Red Shirts To Mark 2nd Anniversary Of Protests

[rixalex]

Rixalex, forgive me for reading and understanding the article :

The forgiveness you require is not for your reading and understanding skills, which i'm sure are first rate, but for your parroting of a politician's words and your taking of those words as a certain truth. I'm sure you are not usually in the habit of disengaging all your powers of critical thinking when reading news. For some reason though you now extend that generous courtesy to Ms. Thida. Perhaps you feel she has earnt it based on UDD's track history of always speaking the gospel and never having had (badly) hidden agendas?

Edited March 17, 2012 by rixalex

[tlansford]

Rixalex, forgive me for reading and understanding the article :

The forgiveness you require is not for your reading and understanding skills, which i'm sure are first rate, but for your parroting of a politician's words and your taking of those words as a certain truth. I'm sure you are not usually in the habit of disengaging all your powers of critical thinking when reading news. For some reason though you now extend that generous courtesy to Ms. Thida. Perhaps you feel she has earnt it based on UDD's track history of always speaking the gospel and never having had (badly) hidden agendas?

Rixalex, I guess I would say that I "parrot", to use your term, what this politician said, because it is pretty straight forward.

- udd announces that they will gather at 2 locations on the anniversary dates of the deaths of many people to have ceremonies an make merit.

- they have announced things like this before, and then they actually did just what they said.

Why would it require that my critical thinking be disengaged in order to believe what is announced here?

I imagine like other times, they'll make speeches, have some music, food, etc, and it will run the regular course during the day.

But since you talk about a hidden agenda, feel free to share it.

[Insight]

Wow. Two years since the red shirts laid down the new rules of engagement for their protests.

It's amazing the overall death toll has remained as relatively low as it currently stands, considering the extreme lengths they went to.

Kudos to the Thai military for managing to maintain their cool throughout.

[rixalex]

Why would it require that my critical thinking be disengaged in order to believe what is announced here?

Because what you were parroting and taking as gospel, wasn't what their plans were for the day, which i have no reason to doubt, but what the purpose of it all was.

If you think this is simply about respecting the deaths, and believe that because that is what UDD tells you, then yes, your ability to analyse and think at all critically, is obviously disengaged...and i'm sure Ms Thida appreciates it.

[tlansford]

Why would it require that my critical thinking be disengaged in order to believe what is announced here?

Because what you were parroting and taking as gospel, wasn't what their plans were for the day, which i have no reason to doubt, but what the purpose of it all was.

If you think this is simply about respecting the deaths, and believe that because that is what UDD tells you, then yes, your ability to analyse and think at all critically, is obviously disengaged...and i'm sure Ms Thida appreciates it.

Every gathering of the UDD & PAD is political. That's not news.

As I already ask you in my last post, if you see a hidden agenda then please share it, otherwise, we can assume that they will merit making and activities planned to commemorate the dead, and not be, how did the other poster put it, celebrating stupidity.

If not, then we can drop the discussion.

[rixalex]

Every gathering of the UDD & PAD is political. That's not news.

As I already ask you in my last post, if you see a hidden agenda then please share it, otherwise, we can assume that they will merit making and activities planned to commemorate the dead, and not be, how did the other poster put it, celebrating stupidity.

If not, then we can drop the discussion.

I think your post contradicts itself and confirms the very point i was making.

This discussion began with your pronouncement, that basically echoed UDD's pronouncement, that all they were trying to do was respect the dead. I questioned whether there might be more to it than what they were saying (ie a political angle) and questioned why you would simply parrot their words without question.

Now, in your post above, you accept that every gathering of UDD is political - the point i was making - but then confusingly go straight back to your earlier stance that all they are doing is respecting the dead. If all they were doing was respecting the dead, then why say that every meeting is political?

As for the hidden agenda that you are oblivious of, i would say the main one is to present themselves in the most media grabbing, attention seeking method to the media, as being the ones who were persecuted - the victims who had no hand in their own fate. Bearing in mind that isn't the case, bearing in mind the UDD leaders have to take some responsibility for what transpired and what led to deaths, why not, if they really sincerely are all about respecting the dead, do something privately and quietly, whether that be at a temple or whether that be at Rachaprasong - but without press releases, without fanfare, without mass gatherings, without closing down streets. Wouldn't that be somewhat more respectful, more dignified? Going wherever they chose to go, not as a red, but simply as one Thai person respecting the death of another Thai person. Wouldn't that remove the political angle. I think it would. But that would defeat the purpose. This is all about politics.

[phiphidon]

Every gathering of the UDD & PAD is political. That's not news.

As I already ask you in my last post, if you see a hidden agenda then please share it, otherwise, we can assume that they will merit making and activities planned to commemorate the dead, and not be, how did the other poster put it, celebrating stupidity.

If not, then we can drop the discussion.

I think your post contradicts itself and confirms the very point i was making.

This discussion began with your pronouncement, that basically echoed UDD's pronouncement, that all they were trying to do was respect the dead. I questioned whether there might be more to it than what they were saying (ie a political angle) and questioned why you would simply parrot their words without question.

Now, in your post above, you accept that every gathering of UDD is political - the point i was making - but then confusingly go straight back to your earlier stance that all they are doing is respecting the dead. If all they were doing was respecting the dead, then why say that every meeting is political?

As for the hidden agenda that you are oblivious of, i would say the main one is to present themselves in the most media grabbing, attention seeking method to the media, as being the ones who were persecuted - the victims who had no hand in their own fate. Bearing in mind that isn't the case, bearing in mind the UDD leaders have to take some responsibility for what transpired and what led to deaths, why not, if they really sincerely are all about respecting the dead, do something privately and quietly, whether that be at a temple or whether that be at Rachaprasong - but without press releases, without fanfare, without mass gatherings, without closing down streets. Wouldn't that be somewhat more respectful, more dignified? Going wherever they chose to go, not as a red, but simply as one Thai person respecting the death of another Thai person. Wouldn't that remove the political angle. I think it would. But that would defeat the purpose. This is all about politics.

Lets put it simply. The UDD does not want the events of April-May 2010 and the dead forgotten. The relatives and loved ones of the dead do not want them forgotten. They want to keep people in mind of why those people are dead. They want to concentrate the minds of the politicians (on both sides) on not forgetting the dead. They want answers, they still want change. And where better to do that than where most people regard as the symbolic centre of the protests - Remember the slogan "people died at Ratchaprasong" and then Suthep crassly pointed out that this wasn't so.

Why do you think Abhisit chose Ratchaprasong for the final democratic election rally? It was a psychological act, supposedly "winning back" Ratchaprasong for Bangoks citizens. Unfortunately for him it backfired and was a major PR blunder. Of course it's political, there is no hidden agenda. They can remember the dead and make a political point at the same time - the people (on both "sides") died because of politics.

The very first sentence of the OP spells it out - again there is no hidden agenda, it's in full view of everyone.

The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) or the Red Shirt movement will hold ceremonies next month to mark the 2nd anniversary of its protests against the then Abhisit administration at Democracy Monument and Ratchaprasong intersection, UDD Chairperson Thida Thavornseth said here Friday.

Edited March 18, 2012 by phiphidon

[tlansford]

Every gathering of the UDD & PAD is political. That's not news.

As I already ask you in my last post, if you see a hidden agenda then please share it, otherwise, we can assume that they will merit making and activities planned to commemorate the dead, and not be, how did the other poster put it, celebrating stupidity.

If not, then we can drop the discussion.

I think your post contradicts itself and confirms the very point i was making.

This discussion began with your pronouncement, that basically echoed UDD's pronouncement, that all they were trying to do was respect the dead. I questioned whether there might be more to it than what they were saying (ie a political angle) and questioned why you would simply parrot their words without question.

Now, in your post above, you accept that every gathering of UDD is political - the point i was making - but then confusingly go straight back to your earlier stance that all they are doing is respecting the dead. If all they were doing was respecting the dead, then why say that every meeting is political?

As for the hidden agenda that you are oblivious of, i would say the main one is to present themselves in the most media grabbing, attention seeking method to the media, as being the ones who were persecuted - the victims who had no hand in their own fate. Bearing in mind that isn't the case, bearing in mind the UDD leaders have to take some responsibility for what transpired and what led to deaths, why not, if they really sincerely are all about respecting the dead, do something privately and quietly, whether that be at a temple or whether that be at Rachaprasong - but without press releases, without fanfare, without mass gatherings, without closing down streets. Wouldn't that be somewhat more respectful, more dignified? Going wherever they chose to go, not as a red, but simply as one Thai person respecting the death of another Thai person. Wouldn't that remove the political angle. I think it would. But that would defeat the purpose. This is all about politics.

Thanks for the response. I think where we have miscommunicated is clearer.

My comment that you first mentioned was in response to 3 messages of hate-speech (one deleted already I see), to an announcement of ... well a commemoration.

That they are remembering those who died is not an exclusive statement - eg: "all they are doing" as you said in response. (even the article says "merit making and activities") But it is the main reason for gathering on those dates in those locations.

So, yes, they'll gather, make merit, have speeches, what ever is planned, etc. The UDD is a politically-focused group. Their actions are political.

But that is not a hidden agenda, IMO. It seems more like the foundation of all their activities.

As for doing things quietly, going to a temple, etc, that is all fine and good - I am sure many people wished that would be all that they would do, but by definition that is not a public commemoration. Why should a public commemoration be less sincere? People around the world have public commemorations all the time.

So I think we see the same thing, although certainly from different political perspectives.

[OzMick]

Well yes. Such methods have been used in Ireland (and elsewhere) to highlight minor political/religious differences and perpetuate hatred for hundreds of years. We have the coloured uniforms, all we need now is some rousing revolutionary songs and a couple of public holidays to keep the ball rolling for generations.

i must admit red villages are a bit of a novel concept.

[TAWP]

I support the Red Shirts right to have this anniversary.

And I hope they also respect others choice to celebrate this anniversary in a different way.

[bigbamboo]

Surely the first step to reconciliation would be to stop all red shirt and yellow shirt activity, would it not?

Edited March 18, 2012 by bigbamboo

[tlansford]

Surely the first step to reconciliation would be to stop all red shirt and yellow shirt activity, would it not?

no, that would not be the first step.

Reconciliation is not achieved by telling people shut up and go home, but by creating a dialog in society & politics and moving toward agreement where possible, compromises where possible, and agreeing to disagree where possible.

Reconciliation is about respect and respecting people who may have different views from your own, but still finding ways to live together & govern together.

[whybother]

Did 300,000 people turn up?

[bigbamboo]

Well yes. Such methods have been used in Ireland (and elsewhere) to highlight minor political/religious differences and perpetuate hatred for hundreds of years. We have the coloured uniforms, all we need now is some rousing revolutionary songs and a couple of public holidays to keep the ball rolling for generations.

i must admit red villages are a bit of a novel concept.

At least there's no danger of any marches in Thailand!

Edited March 19, 2012 by bigbamboo

[Buchholz]

Did 300,000 people turn up?

[phiphidon]

Did 300,000 people turn up?

Difficult to tell really, this far in advance. The ceremonies are not due to be held until April 10th and May 19th. Oh, you're just trolling .

[phiphidon]

Did 300,000 people turn up?

Chewing gum for the brain .

[whybother]

Did 300,000 people turn up?

Difficult to tell really, this far in advance. The ceremonies are not due to be held until April 10th and May 19th. Oh, you're just trolling .

Actually, I thought they were celebrating the start of the protests.

[rubl]

Lets put it simply. The UDD does not want the events of April-May 2010 and the dead forgotten. The relatives and loved ones of the dead do not want them forgotten. They want to keep people in mind of why those people are dead. They want to concentrate the minds of the politicians (on both sides) on not forgetting the dead. They want answers, they still want change. And where better to do that than where most people regard as the symbolic centre of the protests - Remember the slogan "people died at Ratchaprasong" and then Suthep crassly pointed out that this wasn't so.

Why do you think Abhisit chose Ratchaprasong for the final democratic election rally? It was a psychological act, supposedly "winning back" Ratchaprasong for Bangoks citizens. Unfortunately for him it backfired and was a major PR blunder. Of course it's political, there is no hidden agenda. They can remember the dead and make a political point at the same time - the people (on both "sides") died because of politics.

The very first sentence of the OP spells it out - again there is no hidden agenda, it's in full view of everyone.

The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) or the Red Shirt movement will hold ceremonies next month to mark the 2nd anniversary of its protests against the then Abhisit administration at Democracy Monument and Ratchaprasong intersection, UDD Chairperson Thida Thavornseth said here Friday.

No hidden agenda, crystal clear. They want to concentrate the minds of the politicians (on both sides) on not forgetting the dead. Crystal clear!

"Ms Thida said that the merit-making ceremony and activities would be held April 10 to commemorate the deaths of fellow red shirts killed in the clash with government troops at Khok Wua intersection on Rachadamnoen Avenue, near the Democracy Monument on April 10, 2010."

PM Yingluck just came back from Japan offering (written) condolences and reminded of right to compensation to relatives of Mr. Muramoto, but then Ms. Yingluck is not a UDD member, nor a red-shirt. The colonel with five other army personel killed by grenade attack on the 10th conviently forgotten as well. All in the name of reconciliation of course, no hidden agenda

Edited March 19, 2012 by rubl

[WackySomchai]

Don't worry, we will never forget what you did ...

[hyperdimension]

But since you talk about a hidden agenda, feel free to share it.

I would say that the agenda is one of social engineering. Holding frequent rallies maintains the strength and cohesion of their community that they have built over the past 5 years (with significant funding). Since their side is now in power, they can't regularly gather to protest against the government like they did when Abhisit was in power, so now they gather to commemorate or celebrate something. The entertainment encourages those who may not care about politics to meet up with friends and party. It's the frequent meetups that has kept bonds strong between its members and thus the movement alive.

[hyperdimension]

Surely the first step to reconciliation would be to stop all red shirt and yellow shirt activity, would it not?

no, that would not be the first step.

Reconciliation is not achieved by telling people shut up and go home, but by creating a dialog in society & politics and moving toward agreement where possible, compromises where possible, and agreeing to disagree where possible.

Reconciliation is about respect and respecting people who may have different views from your own, but still finding ways to live together & govern together.

So to foster reconciliation, they should now invite everyone to all of their events - the Yellow Shirts, the army, the Democrats and maybe even royalty.

[nurofiend]

snip

"The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) or the Red Shirt movement "

Always makes me laugh, and cringe, when I read UDD. Democracy against Dictatorship?

snip

What about when you read PAD, The People's Alliance for Democracy? does that make you laugh too?

or is supporting a coup what you would consider an achievement for an 'alliance of democracy'?

[nurofiend]

wow, ...

"flames of hate"

"redshits"

"ignorance and stupidity", & this gem,

"they suck"...

All in just 3 posts about an article on merit-making ceremonies to commemorate people who died in Thailand's worse political violence in 20 years...

Glad you guys aren't in charge of reconciliation.

Perhaps you weren't here during the 2010 riots when these peaceful protesters tried to burn down Bangkok.

I WAS.

If they really wanted reconcilliation then they would permanently disband and cease all this anniversary BS.

The courts would find the leaders guilty of terrorism and lock them up for the rest of their lives and treason charges would be filed against some of them, including Thaksin.

Until such time as Thais are held accountable for their actions, Thailand will remain a third world country.

If they really wanted reconcilliation then they would permanently disband and cease all this anniversary BS.

all this anniversary BS?????????

maybe human life means nothing to you, but i'm glad to see the people branded on here as 'mindless thugs' give it some significance.

[nurofiend]

I support the Red Shirts right to have this anniversary.

And I hope they also respect others choice to celebrate this anniversary in a different way.

what do you mean by that, how else would it be celebrated by others?

[tlansford]

But since you talk about a hidden agenda, feel free to share it.

I would say that the agenda is one of social engineering. Holding frequent rallies maintains the strength and cohesion of their community that they have built over the past 5 years (with significant funding). Since their side is now in power, they can't regularly gather to protest against the government like they did when Abhisit was in power, so now they gather to commemorate or celebrate something. The entertainment encourages those who may not care about politics to meet up with friends and party. It's the frequent meetups that has kept bonds strong between its members and thus the movement alive.

I agree that regular rallies keep the movement (any movement) alive. A movement without activities, without action, is not a movement.

As for the comparison to in/out of power, I would say that last year the UDD commemorated the crack down last year and Abhisit was in power and just this past month the UDD had a large rally and the PTP is in power. Not to say that which gov't is in power doesn't affect their rallies, just to point out that it is not IMO the key factor.

[tlansford]

I support the Red Shirts right to have this anniversary.

And I hope they also respect others choice to celebrate this anniversary in a different way.

what do you mean by that, how else would it be celebrated by others?

Wardrobe changes. ...

April 10, yellow shirt

May 19, blue shirt

[OzMick]

But since you talk about a hidden agenda, feel free to share it.

I would say that the agenda is one of social engineering. Holding frequent rallies maintains the strength and cohesion of their community that they have built over the past 5 years (with significant funding). Since their side is now in power, they can't regularly gather to protest against the government like they did when Abhisit was in power, so now they gather to commemorate or celebrate something. The entertainment encourages those who may not care about politics to meet up with friends and party. It's the frequent meetups that has kept bonds strong between its members and thus the movement alive.

I agree that regular rallies keep the movement (any movement) alive. A movement without activities, without action, is not a movement.

As for the comparison to in/out of power, I would say that last year the UDD commemorated the crack down last year and Abhisit was in power and just this past month the UDD had a large rally and the PTP is in power. Not to say that which gov't is in power doesn't affect their rallies, just to point out that it is not IMO the key factor.

Hopefully with PTP in power, there will be no pre-rally speeches urging them to bring their guns and other weapons, and to bring bottles for fire-bombs. If they leave their weapons at home, there shouldn't be any casualties.

But I doubt anybody will stand up and point out that that was the root cause of 93 deaths 2 years ago.

[phiphidon]

I agree that regular rallies keep the movement (any movement) alive. A movement without activities, without action, is not a movement.

As for the comparison to in/out of power, I would say that last year the UDD commemorated the crack down last year and Abhisit was in power and just this past month the UDD had a large rally and the PTP is in power. Not to say that which gov't is in power doesn't affect their rallies, just to point out that it is not IMO the key factor.

Hopefully with PTP in power, there will be no pre-rally speeches urging them to bring their guns and other weapons, and to bring bottles for fire-bombs. If they leave their weapons at home, there shouldn't be any casualties.

But I doubt anybody will stand up and point out that that was the root cause of 93 deaths 2 years ago.

As Suthep isn't in charge of a "CRES", Abhisit isn't PM, and providing the Army stay in their barracks you can guarantee there will not be casulties, imo root causes of 93 deaths 2 years ago. Suthep really shouldn't have signed off on that "bring live bullets to a peaceful demo" order on April 10th.

Finally, former deputy prime minister for security and one-time head of the Center for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) Suthep Thaugsuban has admitted that a leaked document showing that the center had ordered security officers to use live rounds during last year's protests is in fact authentic............the three pages of the CRES order clearly are dated April 10 and 13........

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1046658

[OzMick]

Perhaps they heard the speech "if you've got a gun, use your gun................"