I Don'T Know If This Is Useful...

[endure]

I was just wandering round the 'net

http://www.soas.ac.uk/languagecentre/teachers/resources/thai/

[Route21]

File28161 shows "Jor Jaan" as being pronounced as "coo"?

Not sure how they work that one out!

R21

[Richard W]

File28161 shows "Jor Jaan" as being pronounced as "coo"?

Not sure how they work that one out!

Your lack of knowledge leads you to the edge of lèse majesté.

In linguistic works, /c/ is used to represent a palatal stop or a similar sounding affricate. Word-initial English 'ch' matches this scheme. Thus when Rama VI presented a scheme of transliterating Thai to English, he naturally followed the tradition of transliterating จ as 'c'. The use of oo as opposed to oo indicates that they want a symbol not within their typing abilities. In this case, oo means what the IPA writes as ɔɔ.

[Route21]

In linguistic works, /c/ is used to represent a palatal stop or a similar sounding affricate. Word-initial English 'ch' matches this scheme. Thus when Rama VI presented a scheme of transliterating Thai to English, he naturally followed the tradition of transliterating จ as 'c'. The use of oo as opposed to oo indicates that they want a symbol not within their typing abilities. In this case, oo means what the IPA writes as ɔɔ.

Many thanks for your very helpful explanation. No offence intended.

The subject title was: "I don't know if this is useful .....".

I suspect that without your specialist advice it wouldn't otherwise have been understood by many TV members like me, who are attempting to bite the bullet and learn Thai.

I'm also surprised that such an eminent body as SOAS, just down the road from my own college (UCL), wouldn't have the capability of inserting IPA symbols, which doesn't help.

It's not easy when almost every "Learn Thai" book uses a different pronunciation system, such as:

The "a" sound in วัน (or วัด) : "sounds like the [American?] English "won". It is never the "a" of [American?] English "cat"."

All Thais around where I am pronounce the "a" in both "wan" and "wat" exactly like the (British) English words "can" and "cat"!

They will, however, treat a farang's pronunciation of "wat" as "wot" (similar to the English word "what") as being the English word for วัด.

Regards

R21

[Richard W]

It's not easy when almost every "Learn Thai" book uses a different pronunciation system, such as:

The "a" sound in วัน (or วัด) : "sounds like the [American?] English "won". It is never the "a" of [American?] English "cat"."

All Thais around where I am pronounce the "a" in both "wan" and "wat" exactly like the (British) English words "can" and "cat"!

They will, however, treat a farang's pronunciation of "wat" as "wot" (similar to the English word "what") as being the English word for วัด.

This is, of course, a very variable area for British English!

• Many people rime English "won" with "gone" rather than with "bun".
  
• The Northern English, especially Lancashire, pronunciation of "can" ('tin can') and "cat" is a reasonable match for Thai "wan" 'day' and "wat" 'wat'. Modern Southern English "can" and "cat" are also fairly close, though this was not so for most of the 20th century. (The OED switched from /æ/ to /a/, thouɡh they may have reverted.)
  

Pronunciation notations are rather like Thai writing - you have to recalibrate your reading to each new system or font. Part of the problem is that many people have not troubled to learn the commoner symbols of the IPA - though it's useful knowledge if you're going to work with several foreign languages.

[Route21]

Hi Richard

From your spelling ("rime") of the word "rhyme", with confirmation from the AME entry in "the free dictionary" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rime), I would guess, although not apparent from your limited profile info, that you hail from North America.

Was my characterisation as AME correct in: The "a" sound in วัน (or วัด) : "sounds like the [American?] English "won". It is never the "a" of [American?] English "cat"."

Although I have spent almost all my working life in multinationalAmerican oil & gas companies, both in the UK and Middle East, I haven't personally come across anyone pronouncing "won" as "one" (to rhyme with "gone") such as in: "We "one" that debate too easily" - whether in AME or BrE. See also AME reference in: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/won.

I have, however, heard those with an American accent pronounce "gone" as either "gorn [away]" or "garn [away]", which could result in "won" being pronounced as "worn"/"warn".

One of the problems with the original link is that it apparently mixes transliterations that many native English speakers, without a detailed knowledge of Thai history, wouldn't recognise, with pseudo-IPA characters both of which don't immediately suggest the correct pronunciation.

Best regards

R21

[Richard W]

From your spelling ("rime") of the word "rhyme", with confirmation from the AME entry in "the free dictionary" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rime), I would guess, although not apparent from your limited profile info, that you hail from North America.

I believe 'rime' is the preferred spelling in at least some versions of the OED. I do not hail from North America.

Was my characterisation as AME correct in: The "a" sound in วัน (or วัด) : "sounds like the [American?] English "won". It is never the "a" of [American?] English "cat"."

From what I can tell, yes.

Although I have spent almost all my working life in multinationalAmerican oil & gas companies, both in the UK and Middle East, I haven't personally come across anyone pronouncing "won" as "one" (to rhyme with "gone") such as in: "We "one" that debate too easily" - whether in AME or BrE. See also AME reference in: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/won.

I looked for a rendition of "We won the cup" on Youtube, and found "won" riming with "gone" in the first example I got - Roy Hudd singing at http://www.youtube.c...?v=FX97mqoTm_M. The dictionary you quote also doesn't record that some (many?) rime "one" with "gone", not with "done".

One of the problems with the original link is that it apparently mixes transliterations that many native English speakers, without a detailed knowledge of Thai history, wouldn't recognise, with pseudo-IPA characters both of which don't immediately suggest the correct pronunciation.

The materials are very much back-up for a course rather than stand-alone information. However, I don't think one need know much Thai history. A smattering of Roman-script Pali or Sanskrit would suffice without knowing any Thai-script Pali or Sanskrit. If you can pronounce anicca, you're off to a good start. Even knowing a Roman-script Slavic language would point one in the right direction.