Solar Power To Power Your Home?

[Crossy]

One must use 2 meters, one import and one export, these are combined in one meter. You must have a written agreement with your power supplier.

Is this available for small users in Thailand? I don't believe so. The simple electro-mechanical Watt/Hour meters just run backwards when exporting, provided you don't export more than you import nobody will ever know

Power is NOT stored on the grid, it is not a battery. The electricity you supply is the difference between the import and export in kWh.

I did say EFFECTIVELY You pump power into the grid during the day and extract it during the night, exactly the function of the storage batteries in a stand-alone system.

The inverter will shut down in the event of loss of supply by the network.

Yup, Island Protection. There are inverters available that can function as both grid-tie and stand-alone, they have protection switching (effectively a transfer switch) to prevent back feeds during power failures. Google grid-interactive inverter or look here http://www.ecodirect...ck-gtfx2524.htm NOTE these are 120V systems, you'll need to find 220V versions for Thailand.

[necronx99]

An australian company is currently running adds for a 2kw system with inverter installed for AUD 1999.00

Edited April 20, 2012 by necronx99

[sezze]

An australian company is currently running adds for a 2kw system with inverter installed for 1999.00

What ? 1999 baht ... i do not think so , otherwise show me the ad and contact adress .

[Crossy]

An australian company is currently running adds for a 2kw system with inverter installed for 1999.00

Assuming Oz Dollars that is very cheap, got a link??

[necronx99]

An australian company is currently running adds for a 2kw system with inverter installed for 1999.00

What ? 1999 baht ... i do not think so , otherwise show me the ad and contact adress .

Sorry Aust company = AUD 1999.00

Strangely, they have a 1.5kw system for 999.00

Doesn't 2 x 1.5 = 3kw?

[necronx99]

An australian company is currently running adds for a 2kw system with inverter installed for 1999.00

Assuming Oz Dollars that is very cheap, got a link??

It's on telly. I'll make a note when it pops up again. I suspect it includes rebates.

[Naam]

An australian company is currently running adds for a 2kw system with inverter installed for AUD 1999.00

the definition of "2kw system" is lacking. "2kw" without defining "watts per peak sunshine hour" or "watts per average sunshine hour" means nothing.

[electau]

Solar power, ie grid tied inverter systems use what is known as STCs. Small Scale Technology Certificates. They are linked to RECs Renewable Energy Certificates.

In Australia ( Qld) this is how they operate:

http://www.nqsolar.com.au/goverment_rebates.html

Thailand does not ( as far as it is known ) have a renewable energy policy.

A typical 1.6kw array will consist of 8 x 200W solar panels peak power with an open circuit voltage of 45VDC a short circuit current of 5.8amps and an optimum operating voltage of between 35 and 38VDC with an optimum operating current of 5.4amps They comply with VDE IEC61215 and test standard IEC61730..

They are conected in series configuration, the output will be 280VDC to 304VDC with this example with an optimum current of 5.4 amps.

Note: Output will be affected by cloud cover, continuous or intermittent in nature.

The STCs reduce the cost of the solar panels. The electricity supplier provides a feed in tarriff.

In this case $0.44 per kWh generated.

STCs or government subsidies, they serve the same purpose, to make solar power affordable. There is still a pay back time on your investment but it is much shorter.

Also the installation costs are at your expense, they are not subsidised. In Australia prices include GST.

[electau]

An australian company is currently running adds for a 2kw system with inverter installed for 1999.00

Assuming Oz Dollars that is very cheap, got a link??

The 2 kW mentioned indicates that is has a peak output of 2kW, probably 10 x 200W modules, most likely Chinese made. Price of solar panels less the STCs value.

$1999 installed. Current labour costs are $60 to $80 dollars per hour plus materials.

The inverter will be extra. Freight to site extra.

Clever marketing to attract the customer.

　

[hopdafru]

use the search function, read various threads and then forget about solar power to your home.

PV can indeed get expensive but for the occasional fai dam or small applications like RV, it's worth looking at:

I just bought over 300W of broken panels from a reseller who thought I was crazy to even ask. After looking around, he gave me a quote of $150 for about 10+ panels totaling 2000+W.

I went with a 200baht controller, 4 came out at 15-19V and I bought those for $40, I bought a 60amp gel battery and a 20 amp german made (used) charge controller.

I plugged everything back at home, I get up to 5 amps in full sunlight (instead of 8, considerably less than if the panels were new... but @ 10% of the price) and when the electricity is down, I can still watch TV or walk around at night for up to 2 hours straight.

Total cost: $200, thanks to a thread saying that panels break during transport and recommending to shop around.

I'm looking for more, so If any of you tries this in or around Udon/Nong Kai and there's more than what you need, please let me know, I'll buy the rest!

[MauroHKT]

I think with solar power we really want to just reduce costs and help the environment , we cant just say oh it takes 7 plus years its not worth it..........we could apply that principle to everything we do in life, this car over that car this location over that location etc, fact is its important to me but not you...end of story.

The system adds value, if you were selling the property to the right buyer it would it would be a hugh selling point, the doom and gloom merchants will say...but the panels only have a limited life span etc well there is always on going maintenance of your home so whats the big deal...you got a swimming poll that sucks the money out of your bank account...to each his own...

I started the post to see if it was in Thailand, it is and im interested.

I agree with you absolutely, and am extremely interested in finding a solar power installation company in Thailand who can provide me with a standalone solution - about 6KW peak, with batteries, inverters etc.

Please do let me know if you have (or anyone else has) experience of any good companies here, thanks!

I'm based in Phuket, I mainly convert pool from city AC power to solar.

I'll install same system in Pattaya, and on the main Island in the south I can provide you a free quote for a turnkey solution for a grid tie system

stand alone with batteries etc, as wrote many times on the forum its not worth it......

Mauro

[sezze]

use the search function, read various threads and then forget about solar power to your home.

PV can indeed get expensive but for the occasional fai dam or small applications like RV, it's worth looking at:

I just bought over 300W of broken panels from a reseller who thought I was crazy to even ask. After looking around, he gave me a quote of $150 for about 10+ panels totaling 2000+W.

I went with a 200baht controller, 4 came out at 15-19V and I bought those for $40, I bought a 60amp gel battery and a 20 amp german made (used) charge controller.

I plugged everything back at home, I get up to 5 amps in full sunlight (instead of 8, considerably less than if the panels were new... but @ 10% of the price) and when the electricity is down, I can still watch TV or walk around at night for up to 2 hours straight.

Total cost: $200, thanks to a thread saying that panels break during transport and recommending to shop around.

I'm looking for more, so If any of you tries this in or around Udon/Nong Kai and there's more than what you need, please let me know, I'll buy the rest!

You bought +2000watt , and you manage to have 5 amps ??? Or is it you are only using 4 panels as they were the only ones giving 15 to 19 volts ? What has happened to the rest of the panels and how damaged are they .

Are you looking for more broken panels ? or are you happy with cells ( need to be soldered together , not difficult , but it takes work ) .

[ABarbarian]

I live rurally (but on the grid) in Chiang Mai province and have been looking at a solar PV system to power our home and small business. When beginning this a few months ago I had no experience and found this forum which helped, I hope to pass on my experiences so they help others.

I am also working with ABO in Chiang Mai, Alessandro on 053-444082 has been a great help.

We use all up about 280-380units (kW h) per month, or 9-12 kW h/day. About 4B/unit so about 1000-1500B/month

Goals:

- Savings: There does not seem to be any Thai government rebate, and realization (time to save what you have spent) looks to me like about 15-25years depending on the level of system purchased, and considering maintenance it could extend further than this. We will see how this pans out but not the deciding factor for us. We however have no plans on leaving this home so this sort of realization is acceptable.

- Stabilization of power supply: Where we are located the power cuts regularly, and the grid supply is all over the place. We operate a handful of computers and go through about one UPS a year and the little UPS boxes cannot always handle the fluctuations. The power supply might be the cause of component failure which in addition to cost causes repair headaches and time (as I do everything myself). This is an important factor in our decision.

- Environment: Because we want stable power we are going off-grid (see below), so need to use batteries, which raises questions about whether the setup causes more or less environmental impact. There are many factors and hopefully less but not a deciding factor for us.

There are three basic types of systems:

- On-grid: Talked about a lot here, no batteries, in basic terms the power you generate goes out to the grid and you pull power from the grid, paying (or being paid) the net difference. Because you are hooked to the grid stabilization of power is not improved, also in Thailand everything seems to point to the power authority not wanting to pay you for excess production. In addition ABO told us when you do go on-grid the authority may try to get you to sign a paper saying any damage to components OUTSIDE YOUR SYSTEM you can be held responsible for, a pandoras box you do not want to open in Thailand!

- Hybrid: The system takes power from the batteries, when used up or more peak is needed the system switches to the grid. Requires batteries like an off-grid system and more expensive inverter/s.

- Off-grid: No connection to the grid, only batteries. This is the system we will probably go for.

There are also inverters that are not considered hybrid but have both grid and battery inputs (called ATS I believe), these default to the grid and when it fails switches to the batteries, similar to a standalone UPS. But you can add a breaker/switch to the grid cable, turning it off when you want to use batteries, then when the batteries are low painlessly switch across to the grid supply.

When working out the size of the system you need to look at the power consumption over time, but also need to have a system that can manage the peaks, for example appliances like water pumps and refrigerators cause a spike when they engage their motors, welders and sewing machines more so. This is only for a second but if a couple start at the same time you could overload your components. Most inverters can take a spike of 2-4 times their stated ratings, but some appliances case a 10 fold spike when engaging.

Computers do not cause much of a spike, but they do drain a considerable amount of power. The computers are the main purpose for us purchasing this system so what I plan on doing is installing an off-grid system that will power our computers and probably lights, and maintaining the grid supply for less important things like water pump and refrigerators, we also have sewing machines that are used rarely and will keep them on the grid. So to begin with appliances on solar will not cause much in the way of spikes so the system can be smaller.

We use about 9-12 kW h/day and I am looking at a 5-7kW solar system, using components that can be expanded if we feel there is worth doing so (or we increase number of computers etc). This size may be able to carry more appliances than just the computers and I may add tv/s refrigerators to it depending on how the load goes. For example our computers are used during the day and the tvs are normally on at night time (although this might cause wear on the batteries, see below).

I am planning on wiring this all myself, never done any electrical engineering before so if my posts suddenly stop you can guess why. But it will be a learning experience. I am thinking I will add separate power outlets near the appliances that will use the solar, perhaps separate lights as well, so if either the solar or the grid systems fail I can move appliances easily between them by plugging into a different socket.

ABO has kindly produced a number of quotes for me, they have explained that the solar panels are not important, the price on these are 50B/W and supposedly last for ages, they can be installed and forgot about.

The charge controller and the inverter are important, they are electrical components and can fail. The controller regulates the power from the solar panels to the batteries, if they do this well the batteries will last longer. The inverter is perhaps most important, it changes the DC power from the batteries to AC for your appliances and it runs hard and hot. Cheaper components here can make a big difference to the efficiency and stability of the system. For example better components can handle a large spike better than cheaper components which might burn out (eg if someone accidentally plugs a welder into a solar socket). When no appliances are plugged in there is residual power use in these components, cheaper ones will use more of this residual power, thus reducing the systems efficiency.

Batteries are also important due to full-life cost and maintenance. I am planning on starting with YUASA Deep Cycle batteries that need their water regularly topped up and will probably die in about 5 years, my decision here is that this whole solar supply is new to me and I want to try it out first, using this cheaper form of battery should not affect the stability of the system but saves cost until we are confident in it. Also the more expensive free maintenance batteries cost over twice as much and their expected life is about twice as long, so cost-wise it may be about the same (but more work needed on the cheap ones).

A batteries life in these systems is apparently longest when they do not discharge, so running the batteries down each day may seem an efficient way to use all the energy produced but can reduce the life of the batteries and increase overall costs.

ABO quoted us from the best quality and worked down from that, so initial systems were looking expensive at about 900k to power and cover everything, maybe a 9kW system using best components and batteries. We pulled that right down to looking at less powerful systems comparing German made STECA high quality components to what ABO considers lower quality (but still good) Taiwanese Powermaster components. We could put together a 7kW Powermaster system with 8 YUASA batteries and 2080W of solar panels for 250k. ABO advised we would be more satisfied using better components with perhaps less functionality, to keep the price inline with the Powermaster system we are looking at a 5kW system STECA system with 8 YUASA batteries and 1560W of panels for a price of about 240k.

Some other considerations:

- The inverter can cut off if overheated, or will run less efficient when hot so best to be in a cool place, sometimes it can be cost effective to set up a fan to keep it cool.

- Power will be lost as the length of the DC cables increases (panels -> controller -> batteries -> inverter), try to keep these as close as possible.

- Powermaster warranty was 1 year, I think Steca is 5yrs, solar panels are something like 15-20yrs.

- Systems we are looking at are 48V, batteries are 12V, so batteries are added in blocks of 4. Panels are similar, I think blocks of 8, maybe up to charge controller.

- When working with computers or sensitive appliances you want a Pure Sine-wave inverter, Modified Sine-wave inverters are not so stable but cheaper (also the case for a UPS)

- There are so many different configurations of panels/controllers/inverters, I am sticking with ABO's advice here and rather than go into detail on each that I investigated will pass on information about the system we settle with.

- Lead time through ABO for some of these components is about 30-45days. They can come out and instal but we will probably do it all ourselves.

That is it for now, I will try and give more information as the system develops. Like I said I am learning from scratch so any errors or questions let me know.

[Gary A]

I wouldn't have to worry about feeding into the grid because the area has no grid. The most power hungry usage would be a one HP submersible water pump. Other than that there would be a small refrigerator, TV, DVD player and lights.

My 2,500 watt generator handles the load easily. I am considering adding a battery charger, inverter and a deep cycle battery. Since the system would not be used everyday some roof mounted solar panels may help to avoid running the generator.

What would anyone suggest for sizes and expect this to cost? I already have the generator.

[electau]

A 2.70kW grid connected solar PV system (14 x 195w) panels will give an average daily output of 10.5kWh. with a 2.8kW inverter.

If you back this up with a diesel generator with an auto transfer switch which you use when the grid supply fails or you wish to use heavy loads .

The UPS supply power to critical equipment, ie computers, ( you may have more than one UPS)

The solar PV array may also be connected when the generator is operating cutting down on fuel consumption.

[canman]

Have any of you looked at fly wheel storage for your power? I did look at this a few years back and it looks promising. Flywheel storage of energy is the most efficent method available although the cost may be prohibitive. I do remember looking at some home built projects which claimed success.

[Morakot]

Have any of you looked at fly wheel storage for your power? I did look at this a few years back and it looks promising. Flywheel storage of energy is the most efficent method available although the cost may be prohibitive. I do remember looking at some home built projects which claimed success.

Nice to see people pushing the envelope. Usually, this forum tends to be more about practical solutions though.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Morakot

[electau]

Grid connected solar PV panels operate at 35VDC each and feed into the inverter at voltages ( depending on the size and configuration of the PV array ) in excess of 230V DC. An isolator must be installed between the solar array and the inverter unit.

The inverter shuts down if it does not detect the network supply. This is a mandatory requirement built in to the inverter to prevent backfeeding into the network and the electrical installation.

Inverters are designed to operate in a continuous ambient temperatures of 45C. and are most efficient when operating close to full load.

[pigeonjake]

i bought a small solar panel from england, well i got 2 of them they run 2 x 14wht bulbs, its enough to give light when you have children, i bought them from a farming mag in the uk, all was needed was a normal car battery, gives at least 8 hours light, there just the job for a stand by, ive got one in the house and one at the pigs,

jake

[electau]

Here are some technical aspects of RAPS systems.

RAPSS 1 (240Volt Homestead)

Solar Input: 4,160 Watts per Sunny Day, yearly average

28.8kW Stored capacity when full (48Volt Battery Bank)

This system will maintain power for a quality low kWhr draw 400Litre Fridge/Freezer, television and VCR, satellite dish, washing machine, toaster, jug, microwave oven, lights, fax machine and power tools. Approximately 1,500Watts per hour would be charged to battery bank when generator and battery charger is being run.

RAPSS 2 (240Volt Homestead)

Solar Input: 6,240 Watts per Sunny Day, yearly average

36kW Stored capacity when full (48Volt Battery Bank)

With the extra panels and larger battery capacity, this system will maintain a 360 Litre efficient freezer (6 star) as well as items run by previous system. Approximately 1,500Watts would be supplied per hour to the battery bank whilst the generator and battery charger is operating.

RAPSS 3 (240Volt Homestead)

Solar Input: 8,320 Watts per Sunny Day, yearly average

43.2kW Stored capacity when full (48Volt Battery Bank)

Along with the items in the RAPSS 2 System, a second fridge or freezer or more power tools, office equipment could be used with the additional power available. Approximately 1,500Watts per hour would be supplied by the generator and battery charger when required.

RAPSS 4 (240Volt Homestead)

Solar Input: 12,480 Watts per Sunny Day, yearly average

66.24kW Stored capacity when full (48Volt Battery Bank)

A second home could be bought onto this system, the generator may be required depending on the amount of refrigeration used. Approximately 4,000Watts per hour would be supplied by the generator if required.

RAPSS 5 (240Volt Homestead)

Solar Input: 20,592 Watts per Sunny Day, yearly average

79.68kW Stored capacity when full (48Volt Battery Bank)

A small well insulated cool room could be used with this system, or run appliances as per previous systems. A generator would supply 5,000Watts per hour if required.

http://www.australiansolar.com.au/rapss.htm

Edited October 4, 2012 by electau

[Gary A]

One quote;

2080W System. Average daily production: 6KW

Cost complete with batteries - 282,000 baht.

[crazykopite]

Solar units are way to expensive in Thailand and would take many many years to get your money back and with electric only costing 3.75 per unit is it worth it. What I did was to replace all my lights with LED which has reduced my running costs, other ways of saving costs are to look at systems such as PAC www.pac.co.th which supplies heat recovery systems an example would be having hot water by way of your air con you can even heat your swimming pool so there are many alternatives to solar power however what would be worthwhile would be to have one small solar panel which could give a constant supply to the Fridge /freezer . I am no expert but when building a property it is always good to build it in such a way that you can have constant air flow by simple design without having to burn endless energy to keep you cool

[sirineou]

I have being following a Photo voltaic panel installation thread in an other forum,

A 6 panel 3 kw system,

cost 150,000 bht

Area: Nakhon Phanom

system has no batteries feeds back in to the system (spins the meter backwards)

being up and ruining a few weeks now , it has being raining most of that time and he produces 10 kw a day , about 50% of his daily needs

finally he had a sunny day , and on that day he produced 15 kw.

we are waiting for long term results, but at these costs and production levels definitely an economically viable option. And it will only get better as equipment costs go down while electric costs increase,

[IsaanUSA]

What I did was to replace all my lights with LED which has reduced my running costs, other ways of saving costs are to look at systems such as ...

I walked around my place and took note of the things that run 24/7. Modem, router, switch, NAS, DVR, and refrigerator. As those things got old or stopped working, I replaced them with units that consumed less power. Even if you buy a new router that consumed 10 watts less, when it is running 24 hours a day, it adds up over a year. Use efficient light bulbs. Buy TVs that are more efficient than others (if the price is about the same).

Reduce, reduce, reduce.

[TwoDogz]

It is cheaper these days , and grid connecting is possible now . This will save you a lot on the batteries so payback time is now actually quite within reach .

Bullsheister.

While it can be done, it is not being done. This from the biggest listed solar company here that visited my place the other week for a quote....800k.

[electau]

If using a grid connected system one requires a feed-in tariff from the supply authority. Metering is by one of two methods, the gross method and the net method.

With either method the existing meter is replaced with one where the grid and the solar PV array are connected to. This is a microprocessor controlled digital meter.

With the gross method the meter records the total kWhs consumption from the grid and the total kWh consumption from the PV array when generating output which is supplied to the grid.

With the net method the meter records the total kWh consumption from the grid and the kWh supplied to the grid from the PV array when generating output. The kWhs that one uses from the PV array is not recorded.

With the gross method and the net method the feed in tariff only applies to the kWhs that are supplied to the grid.

Example. With the net method if one uses 4kWh and the total 10 kWh is generated (per day) while the PV array is harvesting you would be credited with 6kWh. which has been supplied to the grid.

With the gross method you would be credited with 10kWhs.

Standard induction meters may be used for the gross method. Two meters are required one export and the other import (kWhs). The load side of the export (PV array) meter is connected to the line sjde of the import meter. Note: The use of only one meter will only record the kWhs used from the grid. The output from the solar PV array will be connected to the load side of the installation MCB. There will be no record of kWhs supplied to the grid and so this method is not suitable for a feed in tariff.

The PEA/MEA should be able to advise on feed in tariffs and their metering requirements.

　

[Crossy]

Whilst what electau states is true, AFAIK there is no facility in Thailand for small (net consumer) installations to have such an arrangement. If electau knows of such please let us know where to find details.

In reality, if overall you generate less than you use your power bill will simply be smaller. If during the day you generate more than your current usage then your meter will spin backwards effectively storing your power in the grid for you to withdraw after dark, all fully automatically.

I've not come across any electrical legislation regarding small grid-tie systems so provided you take appropriate precautions (inverter with island protection and suitably rated breakers and isolators), Nike (just do it).

[electau]

There are standards relating to the installation of grid connected inverter systems.

There are IEC standards and the AS4777 series of documents and the method of connection is in accordance with this standard and with the requirements of the electricity distributor (supply authority).

Some of the requirements are that a switch is installed on or adjacent to the main switchboard to switch the incoming supply from the inverter, an isolation switch must be fitted adjacent to the inverter on the output side, ( this may be integral with the inverter) and the inverter must have an integral grid protection device (to prevent back feeding). There must also be a 2 pole switch to isolate the solar PV panels from the inverter.

An RCD must not be placed between the consumers mains and the solar supply.

The PEA/MEA would be the first point of contact for grid tied systems with a feed in tariff. It would appear that this is not available in Thailand at present, but that may change in the future.

The only method of connection at present ( subject to supply authority approval) is the use of the existing metering. The use of only one meter will only record the kWhs used from the grid. The output from the solar PV array will be connected to the load side of the installation MCB. There will be no record of kWhs supplied to the grid and so this method is not suitable for a feed in tariff.

It will reduce the amount you will be charged for on your electricity account for your kWh consumption.

　

Edited October 4, 2012 by electau

[Crossy]

Neither the IEC nor the AS standards are enforceable in Thailand. That said and as I've noted on many occasions the AS standards provide a good working document for Thai installations as the network and installation conditions are similar.

Interesting that AS regs absolutely forbid an RCD on the solar supply, the UK regs absolutely require one (subject to certain installation conditions).

[electau]

In the absence of any statutory requirements under the Thai Industrial Standards, IEC and AS4777, including AS3000 may be used as a guide only to a safe electrical installation. (There may be a guide under the US NEC documents)

Thailand is a country that has adopted IEC standards in certain instances when it suits them.

The reason that an RCD must not be placed between the solar inverter output and the incoming consumers mains is that it could inadvertently disconnect the grid supply from the inverter. (The inverter is permanently wired).

Otherwise, RCDs may be installed on final subcircuits.

Edited October 5, 2012 by electau