Corruption In Thailand

samran · March 18, 2012

I find it sickening that people here defend corruption in Thailand, passing it off as the easy way out of a traffic offence, cheap payments to facilitate business and a general 'oiling of the wheels' that makes their personal life easier.
But is it also the means by which Thai people are robbed of their homes, land, savings, the means by which ordinary Thai people are f'cked over on a daily basis, the reason schools wind up with no books, funds allocated to public medicine wind up being used to buy ingredients for the narcotics industry, why people get murdered for being in the way and and why murderers don't get charged or convicted because they pay.

That those defending corruption are also prominent amongst the members of TV who are so often stating how much they love Thailand, how much they love the Thai people is doubly sickening.

Quite clearly they don't give a sh1t about the real impacts of corruption and the real impact it has on the lives of real Thai people, so long as Jack is OK.

Nice.

Never paid off a traffic cop, then, matey?

Neither have I to be honest. Driving on Thai roads since the mid 90's.

How to stop corruption? For day to day living my rule is: Don't pay the bribe. Don't put yourself in a position where you might be asked for one. It sounds boring, but follow the rules like you would back home, and no opportunity will open itself up.

If you've been asked for one due to a traffic infringement, ask for a ticket. If you've been asked for a bribe when you've done nothing wrong, also ask for a ticket. Amazing how quickly the imagined infringement goes away!

More broadly, I've had my fair share of interactions with civil servants over time than most have here without having to pay a satang. I own and run my own business, argued with immigration officers who didn't want to stamp my passport, gotten out of military service, gotten licenses, ID cards and tabieen baans, applied for my wife's Thai citizenship on top of the paperwork which is needed to go with that.

Most of the time it is all about being patient and having your ducks lined up in a row. Know the rules and be prepared to stick up for your rights. A lesson, some would find ironic, I learned from my more well to do Thai family. They simply don't put up with shit. It is partly their perceived entitlement, but having that air of calm confidence goes a long way in Thailand.

My experience is those who go for the bribe are too lazy to be prepared or are too easily bullied.

Sounds naive? Sure, but it works.

At the top end, yes, there is plenty there. I've seen it in action, and the result of it I have to deal with substandard infrastructure and lax enforcement. But one battle at a time.

Credit where credit is due, in the 70's and 80,s you had to pay a bribe to get your telephone line installed. My mother had to pay a bribe to get her first passport in the 60's. All that is changed and for the most part day to day living is bribe free, if you want it to be. In some cases (Thai passports) the service can even be world class.

Edited March 18, 2012 by samran

wana · March 18, 2012

I can't believe how many people state that "we can not change" or "thats the way it always been". Civilization of the world is a process

that is slowly maturing and changing peoples behavior. Of course we can enforce a change made by the Thai people.

Firstly ,you cant "enforce" anything ,you are a guest ,perhaps even an unwanted one

its unclear how many thais think farangs should drink beer and shag young girls Retire here but probably most would vote against it if they are not working in a touristy kind of place or getting some profit from it

we also would be quickly stepped on like the roaches we are in the bigger picture if we tried to put an end to corruption in thailand

the very idea that a farang could take money out of the pockets of chiefs of police and government would simply not be tolerated by thais system ,it would just ensure the farang was removed /deported ./fed to crocodiles etc ASAP

the scheming ways go right to the top ,billions gets siphoned out of every major government project and work is always given to contractors who can pay a healthy backhander to a minister

thats just the way the wheels turn ,dont hate the player ,hate the game

Sorry for my bad english, the word I wanted to use was not "enforced" but "affect", that's makes a difference.

I did not mean that we (immigrants) should go out as a group and complain on the system. What I ment was that we as individuals can refuse to pay brines and write when we have a chance express out opinion against this system. Believe it or not, a lot of Thais look up to westernes and listen to what we have to say (if a logical and sober opinion)

Bad things are not impossible to change and it is individuals who make the change.

ive had hard headed friends that refused to pay bribes before ,they dont normally last long in thailand

this attitiude of " i know the law and my rights and you can <snip> off " should be left on the plane when landing

it just doesnt work in thailand

from what ive seen ,the harder you push the police ,the harder they will push back and the more serious the matter will get

100 thb at the side of the road could change to epic proportions if you piss them off

they run this show ,we do not ,and they will prove that to you if you test them !

Edited March 22, 2012 by metisdead

GuestHouse · March 18, 2012

Adding to what Samaran has said, if you are following the rules you almost certainly do not have to pay a bribe.

If you are breaking the rules or your business is breaking the rules and you wish to continue breaking the rules then you are opening the door to corruption - but then your own actions are no worse than the person you are paying off.

As I say above.... so long as Jack is OK.

Naam · March 19, 2012

Can anyone tell me how we can stop corruption in thailand?

some people call it corruption, others (like me) call it convenience. why should one stop something that is convenient?

Perhaps you would like to take the time to explain to my Thai mother in law it was 'convenient' that the drunk driver who killed her son was able to pay off the police to avoid any charges against himself.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

there is corruption and there is corruption. a huge big difference exists between these two. i find it extremely convenient to pay an "agent" for handling a variety of jobs which i find a hassle or hate to do them myself because i value my time much higher than the money i pay for a service or rather speeding up a procedure which does not hurt anyone (some people might disagree but i don't care).

i admit that the case of your mother-in-law is a sad one. but years in prison of the guilty party will not bring her son back.

IanForbes · March 19, 2012

Although I agree in principle with what GuestHouse said, I also agree with Naam in his last post. There are many degrees of corruption. For minor traffic offences where nobody was injured it just makes sense to pay a quick fine on the spot and get on with life. There is a very funny topic going on right now about certain "truths" in Thailand, and it explains why certain aspects of Thailand are never going to change. We don't live in a perfect world and there are too many things to get upset about if you let it bother you. I just accept what I can't change and revel in the many things that are marvellous about Thailand.

mackes · March 19, 2012

Although I agree in principle with what GuestHouse said, I also agree with Naam in his last post. There are many degrees of corruption. For minor traffic offences where nobody was injured it just makes sense to pay a quick fine on the spot and get on with life. There is a very funny topic going on right now about certain "truths" in Thailand, and it explains why certain aspects of Thailand are never going to change. We don't live in a perfect world and there are too many things to get upset about if you let it bother you. I just accept what I can't change and revel in the many things that are marvellous about Thailand.

What is a "minor" traffic offense?

Speeding with +10 or +50 or +100?, crossing red light? Who decide?

The reason for rules is to prevent accident, this will not happen if you easily can get on with it.

I don't persist in that everything is black or white and that I never break the rules

but I think there should be no doubt about whats right or wrong.

The "it's OK as long as nothing happened" policy will lead right to hell.

Compare with the rules you make for your kids, is breaking OK if nothing happened?

thedude · March 19, 2012

Thai culture is based on a Patronage system. People collecting "bribes" generally feel this is a benefit or right accrued for having climbed to the appropriate level of influence and power. It has feudal roots. If it stops there, I think most of us would gladly accept it since we also benefit from the convenience. The people most disadvantaged are those at the bottom of the ladder, the poor, the less educated, those without a patron (many foreigners don't have access to a patron too, but most have enough money to circumvent daily problems).

The bigger problem is the lack of Justice. While this in some way is related to the patronage system, there are also deeper religious reasons. A Thai monk (Harvard trained theologian whose name escapes me now) pointed out that the Thai version of Buddhism over-emphasises the notion of Karma. When someone does something bad, society as a whole is more willing to look the other way and leave it to his Karma to take care of it in his next life. Life after all is a temporary passing phase in our spiritual journey. Furthemore, there is a belief that by giving alms, one is able to atone for one's deeds. The more serious the crime, the heavier one pays in alms to make up for the lost Karma.

The scholar monk pointed to the need to emphasise education on other Buddhist principles that place responsibility for the Self to act when something is wrong. It is hoped that proper religious education would engender more activism for social justice.

When we escalate this to a whole society, the feudal/patronage construct, religious beliefs and practices, and the patchwork manner in which Thais try to apply Law and Order (sometimes only superficially or half-heartedly to convince the world that Thailand is modern and progressive), we get this confused and conflicted mess. Will we see change in our lifetimes? I doubt it.

Edited March 19, 2012 by thedude

Sing_Sling · March 19, 2012

As was alluded to earlier, the whole system is based on corrupt practices and taht would be very difficult to eradicate . . . and the place would grind to a halt.

What's the incentive for a public servant to process his/her work if there is no baksheesh?

Cops? Who would want to become one with the low pay?

The middle class would grow and that's not a good thing for many people at the top as this brings with it education and emancipation.

The idea of working for the paycheck itself is not as ingrained as it should be and everyone expects to pay under the table to get something done - the irony if which is that as everyone pays the same amount of work is done anyway

Naam · March 20, 2012

And to all those who say 'pay them more and it will stop', No. It won't. They'll just think of it as a bonus.

Very disappointed, albeit not surprised, to see so many truly shallow posters on this forum. Do you seriously believe that when you hand over your 300 baht 'traffic violation fee', buy a measly cd etc it stops there? Next time, try to include the fact of human/wildlife trafficking to your thinking that there is a demarcation in just how far corruption is accepted as a concept.

And please don't drag First World countries into your arguments. It simply makes you look silly.

the silliest thing i read in this thread is "human/wildlife trafficking" in context/connection with paying "traffic violation fee".

perhaps next revelation "foreigner bribes cop on Sukhumvit, kills dozens of humpback whales in the South Atlantic and sends scores of Balinese teenagers into white slavery".

IanForbes · March 20, 2012

The simplest solution to prevent corruption in Thailand is for all those farang tourists, foreign expats and foreign businesses owners in Thailand to all go back to where they came from. Then we wouldn't have this discussion.

poanoi · March 20, 2012

That wouldnt prevent corruption at all so beats me why you even comment

wana · March 20, 2012

exactly ,ending our discussion of corruption will not end the actual corruption

corruption can exist and thrive without farang help

Edited March 20, 2012 by wana

StreetCowboy · March 20, 2012

The simplest solution to prevent corruption in Thailand is for all those farang tourists, foreign expats and foreign businesses owners in Thailand to all go back to where they came from. Then we wouldn't have this discussion.

I reckon a more elegant solution would be to put whoopee cushions on all the seats in the Thai parilament; I doubt it would be very effective, but it would be very entratining, and it would be equally effective in preventing future flooding, as well.

I reckon then we would stuggle to hold this conversation, particularly if we'd been drinking...

SC

IanForbes · March 20, 2012

That wouldnt prevent corruption at all so beats me why you even comment

Of course it wouldn't, but neither would anything ANY farang could do in Thailand. The system is too well entrenched to be fixable. You can accept it with a bitter taste in your mouth and just look on the bright side of what Thailand has to offer. I'm from Canada which has been voted as one of the best places in the world to live, but I can see it is turning into a nanny state with so many rules and laws that it's lost any sense of adventure. I wouldn't mind so much if our Justice System actually did anything positive, but all they do is rotate criminals off the street, through the courts and back out on the streets again. Good luck if you actually had an emergency and needed a policeman.

rgs2001uk · March 20, 2012

My experience is those who go for the bribe are too lazy to be prepared or are too easily bullied.

Dont agree with this.

I do a u-turn illegally, I know full well I have done wrong and know exactly what I am doing as I do it, I take my chances, some you win some you lose.

After completeing my illegal turn I am pulled over, I now have two choices, go through the correct procedure, and probably pay 500 baht, plus the time and effort to do things legally, or pay 100 baht and be on my way, for me its a no brainer, nothing to do with being lazy or easily bullied.

I was in the wrong, I know I was in the wrong, the policeman knows I was in the wrong, he knows I know i was in the wrong, I look on it as nothing more than playing the system.

I can go to my embassy for a residence certificate to renew my driving license, it will cost about 2,000 baht, go and apply today, return tomorrow to pick up said certificate.

Or I can go to my local immigration office, pay 200 baht to expedite a service, that saves me both time and money, and walk out the office with the required certificate.

I was neither bullied or too lazy, I chose the method that suited my circumstances.

Have to love the Asian way of doing things, the ability "to think outside the box".

In both examples, it wasnt a bribe, it was a way of, making a problem go away.

Please excuse my transliteration, I believe the Thai expression is, bun khun, help me to help you.

When in Rome etc etc.

poanoi · March 20, 2012

What a load of junk.

Thais disgust and hate the corrupt police more than anyone else,

at least those i know, they refuse to even go near them

mackes · March 21, 2012

My experience is those who go for the bribe are too lazy to be prepared or are too easily bullied.

Have to love the Asian way of doing things, the ability "to think outside the box".

In both examples, it wasnt a bribe, it was a way of, making a problem go away.

This is not "The Asian way", it is an abscess in the system and thanks to people like you it want go away!

StreetCowboy · March 21, 2012

My experience is those who go for the bribe are too lazy to be prepared or are too easily bullied.

Dont agree with this.

I do a u-turn illegally, I know full well I have done wrong and know exactly what I am doing as I do it, I take my chances, some you win some you lose.

After completeing my illegal turn I am pulled over, I now have two choices, go through the correct procedure, and probably pay 500 baht, plus the time and effort to do things legally, or pay 100 baht and be on my way, for me its a no brainer, nothing to do with being lazy or easily bullied.

I was in the wrong, I know I was in the wrong, the policeman knows I was in the wrong, he knows I know i was in the wrong, I look on it as nothing more than playing the system.

I can go to my embassy for a residence certificate to renew my driving license, it will cost about 2,000 baht, go and apply today, return tomorrow to pick up said certificate.

Or I can go to my local immigration office, pay 200 baht to expedite a service, that saves me both time and money, and walk out the office with the required certificate.

I was neither bullied or too lazy, I chose the method that suited my circumstances.

Have to love the Asian way of doing things, the ability "to think outside the box".

In both examples, it wasnt a bribe, it was a way of, making a problem go away.

Please excuse my transliteration, I believe the Thai expression is, bun khun, help me to help you.

When in Rome etc etc.

As I recall, Rome when Rome burnt, the ruling authorities treated it as seriously as the Santika...

Mosha · March 21, 2012

I like corruption more than western high tax rate...

Corruption is only a problem when safety is involved...

I'm sure you'll like it when some hi-so crashes into the taxi carrying your wife and child, killing them both. He will pay off the cops, and "mai pen lai, just some "falang" tourist killed," nothing will be done and the driver will not be punished in any way.

Wouldn't matter who the hi so killed. The going rate a few years back was 100,000 per victim to the family and again to the police. A couple of years ago 2 kids were mown down. This driver would have been called a serial killer in the west. My wife said his car was unlucky. They were victims 10 and 11.

samran · March 21, 2012

What you have described sounds to me like pure laziness. Too lazy to follow the road rules. Too lazy to go to the station to pay the fine.

I do like it how you've tried to link that type of behaviour to 'thinking outside the box', making the inference that the behaviour is somehow smart. Quite the opposite many would think. It just perpetuates a problem.

Sing_Sling · March 21, 2012

Not only that, but the cop is an arm of the state and it is the state's laws that you have violated and the state has the right to punish you, in this case with a fine. Your giving the cop his 100 is flaunting the system, not thinking outside the box.

wana · March 21, 2012

Not only that, but the cop is an arm of the state and it is the state's laws that you have violated and the state has the right to punish you, in this case with a fine. Your giving the cop his 100 is flaunting the system, not thinking outside the box.

you cant blame someone for giving a cop 100thb when hes dishonestly representing the state when he suggests you should give him 100 thb

or you can make life tougher for yourself by having your licence confiscated and later paying 400 thb or more at the station

dont hate the player ,hate the game !

samran · March 21, 2012

Not only that, but the cop is an arm of the state and it is the state's laws that you have violated and the state has the right to punish you, in this case with a fine. Your giving the cop his 100 is flaunting the system, not thinking outside the box.

you cant blame someone for giving a cop 100thb when hes dishonestly representing the state when he suggests you should give him 100 thb

or you can make life tougher for yourself by having your licence confiscated and later paying 400 thb or more at the station

dont hate the player ,hate the game !

Then follow the rules, and you'll never have to play the game, which is my original point.

Sing_Sling · March 21, 2012

you cant blame someone for giving a cop 100thb when hes dishonestly representing the state when he suggests you should give him 100 thb

or you can make life tougher for yourself by having your licence confiscated and later paying 400 thb or more at the station

dont hate the player ,hate the game !

Then follow the rules, and you'll never have to play the game, which is my original point.

Wana, I was talking theoretically but at the end of the day what Samran says it the point . . . why have a different attitude towards laws here than at home

silsburyhill · March 21, 2012

My experience is those who go for the bribe are too lazy to be prepared or are too easily bullied.

Dont agree with this.

I do a u-turn illegally, I know full well I have done wrong and know exactly what I am doing as I do it, I take my chances, some you win some you lose.

After completeing my illegal turn I am pulled over, I now have two choices, go through the correct procedure, and probably pay 500 baht, plus the time and effort to do things legally, or pay 100 baht and be on my way, for me its a no brainer, nothing to do with being lazy or easily bullied.

I was in the wrong, I know I was in the wrong, the policeman knows I was in the wrong, he knows I know i was in the wrong, I look on it as nothing more than playing the system.

I can go to my embassy for a residence certificate to renew my driving license, it will cost about 2,000 baht, go and apply today, return tomorrow to pick up said certificate.

Or I can go to my local immigration office, pay 200 baht to expedite a service, that saves me both time and money, and walk out the office with the required certificate.

I was neither bullied or too lazy, I chose the method that suited my circumstances.

Have to love the Asian way of doing things, the ability "to think outside the box".

In both examples, it wasnt a bribe, it was a way of, making a problem go away.

Please excuse my transliteration, I believe the Thai expression is, bun khun, help me to help you.

When in Rome etc etc.

Yawn. Can we please get off the subject of petty driving offences, which seems to make up the majority of the pro-corruption contingent's only brush with bribery/extortion here. Do try to look at the bigger picture. Well one can dream on this forum ...

I agree with Samran. From my long experience here, the majority of those who have been persuaded to part with large sums of money to 'expedite' serious cases look as though they (a) couldn't be bothered to peel their <deleted> off that bar stool or, ( Fresh off the boat or Gated Community types who's equally bent 'lawyer' have advised them 'this the way to go'. Usually forgetting to mention they will be taking their cut on top of their fee.

wana · March 21, 2012

you cant blame someone for giving a cop 100thb when hes dishonestly representing the state when he suggests you should give him 100 thb

or you can make life tougher for yourself by having your licence confiscated and later paying 400 thb or more at the station

dont hate the player ,hate the game !

Then follow the rules, and you'll never have to play the game, which is my original point.

Wana, I was talking theoretically but at the end of the day what Samran says it the point . . . why have a different attitude towards laws here than at home

because often the "police " extort money for alledged offenses that never happened at all

there is many debates about this on the bikes in thailand forum and besides

nobody likes being hassled by men with guns for some imaginary traffic offence that never happened at all

its an uncomfortable feeling being detained .accused of something and a suggested price being the ransom

when its just 100thb most will pay and quickly go on their way to work where they can make many thousaands of thb etc

unfortunately ,the police have the authority to make the law and if they all say you broke it ,you may as well pay sooner than pay more later

look what happened to the irishman when he didnt listen yesterday ,and that wasnt even the police ,that was just a lowly security guard

thx but il pay my 100thb and get back to my life rather than kick up a fuss

silsburyhill · March 21, 2012

What a load of junk.

Thais disgust and hate the corrupt police more than anyone else,

at least those i know, they refuse to even go near them

This has been my experience also.

samran · March 21, 2012

you cant blame someone for giving a cop 100thb when hes dishonestly representing the state when he suggests you should give him 100 thb

or you can make life tougher for yourself by having your licence confiscated and later paying 400 thb or more at the station

dont hate the player ,hate the game !

Then follow the rules, and you'll never have to play the game, which is my original point.

Wana, I was talking theoretically but at the end of the day what Samran says it the point . . . why have a different attitude towards laws here than at home

because often the "police " extort money for alledged offenses that never happened at all

there is many debates about this on the bikes in thailand forum and besides

nobody likes being hassled by men with guns for some imaginary traffic offence that never happened at all

its an uncomfortable feeling being detained .accused of something and a suggested price being the ransom

when its just 100thb most will pay and quickly go on their way to work where they can make many thousaands of thb etc

unfortunately ,the police have the authority to make the law and if they all say you broke it ,you may as well pay sooner than pay more later

look what happened to the irishman when he didnt listen yesterday ,and that wasnt even the police ,that was just a lowly security guard

thx but il pay my 100thb and get back to my life rather than kick up a fuss

Sixteen years on Thai roads, having driven the length and breath of the country and into neighbouring countries and I've had BIB's try it on me twice. That's right. Both times I called their bluff.

I've had more assistance and good interactions with the BIB than bad. Many more.

I don't know how Thailand does it, but is seems to attract its fair share of foreigners who seem to be scared of their own shadow.

Edited March 21, 2012 by samran

wana · March 21, 2012

do you live in central bkk or pattaya ?

i had no bother up in isarn myself

but in the touristy cities the police use these tactics a lot

mackes · March 21, 2012

you cant blame someone for giving a cop 100thb when hes dishonestly representing the state when he suggests you should give him 100 thb

or you can make life tougher for yourself by having your licence confiscated and later paying 400 thb or more at the station

dont hate the player ,hate the game !

Then follow the rules, and you'll never have to play the game, which is my original point.

Wana, I was talking theoretically but at the end of the day what Samran says it the point . . . why have a different attitude towards laws here than at home

because often the "police " extort money for alledged offenses that never happened at all

there is many debates about this on the bikes in thailand forum and besides

nobody likes being hassled by men with guns for some imaginary traffic offence that never happened at all

its an uncomfortable feeling being detained .accused of something and a suggested price being the ransom

when its just 100thb most will pay and quickly go on their way to work where they can make many thousaands of thb etc

unfortunately ,the police have the authority to make the law and if they all say you broke it ,you may as well pay sooner than pay more later

look what happened to the irishman when he didnt listen yesterday ,and that wasnt even the police ,that was just a lowly security guard

thx but il pay my 100thb and get back to my life rather than kick up a fuss

You really have a point herr Wana, same fore me. But what we can do is to tell everybody what's happen. With todays media flow you can really make things like this visible for everyone. Also the politicans read Facebook and similar. It's also possible to send them a mail still being anonoumus. If enough mail they have to face reality.

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