February 8, 2012 by rubl

[Insight]

But you haven't really challenged anyone - All things considered, I think I have.

Where? From what I've read, most of your posts are allegedly your own experiences and opinions, which in turn have been challenged. Many of those challenges you're yet to respond to.

[Reasonableman]

The red shirts agreed to Apisit's decision to hold elections in November and then reneged.

Correct.

They agreed, but conditional on some modification, as is the norm in Negotiations. It was not 'reneging' as the Opposition tries to spin it.

Just take the word of an old Labour Negotiator here.

But alas, it was a "Mafia Offer"

Besides. The coup perps were not about to give up their ill-gotten gains, especially to a rabble of Political activists they did not respect, never mind they represented the electoral majority, which they discovered last July.

Can you imagine the frustration of these protesters at being governed by an electoral minority. They knew the reality last year's election demonstrated.

Down with the amart, I'm loving it, its the real thing.

The Seven Commandments are laws that are supposed to keep order and ensure elementary Animalism within Animal Farm. The Seven Commandments were designed to unite the animals together against the humans and prevent animals from following the humans' evil habits. Since not all of the animals can remember them, they are boiled down into one basic statement: "Four legs good, two legs bad!", which the sheep constantly repeat, distracting the crowd from the lies of the pigs. The original commandments were:

• Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
  
• Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
  
• No animal shall wear clothes.
  
• No animal shall sleep in a bed.
  
• No animal shall drink alcohol.
  
• No animal shall kill any other animal.
  
• All animals are equal.
  

Later, Napoleon and his pigs are corrupted by the absolute power they hold over the farm. To maintain their popularity with the other animals, Squealer secretly paints additions to some commandments to benefit the pigs while keeping them free of accusations of law-breaking. The changed commandments are as follows:

• No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets.
  
• No animal shall drink alcohol to excess.
  
• No animal shall kill any other animal without cause.
  

Eventually the laws are replaced with "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", and "Four legs good, two legs better!" as the pigs become more human.

[rockderk]

Army still calls tune in key issues : Amsterdam

.......No shit Sherlock

[ding]

To succeed in other trades, capacity must be shown; in the law, concealment of it will do.

-Twain

[samran]

I didn't need this confirmation, I already gathered as much. Still trying to ignore some posts

Now you know for sure Rubl.

If you ignore any Posts, for heaven's sake ignore CalgaryII

It will be much better for your Political Comfort Zone.

It is very unsettling to have one's conclusions challenged.

The problem is though, the likes of Robert Amsterdam and his fanboy's simply re-inforce my conclusions.

The Japanese are pretty good at rewriting history.

Seems calgaryll and amseterdam would challenge them for first place.

Well the new elite share alot in common with the old elite. One of them is the inablity to debate. It is edict upon high, this time backed up with threat of defamation.

[folium]

Does Mr Amsterdam understand the hierarchical structure within Thailand? At the top is the royal family, underneath is the armed forces, whose number one responsibility is to protect the royal family, then there is the government and then the people. That is how it is and it won't change. We foreigners may perceive that the structure should be different but many Thais like it the way it is.

Yep that's succinctly how the food chain is structured here. BTW most foreigners reside at the bottom of "the people" group.

Meanwhile back on topic...

While the post above describes the picture of the structure as seen on the outside of the tin, inside it's a little different, and what Mr Armstrong is saying is hardly breaking news.

The military coup of 1933 fundamentally changed the nature of political power in this country. While the players stayed the same on the surface to keep up appearances, actual power had shifted dramatically to the military.

This was reinforced in the next 50 years with a succession of military PMs, running what can best be described as a military authoritarian state.

As previously stated this political power went hand in hand with the assumption of significant economic power of both the overt (TMB aka The Military Bank, property development etc) and covert types (logging & narcotics).

As is now being witnessed in Myanmar, once the military had sufficient economic status and are able to ensure through a carefully written constitution plus the threat of action (as has been seen here 12 times since 1933) that their position was unassailable and they would not be held accountable for their actions, they are then relaxed enough to hand over the limelight to men in non-khaki suits, as long as the new boys/girl don't tread on any toes.

Some posters have claimed that the days of military supremacy are over. If that is the case please remind me us what has happened to the instigators/perpetrators of the 1976 or 1992 massacres, of the numerous incidents in the southern provinces or of the "mistreatment" of Rohingya or Cambodian refugees. The day these people are brought to trial and have to argue their case in court is the day that you can claim that military supremacy is dead and buried.

We have seen the end game being played out now in Turkey where Erdogan has gained sufficient political clout to remove the military from the kingmaker/controller of the nation role. There the military also liked to play the "defender of the nation" role as they amassed vast fortunes and mistreated their people. (google Ergenekon for more details) Basically the lid has been lifted on the nefarious activities of the Turkish military hierarchy and removed any public credibility in their previous assumed role of national guardians.

Removing the military from power in Turkey has been hugely positive in all ways for Turkey. Any politician brave enough to call the military's bluff here will similarly bring wide-ranging advantages to this country.

The military here, sadly, are not the solution but are actually a significant part of the problem that holds Thailand back. It will be interesting in the next decade to see who can resolve this issue first, Thailand or Myanmar.

Edited February 8, 2012 by folium

[longway]

^^ The key to reformng the military is to reform the poilce first.

Edited February 8, 2012 by longway

[longway]

All I can say is that Mr. Amsterdam have a few valid points there.

However, as he does not talk about the role of police and organised crime that is deeply intertwined in thai politics; who both conspire to prevent full political partcipation and therefore democracy, is purposefully and cynically misleading people.

[folium]

^^ The key to reformng the military is to reform the poilce first.

Why?

[metisdead]

Several off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[slapout]

I have gotten to the point in life that I look at Amsterdam and those of like persussion in the same way I look at the make believe blind beggers, those begging ladies carrying the rent a baby, and other scammers. They are probably capable of contributing to society in some way but their chosen avenue is to be a burden on the rest of society.

[wxyz]

Robert A needs a new client. How about this one.

[waza]

^^ The key to reformng the military is to reform the poilce first.

Why?

The need to reform the judiciary so the rule of law applies to all, first.

[volk666]

Folium, Thai Military Bank does not belong to the military anymore, Thaksin and his friends, like Thanong Bidaya, his right hand finance man, are major shareholders, afaik, and under their guidance and manipulating mergers five-six years ago TMB managed to become the third biggest private banks in the country.

A court once tried the army for Tak Bai massacre and found that as they were acting in the line of duty under emergency law they were exempt from punishment.

Military's major remaining business interest is in running a TV channel and maybe some shady logging and protection businesses - hardly worth mentioning on the country's scale.

For half a century career in the military was one of the best ways to establish yourself in the society for people from poor backgrounds but that is changing, too, just like temples aren't the same educational institutions they were hundred years ago.

Nowadays if you are nobody there's a lot more money to be made in police or politics.

[samran]

As previously stated this political power went hand in hand with the assumption of significant economic power of both the overt (TMB aka The Military Bank, property development etc) and covert types (logging & narcotics).

The Military are the 7th largest shareholder owning a whopping 1.5% of the bank. From memory the bank privatised in the early 80's.

The MOF and ING are the largest shareholders.

http://www.set.or.th/set/companyholder.do?symbol=TMB&language=en&country=US

[folium]

Folium, Thai Military Bank does not belong to the military anymore, Thaksin and his friends, like Thanong Bidaya, his right hand finance man, are major shareholders, afaik, and under their guidance and manipulating mergers five-six years ago TMB managed to become the third biggest private banks in the country.

A court once tried the army for Tak Bai massacre and found that as they were acting in the line of duty under emergency law they were exempt from punishment.

Military's major remaining business interest is in running a TV channel and maybe some shady logging and protection businesses - hardly worth mentioning on the country's scale.

For half a century career in the military was one of the best ways to establish yourself in the society for people from poor backgrounds but that is changing, too, just like temples aren't the same educational institutions they were hundred years ago.

Nowadays if you are nobody there's a lot more money to be made in police or politics.

Without wishing to be pedantic I am quite aware that the military only has a small shareholding left in TMB (diluted largely by sales & the corporate activity of the last decade that has seen the bank grow substantially), which is actually owned now by ING 26% and the Ministry of Finance 23%.

The economic interests of the military are highlighted in the appointment post the 2006 coup of 13 generals to the boards of state owned enterprises such as TOT, AOT & MCOT, joining many of their colleagues who already held similar positions. Furthermore the 2007 budget saw a 30% real increase in the military budget to some BT110 billion. The southern insurgency and Cambodian border disputes were highlighted as the logic behind this generous increase, and of course as these events have continued so have increases in the military budget. Arms procurement is on a scale that making more money in the police is highly unlikely (except at lower levels, though the Army Major and his fellow soldiers bust recently for drug trafficking would argue that all levels can do well financially). Sadly the latter does not reflect the military being taken to court for illegal activities as he was first arrested 3 years before he was actually charged (continuing both his army and trafficking role in the meantime), and only then when another member of the gang (a civilian) was arrested and went public about the rest of the players.

The military budget signed off in 2011 is now Bt170 billion (1.7% of GDP), and has seen a steady rate of increase as it has been agreed to rise to 2% of GDP by 2014 (pre the 2006 coup it was 0.13% of GDP). That buys a lot of 3rd rate Ukranian APCs and top of the range tanks (both of which caused many an eyebrow to be raised in terms of suitability and pricing), and probably keeps pension funds and their recipients in a certain degree of style. See photo below for some great tank purchase from the late 1980's now doing a better job as artificial reefs.

The Tak Bai verdicts (5 years after the event) are widely regarded as a joke and have helped ensure that the insurgency continues as having an obviously unaccountable security force is a strange way to win hearts & minds.

[volk666]

So what if they appointed some generals to the boards of state enterprises five years ago? Are they still there? What damage could they inflict by being there? How could it justify saying that they control the government? State enterprises boards are government appointees anyway and their main role is to supply money for government spending, not the other way around.

Surayud had his own reasons to put military men in charge in those days, what has it got to do with the current situation?

As for military budget - why not compare to pre-Thaksin years and regional average?

2% of GDP is a small number in any case, Education or Public Health Ministries gets more, no one is saying that this government is under teachers thumb.

So far neither Amsterdam nor supporters of his assertion provided any evidence that this PTP government is under control of the military. It was just his brain fart, why are we wasting time on his propaganda? To make it more believable? His rhetoric doesn't deserve any consideration, he is not in the business of discovering the truth, he is in the business of obfuscating it according to wishes of his paymaster.

[waza]

Here a link to the tank reef................. http://markitscience.blogspot.com.au/2010/08/thailands-artificial-reefs.html

Fishermen in Thailand have recently encountered the problem of diminishing local fish populations due to overfishing. Hoping to remedy the situation, they petitioned to their Thai Queen for support. She responded by authorizing the dumping of 25 decommissioned army tanks, 273 old train cars, and 198 garbage trucks in the ocean to create artificial reefs.

[folium]

So what if they appointed some generals to the boards of state enterprises five years ago? Are they still there? What damage could they inflict by being there? How could it justify saying that they control the government? State enterprises boards are government appointees anyway and their main role is to supply money for government spending, not the other way around.

Surayud had his own reasons to put military men in charge in those days, what has it got to do with the current situation?

As for military budget - why not compare to pre-Thaksin years and regional average?

2% of GDP is a small number in any case, Education or Public Health Ministries gets more, no one is saying that this government is under teachers thumb.

So far neither Amsterdam nor supporters of his assertion provided any evidence that this PTP government is under control of the military. It was just his brain fart, why are we wasting time on his propaganda? To make it more believable? His rhetoric doesn't deserve any consideration, he is not in the business of discovering the truth, he is in the business of obfuscating it according to wishes of his paymaster.

So what you are suggesting is that having run the country for 70 plus years the military have just packed their bags and gone back to their actual professional duty of securing the nation against internal and external armed threats.

I love your idea of the teachers taking control of the government. Waving a bunch of broken Chinese made tablets doesn't quite have the same intimidatory impact as 49 top of the range Ukrainian main battle tanks. The military here does not need to control the government on a daily basis, the threat is implicit and well rehearsed (having done this 18 times I believe at the last count), that if any civilian treads on sensitive toes it will have dire consequences.

Skimming padded procurement programmes and then cosy well-paid state jobs is the most visible part of the deal. As with Turkey it is highly likely that once returned to barracks all sorts of interesting stories will emerge that have been conveniently overlooked/ignored in the last 79 years.

Accountability and transparency once applied have a nasty habit of exposing reality in all sorts of dark corners.

Must admit I am mystified why people have an issue with recognizing the staus quo as currently experienced here and feel a need to defend the indefensible. As in any decent country the military, with its near monopoly of force projection (unless you live in Mexico), have to be kept under control as once unleashed are a very hard genie to return to the bottle.

Again I lay down a challenge over which country manages to return its miltary genie back into its bottle first, Thailand or Myanmar. Take your pick.

Hopefully some brave politician follows Erdogan's example and takes Thailand down the same road as Turkey in terms of muzzling the military. Apart from the world leaders Comoros and Bolivia, Thailand is a global laughing stock in terms of military coups, is that really what this country deserves?

[folium]

Here a link to the tank reef................. http://markitscience...cial-reefs.html

Fishermen in Thailand have recently encountered the problem of diminishing local fish populations due to overfishing. Hoping to remedy the situation, they petitioned to their Thai Queen for support. She responded by authorizing the dumping of 25 decommissioned army tanks, 273 old train cars, and 198 garbage trucks in the ocean to create artificial reefs.

These Chinese tanks were bought in 1988 and were consigned to the deep no more than 20 years later, another great use of taxpayers cash.

To put this in context the US hand me down M41, M48 and M60s are still going strong even though they are 1950's/1960's technology. The M41s are now finally being retired (at the tender age of 60) having had their final hurrah in the streets of Bangkok for the last coup in 2006.

Interestingly they are being replaced by the Ukrainian Oplot with all the bells & whistles of the top of the range variant, akin to buying a fully loaded Porsche Cayenne when a basic Toyota Hilux would do just as good a job, particularly given likely opponents, be it at worse molotov cocktail armed students or ex Vietnamese T59s of the Royal Cambodian Army (yup the same lumps of c**p dropped into the Gulf of Thailand as they were so unreliable).

What will make fascinating reading in a decade or so's time will be a forensic audit of Thai miltary procurement programmes and don't get me started on the HTMS Chakri Naruebet and its Harriers (or lack of), or the RTN's submarine fleet. As for the bomb detection kit....Thai troops deserve so much better.

[Roadman]

^^ The key to reformng the military is to reform the poilce first.

Why?

The need to reform the judiciary so the rule of law applies to all, first.

Correct. If the law and accountability could be applied to all equally regardless of status by a credible police force / judiciary there would be no need for the Army to be involved in the country's governance. Until (or should that be if ever) an effective judiciary is established with law enforced and corruption curtailed then certainly in the short term the choice is Thai Army intervention when required or all out Shinwatra populist dictatorship.

The Army has the convicted fugitive criminal's number especially after his attack on the Thai Army and Thailand in Bangkok 2010 and that is why the coward will never step foot back in Thailand for a long time yet. He knows it and that is why he has his lapdog Armstrong squeal in the international media. Long may it continue with the Army as final Veto while such bottom dwellers like Thaksin are lurking.

[waza]

Meanwhile Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung is to ask the Cabinet to issue a resolution promising that the government will never amend Article 112 of the Criminal Code, according to the national police chief.

Police Commissioner General Pol Gen Priewphan Damapong said Chalerm had told him of his intention during a meeting at the Government House. The meeting was also attended by the secretary general of the National Security Council and the permanent secretary for Interior Ministry.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/MPs-to-ignore-any-bill-proposing-amendment-House-S-30175426.html

Seems the government doesnt agree with Rob Amsterdam........

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[longway]

^^ The key to reformng the military is to reform the poilce first.

Why?

The need to reform the judiciary so the rule of law applies to all, first.

They are defintely up there, but without decent police its pointless, with a fairly honest even handed policeforce it would make it very difficult for the judicial system to be as biased and corrucpt as it at times.

Once you get a semi-decent police force, it will break the link between politics and organised crime and so reduce corruption in political office, and once you get half way honest politicians constitutional reforms that control the army will actually be effective and pro-democratic, whereas now its just one bunch of crooks vying for dominance over another bunch of crooks.

[longway]

I didn't need this confirmation, I already gathered as much. Still trying to ignore some posts

Now you know for sure Rubl.

If you ignore any Posts, for heaven's sake ignore CalgaryII

It will be much better for your Political Comfort Zone.

It is very unsettling to have one's conclusions challenged.

The problem is though, the likes of Robert Amsterdam and his fanboy's simply re-inforce my conclusions.

Calgary is a fake red, he is planted here by the yellow shirts to make us believe the reds fit the stereotypes of the amart propoganda machine.

Edited February 8, 2012 by longway

[longway]

The military budget signed off in 2011 is now Bt170 billion (1.7% of GDP), and has seen a steady rate of increase as it has been agreed to rise to 2% of GDP by 2014 (pre the 2006 coup it was 0.13% of GDP).

In 2000 it was 1.4% in 2005 it was 1.8%.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=th&v=132

The education budget is far bigger.