Red Shirts To Mark 2nd Anniversary Of Protests

[tlansford]

I agree that regular rallies keep the movement (any movement) alive. A movement without activities, without action, is not a movement.

As for the comparison to in/out of power, I would say that last year the UDD commemorated the crack down last year and Abhisit was in power and just this past month the UDD had a large rally and the PTP is in power. Not to say that which gov't is in power doesn't affect their rallies, just to point out that it is not IMO the key factor.

Hopefully with PTP in power, there will be no pre-rally speeches urging them to bring their guns and other weapons, and to bring bottles for fire-bombs. If they leave their weapons at home, there shouldn't be any casualties.

But I doubt anybody will stand up and point out that that was the root cause of 93 deaths 2 years ago.

As Suthep isn't in charge of a "CRES", Abhisit isn't PM, and providing the Army stay in their barracks you can guarantee there will not be casulties, imo root causes of 93 deaths 2 years ago. Suthep really shouldn't have signed off on that "bring live bullets to a peaceful demo" order on April 10th.

Finally, former deputy prime minister for security and one-time head of the Center for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) Suthep Thaugsuban has admitted that a leaked document showing that the center had ordered security officers to use live rounds during last year's protests is in fact authentic............the three pages of the CRES order clearly are dated April 10 and 13........

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1046658

Thanks for rising to take the bait with the right information. And thanks for the link, too. I had not known that such an order was documented and dated.

[phiphidon]

As Suthep isn't in charge of a "CRES", Abhisit isn't PM, and providing the Army stay in their barracks you can guarantee there will not be casulties, imo root causes of 93 deaths 2 years ago. Suthep really shouldn't have signed off on that "bring live bullets to a peaceful demo" order on April 10th.

Finally, former deputy prime minister for security and one-time head of the Center for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) Suthep Thaugsuban has admitted that a leaked document showing that the center had ordered security officers to use live rounds during last year's protests is in fact authentic............the three pages of the CRES order clearly are dated April 10 and 13........

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1046658

Thanks for rising to take the bait with the right information. And thanks for the link, too. I had not known that such an order was documented and dated.

I think that was the general idea, that nobody should know of such an order, or the date. Respect to the Khao Sod Newspaper, showing what investigative journalism should be about. Makes you wonder what else they lied about, this event, the 500 MIB, the anti-monarchy conspiracy mind map, nobody having being killed by the security forces, the 2nd version of Muramotos death, troops not being on the tracks above the Wat, troops not firing into the wat grounds from those tracks, troops only firing in self defence, the red shirt military training ground in Cambodia, the 11 man Chiang Mai Bomber squad, etc.

[rubl]

As Suthep isn't in charge of a "CRES", Abhisit isn't PM, and providing the Army stay in their barracks you can guarantee there will not be casulties, imo root causes of 93 deaths 2 years ago. Suthep really shouldn't have signed off on that "bring live bullets to a peaceful demo" order on April 10th.

Finally, former deputy prime minister for security and one-time head of the Center for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) Suthep Thaugsuban has admitted that a leaked document showing that the center had ordered security officers to use live rounds during last year's protests is in fact authentic............the three pages of the CRES order clearly are dated April 10 and 13........

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1046658

Thanks for rising to take the bait with the right information. And thanks for the link, too. I had not known that such an order was documented and dated.

I think that was the general idea, that nobody should know of such an order, or the date. Respect to the Khao Sod Newspaper, showing what investigative journalism should be about. Makes you wonder what else they lied about, this event, the 500 MIB, the anti-monarchy conspiracy mind map, nobody having being killed by the security forces, the 2nd version of Muramotos death, troops not being on the tracks above the Wat, troops not firing into the wat grounds from those tracks, troops only firing in self defence, the red shirt military training ground in Cambodia, the 11 man Chiang Mai Bomber squad, etc.

Makes you wonder what else is lied about, the grenade attack on April 10th killing a colonel and staff, the 60+ grenade attacks, the grenade wounding the Canadian journalist and two soldiers May 19th with our local reporter NN running for his life, the Thai lady killed on April 22nd at BTS Saladaeng, k. Arisman telling to bring empty bottles to be filled in Bangkok, k. Nattawut saying 'it's on me, I take the responsebility, k. Jatuporn willing to shed his blood, but not today. Plus of course the tape with k. Abhisit saying 'kill me some red shirts'

Makes you wonder for sure!

Gandalf: There was no lie in Pippin's eyes. A fool... but an honest fool, he remains

Edited March 20, 2012 by rubl

[waza]

But since you talk about a hidden agenda, feel free to share it.

I would say that the agenda is one of social engineering. Holding frequent rallies maintains the strength and cohesion of their community that they have built over the past 5 years (with significant funding). Since their side is now in power, they can't regularly gather to protest against the government like they did when Abhisit was in power, so now they gather to commemorate or celebrate something. The entertainment encourages those who may not care about politics to meet up with friends and party. It's the frequent meetups that has kept bonds strong between its members and thus the movement alive.

I agree if it was about the innocents that died then it should be held in a temple in the Buhdist manner. It is really an in your face show that these organisations are still a force or farce with credibility in a PTP run country. Although one could argue that it shows disloyalty to their politcal masters. Still they could have a free concert as well to get another 500,000 people there lol.

[waza]

I agree that regular rallies keep the movement (any movement) alive. A movement without activities, without action, is not a movement.

As for the comparison to in/out of power, I would say that last year the UDD commemorated the crack down last year and Abhisit was in power and just this past month the UDD had a large rally and the PTP is in power. Not to say that which gov't is in power doesn't affect their rallies, just to point out that it is not IMO the key factor.

Hopefully with PTP in power, there will be no pre-rally speeches urging them to bring their guns and other weapons, and to bring bottles for fire-bombs. If they leave their weapons at home, there shouldn't be any casualties.

But I doubt anybody will stand up and point out that that was the root cause of 93 deaths 2 years ago.

As Suthep isn't in charge of a "CRES", Abhisit isn't PM, and providing the Army stay in their barracks you can guarantee there will not be casulties, imo root causes of 93 deaths 2 years ago. Suthep really shouldn't have signed off on that "bring live bullets to a peaceful demo" order on April 10th.

Finally, former deputy prime minister for security and one-time head of the Center for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) Suthep Thaugsuban has admitted that a leaked document showing that the center had ordered security officers to use live rounds during last year's protests is in fact authentic............the three pages of the CRES order clearly are dated April 10 and 13........

http://www.tannetwor...?DataID=1046658

Interesting disclaimer at the bottom........Translated and Rewritten by Itiporn Lakarnchua

Please note that the views expressed in our "Analysis" segment are translated from local newspaper articles and do not reflect the views of the Thai-ASEAN News Network.

However, there were free fire areas around the 2010 protests, in order for these to be effective I guess you would need live rounds.

Edited March 20, 2012 by waza

[rixalex]

The UDD does not want the events of April-May 2010 and the dead forgotten.

Not entirely true. They want some events remembered, some events forgotten about.

The relatives and loved ones of the dead do not want them forgotten.

Do the relatives of any deceased person wish them to be forgotten about? Usually the answer is no, so you are somewhat stating the obvious. The question is rather, do all these deceased people deserve to be remembered as innocent victims, as brave heroes, and celebrated as such by the closing down of streets, and by the people who had a hand in their deaths?

They want to keep people in mind of why those people are dead.

They want to keep people in mind of why those people are dead, as long as people forget about UDD's own part in that, and just focus on everyone else. If this commemoration wasn't only about remembering the dead, but about UDD asking for the forgiveness of the families, and asking for the forgiveness of the country, wouldn't that be a much more reconciliatory way of going about things, and wouldn't that put immense pressure on everyone else to fess up to what went wrong and the things they could have done differently. I think it would. Instead what we have is a political game. A show.

The people who died are being used in death, just as they were in life. Sad.

[phiphidon]

I think that was the general idea, that nobody should know of such an order, or the date. Respect to the Khao Sod Newspaper, showing what investigative journalism should be about. Makes you wonder what else they lied about, this event, the 500 MIB, the anti-monarchy conspiracy mind map, nobody having being killed by the security forces, the 2nd version of Muramotos death, troops not being on the tracks above the Wat, troops not firing into the wat grounds from those tracks, troops only firing in self defence, the red shirt military training ground in Cambodia, the 11 man Chiang Mai Bomber squad, etc.

Makes you wonder what else is lied about, the grenade attack on April 10th killing a colonel and staff, the 60+ grenade attacks, the grenade wounding the Canadian journalist and two soldiers May 19th with our local reporter NN running for his life, the Thai lady killed on April 22nd at BTS Saladaeng, k. Arisman telling to bring empty bottles to be filled in Bangkok, k. Nattawut saying 'it's on me, I take the responsebility, k. Jatuporn willing to shed his blood, but not today. Plus of course the tape with k. Abhisit saying 'kill me some red shirts'

Makes you wonder for sure!

Gandalf: There was no lie in Pippin's eyes. A fool... but an honest fool, he remains

Has anybody from the PTP or the UDD lied about any of these incidents - I mean as in making a statement that they didn't do it but it has been proved that they did?

See, that is the major difference between your examples and mine. My examples are proof of where the Abhisit government have lied, outright. And you think that is OK, sweep it under the carpet, "it's the Reds wat dun it".

Honest fool I may be (if that was the implication behind your schoolboy taunt), but at least I am honest.

[rubl]

I think that was the general idea, that nobody should know of such an order, or the date. Respect to the Khao Sod Newspaper, showing what investigative journalism should be about. Makes you wonder what else they lied about, this event, the 500 MIB, the anti-monarchy conspiracy mind map, nobody having being killed by the security forces, the 2nd version of Muramotos death, troops not being on the tracks above the Wat, troops not firing into the wat grounds from those tracks, troops only firing in self defence, the red shirt military training ground in Cambodia, the 11 man Chiang Mai Bomber squad, etc.

Makes you wonder what else is lied about, the grenade attack on April 10th killing a colonel and staff, the 60+ grenade attacks, the grenade wounding the Canadian journalist and two soldiers May 19th with our local reporter NN running for his life, the Thai lady killed on April 22nd at BTS Saladaeng, k. Arisman telling to bring empty bottles to be filled in Bangkok, k. Nattawut saying 'it's on me, I take the responsebility, k. Jatuporn willing to shed his blood, but not today. Plus of course the tape with k. Abhisit saying 'kill me some red shirts'

Makes you wonder for sure!

Gandalf: There was no lie in Pippin's eyes. A fool... but an honest fool, he remains

Has anybody from the PTP or the UDD lied about any of these incidents - I mean as in making a statement that they didn't do it but it has been proved that they did?

See, that is the major difference between your examples and mine. My examples are proof of where the Abhisit government have lied, outright. And you think that is OK, sweep it under the carpet, "it's the Reds wat dun it".

Honest fool I may be (if that was the implication behind your schoolboy taunt), but at least I am honest.

Pheu Thai and UDD leaders have never ever (as far as I know) acknowledged any wrongdoing in the March - May 2010 mayhem. It's all the fault of k. Abhisit, k. Suthep and their army. Too many video clips show so.

So in a topic about 'red shirts to mark a 2nd anniversary' and Ms. Thida talking about 'remembering red-shirt deaths', asking about truth and lying seems a bit cynical.

I was in Bangkok in those days, I passed BTS Saladaeng and RamaIV to UCL frequently, where were you?

My quote of Gandalf was inappropriate, but then it's not nice to call another poster 'just a fool'. I'm willing though to accept you're an honest, but probably misguided fool.

Edited March 22, 2012 by rubl

[phiphidon]

Interesting disclaimer at the bottom........Translated and Rewritten by Itiporn Lakarnchua

Please note that the views expressed in our "Analysis" segment are translated from local newspaper articles and do not reflect the views of the Thai-ASEAN News Network.

However, there were free fire areas around the 2010 protests, in order for these to be effective I guess you would need live rounds.

All quotes from local language newspapers used in the TAN "Analysis" segment are covered by the same disclaimer.

There were no free fire areas at all. There were "Life (sic) Fire Zones" put in place after the 10th April.

The important part is that Suthep had denied that he signed an order authorising the army to break up the demonstration using live ammunition. He claimed that he had signed the order 3 days later. Unfortunately for him and whatever credibility Abhisit and CRES ever had was that Khao Sod proved that this was not true and he had signed off on the 10th April. When asked if he would sue Khao Sod newspaper for not telling the truth he replied he might do. He hasn't, and there is a very good reason for that.

[nurofiend]

I think that was the general idea, that nobody should know of such an order, or the date. Respect to the Khao Sod Newspaper, showing what investigative journalism should be about. Makes you wonder what else they lied about, this event, the 500 MIB, the anti-monarchy conspiracy mind map, nobody having being killed by the security forces, the 2nd version of Muramotos death, troops not being on the tracks above the Wat, troops not firing into the wat grounds from those tracks, troops only firing in self defence, the red shirt military training ground in Cambodia, the 11 man Chiang Mai Bomber squad, etc.

Makes you wonder what else is lied about, the grenade attack on April 10th killing a colonel and staff, the 60+ grenade attacks, the grenade wounding the Canadian journalist and two soldiers May 19th with our local reporter NN running for his life, the Thai lady killed on April 22nd at BTS Saladaeng, k. Arisman telling to bring empty bottles to be filled in Bangkok, k. Nattawut saying 'it's on me, I take the responsebility, k. Jatuporn willing to shed his blood, but not today. Plus of course the tape with k. Abhisit saying 'kill me some red shirts'

Makes you wonder for sure!

Gandalf: There was no lie in Pippin's eyes. A fool... but an honest fool, he remains

Has anybody from the PTP or the UDD lied about any of these incidents - I mean as in making a statement that they didn't do it but it has been proved that they did?

See, that is the major difference between your examples and mine. My examples are proof of where the Abhisit government have lied, outright. And you think that is OK, sweep it under the carpet, "it's the Reds wat dun it".

Honest fool I may be (if that was the implication behind your schoolboy taunt), but at least I am honest.

Pheu Thai and UDD leaders have never ever (as far as I know) acknowledged any wrongdoing in the March - May 2010 mayhem. It's all the fault of k. Abhisit, k. Suthep and their army. Too many video clips show so.

So in a topic about 'red shirts to mark a 2nd anniversary' and Ms. Thida talking about 'remembering red-shirt deaths', asking about truth and lying seems a bit cynical.

I was in Bangkok in those days, I passed BTS Saladaeng and RamaIV to UCL frequently, where were you?

My quote of Gandalf was inappropriate, but then it's not nice to call another poster 'just a fool'. I'm willing though to accept you're an honest, but probably misguided fool.

so what if you were in bangkok? how does that give you any more value on claims to whether these are truths or untruths because you 'passed by '?

asking someone "where were you" like you were in vietnam.. lol

and udd leaders did admit some wrongdoing, so 'as far as you know' is evidently not far enough

[rubl]

Makes you wonder what else is lied about, the grenade attack on April 10th killing a colonel and staff, the 60+ grenade attacks, the grenade wounding the Canadian journalist and two soldiers May 19th with our local reporter NN running for his life, the Thai lady killed on April 22nd at BTS Saladaeng, k. Arisman telling to bring empty bottles to be filled in Bangkok, k. Nattawut saying 'it's on me, I take the responsebility, k. Jatuporn willing to shed his blood, but not today. Plus of course the tape with k. Abhisit saying 'kill me some red shirts'

Makes you wonder for sure!

Gandalf: There was no lie in Pippin's eyes. A fool... but an honest fool, he remains

Has anybody from the PTP or the UDD lied about any of these incidents - I mean as in making a statement that they didn't do it but it has been proved that they did?

See, that is the major difference between your examples and mine. My examples are proof of where the Abhisit government have lied, outright. And you think that is OK, sweep it under the carpet, "it's the Reds wat dun it".

Honest fool I may be (if that was the implication behind your schoolboy taunt), but at least I am honest.

Pheu Thai and UDD leaders have never ever (as far as I know) acknowledged any wrongdoing in the March - May 2010 mayhem. It's all the fault of k. Abhisit, k. Suthep and their army. Too many video clips show so.

So in a topic about 'red shirts to mark a 2nd anniversary' and Ms. Thida talking about 'remembering red-shirt deaths', asking about truth and lying seems a bit cynical.

I was in Bangkok in those days, I passed BTS Saladaeng and RamaIV to UCL frequently, where were you?

My quote of Gandalf was inappropriate, but then it's not nice to call another poster 'just a fool'. I'm willing though to accept you're an honest, but probably misguided fool.

so what if you were in bangkok? how does that give you any more value on claims to whether these are truths or untruths because you 'passed by '?

asking someone "where were you" like you were in vietnam.. lol

and udd leaders did admit some wrongdoing, so 'as far as you know' is evidently not far enough

If some UDD leaders admitting 'some' wrongdoing I must have missed it, apart from maybe some k. Veera M. statements. Please be so kind as to elaborate on what has been admitted.

Me being in Bangkok, or even passing the Bamboo Wall frequently gives me slightly more insight in the state-of-mind of protesters than some who didn't see, hear and 'feel' it with their own eyes. Our local reporter NN came to BTS Saladaeng a bit after the grenade attack, I passed there a few hours before (luckily). Makes me prejudiced for sure!

Anyway, 2nd anniversary, remember red-shirt deaths, ignore the others which for April 10th includes Mr. Muramoto and a Colonel with staff. Innocent till proven guilty and blaming k. Abhisit.

[phiphidon]

I think that was the general idea, that nobody should know of such an order, or the date. Respect to the Khao Sod Newspaper, showing what investigative journalism should be about. Makes you wonder what else they lied about, this event, the 500 MIB, the anti-monarchy conspiracy mind map, nobody having being killed by the security forces, the 2nd version of Muramotos death, troops not being on the tracks above the Wat, troops not firing into the wat grounds from those tracks, troops only firing in self defence, the red shirt military training ground in Cambodia, the 11 man Chiang Mai Bomber squad, etc.

Makes you wonder what else is lied about, the grenade attack on April 10th killing a colonel and staff, the 60+ grenade attacks, the grenade wounding the Canadian journalist and two soldiers May 19th with our local reporter NN running for his life, the Thai lady killed on April 22nd at BTS Saladaeng, k. Arisman telling to bring empty bottles to be filled in Bangkok, k. Nattawut saying 'it's on me, I take the responsebility, k. Jatuporn willing to shed his blood, but not today. Plus of course the tape with k. Abhisit saying 'kill me some red shirts'

Makes you wonder for sure!

Gandalf: There was no lie in Pippin's eyes. A fool... but an honest fool, he remains

Has anybody from the PTP or the UDD lied about any of these incidents - I mean as in making a statement that they didn't do it but it has been proved that they did?

See, that is the major difference between your examples and mine. My examples are proof of where the Abhisit government have lied, outright. And you think that is OK, sweep it under the carpet, "it's the Reds wat dun it".

Honest fool I may be (if that was the implication behind your schoolboy taunt), but at least I am honest.

Pheu Thai and UDD leaders have never ever (as far as I know) acknowledged any wrongdoing in the March - May 2010 mayhem. It's all the fault of k. Abhisit, k. Suthep and their army. Too many video clips show so.

So in a topic about 'red shirts to mark a 2nd anniversary' and Ms. Thida talking about 'remembering red-shirt deaths', asking about truth and lying seems a bit cynical.

I was in Bangkok in those days, I passed BTS Saladaeng and RamaIV to UCL frequently, where were you?

My quote of Gandalf was inappropriate, but then it's not nice to call another poster 'just a fool'. I'm willing though to accept you're an honest, but probably misguided fool.

You've done it twice so I'll just put you down as a rude dutchman.

I think asking about truth and lying are extremely important and hardly cynical when discussing the events of 2010 and/or the UDD commemorating the event/s. This forum has been filled with umpteen pages of misinformation from both sides but when I offer up examples of lying from the government in charge of dealing with those events you sweep them to one side as though it doesn't matter.

It does matter. These people have told you and more importantly, Thai Citizens, Lies. Lies to cover up what they don't want to get out.

That is why the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are still angry, that is why the democrats were voted out. Thais outside of Bangkok may (are) be derided by some of being unintelligent, just guars, but what they lack in formal education they more than make up with awareness. And the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are not all rice farmers as you well know, well you would if you moved outside of Bangkok. They are tired of being lied to. Don't you understand the importance of that?

[phiphidon]

If some UDD leaders admitting 'some' wrongdoing I must have missed it, apart from maybe some k. Veera M. statements. Please be so kind as to elaborate on what has been admitted.

Me being in Bangkok, or even passing the Bamboo Wall frequently gives me slightly more insight in the state-of-mind of protesters than some who didn't see, hear and 'feel' it with their own eyes. Our local reporter NN came to BTS Saladaeng a bit after the grenade attack, I passed there a few hours before (luckily). Makes me prejudiced for sure!

Anyway, 2nd anniversary, remember red-shirt deaths, ignore the others which for April 10th includes Mr. Muramoto and a Colonel with staff. Innocent till proven guilty and blaming k. Abhisit.

Just short note, I'll think you'll find that the CRES through the DSI were responsible for blaming the death of Mr.Muramoto on the red shirts having first concluded it was as a result of the army fire and finally concluding the original findings were correct some considerable time later, causing unneccessary suffering on his family and all to make it look as if the army were innocent. If Abhisit and co had acted in a reasonable manner at the start and not delayed every chance they could we would be a lot nearer to finding out the truth than we are and further down the road to reconciliation. Hardly the actions of fine upstanding men from my point of view. Obviously not yours.

[rubl]

You've done it twice so I'll just put you down as a rude dutchman.

I think asking about truth and lying are extremely important and hardly cynical when discussing the events of 2010 and/or the UDD commemorating the event/s. This forum has been filled with umpteen pages of misinformation from both sides but when I offer up examples of lying from the government in charge of dealing with those events you sweep them to one side as though it doesn't matter.

It does matter. These people have told you and more importantly, Thai Citizens, Lies. Lies to cover up what they don't want to get out.

That is why the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are still angry, that is why the democrats were voted out. Thais outside of Bangkok may (are) be derided by some of being unintelligent, just guars, but what they lack in formal education they more than make up with awareness. And the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are not all rice farmers as you well know, well you would if you moved outside of Bangkok. They are tired of being lied to. Don't you understand the importance of that?

Supporters of UDD and up-to-a-point Pheu Thai (they're not the same surely?) are still angry because their leaders keep on saying it's k. Abhisit's fault and with some stupid statements early on the then government made it easy. It's not about lies, or coverup, it's all about blaming one side because 'obviously' the other side is blemish-free, snow-white, not our fault. Don't you understand the importance of that? Don't you see that reconcilliation works BOTH ways?

Ms. Thida said the activity to mark April 10th is to remember the red-shirt deaths. Fine, ignore the Japanese reporter, PM Yingluck already 'restored' confidence in Thailand on her trip to Japan, delivering a hand-written letter of condolence to the Japanese MoF for forwarding. Ignore the grenade attack killing a colonel and staff. Not proven anyway, probably just the government, like all those other 60+ grenades. Sure, we red-shirts are angry the government dropped grenades on non-red-shirts, very distastefull.

Signing off before I loose my temper, time to go sleep anyway.

Have fun

[nurofiend]

If some UDD leaders admitting 'some' wrongdoing I must have missed it, apart from maybe some k. Veera M. statements. Please be so kind as to elaborate on what has been admitted.

Me being in Bangkok, or even passing the Bamboo Wall frequently gives me slightly more insight in the state-of-mind of protesters than some who didn't see, hear and 'feel' it with their own eyes. Our local reporter NN came to BTS Saladaeng a bit after the grenade attack, I passed there a few hours before (luckily). Makes me prejudiced for sure!

Anyway, 2nd anniversary, remember red-shirt deaths, ignore the others which for April 10th includes Mr. Muramoto and a Colonel with staff. Innocent till proven guilty and blaming k. Abhisit.

no, i was talking about the apology from veera.. you said they didn't admit any wrongdoing and that is admitting wrongdoing.

i don't agree that seeing it with your own eyes while passing it, gives you more insight to their state of mind at all.

if you went and spoke with them and asked them about it, then you'd have more insight.

[rubl]

If some UDD leaders admitting 'some' wrongdoing I must have missed it, apart from maybe some k. Veera M. statements. Please be so kind as to elaborate on what has been admitted.

Me being in Bangkok, or even passing the Bamboo Wall frequently gives me slightly more insight in the state-of-mind of protesters than some who didn't see, hear and 'feel' it with their own eyes. Our local reporter NN came to BTS Saladaeng a bit after the grenade attack, I passed there a few hours before (luckily). Makes me prejudiced for sure!

Anyway, 2nd anniversary, remember red-shirt deaths, ignore the others which for April 10th includes Mr. Muramoto and a Colonel with staff. Innocent till proven guilty and blaming k. Abhisit.

Just short note, I'll think you'll find that the CRES through the DSI were responsible for blaming the death of Mr.Muramoto on the red shirts having first concluded it was as a result of the army fire and finally concluding the original findings were correct some considerable time later, causing unneccessary suffering on his family and all to make it look as if the army were innocent. If Abhisit and co had acted in a reasonable manner at the start and not delayed every chance they could we would be a lot nearer to finding out the truth than we are and further down the road to reconciliation. Hardly the actions of fine upstanding men from my point of view. Obviously not yours.

Just a short note:

- Even Dept. PM Pol. Captain Chalerm can't give us details on what really happened, although 'soon' we may know.

- Immediately after the event of April 10th k. Abhisit went on television offering condolences to relatives of ALL who were killed, INCLUDING protesters, Mr. Muramoto and army personel.

- None of the UDD leaders has indicated to be even a little bit guilty of the mayhem caused. It's all the others. Obviously the statements some are willing to accept of such fine standing gentlemen as k. Jatuporn, k. Nattawut, k. Arisman, Dr. weng and others.

- Have a fine April 10th anniversary, join us at Democracy Monument. Don't forget your shirt with 'people died here'

Edited March 22, 2012 by rubl

[waza]

If some UDD leaders admitting 'some' wrongdoing I must have missed it, apart from maybe some k. Veera M. statements. Please be so kind as to elaborate on what has been admitted.

Me being in Bangkok, or even passing the Bamboo Wall frequently gives me slightly more insight in the state-of-mind of protesters than some who didn't see, hear and 'feel' it with their own eyes. Our local reporter NN came to BTS Saladaeng a bit after the grenade attack, I passed there a few hours before (luckily). Makes me prejudiced for sure!

Anyway, 2nd anniversary, remember red-shirt deaths, ignore the others which for April 10th includes Mr. Muramoto and a Colonel with staff. Innocent till proven guilty and blaming k. Abhisit.

Just short note, I'll think you'll find that the CRES through the DSI were responsible for blaming the death of Mr.Muramoto on the red shirts having first concluded it was as a result of the army fire and finally concluding the original findings were correct some considerable time later, causing unneccessary suffering on his family and all to make it look as if the army were innocent. If Abhisit and co had acted in a reasonable manner at the start and not delayed every chance they could we would be a lot nearer to finding out the truth than we are and further down the road to reconciliation. Hardly the actions of fine upstanding men from my point of view. Obviously not yours.

Just a short note:

- Even Dept. PM Pol. Captain Chalerm can't give us details on what really happened, although 'soon' we may know.

- Immediately after the event of April 10th k. Abhisit went on television offering condolences to ALL who were killed, INCLUDING protesters, Mr. Muramoto and army personel.

- None of the UDD leaders has indicated to be even a little bit guilty of the mayhem caused. It's all the others. Obviously the statements some are willing to accept of such fine standing gentlemen as k. Jatuporn, k. Nattawut, k. Arisman, Dr. weng and others.

- Have a fine April 10th anniversary, join us at Democracy Monument. Don't forget your shirt with 'people died here'

It will be interesting to see how many attend this and how many travel to Laos to be with Thaksin, maybe the real red shirts will do both.

[rubl]

If some UDD leaders admitting 'some' wrongdoing I must have missed it, apart from maybe some k. Veera M. statements. Please be so kind as to elaborate on what has been admitted.

Me being in Bangkok, or even passing the Bamboo Wall frequently gives me slightly more insight in the state-of-mind of protesters than some who didn't see, hear and 'feel' it with their own eyes. Our local reporter NN came to BTS Saladaeng a bit after the grenade attack, I passed there a few hours before (luckily). Makes me prejudiced for sure!

Anyway, 2nd anniversary, remember red-shirt deaths, ignore the others which for April 10th includes Mr. Muramoto and a Colonel with staff. Innocent till proven guilty and blaming k. Abhisit.

no, i was talking about the apology from veera.. you said they didn't admit any wrongdoing and that is admitting wrongdoing.

i don't agree that seeing it with your own eyes while passing it, gives you more insight to their state of mind at all.

if you went and spoke with them and asked them about it, then you'd have more insight.

K. Veera, yes as I mentioned. Maybe the only honorable amongst the UDD leaders. Some others are enjoying parliamentary immunity and 'know nothing' except about possible coups and other types of conspiracy. The apology of k. Veera was somewhat vague if I remember correctly, the others keep on blaming k. Abhisit c.s.

Wearing a pink shirt I hardly felt like hopping over to the other side to have a chat, foreigners were also discouraged to interfere. Even my office was closed for a week with my (Thai) boss telling me better to avoid the office area. So I can understand the anger of the 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists', even on RamaIV the shoutcasts from the main stage near Ratchaprasong were loud and clear.

Anyway, join the remembrance of April 10th, pay respect to ALL death, buy your latest fashion red-shirt and a few tapes of k. Abhisit saying' kill me some'.

[nurofiend]

If some UDD leaders admitting 'some' wrongdoing I must have missed it, apart from maybe some k. Veera M. statements. Please be so kind as to elaborate on what has been admitted.

Me being in Bangkok, or even passing the Bamboo Wall frequently gives me slightly more insight in the state-of-mind of protesters than some who didn't see, hear and 'feel' it with their own eyes. Our local reporter NN came to BTS Saladaeng a bit after the grenade attack, I passed there a few hours before (luckily). Makes me prejudiced for sure!

Anyway, 2nd anniversary, remember red-shirt deaths, ignore the others which for April 10th includes Mr. Muramoto and a Colonel with staff. Innocent till proven guilty and blaming k. Abhisit.

no, i was talking about the apology from veera.. you said they didn't admit any wrongdoing and that is admitting wrongdoing.

i don't agree that seeing it with your own eyes while passing it, gives you more insight to their state of mind at all.

if you went and spoke with them and asked them about it, then you'd have more insight.

K. Veera, yes as I mentioned. Maybe the only honorable amongst the UDD leaders. Some others are enjoying parliamentary immunity and 'know nothing' except about possible coups and other types of conspiracy. The apology of k. Veera was somewhat vague if I remember correctly, the others keep on blaming k. Abhisit c.s.

Wearing a pink shirt I hardly felt like hopping over to the other side to have a chat, foreigners were also discouraged to interfere. Even my office was closed for a week with my (Thai) boss telling me better to avoid the office area. So I can understand the anger of the 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists', even on RamaIV the shoutcasts from the main stage near Ratchaprasong were loud and clear.

Anyway, join the remembrance of April 10th, pay respect to ALL death, buy your latest fashion red-shirt and a few tapes of k. Abhisit saying' kill me some'.

yes, veera.. as you mentioned.. in the next post after previously saying that they didn't admit any wrongdoing

Anyway, no.

edit: actually it was weng who i was referring to, did veera apologize too?

Edited March 22, 2012 by nurofiend

[rubl]

If some UDD leaders admitting 'some' wrongdoing I must have missed it, apart from maybe some k. Veera M. statements. Please be so kind as to elaborate on what has been admitted.

Me being in Bangkok, or even passing the Bamboo Wall frequently gives me slightly more insight in the state-of-mind of protesters than some who didn't see, hear and 'feel' it with their own eyes. Our local reporter NN came to BTS Saladaeng a bit after the grenade attack, I passed there a few hours before (luckily). Makes me prejudiced for sure!

Anyway, 2nd anniversary, remember red-shirt deaths, ignore the others which for April 10th includes Mr. Muramoto and a Colonel with staff. Innocent till proven guilty and blaming k. Abhisit.

no, i was talking about the apology from veera.. you said they didn't admit any wrongdoing and that is admitting wrongdoing.

i don't agree that seeing it with your own eyes while passing it, gives you more insight to their state of mind at all.

if you went and spoke with them and asked them about it, then you'd have more insight.

K. Veera, yes as I mentioned. Maybe the only honorable amongst the UDD leaders. Some others are enjoying parliamentary immunity and 'know nothing' except about possible coups and other types of conspiracy. The apology of k. Veera was somewhat vague if I remember correctly, the others keep on blaming k. Abhisit c.s.

Wearing a pink shirt I hardly felt like hopping over to the other side to have a chat, foreigners were also discouraged to interfere. Even my office was closed for a week with my (Thai) boss telling me better to avoid the office area. So I can understand the anger of the 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists', even on RamaIV the shoutcasts from the main stage near Ratchaprasong were loud and clear.

Anyway, join the remembrance of April 10th, pay respect to ALL death, buy your latest fashion red-shirt and a few tapes of k. Abhisit saying' kill me some'.

yes, veera.. as you mentioned.. in the next post after previously saying that they didn't admit any wrongdoing

Anyway, no.

edit: actually it was weng who i was referring to, did veera apologize too?

I corrected myself, although to some k. Veera M. isn't really a UDD leader anymore and some are wondering if he still has a red shirt.

Dr. weng apologize once regarding the storming of Chulalongkorn Hospital, bad for international publicity I guess:

""On behalf of all leaders, I apologise to the public and Chulalongkorn Hospital for the incident," Red leader Weng Tojirakarn said. "The situation got out of control.

"It is not our policy to obstruct hospital operations.""

""We truly apologise. That should not have happened and we don't approve of it," said Weng Tojirakarn, a protest leader.

Weng acknowledged some red shirts have a "cowboy attitude" that presents an image problem for the movement, which is already struggling to get support from middle-class Bangkok."

Anyway, April 10th, remember ALL who died that day two years ago !

[phiphidon]

You've done it twice so I'll just put you down as a rude dutchman.

I think asking about truth and lying are extremely important and hardly cynical when discussing the events of 2010 and/or the UDD commemorating the event/s. This forum has been filled with umpteen pages of misinformation from both sides but when I offer up examples of lying from the government in charge of dealing with those events you sweep them to one side as though it doesn't matter.

It does matter. These people have told you and more importantly, Thai Citizens, Lies. Lies to cover up what they don't want to get out.

That is why the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are still angry, that is why the democrats were voted out. Thais outside of Bangkok may (are) be derided by some of being unintelligent, just guars, but what they lack in formal education they more than make up with awareness. And the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are not all rice farmers as you well know, well you would if you moved outside of Bangkok. They are tired of being lied to. Don't you understand the importance of that?

Supporters of UDD and up-to-a-point Pheu Thai (they're not the same surely?) are still angry because their leaders keep on saying it's k. Abhisit's fault and with some stupid statements early on the then government made it easy. It's not about lies, or coverup, it's all about blaming one side because 'obviously' the other side is blemish-free, snow-white, not our fault. Don't you understand the importance of that? Don't you see that reconcilliation works BOTH ways?

Ms. Thida said the activity to mark April 10th is to remember the red-shirt deaths. Fine, ignore the Japanese reporter, PM Yingluck already 'restored' confidence in Thailand on her trip to Japan, delivering a hand-written letter of condolence to the Japanese MoF for forwarding. Ignore the grenade attack killing a colonel and staff. Not proven anyway, probably just the government, like all those other 60+ grenades. Sure, we red-shirts are angry the government dropped grenades on non-red-shirts, very distastefull.

Signing off before I loose my temper, time to go sleep anyway.

Have fun

I understand that reconcilliation works both ways. If the upstanding Abhisit had any allusions to following that concept he he would have set up an investigative committee that had the power (and legal backup) to "sub-poena" ALL parties to the conflict to find out the truth. He didn't. Why was that, it was in his power to do so?

Yet again you sweep away the fact that the government lied with a "they made some stupid comments early on". BS. They lied, and often, and not just at the beginning. They were still doing it when they were out of government when they were still maintaining that Muramoto was killed by the Red Shirts. How can you trust people like that, though you obviously do?

[Nickymaster]

wow, ...

"flames of hate"

"redshits"

"ignorance and stupidity", & this gem,

"they suck"...

All in just 3 posts about an article on merit-making ceremonies to commemorate people who died in Thailand's worse political violence in 20 years...

Glad you guys aren't in charge of reconciliation.

Just be glad PT is right?

[rubl]

You've done it twice so I'll just put you down as a rude dutchman.

I think asking about truth and lying are extremely important and hardly cynical when discussing the events of 2010 and/or the UDD commemorating the event/s. This forum has been filled with umpteen pages of misinformation from both sides but when I offer up examples of lying from the government in charge of dealing with those events you sweep them to one side as though it doesn't matter.

It does matter. These people have told you and more importantly, Thai Citizens, Lies. Lies to cover up what they don't want to get out.

That is why the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are still angry, that is why the democrats were voted out. Thais outside of Bangkok may (are) be derided by some of being unintelligent, just guars, but what they lack in formal education they more than make up with awareness. And the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are not all rice farmers as you well know, well you would if you moved outside of Bangkok. They are tired of being lied to. Don't you understand the importance of that?

Supporters of UDD and up-to-a-point Pheu Thai (they're not the same surely?) are still angry because their leaders keep on saying it's k. Abhisit's fault and with some stupid statements early on the then government made it easy. It's not about lies, or coverup, it's all about blaming one side because 'obviously' the other side is blemish-free, snow-white, not our fault. Don't you understand the importance of that? Don't you see that reconcilliation works BOTH ways?

Ms. Thida said the activity to mark April 10th is to remember the red-shirt deaths. Fine, ignore the Japanese reporter, PM Yingluck already 'restored' confidence in Thailand on her trip to Japan, delivering a hand-written letter of condolence to the Japanese MoF for forwarding. Ignore the grenade attack killing a colonel and staff. Not proven anyway, probably just the government, like all those other 60+ grenades. Sure, we red-shirts are angry the government dropped grenades on non-red-shirts, very distastefull.

Signing off before I loose my temper, time to go sleep anyway.

Have fun

I understand that reconcilliation works both ways. If the upstanding Abhisit had any allusions to following that concept he he would have set up an investigative committee that had the power (and legal backup) to "sub-poena" ALL parties to the conflict to find out the truth. He didn't. Why was that, it was in his power to do so?

Yet again you sweep away the fact that the government lied with a "they made some stupid comments early on". BS. They lied, and often, and not just at the beginning. They were still doing it when they were out of government when they were still maintaining that Muramoto was killed by the Red Shirts. How can you trust people like that, though you obviously do?

The government lied, they lied! I don't want to sound too cynical, but show me a government that didn't lie and I think you've found Utopia. Yes the government lied.

By stressing 'the government lied' you also studiously ignore that the other party in the mayhem 'ignores their part', "we're innocent", "we were provoked", "the governmend did it". Yeah for reconciliation and accusing the others.

The previous government could have set up a commission with more power, but that's not so easy with Thai history and mentality. Just a fact finding commission seems a good start one way or another. Mind you the current government didn't see fit to change anything in this. Now don't start telling me it's because they're afraid of the Army. Much more likely they're afraid of what may become known of their part in the mayhem.

Back to the topic, remember the red-shirs who died on April 10th, 2010; especially don't forget the Japanese reporter Mr. Muramoto who was shot and an Army colonel and five/six staff who got a grenade lobbed on them.

BTW I may have been wrong before, not about the fool, but about the 'honest' part.

IMHO

[tlansford]

You've done it twice so I'll just put you down as a rude dutchman.

I think asking about truth and lying are extremely important and hardly cynical when discussing the events of 2010 and/or the UDD commemorating the event/s. This forum has been filled with umpteen pages of misinformation from both sides but when I offer up examples of lying from the government in charge of dealing with those events you sweep them to one side as though it doesn't matter.

It does matter. These people have told you and more importantly, Thai Citizens, Lies. Lies to cover up what they don't want to get out.

That is why the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are still angry, that is why the democrats were voted out. Thais outside of Bangkok may (are) be derided by some of being unintelligent, just guars, but what they lack in formal education they more than make up with awareness. And the supporters of the UDD and/or the PTP are not all rice farmers as you well know, well you would if you moved outside of Bangkok. They are tired of being lied to. Don't you understand the importance of that?

Supporters of UDD and up-to-a-point Pheu Thai (they're not the same surely?) are still angry because their leaders keep on saying it's k. Abhisit's fault and with some stupid statements early on the then government made it easy. It's not about lies, or coverup, it's all about blaming one side because 'obviously' the other side is blemish-free, snow-white, not our fault. Don't you understand the importance of that? Don't you see that reconcilliation works BOTH ways?

Ms. Thida said the activity to mark April 10th is to remember the red-shirt deaths. Fine, ignore the Japanese reporter, PM Yingluck already 'restored' confidence in Thailand on her trip to Japan, delivering a hand-written letter of condolence to the Japanese MoF for forwarding. Ignore the grenade attack killing a colonel and staff. Not proven anyway, probably just the government, like all those other 60+ grenades. Sure, we red-shirts are angry the government dropped grenades on non-red-shirts, very distastefull.

Signing off before I loose my temper, time to go sleep anyway.

Have fun

I understand that reconcilliation works both ways. If the upstanding Abhisit had any allusions to following that concept he he would have set up an investigative committee that had the power (and legal backup) to "sub-poena" ALL parties to the conflict to find out the truth. He didn't. Why was that, it was in his power to do so?

Yet again you sweep away the fact that the government lied with a "they made some stupid comments early on". BS. They lied, and often, and not just at the beginning. They were still doing it when they were out of government when they were still maintaining that Muramoto was killed by the Red Shirts. How can you trust people like that, though you obviously do?

The government lied, they lied! I don't want to sound too cynical, but show me a government that didn't lie and I think you've found Utopia. Yes the government lied.

By stressing 'the government lied' you also studiously ignore that the other party in the mayhem 'ignores their part', "we're innocent", "we were provoked", "the governmend did it". Yeah for reconciliation and accusing the others.

The previous government could have set up a commission with more power, but that's not so easy with Thai history and mentality. Just a fact finding commission seems a good start one way or another. Mind you the current government didn't see fit to change anything in this. Now don't start telling me it's because they're afraid of the Army. Much more likely they're afraid of what may become known of their part in the mayhem.

Back to the topic, remember the red-shirs who died on April 10th, 2010; especially don't forget the Japanese reporter Mr. Muramoto who was shot and an Army colonel and five/six staff who got a grenade lobbed on them.

BTW I may have been wrong before, not about the fool, but about the 'honest' part.

IMHO

Hi Rubl, 2 things for you.

I agree with you that the UDD should have a ceremony that honors all the people who were killed and injured. They did the same thing last year, and the reports that I found just said that they honored the dead, it did not specify only red shirts, so I do not know what they did last year. But in any case, honoring all the victims would be the right thing to do.

And phiphidon, like you, is IMO probably one of the most honest posters on the forum. Not only is he consistent with his beliefs and posting, but he is also honest enough to admit his mistakes. Not all the posters here will do that.

Have a good night

[rubl]

Supporters of UDD and up-to-a-point Pheu Thai (they're not the same surely?) are still angry because their leaders keep on saying it's k. Abhisit's fault and with some stupid statements early on the then government made it easy. It's not about lies, or coverup, it's all about blaming one side because 'obviously' the other side is blemish-free, snow-white, not our fault. Don't you understand the importance of that? Don't you see that reconcilliation works BOTH ways?

Ms. Thida said the activity to mark April 10th is to remember the red-shirt deaths. Fine, ignore the Japanese reporter, PM Yingluck already 'restored' confidence in Thailand on her trip to Japan, delivering a hand-written letter of condolence to the Japanese MoF for forwarding. Ignore the grenade attack killing a colonel and staff. Not proven anyway, probably just the government, like all those other 60+ grenades. Sure, we red-shirts are angry the government dropped grenades on non-red-shirts, very distastefull.

Signing off before I loose my temper, time to go sleep anyway.

Have fun

I understand that reconcilliation works both ways. If the upstanding Abhisit had any allusions to following that concept he he would have set up an investigative committee that had the power (and legal backup) to "sub-poena" ALL parties to the conflict to find out the truth. He didn't. Why was that, it was in his power to do so?

Yet again you sweep away the fact that the government lied with a "they made some stupid comments early on". BS. They lied, and often, and not just at the beginning. They were still doing it when they were out of government when they were still maintaining that Muramoto was killed by the Red Shirts. How can you trust people like that, though you obviously do?

The government lied, they lied! I don't want to sound too cynical, but show me a government that didn't lie and I think you've found Utopia. Yes the government lied.

By stressing 'the government lied' you also studiously ignore that the other party in the mayhem 'ignores their part', "we're innocent", "we were provoked", "the governmend did it". Yeah for reconciliation and accusing the others.

The previous government could have set up a commission with more power, but that's not so easy with Thai history and mentality. Just a fact finding commission seems a good start one way or another. Mind you the current government didn't see fit to change anything in this. Now don't start telling me it's because they're afraid of the Army. Much more likely they're afraid of what may become known of their part in the mayhem.

Back to the topic, remember the red-shirs who died on April 10th, 2010; especially don't forget the Japanese reporter Mr. Muramoto who was shot and an Army colonel and five/six staff who got a grenade lobbed on them.

BTW I may have been wrong before, not about the fool, but about the 'honest' part.

IMHO

Hi Rubl, 2 things for you.

I agree with you that the UDD should have a ceremony that honors all the people who were killed and injured. They did the same thing last year, and the reports that I found just said that they honored the dead, it did not specify only red shirts, so I do not know what they did last year. But in any case, honoring all the victims would be the right thing to do.

And phiphidon, like you, is IMO probably one of the most honest posters on the forum. Not only is he consistent with his beliefs and posting, but he is also honest enough to admit his mistakes. Not all the posters here will do that.

Have a good night

Tom, I'm not going to search for it tonight, but in the past any rememberance party of the UDD concerned 'their dead'. When it says 'people died here', they mean 'our people died here'.

As for PPD, I still remember some recent conversation where he first wrote 'why complain before a proposal is accepted' changing to something less damaging when I remarked on it. Both PPD and I go a long way. Personally I think I'm more honest, but then I'm probably a wee bit prejudiced as far as that is concerned.

Have a good night, tomorow we have another day

(edit: add: looking at some clips now; "Arianespace's Ariane 5 delivers another ATV for International Space Station servicing". Way to go!)

Edited March 23, 2012 by rubl

[phiphidon]

Hi Rubl, 2 things for you.

I agree with you that the UDD should have a ceremony that honors all the people who were killed and injured. They did the same thing last year, and the reports that I found just said that they honored the dead, it did not specify only red shirts, so I do not know what they did last year. But in any case, honoring all the victims would be the right thing to do.

And phiphidon, like you, is IMO probably one of the most honest posters on the forum. Not only is he consistent with his beliefs and posting, but he is also honest enough to admit his mistakes. Not all the posters here will do that.

Have a good night

Tom, I'm not going to search for it tonight, but in the past any rememberance party of the UDD concerned 'their dead'. When it says 'people died here', they mean 'our people died here'.

As for PPD, I still remember some recent conversation where he first wrote 'why complain before a proposal is accepted' changing to something less damaging when I remarked on it. Both PPD and I go a long way. Personally I think I'm more honest, but then I'm probably a wee bit prejudiced as far as that is concerned.

Have a good night, tomorow we have another day

(edit: add: looking at some clips now; "Arianespace's Ariane 5 delivers another ATV for International Space Station servicing". Way to go!)

"As for PPD, I still remember some recent conversation where he first wrote 'why complain before a proposal is accepted' changing to something less damaging when I remarked on it."

Please provide the post where I said that and then changed it to something less damaging after your remark. I will apologise if that is the case but I know that isn't. And don't bs me with saying the onus is on me to find it - you make public accusations doubting my honesty, you do the work.

[rubl]

Hi Rubl, 2 things for you.

I agree with you that the UDD should have a ceremony that honors all the people who were killed and injured. They did the same thing last year, and the reports that I found just said that they honored the dead, it did not specify only red shirts, so I do not know what they did last year. But in any case, honoring all the victims would be the right thing to do.

And phiphidon, like you, is IMO probably one of the most honest posters on the forum. Not only is he consistent with his beliefs and posting, but he is also honest enough to admit his mistakes. Not all the posters here will do that.

Have a good night

Tom, I'm not going to search for it tonight, but in the past any rememberance party of the UDD concerned 'their dead'. When it says 'people died here', they mean 'our people died here'.

As for PPD, I still remember some recent conversation where he first wrote 'why complain before a proposal is accepted' changing to something less damaging when I remarked on it. Both PPD and I go a long way. Personally I think I'm more honest, but then I'm probably a wee bit prejudiced as far as that is concerned.

Have a good night, tomorow we have another day

(edit: add: looking at some clips now; "Arianespace's Ariane 5 delivers another ATV for International Space Station servicing". Way to go!)

"As for PPD, I still remember some recent conversation where he first wrote 'why complain before a proposal is accepted' changing to something less damaging when I remarked on it."

Please provide the post where I said that and then changed it to something less damaging after your remark. I will apologise if that is the case but I know that isn't. And don't bs me with saying the onus is on me to find it - you make public accusations doubting my honesty, you do the work.

When you didn't like my "Yes, love. No, love. Whatever, love", I wrote a proper reply. Now remember?

If not, no problem. Here's the link:

Now of course you can complain about me saying 'accepted' rather then 'decided', but I hadn't checked for a precise quotation yet. Only now because you asked for it

First: "They're arguing about the post coup AEC case proposals now even though they haven't been decided"

After: "How can you argue with a statement/idea/proposal if that statement/idea/proposal hasn't even been formulated."

QED, up yours, and all that.

[phiphidon]

"As for PPD, I still remember some recent conversation where he first wrote 'why complain before a proposal is accepted' changing to something less damaging when I remarked on it."

Please provide the post where I said that and then changed it to something less damaging after your remark. I will apologise if that is the case but I know that isn't. And don't bs me with saying the onus is on me to find it - you make public accusations doubting my honesty, you do the work.

When you didn't like my "Yes, love. No, love. Whatever, love", I wrote a proper reply. Now remember?

If not, no problem. Here's the link:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__5118787

Now of course you can complain about me saying 'accepted' rather then 'decided', but I hadn't checked for a precise quotation yet. Only now because you asked for it

First: "They're arguing about the post coup AEC case proposals now even though they haven't been decided"

After: "How can you argue with a statement/idea/proposal if that statement/idea/proposal hasn't even been formulated."

QED, up yours, and all that.

From your link "My dear chap, as Englishman you should know the difference between 'proposals not decided' and 'proposals not formulated'.

I do, it's English. The only difference between the two statements is "decided" in statement 1, and the use of "formulated" in statement 2 -

decided - in no way uncertain or ambiguous

formulate - to express in precise form

In other words they mean the same thing imo and most of the English speaking worlds'.

If you are trying to say decided means voted on, agreed or something like that you are wrong, I'm afraid. If you wanted to convey that meaning you would substitute "decided" with "decided upon". Here endeth the lesson with no "up yours" or similar triumphant exclamations.

Despite the bastardisation of English by the Americans, English in its proper form still exists and I use it.

Yours, PhiPhi "Honest" John

[phiphidon]

"As for PPD, I still remember some recent conversation where he first wrote 'why complain before a proposal is accepted' changing to something less damaging when I remarked on it."

Please provide the post where I said that and then changed it to something less damaging after your remark. I will apologise if that is the case but I know that isn't. And don't bs me with saying the onus is on me to find it - you make public accusations doubting my honesty, you do the work.

When you didn't like my "Yes, love. No, love. Whatever, love", I wrote a proper reply. Now remember?

If not, no problem. Here's the link:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__5118787

Now of course you can complain about me saying 'accepted' rather then 'decided', but I hadn't checked for a precise quotation yet. Only now because you asked for it

First: "They're arguing about the post coup AEC case proposals now even though they haven't been decided"

After: "How can you argue with a statement/idea/proposal if that statement/idea/proposal hasn't even been formulated."

QED, up yours, and all that.

From your link "My dear chap, as Englishman you should know the difference between 'proposals not decided' and 'proposals not formulated'.

I do, it's English. The only difference between the two statements is "decided" in statement 1, and the use of "formulated" in statement 2 -

decided - in no way uncertain or ambiguous

formulate - to express in precise form

In other words they mean the same thing imo and most of the English speaking worlds'.

If you are trying to say decided means voted on, agreed or something like that you are wrong, I'm afraid. If you wanted to convey that meaning you would substitute "decided" with "decided upon". Here endeth the lesson with no "up yours" or similar triumphant exclamations.

Despite the bastardisation of English by the Americans, English in its proper form still exists and I use it.

Yours, PhiPhi "Honest" John

So, Rubl, I've given you a few days to think it over, any chance of a response, or dare I say it, an apology?

[rubl]

"As for PPD, I still remember some recent conversation where he first wrote 'why complain before a proposal is accepted' changing to something less damaging when I remarked on it."

Please provide the post where I said that and then changed it to something less damaging after your remark. I will apologise if that is the case but I know that isn't. And don't bs me with saying the onus is on me to find it - you make public accusations doubting my honesty, you do the work.

When you didn't like my "Yes, love. No, love. Whatever, love", I wrote a proper reply. Now remember?

If not, no problem. Here's the link:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__5118787

Now of course you can complain about me saying 'accepted' rather then 'decided', but I hadn't checked for a precise quotation yet. Only now because you asked for it

First: "They're arguing about the post coup AEC case proposals now even though they haven't been decided"

After: "How can you argue with a statement/idea/proposal if that statement/idea/proposal hasn't even been formulated."

QED, up yours, and all that.

From your link "My dear chap, as Englishman you should know the difference between 'proposals not decided' and 'proposals not formulated'.

I do, it's English. The only difference between the two statements is "decided" in statement 1, and the use of "formulated" in statement 2 -

decided - in no way uncertain or ambiguous

formulate - to express in precise form

In other words they mean the same thing imo and most of the English speaking worlds'.

If you are trying to say decided means voted on, agreed or something like that you are wrong, I'm afraid. If you wanted to convey that meaning you would substitute "decided" with "decided upon". Here endeth the lesson with no "up yours" or similar triumphant exclamations.

Despite the bastardisation of English by the Americans, English in its proper form still exists and I use it.

Yours, PhiPhi "Honest" John

So, Rubl, I've given you a few days to think it over, any chance of a response, or dare I say it, an apology?

This can be interpreted as a baiting question, dear John.

You wrote "They're arguing about the post coup AEC case proposals now even though they haven't been decided". In other words, wait till it's decided and loose the opportunity to participate and collaborate in what others want to decide or formulate.

No need to respond, this subject can be considered closed.

Uncle rubl