"Raid" On Wildlife Sanctuary Had "Revenge" Motive?

[cowslip]

The government of Thailand is not perfect nor is any government in the world. I believe the great King of Thailand is trying his best to help save nature in Thailand moreso than the Thai Government. Right now Thailand is suffering after a flood crisis and a huge loss in terms of economic development. I wish that we could find a way to live as one with the earth and revert back to the primitive way of life which would be a much more sustainable way to develop humanity and the rest of the world. The problem is with Human overpopulation already exceeding capacity in most countries, the only solution would be to enforce laws on every family having only 1 baby (NOT like China, where current laws allow the rich to have as many as they want) BUT ALL countries MUST enforce the same laws soon or we may need to colonize the moon immediately with a bio-dome or funding more research into NASA to accelerate the speed of space travel so we can reach the moon of Jupiter "Europa" which is capable of sustaining human life or at least to a certain extent. Basically you must understand that some of these NGO groups here in Thailand are making HUGE amounts of money in executive salaries and under the table payments as well. The actual amount of money from donations GOING to these groups is quite questionable. The departments of wild life in Thailand also has many officials and government agencies who are employed to protect wildlife but also who are money hungry purse snatchers as well. But Many Rangers and officials in the Forest department of Thailand truly do have compassion for animals and to slander ALL OF THEM as cruel, evil, and corrupted as was done by certain NGO groups is NOT a positive way to make change if you want to SAVE NATURE in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia . Some have reported mistreatment of animals in the living conditions at some of these NGO groups before the National park officials of Thailand arrived. Many NGO groups and Government sectors lack the proper organization and leadership to be truly effective in protecting endangered species and STOPPING the inhumane treatment of animals BUT if we learn to work TOGETHER and make progress WITH the government of Thailand, I'm sure we can make a much more POSITIVE IMPACT than slandering the entire Department of WildLife in Thailand as Torturers and Murderers. Propaganda by the media and by certain NGO groups can also make these very same outfits quite wealthy by gaining international attention. Me I need to go now, I have LIVES to save and minds to change one day at a time and in reality , MUCH more can be done to save endangered lives OUTSIDE as compared to right here ONLINE, I don't wish to engage in any debates with anyone because I only have respect for ALL life in Thailand. If we show eachother MUTUAL RESPECT it will reflect back to you in a positive way hopefully one day, its called Karma...

Much Love to everyone..

THis is interesting as it shows the appalling depth of ignorance that o many have when it comes to nature conservation and environmental issues.

most of the premises put forward here are so inaccurate as to be laughable.

It does however give a good insight into the sort of thing that TFFW and co are up against.

please if you are going to form an opinion try to get some background knowledge first.

Making up ideas as you go along is not a valid method of argument and usually ends up in a paragraph (sometimes two) of nonsense.

[473geo]

The government of Thailand is not perfect nor is any government in the world. I believe the great King of Thailand is trying his best to help save nature in Thailand moreso than the Thai Government. Right now Thailand is suffering after a flood crisis and a huge loss in terms of economic development. I wish that we could find a way to live as one with the earth and revert back to the primitive way of life which would be a much more sustainable way to develop humanity and the rest of the world. The problem is with Human overpopulation already exceeding capacity in most countries, the only solution would be to enforce laws on every family having only 1 baby (NOT like China, where current laws allow the rich to have as many as they want) BUT ALL countries MUST enforce the same laws soon or we may need to colonize the moon immediately with a bio-dome or funding more research into NASA to accelerate the speed of space travel so we can reach the moon of Jupiter "Europa" which is capable of sustaining human life or at least to a certain extent. Basically you must understand that some of these NGO groups here in Thailand are making HUGE amounts of money in executive salaries and under the table payments as well. The actual amount of money from donations GOING to these groups is quite questionable. The departments of wild life in Thailand also has many officials and government agencies who are employed to protect wildlife but also who are money hungry purse snatchers as well. But Many Rangers and officials in the Forest department of Thailand truly do have compassion for animals and to slander ALL OF THEM as cruel, evil, and corrupted as was done by certain NGO groups is NOT a positive way to make change if you want to SAVE NATURE in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia . Some have reported mistreatment of animals in the living conditions at some of these NGO groups before the National park officials of Thailand arrived. Many NGO groups and Government sectors lack the proper organization and leadership to be truly effective in protecting endangered species and STOPPING the inhumane treatment of animals BUT if we learn to work TOGETHER and make progress WITH the government of Thailand, I'm sure we can make a much more POSITIVE IMPACT than slandering the entire Department of WildLife in Thailand as Torturers and Murderers. Propaganda by the media and by certain NGO groups can also make these very same outfits quite wealthy by gaining international attention. Me I need to go now, I have LIVES to save and minds to change one day at a time and in reality , MUCH more can be done to save endangered lives OUTSIDE as compared to right here ONLINE, I don't wish to engage in any debates with anyone because I only have respect for ALL life in Thailand. If we show eachother MUTUAL RESPECT it will reflect back to you in a positive way hopefully one day, its called Karma...

Much Love to everyone..

THis is interesting as it shows the appalling depth of ignorance that o many have when it comes to nature conservation and environmental issues.

most of the premises put forward here are so inaccurate as to be laughable.

It does however give a good insight into the sort of thing that TFFW and co are up against.

please if you are going to form an opinion try to get some background knowledge first.

Making up ideas as you go along is not a valid method of argument and usually ends up in a paragraph (sometimes two) of nonsense.

If you would just clarify Cowslip when you stop laughing at the nonsense

What is the approximate annual Salary of an NGO executive?

Do you disagree with the following points from above?

"The departments of wild life in Thailand also has many officials and government agencies who are employed to protect wildlife but also who are money hungry purse snatchers as well. But Many Rangers and officials in the Forest department of Thailand truly do have compassion for animals and to slander ALL OF THEM as cruel, evil, and corrupted as was done by certain NGO groups is NOT a positive way to make change if you want to SAVE NATURE in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia"

" Many NGO groups and Government sectors lack the proper organization and leadership to be truly effective in protecting endangered species and STOPPING the inhumane treatment of animals BUT if we learn to work TOGETHER and make progress WITH the government of Thailand, I'm sure we can make a much more POSITIVE IMPACT than slandering the entire Department of WildLife in Thailand as Torturers and Murderers."

"Propaganda by the media and by certain NGO groups can also make these very same outfits quite wealthy by gaining international attention"

Just to improve my understanding - Thanks

[robblok]

There are not many NGO's that don't pay their founders / managers a lot of money. I would highly doubt that they aren't paid well. Many are just in it for the money and hold up the appearance of doing something good.

Someone said its a hard business model, that might be true but without a real good audit (and even then) I would not hold my breath that the managers aren't paid well. I just have a healthy aversion for NGO's as in general they do a lot of damage and the holier then holy people running them hide behind a wall of silence.

Just look at the salaries of some of the famous NGO's for board of directors and so on. They are not in it for doing good but to make money.

[cowslip]

There are not many NGO's that don't pay their founders / managers a lot of money. I would highly doubt that they aren't paid well. Many are just in it for the money and hold up the appearance of doing something good.

Someone said its a hard business model, that might be true but without a real good audit (and even then) I would not hold my breath that the managers aren't paid well. I just have a healthy aversion for NGO's as in general they do a lot of damage and the holier then holy people running them hide behind a wall of silence.

Just look at the salaries of some of the famous NGO's for board of directors and so on. They are not in it for doing good but to make money.

There are not many NGO's that don't pay their founders / managers a lot of money. I would highly doubt that they aren't paid well. Many are just in it for the money and hold up the appearance of doing something good.

Someone said its a hard business model, that might be true but without a real good audit (and even then) I would not hold my breath that the managers aren't paid well. I just have a healthy aversion for NGO's as in general they do a lot of damage and the holier then holy people running them hide behind a wall of silence.

Just look at the salaries of some of the famous NGO's for board of directors and so on. They are not in it for doing good but to make money.

as ever the tread has descend into gibberish with the help of people who really don't understand the issues here and think that they are presenting an argument when in fact they are sidelining the affair by introducing tangential issues about which they also know nothing .

If you want to discuss ten start another thread....after you've got up to speed on the subject.

[robblok]

I just question the integrity of NGO's and this one too. Just be happy someone posts in this topic as most people don't care at all. So if its not true what i say could you tell me what the guy is being paid in a month ? Who says this is not just as bad as the tiger temple but with nicer window dressing ?

I am just real cynical of these things with good reason too. Like i said look at the salaries in NGO's and how they ruin many things. Instead of handing it over to locals they want to stay involved ect. Lord no don't make locals self sufficient because that would make them obsolete. Things like this are much better run by locals who really care then a foreigner dictating things.

[473geo]

Cowslip

You are comfortable accusing the Thai of accepting financial gain through 'nefarious activity', yet when posed a question regarding renumeration of an NGO executive you suggest it is 'off topic'

What I consider to be thoughtful advice regarding working with, rather than upsetting the Thai government officials, you dismiss as nonsense and Laughable

A considered subtle approach when working with foreign governments in their country is usually the acknowledged route to successful projects, you may wish to rethink your approach to the suggestion above promoting co-operation rather than confrontation.

You may also wish to consider which species on the planet do not usually attack unless they feel threatened, and learn an approach to gain the confidence required to forge successful relationships

I don't doubt there are wildlife projects that do excellent work with animals, but I agree with Robblok above, that these skills are better passed on to locals, indeed locals who are perhaps more adept at communicating and gaining support from their government

[JurgenG]

I'm not surprised about what was published against the national park department, it's not the first time they act this way

... locals who are perhaps more adept at communicating and gaining support from their government

Is it what I think ?

An other point bother me. It's the second time in very recent times that the people from the national parks organize raids involving tens to hundreds of officials from the department to search the home and intimidate the people who dare to oppose them. And both times The Nation chose to ignore the information. Any particular reason for that ?

Edited February 26, 2012 by JurgenG

[wolf5370]

Just heard this:

เพิ่งได้ข้อความจากเพื่อนเรื่อง Elephant Nature Parkศูนย์ช่วยช้างเจ็บป่วยที่แม่ตะมาน (เชียงใหม่) ว่าพรุ่งนี้คนทางราชการจะเข้าไปจับพี่เล็ก (คนก่อตั้งและช่วยเหลือช้าง) และจะเอาช้างจากที่นี่ไปด้วย.... ไม่น่าเชื่อว่าประเทศไทยจะมีคนพวกเห็นแก่เงิน เห็นแก่ตัวขนาดนี้้ ทำลายป่า ทำร้ายสัตว์ ไม่ช่วยแล้วยังมาข่มขู่ รุกรานคนที่เค้าสละตัวเองเพื่อช่วยช้างขนาดนี้ ไม่รู้จะทำไงดี เรามันไม่ใช่คนมีอิทธิพล ไม่มีอำนาจจะสั่งใคร พี่น้องคนไทย ได้โปรดเห็นแก่สัตว์ป่าบ้างนะคะ แซดดดดดดดมากกกกกก _*_

Basically, it is a bit of inside info - apparantly they are arresting Lek tomorrow and going to raid ENP as they did WFFT.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

As much as I dislike the ENP, that's very sad if true. Because it is a highly successful Chiang Mai business, and some tourists even come to Chiang Mai specifically to visit the ENP.

Also I can scarcely imagine the international shit-storm on the social media. ENP does a great job of brainwashing their guests; they'll go completely mental when somoene lays a finger on ENP. Big international boycott campaigns of Thaiand and that'd be just the start.

Let's hope it doesn't happen.

Edited February 27, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[JurgenG]

Thanks to whybother who is the OP for this vdeo, we really need to do something asap

[473geo]

I'll give the thread a bump Jurgen

[DiamondKing]

Pardon me for being ignorant, but should the goal not be returning them to the wild. This sounds more like a zoo where people with a guilt complex come to work.

maybe you not too smart but if you read the thread it clearly states that animals have been abused attacked by dogs had limbs amputated how on earth are you going to return then to the wild.

Additionally Gall Bladder bears that have been caged all their life and had their gall bladders drained for years on end stuck in a cage and then rescues how do you think that animal could be set free IMPOSSIBLE

Many of these animals are destined to be caged the rest of there lives at least there they are loved and taken care of or were.

DK

[473geo]

Pardon me for being ignorant, but should the goal not be returning them to the wild. This sounds more like a zoo where people with a guilt complex come to work.

maybe you not too smart but if you read the thread it clearly states that animals have been abused attacked by dogs had limbs amputated how on earth are you going to return then to the wild.

Additionally Gall Bladder bears that have been caged all their life and had their gall bladders drained for years on end stuck in a cage and then rescues how do you think that animal could be set free IMPOSSIBLE

Many of these animals are destined to be caged the rest of there lives at least there they are loved and taken care of or were.

DK

Are the people who fan the flames while sitting close to the fire maybe "not too smart" also?

Out of interest can we have numbers and types released into the wild over the last say 3 years, also an inventory of the type of animals who are long term 'refugees' from their natural habitat

Edited February 27, 2012 by 473geo

[cowslip]

Pardon me for being ignorant, but should the goal not be returning them to the wild. This sounds more like a zoo where people with a guilt complex come to work.

maybe you not too smart but if you read the thread it clearly states that animals have been abused attacked by dogs had limbs amputated how on earth are you going to return then to the wild.

Additionally Gall Bladder bears that have been caged all their life and had their gall bladders drained for years on end stuck in a cage and then rescues how do you think that animal could be set free IMPOSSIBLE

Many of these animals are destined to be caged the rest of there lives at least there they are loved and taken care of or were.

DK

I really don't see ignorance as an excuse on this - all you had to do was read the thread

[robblok]

Pardon me for being ignorant, but should the goal not be returning them to the wild. This sounds more like a zoo where people with a guilt complex come to work.

maybe you not too smart but if you read the thread it clearly states that animals have been abused attacked by dogs had limbs amputated how on earth are you going to return then to the wild.

Additionally Gall Bladder bears that have been caged all their life and had their gall bladders drained for years on end stuck in a cage and then rescues how do you think that animal could be set free IMPOSSIBLE

Many of these animals are destined to be caged the rest of there lives at least there they are loved and taken care of or were.

DK

Are the people who fan the flames while sitting close to the fire maybe "not too smart" also?

Out of interest can we have numbers and types released into the wild over the last say 3 years, also an inventory of the type of animals who are long term 'refugees' from their natural habitat

Seems you are not allowed to be critical here. You cant ask about the profit / salary of the founder. You cant ask how many animals are returned. You cant state its a tourist attraction just like the tiger temple. But its supposed to be good because its farang lead. A deafening silence remains as an answer to the critical questions.

[cowslip]

Pardon me for being ignorant, but should the goal not be returning them to the wild. This sounds more like a zoo where people with a guilt complex come to work.

maybe you not too smart but if you read the thread it clearly states that animals have been abused attacked by dogs had limbs amputated how on earth are you going to return then to the wild.

Additionally Gall Bladder bears that have been caged all their life and had their gall bladders drained for years on end stuck in a cage and then rescues how do you think that animal could be set free IMPOSSIBLE

Many of these animals are destined to be caged the rest of there lives at least there they are loved and taken care of or were.

DK

Are the people who fan the flames while sitting close to the fire maybe "not too smart" also?

Out of interest can we have numbers and types released into the wild over the last say 3 years, also an inventory of the type of animals who are long term 'refugees' from their natural habitat

Seems you are not allowed to be critical here. You cant ask about the profit / salary of the founder. You cant ask how many animals are returned. You cant state its a tourist attraction just like the tiger temple. But its supposed to be good because its farang lead. A deafening silence remains as an answer to the critical questions.

You don't seem to grasp basic differences - e.g. "statement" and "question", how to put forward an argument or form an opinion.

If you actually had something to say, you'd get an answer.

[taninthai]

Just been looking at enp site and I never realised you have to pay 12000 bht a week if ypu want to be a volunteer there does this place work the same way

I'm all for helping animals and respect people that give up there free time to work there unpaid but IMO having to pay swell is taking the biscuit

[DP25]

Just been looking at enp site and I never realised you have to pay 12000 bht a week if ypu want to be a volunteer there does this place work the same way

I'm all for helping animals and respect people that give up there free time to work there unpaid but IMO having to pay swell is taking the biscuit

Volunteering is big business

Website for this place says 300 Euros for 1 week volunteering

http://www.wfft.org/...-rescue-centre/

[sparebox2]

Farang love animals.

Farang do eveything to help animals.

Thai govt officials are all corrupted.

Edited February 29, 2012 by sparebox2

[robblok]

Pardon me for being ignorant, but should the goal not be returning them to the wild. This sounds more like a zoo where people with a guilt complex come to work.

maybe you not too smart but if you read the thread it clearly states that animals have been abused attacked by dogs had limbs amputated how on earth are you going to return then to the wild.

Additionally Gall Bladder bears that have been caged all their life and had their gall bladders drained for years on end stuck in a cage and then rescues how do you think that animal could be set free IMPOSSIBLE

Many of these animals are destined to be caged the rest of there lives at least there they are loved and taken care of or were.

DK

Are the people who fan the flames while sitting close to the fire maybe "not too smart" also?

Out of interest can we have numbers and types released into the wild over the last say 3 years, also an inventory of the type of animals who are long term 'refugees' from their natural habitat

Seems you are not allowed to be critical here. You cant ask about the profit / salary of the founder. You cant ask how many animals are returned. You cant state its a tourist attraction just like the tiger temple. But its supposed to be good because its farang lead. A deafening silence remains as an answer to the critical questions.

You don't seem to grasp basic differences - e.g. "statement" and "question", how to put forward an argument or form an opinion.

If you actually had something to say, you'd get an answer.

More smoke and mirrors but no answers.

Ill make it simple:

- How many animals are returned on a yearly basis

- How many are kept there forever

- How much does the farang director make please include stuff like housing and transport

Just so i can form an opinion about this place if its a money making pit for a highly paid pretender or its something that is truly a good cause. So far i think the former. The prices he is asking are insane, and that is what makes me think its all about the money. Because i highly doubt with those prices they look at the qualification of the "volunteers" but only at their wallets. If that is true then the volunteers are probably unskilled and unfit to handle these animals.

[robblok]

Just been looking at enp site and I never realised you have to pay 12000 bht a week if ypu want to be a volunteer there does this place work the same way

I'm all for helping animals and respect people that give up there free time to work there unpaid but IMO having to pay swell is taking the biscuit

Volunteering is big business

Website for this place says 300 Euros for 1 week volunteering

http://www.wfft.org/...-rescue-centre/

Sounds like a great money making sceam.

[IanForbes]

If anyone has an extra tiger skin or a couple of large elephant tusks available I'm in the market for them. I need them for my holiday estate to impress people.

[taninthai]

Just been looking at enp site and I never realised you have to pay 12000 bht a week if ypu want to be a volunteer there does this place work the same way

I'm all for helping animals and respect people that give up there free time to work there unpaid but IMO having to pay swell is taking the biscuit

Volunteering is big business

Website for this place says 300 Euros for 1 week volunteering

http://www.wfft.org/...-rescue-centre/

Sounds like a great money making sceam.

I'm pretty shocked never realised you had to actually pay if you wanted to help these kind of places out thought they might expect a little donation but they are talkin big money if you want to help them out.

[cowslip]

THere is no set amount for donations - you can give a much or as little as you want.

Volunteers get to stay there and learn about the issues surrounding conservation and care of wildlife - so they are charged a fee depending on how long they intend to stay. It is considered that the experience of working there has value.

THe fee can be waived or reduced in certain circumstances.

Edited March 4, 2012 by cowslip

[cowslip]

repeat post erased

Edited March 4, 2012 by cowslip

[robblok]

THere is no set amount for donations - you can give a much or as little as you want.

Volunteers get to stay there and learn about the issues surrounding conservation and care of wildlife - so they are charged a fee depending on how long they intend to stay. It is considered that the experience of working there has value.

THe fee can be waived or reduced in certain circumstances.

Still no answer on the other questions. Seems like it still a CEO with a nice coushy job living of the animals that wont be returned to the wild.

Not saying they don't do any good work at all, just saying the guy makes sure he gets paid well and that his source of income (the animals) won't go to the wild so he looses income.

But it was a good idea of him to do the DNA thing on the elephants. But people in glas houses..... IF they had nothing on him im sure the raid would not have happened and could be turned over to lawyers who sort it out.

[taninthai]

THere is no set amount for donations - you can give a much or as little as you want.

Volunteers get to stay there and learn about the issues surrounding conservation and care of wildlife - so they are charged a fee depending on how long they intend to stay. It is considered that the experience of working there has value.

THe fee can be waived or reduced in certain circumstances.

Sorry but on the enp site you have to pay 12000 bht per week and maximum stay is two weeks IMO this is not good for the animals ,animals get used to people and just as they are getting used to the people they then move them on and bring in new volunteers paying another 12000 bht surely it's better to have long term volunters that the animals are used to these volunteers then learn the ropes and do not need someone standing over them all the time teaching them how the sanctuary works and what is required of them this would free up people at the sanctuary to get on with other more important work that needs doing rather then going through the same routine every week getting rid of current volunteers to be replaced with new paying volunteers.

What ever happened to I will give you my time and work for free in return for lodge and food.

[cowslip]

;IMO this is not good for the animals ,animals get used to people and just as they are getting used to the people

and you are basing this "theory" on what?

<p>

THere is no set amount for donations - you can give a much or as little as you want. Volunteers get to stay there and learn about the issues surrounding conservation and care of wildlife - so they are charged a fee depending on how long they intend to stay. It is considered that the experience of working there has value. THe fee can be waived or reduced in certain circumstances.

Sorry but on the enp site you have to pay 12000 bht per week and maximum stay is two weeks IMO this is not good for the animals ,animals get used to people and just as they are getting used to the people they then move them on and bring in new volunteers paying another 12000 bht surely it&#39;s better to have long term volunters that the animals are used to these volunteers then learn the ropes and do not need someone standing over them all the time teaching them how the sanctuary works and what is required of them this would free up people at the sanctuary to get on with other more important work that needs doing rather then going through the same routine every week getting rid of current volunteers to be replaced with new paying volunteers. What ever happened to I will give you my time and work for free in return for lodge and food.

</p>

<div id="myEventWatcherDiv" style="display:none;">&nbsp;</div>

Edited March 4, 2012 by cowslip

[hughben]

Any updates?

[hellodolly]

while what I have seen here is deplorable I would like to know if they have the proper papers why did they not come up with them in three days.