Landlord Withholding Deposit

[eek]

Long shot, but looking for advice. No idea where to put this one, so general it is..(and awaiting the likely trollish comments, but so be it!)

I moved out of my old apartment a couple of weeks ago.

When i initially moved in, it was through an estate agent, but after signing the lease, the landlord took over the property.

Here is the tricky part. When i initially went to view the apartment, i met the owner, who, as it turns out, i had met before, about a year prior. It actually felt reassuring that i knew him, albeit more of an acquaintance than really knowing. When i moved in, i asked the owner two times for an inventory check to be taken (the usual form to be filled out which is given for both tenant and estate agent to check over). He was casual and said that its all fine etc etc. Against my better judgment (due to sort of knowing him), and being busy, i dropped it.

Upon moving out, i informed the landlord of any damages i caused, and asked him to work out the damage cost wise. We then met up together with his wife to go over the apartment, where, i was spoken to very rudely, and accused of taking some items. Was flabbergasted! I was polite and did not say anything i thought i may regret, stated that nothing of theirs has been taken by me, and said i will let them work it out and get back to me.

I emailed the landlord recently and he replied about so many damages, everything requiring painting and replacing, that the place was filthy, that i have damaged doors and the fridge and the fan (i have two of my own good quality fans. I didnt even use his cheap fan!), damage office chair (some cheap piece of plastic, when i have my own leather office chair, so didnt use it), holes in the wall, missing items...etc etc...UTTERLY RIDICULOUS!.

I replied very sternly back to this.

I have now written to the previous estate agents asking for an inventory from when the prior tenant moved out. Hopefully they have this(they should i imagine).

Other than that, i imagine there isnt much else i can do.

Of course, i am kicking myself that i did not absolutely insist upon an inventory check. I am reasonable and take on board any damages incurred that i am responsible for. Im now having the horrible feeling that its all been a set up :/

If nothing, this is at least a warning to others, and to myself, to always have an inventory taken, as well as photos (which ive always done in the past).

I have been here about 7 years now, and have had no issues with any property i have been in before. Ive always believed myself to be a good tenant.

Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Bangkokhatter]

Is a good warning, I know already that I am not going to renew my contract and move on, but as I look around the apartment I so wish I took photos of certain things and showed them to the landlord after I moved in.

Thing is you never notice everything until you have lived in a place a few weeks. Landlord seems ok, so maybe not a problem, but time will tell.

[surayu]

" Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth." ...you could try some mints for that.

If you end up with a scammer, there is nothing that is going to protect you, you can put in place as many inventory lists, pictures,written declarations, swearing to any gods, nothing is 100% secure, especially in this country, where they have elevated this practice to an art, just use common sense and always be ready for the worse....

[surayu]

I so wish I took photos of certain things and showed them to the landlord a

You mean a THAI landlord?? if yes, better you don't even bother about it.

Just to give you an example of how the local vision of reality apply, one day i went to buy an item in the same very shop i had bought the same identical thing before, and i even had it with me during the conversation for comparison, the same very person that had sold it to me before would keep telling me there is no way they were the same, his item was a different and new very expansive top of the range, blah blah blah....which was just a total lie and the guy didn't had a minimum of self respect in making himself looks like such a clown......the "western" concept of logic/integrity doesn't apply here, so you have to expect this and much much more coming at some point, good luck!

[shepsel]

Chock it up to experience and move on. You will never win the argument in an arbitration unless you have photos of the place and an inventory before you moved in.

When I moved out of an apartment that I kept in immaculate condition I was charged for things like leaky toilets and taps and it was so petty and insulting that I just wanted to forget about the rotten, petty landlord.

[pattayadingo]

Is a good warning, I know already that I am not going to renew my contract and move on, but as I look around the apartment I so wish I took photos of certain things and showed them to the landlord after I moved in.

Thing is you never notice everything until you have lived in a place a few weeks. Landlord seems ok, so maybe not a problem, but time will tell.

Same with me after I moved into the house I am currently in. TBH I needed a place and this was the best of a somewhat mediocre bunch so I saw it more through the old 'rose tinted specs' and it was not until I had been in several weeks that I began to see the faults.

As it is I have paid 8K as deposit and losing that will not break the bank if push comes to shove.

any aggro from the landlord and I can always set my Issan Rottweiler (g/f) upon him

[monty1412]

In the digital age we are in there is now NO excuse for not taking detailed photo's of everything in the apartment / condo when you move in, make sure they are date stamped and then email them to the owner or landlord/ letting agent. Even coffee mug rings on cheap wooden tables sort of thing.

I write " now NO excuse" as I was bitten not long ago and now every time I rent a place I spend 15 minutes cataloging everything including water stains under sinks, cracks in walls, chips on furniture, scuff marks on tiles.. sounds anal but fact that you email these to the owner/ landlord letting agents immediately on moving in and keep a copy of the email and the photos themselves to me is a deterrent against them playing silly games at lease end.

[GuestHouse]

Full and detailed inspection when you move in.

Report and damage as it occurs - in writing

Report any maintenance as it occurs - in writing

Full detailed inspection as you move out

Deposit returned when keys are handed over

And if you have the slightest suspicion that you are going to have trouble getting your deposit back - a couple of fresh fleshy fish left for your landlord somewhere in the apartment/house.

[eek]

Im kicking myself for having trust. Yes, in hindsight should not have.

Forgot to mention that the owner is a Farang. I didnt think this would happen, but there you go.

He came with his Thai wife who had an expression of sucking lemons as soon as she met me. She was the one, when i said i did not take the things listed as missing, who said that is not true. (Was even asked where the microwave was.. it is MY microwave!). I looked at her as she basically accused me of stealing and she did not make eye contact back. She went around the place with a Gestapo air then went on the phone with her blue tooth headset talking about me in Thai. The owner was the one who then started making insulting comments. Utterly unprofessional and downright bad manners. If they had issues, then deal with it like mature adults.Instead i stood holding my tongue aghast at the way they had decided to act. A bullying, low attitude.

Definitely, in the very least, a good word of caution to others.

Never again will i be so laxed.

[Carib]

Ah, a farang, come on Eek where is the apartment and give us a hint I am sure TV can take him to the cleaners.....

[Ulysses G.]

" Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth." ...you could try some mints for that.

If you end up with a scammer, there is nothing that is going to protect you, you can put in place as many inventory lists, pictures,written declarations, swearing to any gods, nothing is 100% secure, especially in this country, where they have elevated this practice to an art, just use common sense and always be ready for the worse....

I agree. However, I have moved out of probably 20 different rooms, apartments and business locations since I've lived here and always got my deposit back. I never take it for granted that I will get it back though as I have heard lots of stories about renters who get scammed..

[submaniac]

Oh Eek, so sorry to hear about this. I wish I could give you some advice, but I share your opinions that recourse is difficult. Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it? Anything I could offer in terms of advice is advice that has already been given, that you already know.

[DP25]

When i moved in, i asked the owner two times for an inventory check to be taken (the usual form to be filled out which is given for both tenant and estate agent to check over). He was casual and said that its all fine etc etc. Against my better judgment (due to sort of knowing him), and being busy, i dropped it.

Planning this from the beginning. Total scumbag. Not sure what you can do to get back the money he's stealing from you.

[GuestHouse]

......

Forgot to mention that the owner is a Farang. ......

He came with his Thai wife who had an expression of sucking lemons ....... She went around the place with a Gestapo air then went on the phone with her blue tooth headset.......Utterly unprofessional and downright bad manners........ A bullying, low attitude.

Look on the bright side.

You only rented, OK you lost your deposit but you can move on.

He married this piece of work and is stuck with it until she decides its his turn, at which time loosing a house deposit will seem like chicken feed.

Learn, move on, do not repeat.

[wana]

many landlords have a supereriority complex over those "peasants" that are renting from them

i learned since my teenage days ,a deposit is a gift to the owner ,NEVER EVER rely on getting a deposit back

if u get it back its like a christmas bonus !!!

there is always some aspect of a property that could use "upgrading" and quite often ,landlords feel they can re-decorate with the deposit

because the place looked fresher a year ago before these dirty animals tenants moved in ......

[Pseudolus]

Not tried it here but in Hong Kong most people do not pay their last months rent so at least they have some leverage when you move out. Not doing this usually means you get shafted. Never had a problem with unfurnished places but when it has furnishings, it seems that wear and tear (depreciation basically) on these items are taken from the deposit. Agree though, a lot of land lords basically spend the deposit and at the end of the term it feels to them that they are giving you their money and not that they are returning your money.

[Heimdallr]

Sorry to hear for what happened. Sounds like it was intentional from the beginning and you're not their only victim. There isn't much you can do with little evidence you have, but I wouldn't give up easily knowing they are filthy scammers.

[beachyman]

Full and detailed inspection when you move in.

Report and damage as it occurs - in writing

Report any maintenance as it occurs - in writing

Full detailed inspection as you move out

Deposit returned when keys are handed over

And if you have the slightest suspicion that you are going to have trouble getting your deposit back - a couple of fresh fleshy fish left for your landlord somewhere in the apartment/house.

Deposit is not returned when moveing out but rather within 30 days to allow for final water electric cable and internet bills to arrive. Some idiots think they can rack up bills or forget to cancel to avoid termination charges and you won't notice.

I never have a problem with doing a review of damage and breakage together on check out day but if some joker did as you suggested I'd forward the info to immigration w the departure card and passport which prevents you from leaving the country at any immigration point until that was remedied.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[wana]

Full and detailed inspection when you move in.

Report and damage as it occurs - in writing

Report any maintenance as it occurs - in writing

Full detailed inspection as you move out

Deposit returned when keys are handed over

And if you have the slightest suspicion that you are going to have trouble getting your deposit back - a couple of fresh fleshy fish left for your landlord somewhere in the apartment/house.

usually,they send in the cleaners and that costs 1000

if theres a mark on the walls ,its needs painted ,deduct 5000

if theres a mark on the furniture ,it needs repaired ,deduct another 5000

If there is any cracked or stained tiles ,deduct another 5000

if any appliances are broken deduct another couple of 1000's

if the tenant doesnt pay his rent or other charges ,the lease is immediately cancelled and the tenant door will

be opened ,property confiscated and held / sold without notice and no return shall be made until debts are cleared in full

this is all in my current contract + 10 pages of other shit

i already kissed that deposit goodbye as soon as i read the contract but i wanted the property badly so i signed it anyway

[eek]

Beachyman, i dont think GuestHouse was suggesting doing a runner on the bills. Talking of which, prior to the Gestapo encounter, i had emailed to say the electric bill had not yet come in, and that if it did not come by key handover, to of course deduct it from the deposit. All other bills (condo maintenance fee etc) paid, and receipts were shown during key handover. I think what really gets me is the treatment, because i was perfectly willing to discuss and amend any damages or concerns. Im non aggressive and prefer problems to be handled in a diplomatic way, and i think thats obvious to people. I believe they probably considered me an easy target. If my boyfriend had of been there, without a doubt he wouldnt have handled it so politely as i!

[eek]

Full and detailed inspection when you move in.

Report and damage as it occurs - in writing

Report any maintenance as it occurs - in writing

Full detailed inspection as you move out

Deposit returned when keys are handed over

And if you have the slightest suspicion that you are going to have trouble getting your deposit back - a couple of fresh fleshy fish left for your landlord somewhere in the apartment/house.

usually,they send in the cleaners and that costs 1000

if theres a mark on the walls ,its needs painted ,deduct 5000

if theres a mark on the furniture ,it needs repaired ,deduct another 5000

If there is any cracked or stained tiles ,deduct another 5000

if any appliances are broken deduct another couple of 1000's

if the tenant doesnt pay his rent or other charges ,the lease is immediately cancelled and the tenant door will

be opened ,property confiscated and held / sold without notice and no return shall be made until debts are cleared in full

this is all in my current contract + 10 pages of other shit

i already kissed that deposit goodbye as soon as i read the contract but i wanted the property badly so i signed it anyway

Wow! Thats one hell of a contract! Yes, i would say most likely kiss the deposit goodbye, but at least you figured that from the beginning. But ouch!

------

Well anyway, regarding this at the very least, ive appreciated being able to vent.

..and Im a big believer in what goes around comes around...so they will get their just deserts at some point im sure!

Edited March 20, 2012 by eek

[T_Dog]

Im kicking myself for having trust. Yes, in hindsight should not have.

Forgot to mention that the owner is a Farang. I didnt think this would happen, but there you go.

He came with his Thai wife who had an expression of sucking lemons as soon as she met me. She was the one, when i said i did not take the things listed as missing, who said that is not true. (Was even asked where the microwave was.. it is MY microwave!). I looked at her as she basically accused me of stealing and she did not make eye contact back. She went around the place with a Gestapo air then went on the phone with her blue tooth headset talking about me in Thai. The owner was the one who then started making insulting comments. Utterly unprofessional and downright bad manners. If they had issues, then deal with it like mature adults.Instead i stood holding my tongue aghast at the way they had decided to act. A bullying, low attitude.

Definitely, in the very least, a good word of caution to others.

Never again will i be so laxed.

Eek... Very sorry to hear about your experience and I have been in those positions a few times myself. In one case several years ago, we just finally caved in and walked away. Then another house we rented, the foreign land owners company did not return our deposit for four months and were doing an obvious delay tactic so they could keep the money. We finally got it but it was a struggle. Good luck Eek, and sometimes not dealing with people like that is worth thousands of baht. If you rent a new place, ask about putting down a smaller non-refundable deposit. That works with some land lords.

[wana]

Full and detailed inspection when you move in.

Report and damage as it occurs - in writing

Report any maintenance as it occurs - in writing

Full detailed inspection as you move out

Deposit returned when keys are handed over

And if you have the slightest suspicion that you are going to have trouble getting your deposit back - a couple of fresh fleshy fish left for your landlord somewhere in the apartment/house.

usually,they send in the cleaners and that costs 1000

if theres a mark on the walls ,its needs painted ,deduct 5000

if theres a mark on the furniture ,it needs repaired ,deduct another 5000

If there is any cracked or stained tiles ,deduct another 5000

if any appliances are broken deduct another couple of 1000's

if the tenant doesnt pay his rent or other charges ,the lease is immediately cancelled and the tenant door will

be opened ,property confiscated and held / sold without notice and no return shall be made until debts are cleared in full

this is all in my current contract + 10 pages of other shit

i already kissed that deposit goodbye as soon as i read the contract but i wanted the property badly so i signed it anyway

Wow! Thats one hell of a contract! Yes, i would say most likely kiss the deposit goodbye, but at least you figured that from the beginning. But ouch!

the way i look at it is like this :

if i plan to stay there 2 years and the deposit is 120k and the rent is 60k per month

i would count it as being a 65k thb house and compare it to other 65k houses

there is just too many excuses that enables a crooked landlord to keep the money

after a 2 year contract ,there wil be signs of wear and tear on almost everything

even natural light will have darkened / faded the paint in some areas ,buildings

deteoriate over time and they need new furniture ,carpets ,beds ,sofas ,tiles ,paint

appliances ,coffee tables ,window cleaning ,plumbing ,electricial work

landlords think they are above all this since they dont live there personally and think that

they are not responsible for the wear and tear of daily life and the cost of keeping a building

looking brand new

[robblok]

Full and detailed inspection when you move in.

Report and damage as it occurs - in writing

Report any maintenance as it occurs - in writing

Full detailed inspection as you move out

Deposit returned when keys are handed over

And if you have the slightest suspicion that you are going to have trouble getting your deposit back - a couple of fresh fleshy fish left for your landlord somewhere in the apartment/house.

Deposit is not returned when moveing out but rather within 30 days to allow for final water electric cable and internet bills to arrive. Some idiots think they can rack up bills or forget to cancel to avoid termination charges and you won't notice.

I never have a problem with doing a review of damage and breakage together on check out day but if some joker did as you suggested I'd forward the info to immigration w the departure card and passport which prevents you from leaving the country at any immigration point until that was remedied.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

Im sure you got enough pull with immigration to make that happen.

I got ripped off once too by a scumbag owner. Wanted me to pay for the repainting of the outside of the house. Blamed me for all kinds of normal wear and tear (leaking pipes in the ceiling that i told him to fix) It was only 5k so i did not make a scene but it showed me what kind of scum people are who rent out stuff. Seems they expect the deposit to be used for normal wear and tear instead of setting some money aside for it. I am sure there are honest people too, but if i ever rent again i withhold the last months payment. At least it gives me a bit of leverage that way.

[TexasRanger]

I recently moved out of a place in Bangkok, we had been there years with a good landlady, anyway we had the "expected" costs when moving out for washing the curtains, cleaning all the AC units etc. I don't feel we were really ripped off, maybe a bit of liberty taken on the price but not a huge mark up. Anyway, moved into a new place, the agent took all photos for the iventory with us and the landlady present, but after reading other peoples trouble I will bring up the matter of deposit return 2 months before moving out so if there is a problem we can adjust the final rent payments. Sounds fair to me. I wouldn't dream of ripping them off as I am a landlord myself, but I won't be taken for a mug either.

[robblok]

I recently moved out of a place in Bangkok, we had been there years with a good landlady, anyway we had the "expected" costs when moving out for washing the curtains, cleaning all the AC units etc. I don't feel we were really ripped off, maybe a bit of liberty taken on the price but not a huge mark up. Anyway, moved into a new place, the agent took all photos for the iventory with us and the landlady present, but after reading other peoples trouble I will bring up the matter of deposit return 2 months before moving out so if there is a problem we can adjust the final rent payments. Sounds fair to me. I wouldn't dream of ripping them off as I am a landlord myself, but I won't be taken for a mug either.

Sure no need to rip them off, but by withholding the deposit you give yourself a bit of leverage. Else you have none. I would not dream of ripping a landlord of either but id expect the same the other way around too. But i read and heard about this too many times.

[wana]

Full and detailed inspection when you move in.

Report and damage as it occurs - in writing

Report any maintenance as it occurs - in writing

Full detailed inspection as you move out

Deposit returned when keys are handed over

And if you have the slightest suspicion that you are going to have trouble getting your deposit back - a couple of fresh fleshy fish left for your landlord somewhere in the apartment/house.

Deposit is not returned when moveing out but rather within 30 days to allow for final water electric cable and internet bills to arrive. Some idiots think they can rack up bills or forget to cancel to avoid termination charges and you won't notice.

I never have a problem with doing a review of damage and breakage together on check out day but if some joker did as you suggested I'd forward the info to immigration w the departure card and passport which prevents you from leaving the country at any immigration point until that was remedied.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

but if i ever rent again i withhold the last months payment. At least it gives me a bit of leverage that way.

thats exactly the reason why you pay 2-3 months almost everywhere now

and also ,you dont pay the month you have lived retrospectively ie at the end

you pay for the month going forward ie. one the first day of the month you pay in advance for the next 29 days

this normally leaves the landlord with 2-3 months rent should you have a party and wreck the place or choose to not pay the last months rent and basically run away from the bills and damages

someone else mentioned asking for the deposit 2 months before leaving ,no sensible landlord wil agree to not paying rent for the last 2-3 months in case people do have a leaving party and many things get destroyed

[beachyman]

Not tried it here but in Hong Kong most people do not pay their last months rent so at least they have some leverage when you move out. Not doing this usually means you get shafted. Never had a problem with unfurnished places but when it has furnishings, it seems that wear and tear (depreciation basically) on these items are taken from the deposit. Agree though, a lot of land lords basically spend the deposit and at the end of the term it feels to them that they are giving you their money and not that they are returning your money.

Lots of contracts including ones I and people I know have late fee for the first 5 days late then notice finally eviction notice after so if someone tried that you may end up w changed locks and an eviction notice on the door and your things outside.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[samran]

How much we talking about here in terms of lost deposit?

A couple of thoughts:

- presumably you got their details too when you signed the rental contract. Given he and his wife are such cheapskates there is a fair chance that they haven't paid tax on their rentals. Presumably you also have evidence of tranfers to them, electronic or otherwise, as well as the lease. Letting them know you'll report them to the revenue department might get their attention.

- As far as I can tell, they've defamed you. Smarter people than me will know better, but I understand that filing for defamation is rather easy in Thailand, though I stand to be corrected on that fact and the efficacy of it.

- Finally, the guy is working without a work permit. That is illegal you know.

[wana]

How much we talking about here in terms of lost deposit?

A couple of thoughts:

- presumably you got their details too when you signed the rental contract. Given he and his wife are such cheapskates there is a fair chance that they haven't paid tax on their rentals. Presumably you also have evidence of tranfers to them, electronic or otherwise, as well as the lease. Letting them know you'll report them to the revenue department might get their attention.

- As far as I can tell, they've defamed you. Smarter people than me will know better, but I understand that filing for defamation is rather easy in Thailand, though I stand to be corrected on that fact and the efficacy of it.

- Finally, the guy is working without a work permit. That is illegal you know.

How much we talking about here in terms of lost deposit?

A couple of thoughts:

- presumably you got their details too when you signed the rental contract. Given he and his wife are such cheapskates there is a fair chance that they haven't paid tax on their rentals. Presumably you also have evidence of tranfers to them, electronic or otherwise, as well as the lease. Letting them know you'll report them to the revenue department might get their attention.

- As far as I can tell, they've defamed you. Smarter people than me will know better, but I understand that filing for defamation is rather easy in Thailand, though I stand to be corrected on that fact and the efficacy of it.

- Finally, the guy is working without a work permit. That is illegal you know.

i think blackmail is a bad way to go .more likely than not landlords wil know a cop or maybe even have one in the family

ready to deal with "problem tenants "

you could find yourself deported ,or a yabba tablet could be thrown under your door and 5 minutes later the police break down your door and find it

the problem with resorting to these tactics in thailand is the odds are heavily stacked against you( a farang ) before the game even begins

its like playing russian roulette with 5 bullets in a revolver ,and volunteering to go first .......