Eu Funds Isaan Language Program

[tcris52]

FYI.

Nice to see in the Northeast.

http://isaanrecord.com/2012/03/02/eu-funds-isaan-language-program/

[isanbirder]

This seems to be promoting the Lao dialect, which is used in Northern Isan, but which the people of Southern Isan don't speak; they speak Khmer or Soay (spelling?). I live in a Khmer-speaking village, where the young people don't like to speak Khmer because they think it's uncivilised. Nobody writes it, and it will be gone in a couple of generations. I suspect the same will happen to the Lao dialect, though that will take longer.

[diggledunc]

Sorry have I been missing something. Thai is never spoken in my village apart from when they speak to me. Bridging performance gaps what is this about an EU sponsored scheme which allows people great all expenses paid trips to Thailand perhaps.

Maybe they should sponsor the teaching of English. Where I live in the amphoe there is not one Thai teacher who is teaching the language who can speak English. Parents in the village are much more concerned about there children falling behind because they know that in the larger conurbations the children get better teaching. The children learn Isan in the schools as their first language then Thai comes into the curriculum at 7 years of age. Although schools try to encourage parents to speak to their children in Thai at home so that they can integrate better outside Isan they don't.

Would be very interested to hear what other people who live in a small 'Naknon nowhere' village think about this.

My local school closes at the drop of a hat for teaching. A week lost for Children's day practice, closed for 2 days because the school boss had a son going to be a monk temporarily, closed for local village sports events, closed for painting for two weeks one week after the term started, closed because one teacher was picking up an award and four others decided to go as well, closed for meetings at one days notice which are not alcohol free, and many more.

Help the children in Isan by all means but by better education standards and paying enough to get better teachers and stop the tea money payments.

[tcris52]

Welcome to rural Thailand.

I 2008, I visited a small Matayom in lower Maha Sarakham province. I met the English teacher and she could not understand a word I said and was not able to speak to me. It was lucky I had a translator with me or we would not have communicated at all.

When I got back to Khon Kaen, I attended a ThaiTESOL conference. I was at a seminar on rural Thai schools and mentioned my experience. The presenter said, "That should not surprise you. Most of the English teachers at the rural schools are PE teachers who are picked because they might be able to read a few words of English." Her function in teaching English seemed to be to put a CD into a 15-year-old PC (donated by Microsoft, according to the signs) and start the program going.

I teach at KKU and we spend a fair amount of time in the 4th year on job hunting, resumes, etc. I try to encourage my students to consider teaching at the rural schools for a while if they are unable to get a job (and that is likely with the economy the way it is today and them wanting jobs in tourism and the airlines). They won't make a lot of money, but they will have some good experience to go on their resumes. It beats the hell out of telling an employer you haven't done anything since you graduated two years ago. I'm probably wasting my breath, but hope springs eternal.

I taught a course at Roi-et a few months ago to PhD candidates in Education Administration. Most were higher up in the system, including principals and leaders at the area or provincial level. They understand the problem and would like to do something about it. Some are trying, but it's a difficult battle. It's very difficult to attract qualified teachers to rural schools.

As soon as you find an answer, let me know and I'll pass it on.

[elwood]

Thanks OP; regardless of the arguments about why bother, I thought it was an interesting link, and no more weird than preserving Welsh or Gaelic maybe?

[tcris52]

"Of the estimated 7,000 languages spoken in the world today, linguists say, nearly half are in danger of extinction and are likely to disappear in this century. In fact, they are now falling out of use at a rate of about one every two weeks."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/18cnd-language.html

[hansnl]

I live in KK, my wife comes from Ayuddhya, speaks no Isan, but understands some.

She thinks this might be a good idea, formalizing the Isan language, bringing the language out of the background, out of the negative image it has.

However, two things are important.

- In the schools Thai and Isan shoud be teached;

- The Isan language should always be written in Thai letters and should not be in Lao letters

The why is obvious, learning two languages is difficult enough, learning two scripts is much more difficult.

Gladly would like to receive comments

[rgs2001uk]

I live in KK, my wife comes from Ayuddhya, speaks no Isan, but understands some.

She thinks this might be a good idea, formalizing the Isan language, bringing the language out of the background, out of the negative image it has.

However, two things are important.

- In the schools Thai and Isan shoud be teached;

- The Isan language should always be written in Thai letters and should not be in Lao letters

The why is obvious, learning two languages is difficult enough, learning two scripts is much more difficult.

Gladly would like to receive comments

I live in KK, my wife comes from Ayuddhya, speaks no Isan, but understands some.

She thinks this might be a good idea, formalizing the Isan language, bringing the language out of the background, out of the negative image it has.

However, two things are important.

- In the schools Thai and Isan shoud be teached;

- The Isan language should always be written in Thai letters and should not be in Lao letters

The why is obvious, learning two languages is difficult enough, learning two scripts is much more difficult.

Gladly would like to receive comments

Thats why some people in Bkk earn 250 baht per day and others earn 250 baht per hour.

Dont see many Thais studying pasat Issan, the smarter ones are too busy studying Japanese or Manadarin.

Thats why some girls here in Bkk are earning 80k per month instead of 8k.

For trilingual speakers upwards of 100k is possible.

Now ask yourself, what would you like your children to speak?

[diggledunc]

I live in KK, my wife comes from Ayuddhya, speaks no Isan, but understands some.

She thinks this might be a good idea, formalizing the Isan language, bringing the language out of the background, out of the negative image it has.

However, two things are important.

- In the schools Thai and Isan shoud be teached;

- The Isan language should always be written in Thai letters and should not be in Lao letters

The why is obvious, learning two languages is difficult enough, learning two scripts is much more difficult.

Gladly would like to receive comments

I live in KK, my wife comes from Ayuddhya, speaks no Isan, but understands some.

She thinks this might be a good idea, formalizing the Isan language, bringing the language out of the background, out of the negative image it has.

However, two things are important.

- In the schools Thai and Isan shoud be teached;

- The Isan language should always be written in Thai letters and should not be in Lao letters

The why is obvious, learning two languages is difficult enough, learning two scripts is much more difficult.

Gladly would like to receive comments

Thats why some people in Bkk earn 250 baht per day and others earn 250 baht per hour.

Dont see many Thais studying pasat Issan, the smarter ones are too busy studying Japanese or Manadarin.

Thats why some girls here in Bkk are earning 80k per month instead of 8k.

For trilingual speakers upwards of 100k is possible.

Now ask yourself, what would you like your children to speak?

Excellent comment and sadly illustrates as well why so many girls from Isan end up entertaining foreigners in the bars in BKK. They don't even get the chance of a decent education never mind the options above however smart they are.

Answer - not Isan

[SantiSuk]

This seems to be promoting the Lao dialect, which is used in Northern Isan, but which the people of Southern Isan don't speak; they speak Khmer or Soay (spelling?). I live in a Khmer-speaking village, where the young people don't like to speak Khmer because they think it's uncivilised. Nobody writes it, and it will be gone in a couple of generations. I suspect the same will happen to the Lao dialect, though that will take longer.

Maybe in your part of Southern Isaan, Isanbirder (must be Buriram I would guess if you've got a high density of Khmer speakers). Over here in SiSaket province it is usually Lao, but some villages, mostly within 60k of the Cambodian border are Khmer-speaking. They don't call that 'speaking Isaan' either. In Ubon province it is mostly Lao. In both provinces if they talk about 'speaking Issaan' they mean Lao-derived dialect. Both Ubon and SiSaket I would place as being in Southern Isaan. Yes - Thais and Isaan-speakers (Lao) tend to look down on Khmers (but in a friendly jokey sort of way of they have friends who are Khmer-derived) and dislike Cambodia. They are not exactly that warm towards Laos either, which is strange sonce that is their racial heritage. I agree that with all school lessons being in Thai - and most soaps and pop culture - it's probably on a slippery slope to extinction.

Seems odd that the EU would waste its money on this - rather like the Russians sponsoring the preservation of Gaelic (not that they do that I hasten to add!)

[isanbirder]

This seems to be promoting the Lao dialect, which is used in Northern Isan, but which the people of Southern Isan don't speak; they speak Khmer or Soay (spelling?). I live in a Khmer-speaking village, where the young people don't like to speak Khmer because they think it's uncivilised. Nobody writes it, and it will be gone in a couple of generations. I suspect the same will happen to the Lao dialect, though that will take longer.

Maybe in your part of Southern Isaan, Isanbirder (must be Buriram I would guess if you've got a high density of Khmer speakers). Over here in SiSaket province it is usually Lao, but some villages, mostly within 60k of the Cambodian border are Khmer-speaking. They don't call that 'speaking Isaan' either. In Ubon province it is mostly Lao. In both provinces if they talk about 'speaking Issaan' they mean Lao-derived dialect. Both Ubon and SiSaket I would place as being in Southern Isaan. Yes - Thais and Isaan-speakers (Lao) tend to look down on Khmers (but in a friendly jokey sort of way of they have friends who are Khmer-derived) and dislike Cambodia. They are not exactly that warm towards Laos either, which is strange sonce that is their racial heritage. I agree that with all school lessons being in Thai - and most soaps and pop culture - it's probably on a slippery slope to extinction.

Seems odd that the EU would waste its money on this - rather like the Russians sponsoring the preservation of Gaelic (not that they do that I hasten to add!)

Indeed, Santisuk, I live in Buriram; much of Surin also has many Khmer speakers. There are supposed to be something like a million Khmer-speakers all told in Thailand. The Khmer they speak is heavily laced with Thai (one might say laced with Thai whisky).

I would like to see more effort placed on teaching English... with possible alternatives of Mandarin or Japanese. All three require a student to learn a new script, English being the easiest. I don't think this is a problem if they start young enough.

Of course, for sentimental reasons people do not like to see languages dying out (and my linguist friends hate it), but it's going to happen, and I don't think patch-up measures like the EU scheme are going to change this.

[ICMRP]

Dear all,

My name is John Draper and I am a Project Officer with this project (ICMRP). We are trying to reply to all issues of concern to the general public, so I will summarise the points made here to date and try to answer them:

1) Q) This seems to be promoting the Lao dialect, which is used in Northern Isan, but which the people of Southern Isan don't speak; they speak Khmer or Soay (spelling?).

A) That is correct. We are working with local Khon Kaen municipalities in this pilot study, so the Lao Isan dialect is the one we are focusing on.

2) Q... it will be gone in a couple of generations. I suspect the same will happen to the Lao dialect, though that will take longer.

A) Not necessarily. There are many examples of language maintenance and revitalization. For example, Welsh is slowly recovering, as is Irish. Basque and Catalan are also doing well in Spain. In the Philippines, the Cebu language is being maintained. Within Thailand, the Chong is doing well, and there is a pilot study with Yawi (Pattani Malay) in the South. In the North, Lanna (Kammuang) is relatively stable.

3) Q) what is this about an EU sponsored scheme which allows people great all expenses paid trips to Thailand perhaps.

A) The ICMRP budget contains no budget line for foreign travel. The only foreigner employed on the project is me, and I have been in Thailand as a teacher for 12 years.

4) Q) Bridging performance gaps

A) Yes. Research consistently show that a mother tongue first approach bridges performance gaps. This is basically because if you become literate in your mother tongue, you can transfer these literacy skills (meytalinguistic skills) to second and other languages. So, a Lao Isan child who has experience of writing a story in Lao Isan will be better able to write a story in Thai (and in English).

5) Q) Maybe they should sponsor the teaching of English.

A) We are. The project embraces the principle of Thai-Isan-English (or other foreign language).

6) Q) However, two things are important.

- In the schools Thai and Isan shoud be teached;

A) Yes, as noted above, this programme embraces multilingualism.

7) Q) The Isan language should always be written in Thai letters and should not be in Lao letters

A) The Isan language is already written in karaoke Thai for mor lam songs. The main problem here is psychological. The user is having to use another (superior in terms of prestige) language for literacy purposes and is constantly reminded of the fact. The result can be a kind of mental 'cognitive dissonance'. That is why we are using Tai Noi, which is basically pre-revolutionary Lao.

8) Q) The why is obvious, learning two languages is difficult enough, learning two scripts is much more difficult.

A) The majority of Isan non-religious literature was written in Tai Noi, basically prerevolutionary Lao, which resembles Thai to about 70% similarity. However, it is 95% similar to modern Lao. Isan children will have to learn another ASEAN language come 2015, and Laotian seems the obvious choice. Learning Isan using Tai Noi in Prathom and Laotian in Mattayom could be one way to deal with this additional teaching and learning load in a way that also provides educational benefits. My wife picked up Tai Noi in about two weeks. It is simpler than modern Thai because it does not use tonal markers ('mai et' etc.)

9) Q) Now ask yourself, what would you like your children to speak?

As a father of 3 Lao Isan children, I would like them to speak and write both Lao Isan and modern Lao, as well as Thai and English. Spoken Isan, Thai and English will come from from the fact they spend their holidays in a Lao Isan village, where they play in Lao Isan; their mother speaks Thai to them, and I speak English to them. Written Isan will come from their mother tongue at school, while Lao will come from their second ASEAN language at school and from contacts my wife has with Laotians. I would be very happy to see my children when they grow up engaged in cross-boundary trade with Lao PDR; Thais are the largest investors in businesses in Lao PDR. However, I would agree that Mandarin would be a good choice as a foreign language, but it's up to them. For my children to be able to stand up against a Central Thai and to be proud of their own Isan culture and language, I believe they need to be literate in Isan. Many Central Thais and even young Isan people don't believe they had any culture or literature of note until they were conquered by Thailand. It makes quite a difference to a child to know that they have a culture and literature that they can be proud of. Weaning people off dependence on a 'hi so' language for their culture can have a significant effect - as proven by Shakespeare. The seventeenth centure of English literature that resulted is known as a period of English literary renaissance.

10) Q) Excellent comment and sadly illustrates as well why so many girls from Isan end up entertaining foreigners in the bars in BKK. They don't even get the chance of a decent education never mind the options above however smart they are. Answer - not Isan.

A) Again, the 'not Isan' option results in a lower class person (who will always be judged as such by Central Thais no matter how much they bleach their skin and shave their cheekbones using surgery) who has no literature or culture or history that they can be proud of, a particular problem in a 'high face' society. Research studies (e.g., Nadine Dutcher's World Bank study; also see the writings of Tove Skutnabb -) generally find that mother tongue education programmes instil greater self respect and external respect (prestige) on the users. Incorporation of the mother tongue in the education system validates the identity of the minority, resulting in lower drop out rates and higher academic results - in addition to the metalinguistic effects noted above. In this case, the only answer is Isan.

11) Q) I agree that with all school lessons being in Thai - and most soaps and pop culture - it's probably on a slippery slope to extinction.

A) Agreed. Unless something is done, by 2100, Lao Isan, together with Khmer, Pu Thai and Korat will probably be the only 4 Isan languages left out of the current approximate number of 17.

12) Q) Seems odd that the EU would waste its money on this - rather like the Russians sponsoring the preservation of Gaelic (not that they do that I hasten to add!)

A) I'm not employed by the EU, so this is a tricky one. In principle, I think the EU believe in financial decoupling from central government and ''local democracy', as well as a plurality of languages. Interestingly, the EU's motto is 'United in diversity'. However, they may be doing it to try to promote stability in Thailand or the education of Isan people, both of which I think would benefit Thailand as recently stability has been elusive throughout Thailand and there are 19 million Isan (though only 11-15 million Lao Isan). For some time the Asia Foundation (US State Dept. backed NGO) has been working on a similar pilot study in the Deep South, together with Mahidol University and Prince of Songhkla University. Educational benefits have been proven in terms of both attendance (less truancy) and results (both in Yawi and Thai). At a higher level, even before domino theory was developed, Thailand has always been seen as a 'sensitive' and somewhat mysterious country to the West. Speaking personally, the EU may therefore be trying to get political/economic leverage, too. I'm not sure of that, but given the results of 20th century US and USSR empire building, I view any attempts to interfere with local sovereignty as generally a bad idea. However, these kind of multilingualism developments are in line with the policy of both Abhisit and Yongluck's cabinets as well as with most Thai universities with language research departments like Mahidol University's Institute for Asian Languages, together with the Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn Anthropology Institute, and the Royal Institute. International conferences in Thailand have been embracing multilingualim in principle for about five years now, and it can be seen as stemming from the 1997 Constitution's embrace of pahulak (diversity or plurality) instead of ekkalak (unity, or assimilation) - and the more recent Constitution is also in the same vein on this issue. Moreover, UNESCO, UNICEF, SEAMEO, Save the Children, Oxfam, the US Summer Institute of Linguistics and other international players have been behind mother tongue education first, or at least in a dual language form, for over 50 years for some of them.

I have tried my best to answer your questions. If you are still not satisfied, or if you have any other questions, please ask.

Regards,

John Draper

Project Officer,

ICMRP

[isanbirder]

Thank you, John, for a detailed answer to many of our comments.

I am a retired English teacher, and have worked in Hong Kong and Chiangmai with students to whom English was a second if not a third language.

I am also an ornithologist, and have been involved in various projects of bird conservation. This is not as irrelevant as it sounds. Preserving an endangered species by artificial means may work for a short time (my avatar, the Spoon-billed Stint, is an example of a species which is being actively 'conserved'), but the gene bank is very limited, and I have doubts whether it will work in the long term. I think the same applies with minority languages. As a student of language, I regret this, but I am not optimistic that it can be avoided. You may end up with artificially preserved, or reconstituted, languages like Cornish, but I question whether this is worth while.

[barrybankruad]

I'm cynical I know but I consider this project to be a complete and utter waste of time and European taxpayers money.

[rgs2001uk]

I'm cynical I know but I consider this project to be a complete and utter waste of time and European taxpayers money.

Agree, this smacks of nothing more than cultural snobbery.

Has anyone ever thought of asking either the children or the parents if they wish to learn a dying language?

I remember a few years ago some French group offering to teach French to the Cambodians.

The official reply went along the lines of, our people are (physically) handicapped enough from war injuries, please dont handicap them more by teaching them French.

Irrespective of whether they learn this language, they will benefit more from learning either English, Japanese or Chinese.

So why waste their time learning it?

"the EU's motto is 'United in diversity'."

Dont even get me started on this white elephant.

[ICMRP]

Dear Isanbirder, barrybankruad and rgs2001uk,

I will try to answer your comments below:

1) Q) Is the gene bank big enough?

A) The gene bank for speakers of Lao Isan is very large. It is estimated at 11-15 million.

2) Q) Will Isan literacy be artificial?

A) Yes, communicative 'modern' Isan will be artificial. However, will Isan students in secondary school studying Laotian epics like Pa Lak Pa Lam or Sinsai be studying an artificial language? No, they will not. They will be studying a 'species' that is plentiful in another region but is being reintroduced in a neighboring region with a similar background or culture. From the arguments above, we believe that this is worthwhile.

3) Q) I'm cynical I know but I consider this project to be a complete and utter waste of time... and European taxpayers money.

A) You are absolutely right that this smacks of idealism. However, see my response to question 8 below.

4) Q) I'm cynical I know but I consider this project to be a complete and utter waste of...European taxpayers money.

A) You have a valid concern. For example, the Brits are not too happy on this expansion of EU spheres of influence, which they view as overstepping their own spheres of influence. I have outlined reasons for EU involvement from an EU and personal perspective above. If these are not convincing and you are an EU citizen, please contact your MEP to make a formal complaint. Please cite European Union Grant EuropeAid/131209/C/ACT/TH. That should see you right.

5) Q) Agree, this smacks of nothing more than cultural snobbery

A) I would appreciate it if you clarify this. I'm not sure how promoting one of the worst (= least appreciated) cultural identities in Thailand is cultural snobbery. Wouldn't promoting Central Thai be cultural snobbery? Please set me right.

6) Q) Has anyone ever thought of asking either the children or the parents if they wish to learn a dying language?

A) Yes, we have, we have polled 900 people, in three studies composed of a combination of university students and semi-rural Isan people. c. 86% approved the reintroduction of Isan in the formal education system and another c. 86% the use of multilingual signage. In addition, we are instituting surveying of an additional 4,000 people, teacher, parents, officials etc and are requiring a supermajority of 66% before this is deployed. Finally, this is a major issue for parents and municipalities alike. The mayors of the municipalities involved would be committing political suicide if the people did not want it. They're pretty committed, which suggests to me they know the pulse of their constituents.

7) Q) Irrespective of whether they learn this language, they will benefit more from learning either English, Japanese or Chinese.

So why waste their time learning it?

A) I'm going to have to mainly direct you to the responses above, which are mainly along the lines that learning literacy in your mother tongue helps you learn English, Japanese and Chinese. Basically, they can be additive rather than subtractive. I am totally with you in terms of being in favour of better English, but this is not mutually exclusive with teaching the mother tongue. I have a forthcoming article in the Asian EFL Journal (which is free; it is coming out in December) and in the TESOL Quarterly (sorry, not free) arguing for better standards in teaching English in Northeast Thailand in some detail. In the case of Japanese, you give me 10,000 qualified Japanese teachers in Isan and we'll agree to introduce Japanese. I'm sorry if I sound flippant, but we have serious enough problems teaching Thai here.

8) Q) "the EU's motto is 'United in diversity'." Don't even get me started on this white elephant.

A) I think I understand what you mean. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to have to speak personally here. Is the EU motto, or even model, grounded in reality or is it just idealism? The EU chose this motto after two world wars and nearly a third had torn it apart and redrawn its lines multiple times. The idea of language rights actually only appeared in the 19th century, incorporated into peace treaties designed to avoid wars breaking out over language and minority issues. Bilateral treaties didn't succeed as blocs formed. Can any supranational organization claim to be a 'cure' to such issues as the existence of minorities? The Roman Empire's cure was a single, supranational identity, a kind of globalism. However, minority existences could still exist. Thus, Saul of Tarsus was both a Jew and a Roman citizen. Mind you, we all know what happened to the Roman Empire. What if we reject all forms of supranationalism and everyone embraces libertarianism or syndico-anarchism? The common complaint is that this works fine until one of your neighbours is an expansionist syndico-anarchist with less morals and the idea that slavery is a fine thing. What about considering biological issues? Are we biologically idealistic or pessimistic? The Greeks were all for a glorious early death in order to escape life's woes, with only 'delusive hope' left in Pandora's box. However, the Romans were a bit more optimistic and inspired to human idealism, and anthropologists and biologists generally agree that we, as a species, are quite idealistic at the moment - more glass half full. Otherwise, we'd all be dead before the age of 30. Would it be a good idea to be idealistic in a pragmatic kind of way right now? Maybe. The Israelis are pessimistically arguing for a first strike on Iran, but the US is officially stating that that would be the fastest way to an Iranian bomb. Is that idealism? Or do pragmatism and idealism somewhere coincide at the level of international agreements? I hope so, or the 21st century is going to be a serious mess. I would rather be united in diversity rather than disunited in ideological competition. That may have been fine as a paradigm before the Manhattan Project, but I don't want to see another world war or a perpetual, never-ending war on terror. Sooner or later, asymmetric warfare will start accounting for megadeaths. Finally, in case you wonder if I have all day to muse on philosophy, we're just kicking this project off and haven't even transferred the budgets, and the planning is all OK for the moment, so I have some time. Plus, I am committed to trying to engage with the Thai, Isan and English speaking public in Thailand about this programme.

Again, I hope I have succeeded in answering some of your issues, or at least in portraying a point of view that you can accept has its own validity.

Sincerely,

John Draper,

Project Officer,

ICMRP

[isanbirder]

Just an answer on my little bit, John.

The viability of a language (or a species, to continue my analogy) is not just a question of numbers. There is the political aspect (do people regard it as their main language, does it secure jobs etc). There is the media aspect, if I can call it that; are there TV, books, newspapers, even pop songs in it? There is the habitat aspect; is the climate of literacy suitable for it?

As a classicist, I love your reference to the Roman Empire. It seems to support my viewpoint. Latin was the language in which things got done (also Greek, but that was largely cultural snobbery). Which language spoken in the Roman empire survived ALL the rest? Latin. Why, on one mad escapade I've even spoken it myself! What happened to Aramaic (which had a good reason to survive in that Christianity was first taught in Aramaic), the Celtic languages, Etruscan, Phoenician, and so on? They died out.

Which of the minority languages will survive? Those which have a strong culture of their own to support them; of the minority languages in Thailand, I would cite Akha and Hmong in particular (and their numbers are far below those you cite). I cannot see much future for Thai-Khmer... and I cannot really see a future for what you call Isaan and I call Lao.

But I think there is one very important point which you have side-stepped; the impetus for the survival of a language must come from within the language speakers themselves, and cannot be imposed from without.

[rgs2001uk]

Just an answer on my little bit, John.

The viability of a language (or a species, to continue my analogy) is not just a question of numbers. There is the political aspect (do people regard it as their main language, does it secure jobs etc). There is the media aspect, if I can call it that; are there TV, books, newspapers, even pop songs in it? There is the habitat aspect; is the climate of literacy suitable for it?

As a classicist, I love your reference to the Roman Empire. It seems to support my viewpoint. Latin was the language in which things got done (also Greek, but that was largely cultural snobbery). Which language spoken in the Roman empire survived ALL the rest? Latin. Why, on one mad escapade I've even spoken it myself! What happened to Aramaic (which had a good reason to survive in that Christianity was first taught in Aramaic), the Celtic languages, Etruscan, Phoenician, and so on? They died out.

Which of the minority languages will survive? Those which have a strong culture of their own to support them; of the minority languages in Thailand, I would cite Akha and Hmong in particular (and their numbers are far below those you cite). I cannot see much future for Thai-Khmer... and I cannot really see a future for what you call Isaan and I call Lao.

But I think there is one very important point which you have side-stepped; the impetus for the survival of a language must come from within the language speakers themselves, and cannot be imposed from without.

"But I think there is one very important point which you have side-stepped; the impetus for the survival of a language must come from within the language speakers themselves, and cannot be imposed from without."

Nail on head, I would wager good money this isnt something thats being driven from a grass roots level.

We are all aware of the history of the region, so no need for debate, the only thing I would debate is the Thai version of history, and the rewriting of it to suit whatever internal politics are taking place within Thailand. Preah Vihear springs to mind.

Instead of asking the question, is Issan part of Thailand, why not phrase it another way, is Thailand part of Issan?

I also ask myself is this being done for linguistic or altruitsic reasons?

"2) Q) Will Isan literacy be artificial?

A) Yes, communicative 'modern' Isan will be artificial. However, will Isan students in secondary school studying Laotian epics like Pa Lak Pa Lam or Sinsai be studying an artificial language? No, they will not. They will be studying a 'species' that is plentiful in another region but is being reintroduced in a neighboring region with a similar background or culture. From the arguments above, we believe that this is worthwhile."

So now we are teaching an artificial language.

For the time being Issan speaking Thais are able to communicate with Issan speaking non Thais, lets project 20 years down the road when they are unable to communicate.

Somhai on the building site gets paid the same as his non Thai workmates for the simple reason they both have the same set of skills.

What happens when Somcahi is unable to communicate with either his workmates or his Thai speaking Thai foreman?

Studying Laotian epics, please spare me, most Thais dont even study Thai epics, a diet of Lakorn, and mind numbing game shows, Master Key anyone.

Even LiKay is dying out.

Time spent studying subjects as basic as geometry or arithmetic would be doing these people a greater service.

We are talking about people who are unable to convert a fraction to a decimal to a percentage.

How many times have you been in a mom n pop store where they cant add two or three numbers in their head, reach for the calculator every time.

The literacy levels are something else swept under the carpet, jeez if we bloody farang can take the time to be literate in less than a year, what excuses does the Thai education system have.

"5) Q) Agree, this smacks of nothing more than cultural snobbery

A) I would appreciate it if you clarify this. I'm not sure how promoting one of the worst (= least appreciated) cultural identities in Thailand is cultural snobbery. Wouldn't promoting Central Thai be cultural snobbery? Please set me right.'

Have already answered before, see my reference to the history of the region.

There is nothing wrong with people holding on to their cultural roots, if thats what they wish and its not to their detriment.

See previous answer ref work opportunities.

However when its nothing more than an exercise in self indulgence on the part of some who think they know whats best for these people, I would urge those who think they know best to go and spend some time with these people and see how they live, see the abject poverty and poor (non intended pun) choices these people have.

How many have have spent a night on a building site, or spent the night in some tin shack?

I spend a fair amount of time in Issan and have many friends from the area, some of the stories would break your heart, and I am not talking bar girl sick buffalo stories.

Some poor guy loses both his legs in a workplace related accident and is palmed off with 100,000 baht.

His mrs builds a shack for 50k and buys a motorcycle for 40k leaving 10k to fit out the shack.

This poor guy will never work again, his mrs slaves away in some paddy field for 150 baht per day.

For many these people are nothing more than a source of cheap labour, its easy to see how the Red shirts are so popular. I wont even get into that politcal discussion.

I am sure your aims are noble, but whose interests do they serve.

[barrybankruad]

So along comes a farang 'Ajarn" and asks the locals whether thy would like to improve their so called 'native' language. Are they likely to decline? I live in a village where some of the elderlycan hardly speak Thai, only their native Khmen. I listen to the parents talking to their young kids, they ALWAYS speak to them in Thai here. I listen to the older kids, the youth, vary rarely do I hear them speaking in Khmen, only Thai. Khmen/Lao/Issan music is popularhowever.

Within a couple of decades these so called 'native' languages with have disappeared completely. The youngsters today MUST be taught to speak ENGLISH!! PROPERLY!! Forget about Mandarin/Japanese etc. the dominant world language at the moment is English! Forget these pie in the sky projects, all they do is to employ so called 'teachers' to no avail. Get on with teaching English, give these poor Isaan kids a better chance in life.

[ICMRP]

I am having problems posting, but please see the attached txt file. It's guaranteed virus free.

Regards,

John Draper

Project Officer

ICMRP

ICMRP Response.txt

[ICMRP]

The Asia Foundation research study I mentioned in the text file above is called the 2010 National Survey of the Thai Electorate - Exploring National Consensus and Color Polarization. It is almost certainly available from their BKK website. I have my doubts about any survey done in Thailand, but it's pretty detailed.

Regards,

John Draper

Project Officer

ICMRP

[hansnl]

Mr Draper\

Most of the reactors are probably "farang"

I asked my wife, my children, what might be the reaction thay would like to ventilate.

Well, I will try to translate the heaps of words.

- Will the Isan language disappear.

No way, more and more young people in KK speak Isan on a daily basis.

- The Lao letters are understandable and readable for my wife and children.

However, the reason my wife thought the Thai "abc" should be used for Isan is to ease the learning AND politics.

- If a girl or boy is fluent in Isan and Thai why should there be any restriction or hindrance in finding a job, even in BKK

Mostly it is the skin coulour AND the accent plus the "knowing of" that decides getting a job.

- English is indeed the language of trade, not Chinese, not Japanese.

The Thai/Isan (or Lao) and English combination might work out for the best.

The fad of learning Chinese or Japanese means that the eventual candidate can only work for firms from those countries.

Chinese and Japanese students learn English.......

My wife is 100% Thai, rather dark skinned, the three children are very mixed.

One is nearly 100% the Thai ideal

Two is looking very much farang, but with a darker skin and blueish eyes

Three looks typical Thai but taller and light skinned.

My wife does not speak Isan, understand most, can read the Lao script.

The children speak Thai, Isan, English, number 1 also speaks Dutch and nr 2 also speaks German.

Hell of a combination.

But I am rather certain Isan is here to stay.

There are, nowadays, very proud young Isan people.

My thoughts about this project?

Local languageswill mostly survive and return.

See the Flemish in the north of France, Frisian in the North of The Netherlands and Germany, the revival of the various british languages...

Indeed, many centralised governments try to subdue or actively combat "accents" or "dialects" or languages, and very many times they succeed.

But lately there seem to be a reversal.

Many "local" languages will still disappear, but if there are enough speakers, that language will survive, and hopefully grow.

Succes

Hans Slobbe