Better To Use Agency For Marriage Visa?

[dangnanglao]

I have been with my girlfriend exclusively now for two years straight and she is 5 months pregant with our child, so I want to get married soon for a whole host of reasons.

After that I'd like to get the marriage visa - better than the retirement visa in this case because I can get a WP, and the finances are easier. In six years I'll retire with a pension and likely convert to the retirement visa and not work anymore.

My current reasoning with regards to the WP is that if I'm working as a teacher and for whatever reason I lose that job, the WP is void and so would be a visa tied to that job. So I figure if I already have the visa via marriage I can look for another job at my leisure and not worry about how to stay in Thailand.

It's no problem for me to do the visa application paperwork myself (though it is time consuming) but I have been advised by some that it's a lot easier to just use an agency to do all the running around getting document transalations, etc. I know of no reason why I would be rejected, but I am 56 and she is 30, a farm girl with two children already (from Issan, of course). If my wife was a professional with a good education, etc, the process would likely be slam dunk. That's why I want to know if it is advisable to use an agency, because they will be able to grease the skids as it were, to make sure the process goes smoothly (wink, wink).

We have lived together the whole time, partly in BKK, and partly in Pattaya, but aside from taking some photos, how exactly do you prove that to immigration's satisfaction? I'm assuming the interview process is very important in that regard.

Would it be better to wait until the child is born for more evidence?

What other evidence of a real marriage is good to produce?

Also, I am divorced but getting a bona fide divorce certificate from California takes at least six months and I can't wait that long. I was advised just to say I've never been married, to the US embassy, and to the Thai authorities. Not likely anyone would ever checkup on me, but any potential pitfalls here aside from that fact that technically it's purgery? I will of course apply to get the divorce certificate so I have it in case of future issues.

Agencies typically charge somewhere in the 10,000 to 20,000 THB range, so it ain't chump change. Any adivse on how to pick an agency, should I decide to use one?

Thanks guys!

[lopburi3]

You are really asking if it is OK to lie under oath on an official document at the US Embassy? You are at risk of spending your retirement in the US at taxpayers expense.

The document you need for a marriage extension of stay is a marriage certificate and you do not qualify now - it has nothing to do with your GF being poor or rich or proving a relationship. You must have a marriage certificate to extend for Thai wife reasons.

For now if you have employment option why not take that road, legally, and return to the marriage branch when you can legally marry?

As for using an agency there is no need if legal and if not legal they can not protect you if found out.

[wayned]

The "free to marry" certificate is a notorized statement that requires no proof. According to California law if you are legallaly divorced you are free to marry again 6 months from the date the the divorce degree is issued. It clearly states on my divorce papers "THIS JUDGEMENTIS FINAL 6 MONTHS FROM THE DATE FILED". I took my paperwork and the embassy didn't even look at it. So if you are clearly divorced and 6 months has passed since it was filed you can fill out the affidavit stateing that you are divorced you don't need any paperwork from California. Don't say that you were never married.

If it hasn't been 6 months since you filed in California, I would think twice before jumping from the frying pan into the fire! My opinion only!

[Gone]

So many people think you cannot work on a Non-O Retirement visa but this is just not true

[NancyL]

So many people think you cannot work on a Non-O Retirement visa but this is just not true

When I did the 12-month retirement extension for my O visa last month in Chiang Mai, I was required to sign a statement that I understood I couldn't work. The visa extension is stamped "retirement" in big red letters. They haven't done this in previous years of retirement extensions.

Perhaps this is one of those "rules" that is enforced differently from one office to another and from one director to the next.

[lopburi3]

Normally a work permit will not be issued for retirement extension of stay; so you can not work in Thailand. In the past there were a handful of exceptions but do not believe any office will make such exceptions for new applicants. If you want to work you do not extend for retirement.

[Lifer]

So many people think you cannot work on a Non-O Retirement visa but this is just not true

Your giving out bogus information!! You are bnot qualified to get a WP or work inThailand if you are here on a retirement extension. If on a married extension, no problem getting a WP. What Thailand are you in?

[overherebc]

So many people think you cannot work on a Non-O Retirement visa but this is just not true

Your giving out bogus information!! You are bnot qualified to get a WP or work inThailand if you are here on a retirement extension. If on a married extension, no problem getting a WP. What Thailand are you in?

At last someone who agrees with me that you can get a WP when you hold an 'O' married extension. The requirement is a Non-Immigrant visa.

[dangnanglao]

Thanks for the prompt replies.

Yes, I plan to get married soon. The issue is that while the US Embassy may not care about you not having a copy of your divorce decree, the Thai authorities may. I know of several people who just said they were never married, to avoid the whole mess and no one ever checked. Does the "Ok to marry" certificate from the US embassy indicate your marital status (according to your sworn statement)? If not, then I don't have to lie under oath. Naturally I'd rather not, but waiting more than six months for an official certificate from California isn't really an option either.

I've been here on a non-ed visa which is running out in two months. I can't afford to stay here without income much longer, so getting another non-ed for a whole year more is not viable - I have to get a job, which most likely means teaching. I'm planning on getting the TEFL here in Pattaya soon. I'm a degreed and experienced electrical engineer, but finding work in short order at my age - probably not going to happen.

So therefore I need a WP. It would be a whole lot more convenient if I already had a long term visa that allowed a WP and that was not tied to specific employment so I could take jobs at will and not have to leave the country and deal with all the expense and paperwork every time I change jobs. Also, getting a visa specifically for work means I'd have to go back home to do it. You can legally look for work on a non-ed visa, but that's running out before I get the TEFL. See? It's a timing issue.

The only reason I want an agency is because it's a known fact they can and do grease the skids (some agencies are remarkably blatant about it - you can in fact buy pretty much anything for a fee). In my case it's not to skirt the law which I have no intentions of doing, but to ensure I get the visa IF the evidence of a bona fide marriage for whatever reason, isn't up to snuff with the immigration folks. In other words I want to ensure I get the visa because it would be really difficult to go down another road and then have to do it all again later.

Barring getting a marriage visa in the next couple of months, I could always get another non-ed visa with one of the schools that allows incremental payments, so that I could look for work over perhaps six months and then convert to a work visa, and then at some point get the marriage visa. It's all doable but a big pain.

So my original question mostly was, are there any good agencies in Pattaya worth a look?

[TerryLH]

"Also, I am divorced but getting a bona fide divorce certificate from California takes at least six months and I can't wait that long."

If it was just filed, perhaps. If an older decree, you can obtain a copy from the county recorders office in short order.

[lopburi3]

Your understanding of visas is not correct. You can easily obtain a non immigrant B visa with school paperwork from any local Consulate to start your employment and when you get married change to one year extension of stay for marriage by meeting the normal financials conditions. There is never a need to return to home country for most nationalities.

[wayned]

I can only state my situation, I had the documentation and the US embasy did not require it to issue the "free to marry" certificate, which by the way has to be translated into Thai and certified at the MFA in Chaing Wattana. The Amphur where we were married didn't give a sh*t whether I had anything other than the "free to marry" certificate. Sometimes posters make it so diffuicult too understand the real world inThailand, the certificate is all that you need, except the intestinal fortutude to get married again!

[NancyL]

It's a very bad idea to use an agency that implies they are making payoffs or doing something that is "special", i.e. skirting the law. I've known people who end up with counterfeit stamps that don't check out with immigration officers during future contacts. If you pay a bribe once to get a visa (or extension) you could end up paying bribes every time you have to interface with immigration in the future.

[dangnanglao]

I misread the California website. It takes six months to get a certified copy via central records, and only for divorces prior to 1984. So I would have to get a copy from the Superior Courts house where it was filed, in Pomona. I was divorced in 2006. Unknown how long it would take, but they only respond to requests by mail. Not sure what the US embassy cares about either - certified copy or what.

@wayned - Did the "Ok to marry" certificate indicate anything about marital status?

When you read requirements for Thai marriage they state that if divorced, proof is required, so I'm guessing then that the certificate from the embassy is all you need as proof.

Maybe I'm not understanding the visa situation but I thought that if you went to school to get the TEFL you get a non-ed visa, just like I have now for learning Thai. After you finish the 6 week course, how do you look for a job (which could take months especially during the summer season)? Right now I can take the TEFL at the same time I'm still going to Thai class, but after the non-ed visa expires at the end of April, I either have to sign up again immediately for another course and non-ed or get some other visa.

I was wrong apparently about not being able to look for a job on a tourist visa, at least according to Ajarn:

Can I convert a tourist visa into a non-immigrant B without leaving Thailand?

Ajarn, 31st May 2011

Yes, this can be done if you are a teacher with a guaranteed job offer but surprise! surprise! there is a certain amount of hassle involved. A lot of the responsibility rests with your employer, who will need your paperwork in order to apply for a letter from the Thai Ministry of Education. This letter can take anything from 3-6 weeks to obtain.

Because of the hassle involved, many employers take the easy option of asking the teacher to go to a neighboring country such as Laos or Malaysia and apply for a new non-immigrant B visa from a Thai consulate or embassy in that country. Note that there is a cost of about 2,000 baht to upgrade a tourist visa to a non-immigrant if you take the first option.

To get the B working visa I need a job offer which could take months. In the meantime I need some kind of visa, after the current non-ed visa expires at the end of April.

Even if I got the O marriage visa, it seems the B is the better choice when working, according to Ajarn:

Generally (or it seems a lot of employers prefer) a Non-immigrant B Visa. Although it’s possible to obtain a work permit with a Non-immigrant O Visa, it seems a lot of employers either aren’t aware of this, or it’s too much hassle for them. Generally you’ll need at least a couple of months of your Visa left (which would initially be for 90 days) for the school to obtain all the needed paperwork…although if they can show they’re going through the motions Immigration can and will grant an extension (generally of around a month) to give your employer time enough to finish everything off.

Not sure why an employer would care what visa you have so long as it's legal, unless they like to use it as leverage in the case of disputes. You're more likely to bend if your visa is at stake.

So the way I see it I either get the marriage visa and look for work, or get another non-ed visa and look for work while going to Thai class or do the tourist visa again (last time I was doing that I got three 90 stints in a row via Laos but I suspect a fourth would have been rejected). It could take some time to find the right job - many are crap, and the good ones are in BKK requiring me to move back to the pollution and crowds I happily left (ugh). Would be nice to find one in Udon because the wife comes from that area.

I guess if I cross all my Ts and dot the Is too, I probably don't need an agency. This friend of mine did do it on his own and after all was said and done he recommended just paying an agency about 12,000 THB to make it all easier. It's apparently a lot of running around for all the documents and translations and if you miss one little thing you get rejected but won't know that until they're done, sometime during the 30 day waiting period.

I wasn't suggesting using an agency to skirt the law, only to ensure everything goes smoothly, because I have heard of people being extorted for money by immigration even after years of successfully getting O visas. That and maybe not being as strict with evidence if what I present (in good faith) isn't adequate. One must remember that it's ALWAYS at the discretion of the officer and there's not guarantee you'll get what you expect. A little cashola just helps. Happens in every country including the US.

Do I have this right now?

[Jayman]

There is no main reason to pay 12k thb for an agency to get you married. They can't go get the papers needed from the US Embassy for you. What you can do after you leave the US Embassy is to pay one of the local offices (usually they are waiting for you when you walk out of the embassy) to do the translation and file it (get the stamp) for you at the required office in BKK and then mail the form to you in Pattaya. It takes a few days (less than a week) but doesn't cost 12k thb. You could prob get it done for 1000thb tops (including translation). Now it's been over 7 years since I did this and can't remember how much I paid for that but I used MasterClass Translations which has an office just up the street from the US Embassy. Then, once you have the free to marry form back from the office in BKK to take it to the local amphur office and pay like 20thb to get married. Then the visa stuff is another process that requires no agent to do for you. If you are married (have the marriage cert) then I can't see why you would get denied an extension based on marriage or even to get your current stamp converted to a type o and then the extension based on marriage.

I find that the agents will try and push you to do it all and do it all very fast but if you are willing to just have them do the running around in BKK and don't need same day service you get save hassle and money.

[wayned]

Yes, the affidavit does ask marital status, one entry.

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/marriage_affidavit.pdf

Ypu take the certificate to a translation service and have it translated. There are several across the street from the Embassy. They will also have it legalized at the MFA and mail it to you. The affidavit is $50 and the translation and certifcation was 1500 baht, but that was many years ago. The Amphur office only wants the certified affidavit, no other documentation is required.

[lopburi3]

You do not require an ED visa to study - many people are here on tourist visas attending classes. And you can always look for work on a tourist visa and when work paperwork is available exit for the B visa entry. As for business not wanting you to use O visa (marriage) extensions it is often selfish reasons - so they have your stay in there hands as if you quite you lose it.

[dangnanglao]

Ah, ok I see then - the affidavit is the actual document that you attest to, seal then affixed, and take to the Thai authorities at your local amphur.

What I had read, which probably varies from place to place and is subject to the usual vagaries of Thailand, is that the amphur may require additional proof of divorce beyond the affidavit.

I could always ask the wife to investigate the local office to see if that's the case, but as it's a small village and everybody knows everybody else, probably not an issue.

Yup, I think I'll just pursue the O visa and do it on my own. I asked over at Ajarn about some employers preferring the B visa and they agreed it's because they like the leverage (maybe), but if I already have the O when applying for the job I can say, well why do you want to spend the extra time and money for me to convert this to a B? Doesn't make sense. I suspect that some employers aren't aware of the O allowing a WP since it's only been in effect since 2006.

@NancyL - I assume you have the retirement visa, O-A, not the marriage visa, O, or was that before 2006?

If I already have the O (or the "B") , is it necessary to hop the border to get the WP?

One thing's for sure, as was pointed out by some, you can't believe all the hype you read on-line. There's even a rumor going around that foreigners over 50 cannot marry a Thai. That was probably the result of an April fool's joke a few years back, on this very forum. It is however, true in Cambodia.

Thanks all!

...Jeff

[lopburi3]

I don't know where you get the 2006 date from as people have been using O visa extensions of stay and obtained work permits for the last 10 years that I have been reading this forum and am sure much longer from all posts I have seen.

[dangnanglao]

I was going by memory on that date - read it somewhere and sounds like I got it wrong.

Just read this on some commercial legal site:

One of the major downsides of the Thailand "O" Visa is the fact that depending upon the reason the visa holder was granted the visa they may or may not be able to obtain a work permit. Generally, only those in Thailand on a Non-Immigrant "O" Visa who were granted the visa based upon marriage to a Thai "B" visa holder will be entitled to obtain a work permit in their own right. This is not a hard and fast rule, but if one's intention is to come to Thailand for the purpose of starting a business or engaging in employment, then the Thailand "O" Visa is probably not the correct immigration option.

So given that the issuance is at the discretion of the immigration officer, I think it's important to have as much evidence as possible of a bona fide marriage, and when applying for a WP, wanting to teach probably carries a lot more weight than say, opening a bar.

I'll report back here in a few months...

[NancyL]

I have an O visa with a 12-month extension due to retirement. This year, for the first time, Chiang Mai immigration asked me to sign a form stating I wasn't working or going to work, including unpaid work, and the extension to stay stamp in my passport has a red "retirement" stamped over it. Never had that before.

Hubby has an O-A visa, obtained in the U.S. and CM Immigration has always asked him to sign the "I'm not working" form and he's always had the big red "retirement" stamp on the visa extension stamp in his passport.

You definitely don't need to use an agency for a retirement visa since there are fewer hoops to jump when compared with a marriage visa. Yet, the marriage visa can definitely be D-I-Y if you meet all the requirements and have the patience to do a little running around for documentation, etc. Depends on how much your time is worth.

[dangnanglao]

@NancyL - If you have an "O" visa for retirement (or pension, as it suggests below) is that because you're under 50? Otherwise the O-A would be more appropriate I would think.

I can see why they don't want you to work, simply because you're married to an O-A.

In my case the "O" would be for spousal support, so they shouldn't deny a WP.

From the NY Thai consulate:

Non immigrant visa-B: For the purposes of attending a conference, conducting business, or working in Thailand.

Non immigrant visa-ED: For the purposes of studying, work study tours, observation tours, participating in projects or seminars, attending training courses, or studying to be a foreign Buddhist monk in Thailand.

Non immigrant visa-O-A: For applicants ages 50 and above who wish to go to Thailand for a “Long Stay” period of 1 year.

Non immigrant visa-F: For official purposes.

Non immigrant visa-O: For other purposes, visiting family in Thailand, pension, etc.

[lopburi3]

Nancy is on a retirement extension of stay - not here on a visa. But she can, and did enter on a non immigrant O visa as it is the visa for those intending to extend for retirement or as dependent; and being over age 50 allows a Consulate to issue for either reason. You can not be here on a retirement extension of stay if under age 50 - if she were under age 50 and husband was here on retirement she could obtain dependent extension of stay however - as she could now - but she has chosen to use retirement. Consulate rules for issue of visas and immigration rules for extension of stay has little, or nothing, to do about work permits however - entirely different government department. So if they say no work permit, which seems to be happening more often recently, on non immigrant O extension of stay there is not much we can do about it.

[NancyL]

Lopburi's right.

Initially, Hubby and I each applied for an O-A in our home country, jumped thru all the hoops with police and medical checks and demonstrated financial accounts well over 1.6M baht. Two days before our flight, two weeks after we'd be told to expect the visa, they showed up. Hubby got the O-A, but I was given an a 90 day O. Never could get an answer why from the Chicago consulate, apparently they thought I wanted to be carried as a dependent on Hubby's O-A. No time to correct, so got here, opened a 800,000 baht account in my own name and when that 90-day O visa was within 30 days of expiring, I extended it for 1 year due to retirement. Huge waste of time and effort to try to get that O-A in the U.S. as far as I was concerned, since we still had to transfer funds into Thailand immediately for my own retirement extension.

Unless it's a financial hardship, I think a spouse should maintain their own visa and permission to stay. The fewer people between you and your visa, the better. No educational institution, employer or spouse to mess up your visa status.

[dangnanglao]

Yes, I want the O visa for exactly that reason - I don't want my existence in Thailand to be affected by job status. Over on the Ajarn board, many teachers are in exactly that situation and claim there are many more positive stories of schools accepting the O visa than those insisting on a B visa. When I turn 62 in six years I'll likely stop working, collect my social security and consider changing to the O-A for peace of mind. I'll get something on the order of $1,800/mo and nearly double that with a dependent child (one in the oven now). I'm champing at the bit! But in the meantime I need the extra income so I don't run my IRA to zero before 62.

[lopburi3]

O-A is a visa obtained in a foreign country - believe you mean retirement extension of stay from Immigration. As for the O or B it is the final decision on the part of Labor Office - not of any school (they can just help the process with paperwork and lawyers) - if they will issue a work permit on the O visa/extension will still be up to Labor.

[evadgib]

Assuming this isn't a Troll post one option would be to open a limited company with your wife as head & you as employee. This will provide you with a work permit that will remain yours regardless of who you actually work for (you'll be 'sub contracting').