Transsexual Thai Air Hostesses: Gimmick Or Equality?

[cowslip]

Mr arrow how little you seem to know about nature!....and being a sentient being come to that.

Edited March 12, 2012 by cowslip

[alexakap]

1. Show your proof about your genes statement.
   
2. Show how in nature bulls relinquish their johnsons and give milk.
   

What you believe has no basis in fact without proof

Go to school. I provide NO free education - I better sleep.

Some scientists - you do believe in science don't you, or are you a creationist/intelligent design mouth-breather? estimate that millions of human babies are born with “ambiguous genitalia”, AKA “intersexuality.”

...and we, ppl, just let them to exist (where in da real life they will fail in one generation). More than that - we, ppl, are constantly chanting "to be tolerate".....

Can I remind Spartans here? They were strong. And they got balls of steel (try to search something comparable among Thais...??)

It's their body, who are you to judge

I am a part of society where THEY exist. The very same member of the mankind.

May I express my opinion about their existence? Who are they to shut me up? Or who are you trying to do the same?

can only define themselves and the world around them in terms of their genitals

You must have genitals at least. They are not. What a pity - they can't even turn the word on'em...

Edited March 12, 2012 by alexakap

[oops]

So.......do you think they will hang some balls at the back of the plane now? like they do on the trucks.....it would look more appropriate then does on trucks....

[TexasRanger]

Of course it is a gimmick. What does the attendants i.d. card and passport state? They are male of course. So, males dressing up as girls and being hired as flight attendants is tolerated here because they look like women, what next, some big Russian guy wearing a dress serving you on Aeroflot? Nothing against them but this doesn't help Thailands reputation, it's all we ever hear, hooker this, ladyboy that, ping pong balls the other.

[oops]

Oh come on, how about some photos?

Does the company have promo shots?

BTW The funniest comment I ever saw on this subject was " where there's an apple there's usuall a banana".

Good point....so maybe we should mount apples at the back side of the plane insted of balls...?

[khaowong1]

Personally, I have no problem with it at all and think it should be supported. BUT, unfortunately I doubt its a good marketing ploy.

There are way too many Western men who dislike gays and/or trans-sexuals. The Western world is (generally) far less tolerant than Thailand.

Way, way less tolerent. I have friends in the US who would ask to be transferred at the next stop if the found out the stewardess waiting on them was a trans-sexual. They barely put up with the gay stewards. Barely.

And to keep on topic, gimmick, Thai's are not all that tolerent either.

Edited March 12, 2012 by khaowong1

[animatic]

I've been witness to young boys being raised as girls from a young age by their grandparents. How many of these flight attendants did not have a choice. You see a gatoeuy is able to receive a sinsot to the grandparents where a Thai man will not. If it was their choice, so be it, but many times it is not and people should be aware of this.

Learned response as opposed to genetics.

The parents grandparents are just bowing to the acted out wishes of the child,

rather than forcing them to conform to gener stereotypes.

I have yet to hear of any Grandparents forcing a boy to become a katoey.

Absolutely not, dressed as a girl and was only given girl toys and told to sit like a nice little girl. At eleven I was shown "Fashion" photos of him in full make-up. He has never been treated as a male from birth. This was not by choice and the whole freaking family has no problems with this. My head is about to explode from my conservative upbringing but hey tit and all that but certainly was not his choice. I believe the choice was made for him and that his grandparents who believe financially he would be able to support himself as a lovely little missus. He even is thin and very much wants to watch his figure. Trips me out mak mak. If he was adolescent and his tendencies were apparent and this was his choice, no problem but after all the ramifications of his decisions were pointed out, not to try to change his mind but to wake him up to the realities and opportunities he would be missing. Would probably schedule a visit with the psychologist before the dress shop as well.

FYI that's not a picture of me in my avatar. (Not that there is anything wrong with that).

So we wouldn't be surprised he's cuter than his sisters,

but they are destined for Pattaya or Posidon when daddy needs more dosh.

[alexakap]

So.......do you think they will hang some balls at the back of the plane now? like they do on the trucks.....it would look more appropriate then does on trucks....

I prefer if they keep'em on their original place. And use when need....not dress a boys as a girls, not flee from the areas of personal responcibilities, and not looking for a job with "katoey's attitude"...even as an air hostess blahblahblah.... Hope you get what I meant.

A male, once born - must be a Man, not something...mmm...different.

That's all I wanna say here.

[bigbamboo]

Oh come on, how about some photos?

Does the company have promo shots?

BTW The funniest comment I ever saw on this subject was " where there's an apple there's usuall a banana".

But no peach.

[oops]

Of course it is a gimmick. What does the attendants i.d. card and passport state? They are male of course. So, males dressing up as girls and being hired as flight attendants is tolerated here because they look like women, what next, some big Russian guy wearing a dress serving you on Aeroflot? Nothing against them but this doesn't help Thailands reputation, it's all we ever hear, hooker this, ladyboy that, ping pong balls the other.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me laugh. Who cares....this is one thing that Thailand has over most countries mai pin rai. It is stupid for us to worry if someone is gay or a transexual. This only seems to bother people with hidden phobia's of being that way themselves. Their passport should read....Trans gender. That's it. Should we not give passports to people with downsidrom just because they are different from us or because we don't understand why they are like they are. Should we give we put on your passport....sex tourist...? I mean I don't know you tell me.

One last thing....it isn't the ladyboys or this Airline that has ruined Thailands reputation....the powers at hand do a good job of this themselves....And if a Russian guy wants to serve drinks in a TooToo that is totally up to em .....actually I would prefer a Thai Ladyboy to the lader.

I in good fun.....take care man..... hope you just have fun in life and stop worring about gay people and those who are different from us.

[robanywhere]

"Would you like some nuts, sir?"

"Not from you I don't..."

reminds me of the Ace Ventura line...

Attendant (Lisping): Peanuts? Ace Ventura: [looks down] Yes, I have one right here. It's bulky, but I consider it carry-on.

[OzMick]

With her crisp uniform, immaculate makeup and hair swept up, Mew looks like any other air hostess, but she's one of a handful of Thai transsexuals blazing a trail in the skies.

"He", not "she". One can change the looking, but can't change his blood, the genes etc....

Ppl trying to play Gods again. Will fail again...

Genes can play tricks on the body. Its proven that person can be born in the wrong gendered body and be totally at odds with their sex. A person who truly believes they were born in the wrong sex, is, imo, the sex they chose to be, even before surgery. Those who complete a full transgender, are, imo, totally the sex they were meant to be and should be treated as such. I dont believe in "Gods", i believe nature sometimes mixes things up in many ways from time to time, including a persons gender. Nature is not infallible.

Regardless, has nothing to do with her ability to be good at her job or not. So what if she used to be "technically" male.

1. Show your proof about your genes statement.
   
2. Show how in nature bulls relinquish their johnsons and give milk.
   

What you believe has no basis in fact without proof and in this case what you believe is about as useful as reverse on a motorcycle.

Off topic - but reverse gear on bikes is not so rare or useless, especially in side car or trike mode. Ural and Goldwing have today, older Harleys had a choice of 4fwd or 3 and reverse.

[TexasRanger]

Of course it is a gimmick. What does the attendants i.d. card and passport state? They are male of course. So, males dressing up as girls and being hired as flight attendants is tolerated here because they look like women, what next, some big Russian guy wearing a dress serving you on Aeroflot? Nothing against them but this doesn't help Thailands reputation, it's all we ever hear, hooker this, ladyboy that, ping pong balls the other.

This only seems to bother people with hidden phobia's of being that way themselves.

What do you base that assumption on?

[arrowsdawdle]

Of course it is a gimmick. What does the attendants i.d. card and passport state? They are male of course. So, males dressing up as girls and being hired as flight attendants is tolerated here because they look like women, what next, some big Russian guy wearing a dress serving you on Aeroflot? Nothing against them but this doesn't help Thailands reputation, it's all we ever hear, hooker this, ladyboy that, ping pong balls the other.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me laugh. Who cares....this is one thing that Thailand has over most countries mai pin rai. It is stupid for us to worry if someone is gay or a transexual. This only seems to bother people with hidden phobia's of being that way themselves. Their passport should read....Trans gender. That's it. Should we not give passports to people with downsidrom just because they are different from us or because we don't understand why they are like they are. Should we give we put on your passport....sex tourist...? I mean I don't know you tell me.

One last thing....it isn't the ladyboys or this Airline that has ruined Thailands reputation....the powers at hand do a good job of this themselves....And if a Russian guy wants to serve drinks in a TooToo that is totally up to em .....actually I would prefer a Thai Ladyboy to the lader.

I in good fun.....take care man..... hope you just have fun in life and stop worring about gay people and those who are different from us.

Interesting sickness comparison you made.

Edited March 12, 2012 by arrowsdawdle

[Thai at Heart]

I've been witness to young boys being raised as girls from a young age by their grandparents. How many of these flight attendants did not have a choice. You see a gatoeuy is able to receive a sinsot to the grandparents where a Thai man will not. If it was their choice, so be it, but many times it is not and people should be aware of this.

Learned response as opposed to genetics.

The parents grandparents are just bowing to the acted out wishes of the child,

rather than forcing them to conform to gener stereotypes.

I have yet to hear of any Grandparents forcing a boy to become a katoey.

Absolutely not, dressed as a girl and was only given girl toys and told to sit like a nice little girl. At eleven I was shown "Fashion" photos of him in full make-up. He has never been treated as a male from birth. This was not by choice and the whole freaking family has no problems with this. My head is about to explode from my conservative upbringing but hey tit and all that but certainly was not his choice. I believe the choice was made for him and that his grandparents who believe financially he would be able to support himself as a lovely little missus. He even is thin and very much wants to watch his figure. Trips me out mak mak. If he was adolescent and his tendencies were apparent and this was his choice, no problem but after all the ramifications of his decisions were pointed out, not to try to change his mind but to wake him up to the realities and opportunities he would be missing. Would probably schedule a visit with the psychologist before the dress shop as well.

FYI that's not a picture of me in my avatar. (Not that there is anything wrong with that).

I have to admit, I have seen something similar in the village with a distant nephew of mine no older than 7 years old several years back.

[oops]

Genes can play tricks on the body.

He was born as a man, and he will live with that, and die with that - regardless his "cut-offs" and wearing girlie things. That's it.

A simple, purest haraam (حرام).

i believe nature sometimes mixes things

And I believe in human's idiocity, short-thinking and selfish.

Doing such of things as "transfer yourself" has nothing to do with nature, it is just a common excuse (I've read'em a thousand times).

You seem to be a very intellegant person with the exception of your veiws on people who are different. What do you think of people with Down Syndrome ? should we let them die because the can't take care of themselves. Gay people are in every country which tells you that it is more than likely a genetic error than anything else and has been going on since the beginning time.

I know I have a problem with butches...because they seem to get better looking girlfriends than I do....

[oops]

Of course it is a gimmick. What does the attendants i.d. card and passport state? They are male of course. So, males dressing up as girls and being hired as flight attendants is tolerated here because they look like women, what next, some big Russian guy wearing a dress serving you on Aeroflot? Nothing against them but this doesn't help Thailands reputation, it's all we ever hear, hooker this, ladyboy that, ping pong balls the other.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me laugh. Who cares....this is one thing that Thailand has over most countries mai pin rai. It is stupid for us to worry if someone is gay or a transexual. This only seems to bother people with hidden phobia's of being that way themselves. Their passport should read....Trans gender. That's it. Should we not give passports to people with downsidrom just because they are different from us or because we don't understand why they are like they are. Should we give we put on your passport....sex tourist...? I mean I don't know you tell me.

One last thing....it isn't the ladyboys or this Airline that has ruined Thailands reputation....the powers at hand do a good job of this themselves....And if a Russian guy wants to serve drinks in a TooToo that is totally up to em .....actually I would prefer a Thai Ladyboy to the lader.

I in good fun.....take care man..... hope you just have fun in life and stop worring about gay people and those who are different from us.

Interesting sickness comparison you made.

Let me guess your a priest right?

[oops]

So this is turning into a general GLBT bashing thread. How predictable. The intolerance and ignorance is stunning.

Would you tell me even one reason - why must I tolerate their idea more than my own?

Will you tolerate if your beloved growing son says one day "Dad, I want my balls cut out, and I wanna huge silicone tits!"

Will you say "Ok son, lets do that tomorrow morning then!"?

Just yes or no? No bashes here.

WOW....your very serious about this.....HMMMMMMMM!

Maybe your idea is lacking in education and about peoples rights.....it sounds like you want rights just for you. That to me is ignorance in itself and partly why places like the Middle East and some Asian countries are struggling.....it's called FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN !

[oops]

Personally, I have no problem with it at all and think it should be supported. BUT, unfortunately I doubt its a good marketing ploy.

There are way too many Western men who dislike gays and/or trans-sexuals. The Western world is (generally) far less tolerant than Thailand.

This airline only flies to Asian locations at the moment. They attract mostly curiosity with Asians, just look at all the Chinese tour buses in front of the various transgender cabaret shows, so I don't think it will be a problem. This could be a good business decision.

They could have some nasty incidents flying to certain countries though

What about layovers? Airlines typically room crew together. Where do you put such confusiion? Whose rights take precedence? What about public restrooms? The civilized world has laws.

Who ever said the civilized world was correct........about anything. We have made many mistakes as civilized people and we keep making them so to become hard line about something we don't understand is pure stupidity we can see that throughout history.. The other day American Airlines had a female flight attendent go nuts on a plane.... Have you ever seen the flight attendents in America....they can't fire them because of there age......then to hear about this lady.......this is the first time I have ever heard that they cannot fire someone because they have mental problems....<deleted> What kind of law is that.....is this the level the level of intellegance that the Western worlds consider conducive to a safe enviroment for everyone. What about the rights of 300 ppl on the plane that are supposed to be entrusting this lady's wisdom.....I liked when they said....everything is ok.....she just forgot to take her medicine. This is not good judgement by the Western policy which tells you that they don't know or understand everything.....and this is just one example....out millions. Hitstory tells us that we are habitual F*(% UP's and we seem to find the weakest people to take it out on.

[TexasRanger]

Deep breaths......... Count to ten.

[animatic]

Genes can play tricks on the body.

He was born as a man, and he will live with that, and die with that - regardless his "cut-offs" and wearing girlie things. That's it.

A simple, purest haraam (حرام).

i believe nature sometimes mixes things

And I believe in human's idiocity, short-thinking and selfish.

Doing such of things as "transfer yourself" has nothing to do with nature, it is just a common excuse (I've read'em a thousand times).

You seem to be a very intellegant person with the exception of your veiws on people who are different. What do you think of people with Down Syndrome ? should we let them die because the can't take care of themselves. Gay people are in every country which tells you that it is more than likely a genetic error than anything else and has been going on since the beginning time.

I know I have a problem with butches...because they seem to get better looking girlfriends than I do....

Yes exactly.

It is a naturally occurring genetic variation that runs counter to classical tribal societies needs to keep numbers up, as workers and defenders in case another tribe attacks.

It has been seen back then that;

a ) gays don't typically reproduce (reducing numbers)

b ) gays aren't brought up as warriors (reducing defenders)

c ) tribal survival in olden days was dependent on keeping numbers of defenders up

So there have been age old taboos against homosexuality,

that are only now, in modern times are less necessary.

Where TOO MANY births have inverted the trend of survival through numbers,

and thus being homosexual reduces births, and now gives better societal use of resources.

Not saying that all will turn gay of the taboo disappears, an absurd fear driven delusion,

only the likely statistically normal percentage that would trend that way but openly.

Point being;

Societal taboo modification is not keeping pace with societal needs and

medical capabilities and understanding. Taboos are driven into cultures

as deep seated fears of survival being threatened, and threatening the

classical defensive structures of cultures.

Most people don't deal with the questions until it is 'shoved in their face'

and then have the old knee-jerk in-graned response. No longer needed

by the culture, but a response is so in-grained, it can't help but make you

'feel better for standing up for the taboo', beaten into your psyche

since your toddler times.

In Thailand they don't do that that nearly as forcefully as the western

judeo-christian or middle eastern Muslim cultures. This may have to

do with the visibly higher percentage of alternate sexuality individuals

particularly in males, that is visible in society, and in classica Thai literature

through it's history.

Bottom line is :

It is much more normal in Thailand than in the west,

and the Thais most upset about it are the most morally westernized ones.

The average Thai just accepts their child will be who they are in their life.

Though some apparently groom their children as profit centers as they see the

most profit possible in said individual child. This likely has more to do with

Kow Tow, face making by possessions shown greed, a 'keeping up with the Jones'

attitude than any actual intent to groom a katoey to have ine in the family.

Edited March 12, 2012 by animatic

[PoodMaiDai]

Oh my god, it is a job. Some people are so narrow minded. They did not go and grab your nuts on a plane. LOL

How do you know that doesn't come with First Class perks?

[koto]

Definition of the word tolerance:

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

I know the definition, thanks.

You did not answer to my question. WHY must I respect their practices at the first place - prior to my own ones? Sorry, I dare not.

Having respect for self, others, being fully responsible for all of ones actions. I'm finding way to many farangs over here are just little boys in older bodies, incapable of a normal relationship and being judge and jury on others, deciding how someone else should live, be, act.

Wanna-be is OK and up to that person, get over yourselves and direct your own lives, this Macho stuff, is getting old.

Live and let live, judge ones self, before judging others, mirror, mirror on the wall, I realize there are many farangs out there that are understanding adults, but on these post, they are far and few between, most sounds like having a major lack of understanding, grumpy old men.

Don't get me wrong, there are a few of you mature understanding people out there that live and let live, not trying to be a God, leading the flock down their narrow path, that you can't be a girl in a boys body or visa-verse, we are "all" different, some more then others, grow up and live with it.

[DoctorHu]

Good job PC. Even if the airline benefits from the publicity. More real jobs for transladies! And guys admit that one reason you are there is the lack of stigma and sin around sex. "Judeo Christian sexual repression"....aka sex is bad, go to work. Thank you Thailand for being different. As far as genetics, think about it ? Do any of you men out there really want to go under the knife and have the lads removed if you were not really sure some one stuck you in the wrong body?

Edited March 12, 2012 by DoctorHu

[tombkk]

Genes can play tricks on the body.

He was born as a man, and he will live with that, and die with that - regardless his "cut-offs" and wearing girlie things. That's it.

A simple, purest haraam (حرام).

i believe nature sometimes mixes things

And I believe in human's idiocity, short-thinking and selfish.

Doing such of things as "transfer yourself" has nothing to do with nature, it is just a common excuse (I've read'em a thousand times).

It is quite interesting how involved you get in this thread. Usually, a straight man would just give a smile and say that "men can be the most beautiful women" and give a shrug. But no, you seem to be personally offended by people who define as female even though they were born with a male body. By the way, this (being born with a body that has a different gender than the feeling and mind) happens a lot, in all countries. Nature does that, not upbringing. These people are to be addressed as "she", if they define themselves as female and you have some basic respect for your fellow-humans.

I wonder why this upsets you so much, and why are you so fond of "balls of steel". The average straight male wouldn't care, now, would they.

I myself think that employing four transgender people as flight assistants - not all flight assistants are transgender - and publicizing this well ahead of the launch is a marketing gimmick.

[Bagwan]

The primary role of Cabin Staff aircrew is to make people aware of where the emergency exits are and the procedure to be followed in the case of an emergency, the location of all emergency and first aid equipment and how and when to use it, and to ensure that panic does not break out if things go awry. Knowledge of food and wines, currency exchange rates, customs regulations at the destination country and a working knowledge of how an aircraft works and flies are also prerequisites. Cabin staff must pass stringent tests on all these things before they are granted a licence which relates to aircraft type and, if as I was, subject to flying in 3 different aircraft types, had to hold a separate licence for each. In every calendar month two flights must be made in an aircraft for which you hold a licence or the licence is suspended. Part of the test was being blindfolded and taken to the foot of the steps to an aircraft and told to return with an item of equipment so that one firstly had to grope around to ascertain what the aircraft type was and then proceed to obtain, say a fire axe or an oxygen bottle.

Each aircraft in public service must be crewed by licence holders in the ratio of 1:50 seats. Stewards and stewaresses are tested annually and subject to the attentions of inflight senior Cabin Staff Inspectors at about three monthly intervals. They are required to be smartly attired, efficient and courteous at all times. Cabin staff are much much more than pretty faces or eye candy. The only occasion that hotel rooms were shared in my experience was by invitation.

The gender and sexual preferences of aircrew were very much a private matter and of no concern to others. Nor should they be to passengers. Given that in the UK population 4% of the male members have homosexual leanings then in a Jumbo jet you may be in the company of 16 males whose predelictions in sexual matters may want to make you make use of a sick bag. Have a good trip.

P.S. one of the nicest people that I have had the pleasure of knowing, but not in the biblical sense, is a Katoey who weighs in at about 230 pounds. She is kind, considerate and helpful and takes care of an ignorant, drunken, scruffy, lying thief who many wish would attract the attention of the Immigration department.

[richard_smith237]

I really cant see how the ‘sexual spectrum’ has any effect on some-ones ability to perform such a roll.

I doubt I’d even look twice, if the person is well suited to and does the job well, good luck to them and congratulations to an airline willing to push the boundaries of what is sometimes an intolerant and bigoted society.

That said - This works in Thailand as the LB’s are often highly presentable and readily mistaken for ladies.

[koto]

Definition of the word tolerance:

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

I know the definition, thanks.

You did not answer to my question. WHY must I respect their practices at the first place - prior to my own ones? Sorry, I dare not.

Your right! You must respect yourself first, sadly though some never do.

[koto]

Personally, I have no problem with it at all and think it should be supported. BUT, unfortunately I doubt its a good marketing ploy.

There are way too many Western men who dislike gays and/or trans-sexuals. The Western world is (generally) far less tolerant than Thailand.

This airline only flies to Asian locations at the moment. They attract mostly curiosity with Asians, just look at all the Chinese tour buses in front of the various transgender cabaret shows, so I don't think it will be a problem. This could be a good business decision.

They could have some nasty incidents flying to certain countries though

What about layovers? Airlines typically room crew together. Where do you put such confusiion? Whose rights take precedence? What about public restrooms? The civilized world has laws.

Who ever said the civilized world was correct........about anything. We have made many mistakes as civilized people and we keep making them so to become hard line about something we don't understand is pure stupidity we can see that throughout history.. The other day American Airlines had a female flight attendent go nuts on a plane.... Have you ever seen the flight attendents in America....they can't fire them because of there age......then to hear about this lady.......this is the first time I have ever heard that they cannot fire someone because they have mental problems....<deleted> What kind of law is that.....is this the level the level of intellegance that the Western worlds consider conducive to a safe enviroment for everyone. What about the rights of 300 ppl on the plane that are supposed to be entrusting this lady's wisdom.....I liked when they said....everything is ok.....she just forgot to take her medicine. This is not good judgement by the Western policy which tells you that they don't know or understand everything.....and this is just one example....out millions. Hitstory tells us that we are habitual F*(% UP's and we seem to find the weakest people to take it out on.

Now that's what I'm talkin about, Kapun Kup, Mahalo Nui Loa, Thank You Very Much, cha,cha,cha.

[arrowsdawdle]

Personally, I have no problem with it at all and think it should be supported. BUT, unfortunately I doubt its a good marketing ploy.

There are way too many Western men who dislike gays and/or trans-sexuals. The Western world is (generally) far less tolerant than Thailand.

This airline only flies to Asian locations at the moment. They attract mostly curiosity with Asians, just look at all the Chinese tour buses in front of the various transgender cabaret shows, so I don't think it will be a problem. This could be a good business decision.

They could have some nasty incidents flying to certain countries though

What about layovers? Airlines typically room crew together. Where do you put such confusiion? Whose rights take precedence? What about public restrooms? The civilized world has laws.

Who ever said the civilized world was correct........about anything. We have made many mistakes as civilized people and we keep making them so to become hard line about something we don't understand is pure stupidity we can see that throughout history.. The other day American Airlines had a female flight attendent go nuts on a plane.... Have you ever seen the flight attendents in America....they can't fire them because of there age......then to hear about this lady.......this is the first time I have ever heard that they cannot fire someone because they have mental problems....<deleted> What kind of law is that.....is this the level the level of intellegance that the Western worlds consider conducive to a safe enviroment for everyone. What about the rights of 300 ppl on the plane that are supposed to be entrusting this lady's wisdom.....I liked when they said....everything is ok.....she just forgot to take her medicine. This is not good judgement by the Western policy which tells you that they don't know or understand everything.....and this is just one example....out millions. Hitstory tells us that we are habitual F*(% UP's and we seem to find the weakest people to take it out on.

The reason for not being fired is owing to organized labor unions that lobby legislation with democrat lawmakers that are the haven of liberal (including gay) constituencies espousing big government. But, legislationi isn't always necessary because the labor/management contracts specify individual policy agreements. It is typical of both gay and hetero liberal democrats to exhibit "me first" behavior and expect civilization to adjust and accommodate them. It is reminiscent of the mother watching her son marching in the homecoming parade and saying, "Look at that, every one of those kids is out of step but my Johnny."