Question Regarding Obtaining A Thai Birth Cert And Thai Passport By Mother

[RichardColeman]

OK, I married mother (Thai), she came to live UK 2001. I divorced her (yes believe it) 2005. I got back with her in 2006 and then had two children 2007 and 2009.

1st son, I went to Thai embassy in London and filled and filed all papers, signatures etc with mother - no problem. Got passport very quickly.

2nd son, did same thing, but was rejected as mother had changed her name in Thailand and now her hai passport no longer matched UK birth certificate - or at least this is what she told me at the time.

I separated again with her in 2009. 2010 residence hearing she states 2nd son can get dual nationality when he is older himself if he wants it.

Now, last year she she took both children to Thailand due to death of mother. Assuming 2nd son had on UK passport, when mother failed to return the children I asked to see a copy of the extended visa - as parental responsibility I think I have that right, and wanted to ensure they were there legally. This was not answered.

However, in court yesterday, her solicitor told me 2nd HAD a Thai passport.

Can a mother get a birth cert and passport without dad's knowledge and consent ? I have not signed anything since 2009, and Embassy say you would have to apply again.

I asked embassy and they said still needs fathers consent, and form what I read on here and elsewhere she would still need my agreement in Thailand, as it might not be true.

Embassy say they will trace application for me if I give them passport number, which as anyone knows who has split with a vindictive ex knows they will not do - even her solicitor says she does not have to give it she does not want to.

I know she can fill a form in saying absent and unable to trace father.

Can anyone shine any light on this ?

[Mario2008]

Not sure about the birth certificate, but a passport requires the signature of both parents. (The story that the child can choose dual nationality in future is not true. The child already has dual nationality by way of birth. What needs to be done, and was done, is that a Thai birth certificate is obtained. Than the Thai goevrnment knows a Thai citizen is born and has a record of him).

The mother would have been able to get a pasport for the second child if she could have convinced the embassy that the has sole parental rights. Perhaps the second marriage was not recorded with the Thai government or the name change made things confusing.

[RichardColeman]

The mother would have been able to get a pasport for the second child if she could have convinced the embassy that the has sole parental rights. Perhaps the second marriage was not recorded with the Thai government or the name change made things confusing.

I did not remarry her, son was born out of wedlock. Not sure what you mean by 'sole parental rights'. Mother has residence, but i have parental responsibility and a contact order by UK courts. And mother would not be able to change name of baby - I do not know if she has - since it is against the UK late for child to be known under a different name.

She has UK birth certificate, but from what I see on here, even if mother had UK birth certificate, she would still have to obtain father's signature at the embassy, unless she could show that father was either absent - or had sole parental responsibility.

Can you clarify parental rights - is that parental responsibility or residence ?

Basically I need help to show if the passport was obtained illegally.

Does that clarify anything ?

[ludditeman]

The mother would have been able to get a pasport for the second child if she could have convinced the embassy that the has sole parental rights. Perhaps the second marriage was not recorded with the Thai government or the name change made things confusing.

I did not remarry her, son was born out of wedlock. ......

And that's the answer, under Thai law if you son was born more than 10 months after the divorce, Thailand will not consider you the father and she has sole responsibility for the boy. So she could get all the Thai documentation without you being involved.

I don't think the Thai officials would consider UK law, or UK court orders as valid, even if they knew about them.

Edited February 25, 2012 by ludditeman

[RichardColeman]

The mother would have been able to get a pasport for the second child if she could have convinced the embassy that the has sole parental rights. Perhaps the second marriage was not recorded with the Thai government or the name change made things confusing.

I did not remarry her, son was born out of wedlock. ......

And that's the answer, under Thai law if you son was born more than 10 months after the divorce, Thailand will not consider you the father and she has sole responsibility for the boy. So she could get all the Thai documentation without you being involved.

I don't think the Thai officials would consider UK law, or UK court orders as valid, even if they knew about them.

If that is the case, would mean her not putting me on the Thai birth certificate, is that correct ? Which I would imagine would not be looked kindly upon by the UK courts - since it would mean I have no way of going to a Thai court as I had been deliberately left off and she could just deny I was the father. But your answer does not make sense also, since this son was born in UK and parental responsibility was given. Once parental responsibility was issued - prior to her obtaining passport - surely that means something ?

It is my understanding that she would still have to obtain a copy of the birth cert and I believe I would have had to have signed this to show I was the father - unless as I said she said unknown or something.

[ludditeman]

The mother would have been able to get a pasport for the second child if she could have convinced the embassy that the has sole parental rights. Perhaps the second marriage was not recorded with the Thai government or the name change made things confusing.

I did not remarry her, son was born out of wedlock. ......

And that's the answer, under Thai law if you son was born more than 10 months after the divorce, Thailand will not consider you the father and she has sole responsibility for the boy. So she could get all the Thai documentation without you being involved.

I don't think the Thai officials would consider UK law, or UK court orders as valid, even if they knew about them.

If that is the case, would mean her not putting me on the Thai birth certificate, is that correct ? Which I would imagine would not be looked kindly upon by the UK courts - since it would mean I have no way of going to a Thai court as I had been deliberately left off and she could just deny I was the father. But your answer does not make sense also, since this son was born in UK and parental responsibility was given. Once parental responsibility was issued - prior to her obtaining passport - surely that means something ?

It is my understanding that she would still have to obtain a copy of the birth cert and I believe I would have had to have signed this to show I was the father - unless as I said she said unknown or something.

In Thailand the father does not have to be present when the birth certificate is issued.

Therefore Thai law doesn't not recognise that a mans name in the box marked 'father' has any meaning.

Unless the mother and father are married, marry at a later date, or the father follows the official affirmation process (with the womans permission)

You are officially 'not the father' in Thailand at this time. You have no rights at all over the boy, while he is in Thailand.

Why would she care about the UK courts, she isn't there and neither is the child.

Edited February 25, 2012 by ludditeman

[RichardColeman]

Sorry, also would mother not have to state that the father has responsibility for the child ? Would father's name go on certificate if not present ? Or is it just translated into Thai ?

[RichardColeman]

No, she is here now. And we are back in the courts again over residence .I am trying to show she is trying to get me out of the children's lives and has risk of absconding. What I need to know is, is there a way that she can declare me with parental responsibility when obtaining birth cert, but chose to ignore it or not do it. Basically, I want to show she did not try to put in it somewhere the father. If so I wish to use this against her, Thankx for your answers.

[ludditeman]

Sorry, also would mother not have to state that the father has responsibility for the child ? Would father's name go on certificate if not present ? Or is it just translated into Thai ?

She could put your name (translated into Thai script) on the Thai birth certificate.

She could put any other mans name on the Thai birth certificate (her father or brothers name is common)

She could put 'no father' on the birth certificate and use her family name for the boy.

The name on the Thai birth certificate has little meaning and gives no parental responsibility, unless they are married.

If she is smart, she will have your name on the Thai birth certificate, as it has no negative impact on her if she removed the child to Thailand.

As for court action in the UK, she can always accuse you of suicidal tendencies or violence and keep you away from the children anyway.

I am sympathetic to your plight, women can be very nasty to the fathers of their children, and many seem to enjoy separating a father from his children.

Edited February 25, 2012 by ludditeman

[Mario2008]

Where was the child born?

If born in Thailand, you are not the legal fahter. if born in the UK, it seems you legitimized the child under Uk law and that is normally recognized by Thailand as it is done according to the law the child was born in.

The Thai birth certificate would just follow the official UK birth certificate if born in the UK.

[RichardColeman]

Where was the child born?

If born in Thailand, you are not the legal fahter. if born in the UK, it seems you legitimized the child under Uk law and that is normally recognized by Thailand as it is done according to the law the child was born in.

The Thai birth certificate would just follow the official UK birth certificate if born in the UK.

Child born UK. Uk birth cert, Basically all I want to know is has she done everything to ensure that 1. I am on the birth cert, 2. Tried to ensure that I have full responsibility of the child under Thai law - don't think UK court would approve if not. 3. That she did not change sons name. 4. The passport was not obtained fraudulently by use of some stolen documents. Simple as that.

I am not against him having a Thai passport. Only that it was done correctly, and she tried to ensure as much as possible that I have some form of responsibility. This is a lady who has previously lied under oath (provable), made countless false allegations, tried to have me convicted of things and not turned up at court. General dishonesty. I would not put it past her to obtain it illegally. That is the only reason I want to know.

[ludditeman]

I am not against him having a Thai passport. Only that it was done correctly, and she tried to ensure as much as possible that I have some form of responsibility. This is a lady who has previously lied under oath (provable), made countless false allegations, tried to have me convicted of things and not turned up at court. General dishonesty. I would not put it past her to obtain it illegally. That is the only reason I want to know.

This is entirely normal behaviour for a mother in a UK court.

The court will forgive her everything, but they will forgive you nothing.

Edited February 25, 2012 by ludditeman

[Mario2008]

The UK birth certificate is the official one, the Thai birth certificate is more a report to the Thai government so they know a Thai citizen was born.

if everythingw as done according procedure, she could not have obtained a Thai passprot for your son without you signing the application. So either a mistake was made or false documents issued. Without seeing the docuemtns itself, you can't be sure of either.

Thai passport application procedure for a minor is described here: http://www.mfa.go.th/web/473.php?id=3167

[RichardColeman]

Thai passport application procedure for a minor is described here: http://www.mfa.go.th...473.php?id=3167

Reading the below from that link - I would guess she can, but the it questions the difference between residence, custody, parental responsibility and contact. She does have residence, I have parental responsibility. Just goes to show that a divorced father can lose his children if a mother is given residence and leaves the country !!

If the applicant’s parents were divorced or did not live together, a parent who is present to sign the parental consent form will need to bring the memorandum of divorce

proving sole custody of the appearing parent.

[Mario2008]

The mother pretended to have sole custody, which she could do because she was divorced. That might be deception.

Legally you can prevent a mother from leaving the country with the children, but you need to go to court for that. Only a court can order it.

You can now try to have the autorities try to act on child kidnapping, or bring a case in Thailand. A case in Thailand will see you having shared legal parenthood with the mother, but the court can order that the children cannot leave the country.