Daughters Future...

[leigh0123]

I don't really use this much, however if anybody has a sensible advice to offer me on my very delicate situation it would be greatly appreciated. I will need to give a bit of background info so that anyone who cares to read this understands the situation.

In June 2010, my girlfriend was arrested by police because of the actions of her friend. She is now in Klong Prem Central Prison without a guarantee of her ever being released - due to the amount of drugs involved in the case. My girlfriend was an innocent party to the crime of which she was arrested however it is certainly not conclusive when one studies all of the evidence. Anyway, I know she didn't do it and that is that.

In January 2009, we had a daughter together and since her arrest I have been bringing up our little girl from the tiny age of 18 months until now. She has just celebrated her 3rd birthday. I am 29 years old, and I have decided to get on with my life, sadly without Rebekka's mother (I am sure that anyone reading this will think I am a bastard for leaving her but I can't do it alone anymore).

When I met my girlfriend, she told me that she was currently going through a divorce however her husband hadn't been to Thailand for 2 years so they hadn't processed the divorced. As it remains today, they are still registered as married as the divorce was never finalized, might have been my stupid fault but I refused to pay for that as it wasn't my mess to clean and I didn't want to get involved in all that.

Now, I want to get my daughter a British Passport and Citizenship so she can come back and see my parents and family at Christmas etc. I am not planning to take my daughter away from her biological mother - but I can't waste our lives caught up in this situation.

So, can anyone tell me - can I get her a passport or not based on this situation. I am aware that I have to do one of the following:

- Register through the Home Office (540 quid) OR

- Apply for a passport using the C2 Form

Is she British by decent because I am British?

As I understand the problem arises because my daughters mother is still married. Any thoughts??

[kdc1899]

Hello. Start with a DNA test just to get that out of the way. Get the mother to submit saliva and a notorized statement giving you permission to take her daughter out of Thailand. Take your daughter out of Thailand. If you don't she will absolutely be molested by at least one of these sit al

[kdc1899]

These sit around all day drinking whiskey no workin useless PoShite Thai men.

PS

Your a dick if you abandon her.

[Petesear]

He is not talking about abandoning the child and I'm sure you advice on Thailand's perverts will make the op very happy..

A difficult situation to be in by i think one of the visa experts will be able to help.. Good luck

[ExpatJ]

Yes, you should be able to get her a passport- UNLESS you were born outside of the UK. If you were born outside, then no, she will not get a passport (unless your dad worked for the armed services or civil service when you were born abroad).

[Petesear]

Are you named on the Birth Certificate?

It used to be the case that the children of an unmarried couple found it difficult(not impossible) to get British citizenship but this is a special case and I am sure the circumstances would be taken into consideration, after all you are now the child's legal guardian whether married or otherwise, aren't you?

[leigh0123]

Are you named on the Birth Certificate?

It used to be the case that the children of an unmarried couple found it difficult(not impossible) to get British citizenship but this is a special case and I am sure the circumstances would be taken into consideration, after all you are now the child's legal guardian whether married or otherwise, aren't you?

I am on the Birth Certificate. I am not leaving my daughter. I don't know what process to follow though. Do I just straight apply for the passport. I have a letter from the mother requesting a British Passport. I am again reminded why I don't use these forums due to stupid comments from some individuals. Thanks for any comment that comes with serious care for the life of another.

[leigh0123]

Are you named on the Birth Certificate?

It used to be the case that the children of an unmarried couple found it difficult(not impossible) to get British citizenship but this is a special case and I am sure the circumstances would be taken into consideration, after all you are now the child's legal guardian whether married or otherwise, aren't you?

Apparently I am not the legal guardian and do not have rights as I am only registered on the Birth certificate and apparently my daughters mother could have wrote any name she wished. I guess I would have to get a DNA test. But can I just apply for a passport do you think?

[Gers1873]

Are you named on the Birth Certificate?

It used to be the case that the children of an unmarried couple found it difficult(not impossible) to get British citizenship but this is a special case and I am sure the circumstances would be taken into consideration, after all you are now the child's legal guardian whether married or otherwise, aren't you?

I am on the Birth Certificate. I am not leaving my daughter. I don't know what process to follow though. Do I just straight apply for the passport. I have a letter from the mother requesting a British Passport. I am again reminded why I don't use these forums due to stupid comments from some individuals. Thanks for any comment that comes with serious care for the life of another.

If you are on the birth certificate first step in a notarised translated copy. Easy to do in BKK --- get the translation stamped at MOFA.

Now get yourself and all your documents along to the Embassy. Check exactly what you need online. First you must submit an application for citizenship for your daughter. IIRC this will take about one month. You can submit your passport application at the same time and request they process this when the citizenship document arrives.

Good luck

[Soutpeel]

Are you named on the Birth Certificate?

It used to be the case that the children of an unmarried couple found it difficult(not impossible) to get British citizenship but this is a special case and I am sure the circumstances would be taken into consideration, after all you are now the child's legal guardian whether married or otherwise, aren't you?

Apparently I am not the legal guardian and do not have rights as I am only registered on the Birth certificate and apparently my daughters mother could have wrote any name she wished. I guess I would have to get a DNA test. But can I just apply for a passport do you think?

This would be the case in Thailand, and to become the legal guardian this needs to go through a court of law for you to be declared the legal guardian....

Have a collegue who had a child and a few years later the "wife" died, his name was on the birth certificate and it took him two year of court cases in Thailand to be declared the legal guardian and the surviving Thai family had to give their "permission" for him to become legal guardian...if there is an objection from the wifes family then you may have problems

so this is not as simple as getting a DNA test....he was also persuing a British PP for his daughter and the issue was compounded by the fact that they were not legally married either and the child was born prior to 2006 therefore under the rules at the time British citizenship was not automatically passed on to his daughter in his case

It was all sorted out in the end, but not easy and a long road to travel down

[ludditeman]

Under Thai law, the father is her husband.

That person is not you.

The UK are unlikely to ever recognise you as the father.

Unfortunately

You will not be able to get the child a UK passport or citizenship.

Ask at the UK Embassy/Consulate, be sure to inform them the mother was married to a Thai at the time.

[Soutpeel]

Under Thai law, the father is her husband.

That person is not you.

The UK are unlikely to ever recognise you as the father.

Unless of course he was recognised through a Thai court of law

[IMA_FARANG]

The very first step is to establish that she really is your daughter. That is where the DNA test comes in, it can establish your paternity...or the lack of it... (got to honest here, until DNA results are in, your paternity isn't proven).

If and when that is proven...and you'll need the mother's co-operation for the DNA test...then you and her have to agree what is best for her daughter.

You need to understand that she may be extremely reluctant to give up her daughter to you. Her whole life has been turned upside down....and the only thing she has left from her former life is her daughter. Don;t expect her to give up her daughter easily.

Even if she does agree to let you have custody of the daughter...even temporarily...you may have to confirm that through the Thai courts. You certainly will need a Thai lawyer to advise you about that part. Obviously, I'm not a Thai lawyer.i

Let's assume you get your wife's consent, and a Thai courts reaffirms your right to custody of your daughter....your next hurtle is the British embessy. They are almost certainly going to require:

1. Proof you are the father.

2. You're wife's consent to allow you full custody of the daughter...at least temporarily.

3. Some kind of legal document from a Thai court allowing you to exercise you right to parental custody in lieu of your wife's custody (because of her situation)

So, you see, this will NOT be an easy process...even just to get to the point where the British embessy will even cosider your case to take the daughter to the U.K.

Therefore, be prepared for a long and expensive process....even if your wife agrees to help.

Edited February 7, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[ludditeman]

The very first step is to establish that she really is your daughter. That is where the DNA test comes in, it can establish your paternity...or the lack of it... (got to honest here, until DNA results are in, your paternity isn't proven).

If and when that is proven...and you'll need the mother's co-operation for the DNA test...then you and her have to agree what is best for her daughter.

This is completely wrong information.

Although Thai law says the father IS the husband, and you really won't easily get round that, no matter what you do.

Even adoption would need the father's and the mother's permission, but that wouldn't get the kid UK citizenship.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ludditeman

[leigh0123]

hmmm..I guess the best thing for me to do in the most simple fashion is not to listen to the advice provided thus far. The Fact that the Law states that the father IS the child is completely irrelevant to the fact that I have the same DNA as her. So, I will simply apply for her citizenship and then the passport. I have letters from her giving her decision and permission for our daughter to obtain a UK passport and for me to take care of her. That is what the Embassy asked for. Also, I know that this will never go to court because she could never attend because of her ongoing court case revolving around 61million bhats worth of yabba so lets look at things logically just like the Home Office have responded and also the Thai Law relating to "The best interests of the child". Her mother will not get out. I have to deal with this situation, it aint easy but I manage - I would like to stay here but the education just isn't available. thanks for trying to help but opinionated, uneducated answers weren't what I was hoping for. Thank you anyways.

[Soutpeel]

hmmm..I guess the best thing for me to do in the most simple fashion is not to listen to the advice provided thus far. The Fact that the Law states that the father IS the child is completely irrelevant to the fact that I have the same DNA as her. So, I will simply apply for her citizenship and then the passport. I have letters from her giving her decision and permission for our daughter to obtain a UK passport and for me to take care of her. That is what the Embassy asked for. Also, I know that this will never go to court because she could never attend because of her ongoing court case revolving around 61million bhats worth of yabba so lets look at things logically just like the Home Office have responded and also the Thai Law relating to "The best interests of the child". Her mother will not get out. I have to deal with this situation, it aint easy but I manage - I would like to stay here but the education just isn't available. thanks for trying to help but opinionated, uneducated answers weren't what I was hoping for. Thank you anyways.

Oh well if you have all the answers then best of luck to you, but cant understand if you have all the answers you are asking on TV then if you want something other than opinons on an internet forum because that was all you were going to get

You should have retained a lawyer and discussed the options....but please do come back and let us know how you got on with the BE

[leigh0123]

hmmm..I guess the best thing for me to do in the most simple fashion is not to listen to the advice provided thus far. The Fact that the Law states that the father IS the child is completely irrelevant to the fact that I have the same DNA as her. So, I will simply apply for her citizenship and then the passport. I have letters from her giving her decision and permission for our daughter to obtain a UK passport and for me to take care of her. That is what the Embassy asked for. Also, I know that this will never go to court because she could never attend because of her ongoing court case revolving around 61million bhats worth of yabba so lets look at things logically just like the Home Office have responded and also the Thai Law relating to "The best interests of the child". Her mother will not get out. I have to deal with this situation, it aint easy but I manage - I would like to stay here but the education just isn't available. thanks for trying to help but opinionated, uneducated answers weren't what I was hoping for. Thank you anyways.

Oh well if you have all the answers then best of luck to you, but cant understand if you have all the answers you are asking on TV then if you want something other than opinons on an internet forum because that was all you were going to get

You should have retained a lawyer and discussed the options....but please do come back and let us know how you got on with the BE

I will, I don't have all the answers. I just posted this trying to get a response from someone who has gone / going through this. Thank you.

[garrfeild]

I'm not sure why you would need the mothers DNA when it is your DNA that would prove if the girl was indeed your daughter! I would have thought it a foregone conclusion who the girls mother is!

That aside, this may be against your moral compass,( you would need to make the GF believe you are not abandoning her as such but because she is where she is it would be better to get sole guardianship of the girl. For the girls benefit, etc. If the mother has any sense she will know the girrl is better off with you, than anyone else, you just need to show her that!

You could get all the documents drawn up in English and Thai, take them with you next time you visit the GF and sweet talk her enough and you might be able to get her to sign the documents.

Better to try from a point of mutual accommodation than as adversaries.

Once you have sole guardianship, she will not be able to stop you taking the girl anywhere. Besides dare I say if she is locked up and you don't go advertising your intentions to the in-laws, how is she going to stop you?

But if you have already finished with the GF the above won't work maybe!!!!

Good Luck

[marstons]

i am always surprised people post these difficult complicated questions on a forum, why not e mail the Embassy or the Immigration in the UK. there you will get straight forward correct answers. i know people will ridicule this but that's what i always did and always got replies with the facts. In your shoes i would have no qualms with getting on with my life either, with just you and your daughter.

[Soutpeel]

i am always surprised people post these difficult complicated questions on a forum, why not e mail the Embassy or the Immigration in the UK. there you will get straight forward correct answers. i know people will ridicule this but that's what i always did and always got replies with the facts. In your shoes i would have no qualms with getting on with my life either, with just you and your daughter.

Its seems to be a case they are looking for free "legal" advice, because they dont want to pay for a lawyers's advice or persue the proper channels, when they received said advice/opinions, start getting all p*ssed off because its not the answer they want to hear

[Petesear]

True, the OP did get a tad annoyed at some of the replies given to him, and maybe in hindsight asking anything on here this serious and difficult was a bad move.

I wish you all the best, you are obviously a good and devoted Father so I hope this all works out the way we know it should.

[leigh0123]

I don't really get annoyed, its just some people seem to waste their little lives giving poor opinions that help anyone - they just want to fill the gaps in their boring days.

Anyway, this is the script from the HO and BE as you wanted to know:

- Home Office says I can apply for her Passport immediately as long as I have a letter from her mother and my name is on the Birth Certificate.

- Embassy are happy to process the application based on this advice.

- I am the father of my child and she automatically receives British Nationality, regardless of her mothers existing marriage, because was born after 2006 and also due to myself being UK Citizen who was born in the UK.

So all in all, is just a passport application fee. There is no need to get her a British Birth Certificate other than for duties that may arise in England when she lives there later. All documents in Thai must be officially translated and stamped, then they are good for everything.

So the application will take around 4-6 weeks, then my daughter is legally British and can go and do whatever she wants (later in life of course...)

Thanks to those of you who gave me some advice.

[beano2274]

I would get the translation of her Birth Certificate done here, probably cheaper, then get it certified, already prepared for things in England then.

Good luck with your new future.

[ludditeman]

I would get the translation of her Birth Certificate done here, probably cheaper, then get it certified, already prepared for things in England then.

Good luck with your new future.

I paid 80bht for a birth certificate translation.

PS

Certified only means the translator has a rubber stamp which he uses on each page."I certify this to be a true and accurate translation....." then his signature and date written over the stamp.

[Gers1873]

I don't really get annoyed, its just some people seem to waste their little lives giving poor opinions that help anyone - they just want to fill the gaps in their boring days.

Anyway, this is the script from the HO and BE as you wanted to know:

- Home Office says I can apply for her Passport immediately as long as I have a letter from her mother and my name is on the Birth Certificate.

- Embassy are happy to process the application based on this advice.

- I am the father of my child and she automatically receives British Nationality, regardless of her mothers existing marriage, because was born after 2006 and also due to myself being UK Citizen who was born in the UK.

So all in all, is just a passport application fee. There is no need to get her a British Birth Certificate other than for duties that may arise in England when she lives there later. All documents in Thai must be officially translated and stamped, then they are good for everything.

So the application will take around 4-6 weeks, then my daughter is legally British and can go and do whatever she wants (later in life of course...)

Thanks to those of you who gave me some advice.

GREAT NEWS ---- Get her passport application submitted and they will process when citizenship papers arrive assuminmg you are having them sent to the Embassy..... nice to hear some good news

[draftvader]

So worth paying for the British Birth Registration now. This will save you PLENTY of admin once you arrive in the UK if you "suddenly" decide that a free "decent enough" eduction and healthcare suits her life.

[leigh0123]

Well I found out, after e-mail confirmation from the Home Office, that due to my daughters mothers still being currently married I must first complete the MN1 form and pay the handsome 540 quid fee + 65 quid handling - nice! I then must wait 4-6 months for decision. All documentation must be translated into English from Thai (obviously) and give to the Embassy. The MN1 form must be signed by both parents of the child and supporting evidence must be given. No mention of a DNA test has been asked for but I think it is best practice for me to do this and to include this with the application form. So, when I get the cash together I will apply. Unfortunately the lawyer fees at the beginning of this mess cleaned me out and them some so I am just getting by at the moment after the house move. I will be applying in a few months with a little bit of luck and maybe get home for christmas - hopefully...

[thaihome]

Well I found out, after e-mail confirmation from the Home Office, that due to my daughters mothers still being currently married I must first complete the MN1 form and pay the handsome 540 quid fee + 65 quid handling - nice! I then must wait 4-6 months for decision. All documentation must be translated into English from Thai (obviously) and give to the Embassy. The MN1 form must be signed by both parents of the child and supporting evidence must be given. No mention of a DNA test has been asked for but I think it is best practice for me to do this and to include this with the application form. So, when I get the cash together I will apply. Unfortunately the lawyer fees at the beginning of this mess cleaned me out and them some so I am just getting by at the moment after the house move. I will be applying in a few months with a little bit of luck and maybe get home for christmas - hopefully...

Would seem your case would fall under the note in the following section

Illegitimate children

Children born illegitimately before 1 July 2006 could only derive British citizenship

through their mothers. They could not benefit from their father’s British citizenship unless

their parents married and the birth was legitimated.

Children born illegitimately to a British citizen father on or after 1 July 2006 may derive

citizenship from him (as well as from the mother if she is also a British citizen) and will be

a British citizen from birth automatically provided there is satisfactory evidence of paternity.

From 6 April 2009 the definition of a “father” for nationality purposes was extended to

include female second parents under sections 42 or 43 of the Human Fertilisation and

Embryology Act 2008.

We may normally register the illegitimate minor child, born before 1 July 2006, of a British

citizen father under section 3 (1) if the criteria at a-c. (and, if appropriate, d.) below are all

satisfied:

a. We are satisfied about the paternity of the child; and

b. We have the consent of all those with parental responsibility; and

c. If the child had been born to the father legitimately:

i. the child would have had an automatic claim to British citizenship; or

ii. the child would have had an entitlement to registration under either section

1 (3), section 3 (2) or sections 3 (5); or

iii. we would normally have registered under section 3 (1). And, if appropriate

d. There is no reason to refuse on character grounds

12

NOTE:

Where a child’s mother is married at the time of the birth, her husband (and no other man)

is regarded as the father of any child born to her on or after 1 July 2006. However, cases

may arise where there is compelling evidence that someone other than the husband is the

child’s natural father. In such cases, where the child would have had a claim to citizenship

or entitlement to registration if the mother had been married to the natural father, we will

normally register the child under section 3 (1) if the above criteria are met.

Good luck, hope it goes well for you and your child.

TH

[bobrussell]

Prove you are the father (DNA test) and the child has an automatic right to be considered a British Citizen (by decent) full-stop. The only issue that may delay/block would be if someone with parental responsibility refuses permission. Even if this is refused it is the child that is entitled to citizenship and not those with parental responsibility to chose. I cannot believe that the British Embassy can refuse citizenship to anyone who is entitled to it as an 'accident of birth'. There have to be strong and specific grounds why a British citizen is going to be refused a passport!

For those under 18yrs there is the option for anyone with parental responsibility to prevent a child leaving the UK through the courts and I assume similar restrictions can be imposed by the Thai authorities. This is not the same as the right to British Citizenship!

Unless I read this wrong citizenship is a right but the right for that child to be removed from a country is not. Assuming the DNA test on samples from you and the child prove paternity claim citizenship, try to get a British passport as stage two then it may be necessary to take legal advice.

[leigh0123]

As the mother of my child is currently married to a Scottish bloke with full UK CItizenship my daughter qualifies as British Citizen by decent through him. However I hold all paternal rights in the UK regarding my daughter. On the basis of obtaining a passport I am kinda lucky (if I can wrap my head around the whole situation...) that my daughters mother is married to a British Citizen rather than someone of another nationality which would complicate the whole situation (well financially anyway). Home Office approved. So all is good apparently. I am now waiting on the Hong Kong department to process the passport.

Thanks for all advice much appreciated.