Can My Thai Wife And I Easily Take Our Informally Adopted Thai Daughter To Visit Uk

[SantiSuk]

A 14 year old girl from within my Thai wife's extended family has lived within my wife's family home since she was 6 months old. She has never been formally adopted. For the last year she has lived with my wife and I and our natural daughter. We want to adopt her but that is proving impossible until I can demonstrate that I have left the UK and become non-resident for UK purposes (which I will do in the next year or two). UK elder relative commitments have meant that I visit the UK regularly, so much so that I am still UK resident but not for long enough to convince my UK local authority to stand up to their legal obligation to assess me as an adopting parent.

There is a wedding in my family in Europe and for this visit I don't want to leave our adoptee daughter behind in Thailand. Her natural parents are willing to make her passport and sign whatever is necessary to get her a visa. She has never met her mother so only her father (who was only identified to her last year) could accompany us to the VFS centre if a natural parent is required.

It has proved easy for me to get visas for my wife and I in the past - I have plenty of proven financial support and we have a house a condo and farmland in Thailand. We have been 3 times before, once with our natural daughter. However I know from legal consultations about adoption that UK Border is very sceptical about 'children gifted into the family' in their input to international adoption processes. I don't know whether this would extend into visitation rights.

Has anyone out there had experience of taking a child who is not their own, nor that of their wife to the UK (or on a Schengen to Europe)?

[VisasPlus]

I'm not sure if you are talking about settlement or visit visas. For settlement It is extremely difficult, and was made so in order to prevent children being taken to the UK for a "better life" as alleged adopted children. As they say, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

You have seemingly researched the legal adoption route, but there is the " de facto" adoption route. That is where no legal adoption has taken place, but the adoptive parents have looked after the child and wish to take the adopted child to the UK. But, from what you say, the child would not qualify as one of the many requirements is that the child must have severed all ties with her natural parents. The fact that you say that her natural parents are willing to assist in getting her a passport, etc, shows that ties have not been severed. In addition, you will have to show evidence of a " transfer of parental responsibility " from the natural parents to you. This often proves impossible to show.

I have simplified the whole process, of course. It is difficult, complicated, and usually unsuccessful. The legal route is easier, but there are also, as you know, many hurdles.

For a visit visa, it should be a lot easier. There is no reason why the child should have been adopted, so long as you can justify taking her on a holiday, and afford it, etc.

Edit: Just saw that you are asking about visit visas. There is no reason why you can't take a relative on a holiday as long as you can justify the reasons for taking her, and provide reasons for her to return to Thailand.

Edited February 13, 2012 by VisasPlus

[SantiSuk]

I'm not sure if you are talking about settlement or visit visas. For settlement It is extremely difficult, and was made so in order to prevent children being taken to the UK for a "better life" as alleged adopted children. As they say, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

You have seemingly researched the legal adoption route, but there is the " de facto" adoption route. That is where no legal adoption has taken place, but the adoptive parents have looked after the child and wish to take the adopted child to the UK. But, from what you say, the child would not qualify as one of the many requirements is that the child must have severed all ties with her natural parents. The fact that you say that her natural parents are willing to assist in getting her a passport, etc, shows that ties have not been severed. In addition, you will have to show evidence of a " transfer of parental responsibility " from the natural parents to you. This often proves impossible to show.

I have simplified the whole process, of course. It is difficult, complicated, and usually unsuccessful. The legal route is easier, but there are also, as you know, many hurdles.

For a visit visa, it should be a lot easier. There is no reason why the child should have been adopted, so long as you can justify taking her on a holiday, and afford it, etc.

Edit: Just saw that you are asking about visit visas. There is no reason why you can't take a relative on a holiday as long as you can justify the reasons for taking her, and provide reasons for her to return to Thailand.

Many thanks - that was the kind of confirmation I need to proceed with the visit visa.

In the longer run I have no current intention of taking her to settle in the UK and I am given to understand by the UK embassy that once I can get a UK lawyer to confirm that I am not resident in the UK* they will write a letter to the Thai adoption authorities saying that they have no reason to believe I would not be able to adopt under UK law (but stopping short of saying that they would actually allow her to reside in the UK). This apparently should allow for a legal adoption in Thailand. I would have to start a completely new (and difficult) UK adoption process if I subsequently wanted to take her to the UK on other than a visit basis.

*Can't remember the exact term they use but it is the one that requires you to cut nearly all ties with the UK and take up tax residence outside the UK

[SantiSuk]

I'm not sure if you are talking about settlement or visit visas. For settlement It is extremely difficult, and was made so in order to prevent children being taken to the UK for a "better life" as alleged adopted children. As they say, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

You have seemingly researched the legal adoption route, but there is the " de facto" adoption route. That is where no legal adoption has taken place, but the adoptive parents have looked after the child and wish to take the adopted child to the UK. But, from what you say, the child would not qualify as one of the many requirements is that the child must have severed all ties with her natural parents. The fact that you say that her natural parents are willing to assist in getting her a passport, etc, shows that ties have not been severed. In addition, you will have to show evidence of a " transfer of parental responsibility " from the natural parents to you. This often proves impossible to show.

I have simplified the whole process, of course. It is difficult, complicated, and usually unsuccessful. The legal route is easier, but there are also, as you know, many hurdles.

For a visit visa, it should be a lot easier. There is no reason why the child should have been adopted, so long as you can justify taking her on a holiday, and afford it, etc.

Edit: Just saw that you are asking about visit visas. There is no reason why you can't take a relative on a holiday as long as you can justify the reasons for taking her, and provide reasons for her to return to Thailand.

Many thanks - that was the kind of confirmation I need to proceed full bore with the visit visa.

In the longer run I have no current intention of taking her to settle in the UK and I am given to understand by the UK embassy that once I can get a UK lawyer to confirm that I am not resident in the UK* they will write a letter to the Thai adoption authorities saying that they have no reason to believe I would not be able to adopt under UK law (but stopping short of saying that they would actually allow her to reside in the UK). This apparently should allow for a legal adoption in Thailand. I would have to start a completely new (and difficult) UK adoption process if I subsequently wanted to take her to the UK on other than a visit basis.

*Can't remember the exact term they use but it is the one that requires you to cut nearly all ties with the UK and take up tax residence outside the UK

[SantiSuk]

For completeness, just to say that we got the visa yesterday. 15 days processing/EMS deivery time - exactly as indicated at interview.

The things worth noting are:

(1) We needed to get written confirmations from both legal parents that my informally fostered daughter can travel with us. There is no format for this; I used a simple confirmation statement in Thai that was easy for them to sign, with our own (non-certified) English translation. VfS do not require an English version, but I figured that I might need to show it at the Thai or English borders or to the outgoing airline. I thought it worthwhile to get two confirmations signed as an original by both parents so that you can retain the spare original for border use. If anyone needs to see my simple version that worked, then pm me. We were lucky that her parents are accessible to us and friendly. I guess there must be different provisions to cater for situations where the legal parents are not known or not accessible. I guess if the parents are uncooperative, your'e stuffed.

(2) There is apparently a separate electronic Child Visa application form. This somehow passed me by (and on revisiting the web-site later I still cannot see how I was supposed to know that - there is no electronic option in the drop down online options box as far as I can see). The visa agent outside the VfS centre pointed this out to me when we went in there for passport photos and at interview my wife was told 'you should have applied on the child application - do you want to proceed using this application or do you want to reapply on the correct form?' My wife rang me to consult - I said 'take the risk - we have time to go round again but I haven't the enregy left to race thru another application now'. Luckily it worked. This point is relevant to any child application.

(3) As always with VfS they wanted more documentation than their requirements specify. I find this very irritating but I always sit outside at Regent House with a file full of anything they could possibly ask for. My wife usually has to run in and out at least twice to get stuff and have it photocopied. Seems to apply to a routine visa for her, not just special situations like an informally fostered daughter. This time they asked for my fostered daughter's ID card (and copy), the ID cards of her legal parents and the housebook on which she is registered. We happened to have her mother's ID card still with us and they seemed happy with looking at and retaining a copy of just that. Presumably had we not had some documents we would have been asked to provide them later. My wife needed to show her housebook incidentally, as per normal. Why do they not at least give a list of documents you might like to take along in case??

(4) Don't send documents into the interview that you do not need to. VfS may snaffle them and you might not easily get them back. I 'lost' my duplicate parental confirmations that way. My wife commented that the agent seemed not to know what he was doing and 'just emptied all your 'nicely organised folders into his box'. That's why I hang around outside, rather than send my wife in with every formal document we ever owned!

(5) Parental confirmations for the Schengen visa come in the form of signing on the application form itself. I don't know what my daughter's parents think of my organisation skills as we have had to visit them in their separate locations 500 k apart 3 times now - once for her passport, once for the UK visa and now for the Schengen visa.

Think I'll stick to taking my 2 year old on holiday only in future. So much easier when your own kid has a British and Thai passport.

[Mario2008]

Also take a copy of the child's birth ceritificate with you when leaving Thailand, as well as the written permision and perhaps a signed copy of the child's parents ID cards.

Currently there is a strict check at the airport, mainly targeted at child trafficking and your situation fits the circumstances in which they will check. Nothing to worry about, but do have the paperwork.