What Would They Say To Each Other At A 'Peace Summit'?: Thai Talk

[webfact]

THAI TALK

What would they say to each other at a 'peace summit'?

Suthichai Yoon

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Can you imagine General Prem Tinsulanonda and Thaksin Shinawatra meeting for a proposed "peace summit"? I can, but only in my wildest dreams.

Even in "amazing Thailand", the scenario - as proposed by a "third party" with a genuine desire for a breakthrough in the country's political stalemate - appears incredibly naive and far-fetched.

Some politicians are really contemptuous of the public's level of intelligence. They can always, without fail, come up with simplistic ideas masquerading as "solutions" to most of the complicated issues that in fact were of their own creation.

No, come to think of it, they might not be that innocent after all. Neither are they ignorant of the facts involved. They are simply desperate enough to make suggestions that the average Thai would consider too far-fetched even to contemplate in the first place.

Chart Thai Pattana chief adviser Sanan Kachornprasart, having admitted failure in playing the role of "peace-maker", suggested that ousted former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, and president of the Privy Council, General Prem Tinsulanonda, should hold a summit and the current political crisis would be resolved in no time.

Thaksin and his supporters have claimed all along that someone with "extra-constitutional power" might have engineered his ouster.

But Prem has let it be known (without uttering a word to that effect in public!) that he is not a party to the ongoing conflict.

Therefore, even agreeing to the summit concept would be tantamount to admitting that he is in fact taking sides in this national face-off.

In fact, if Thailand's lingering conflict was simply a Prem-Thaksin issue, it wouldn't have been such a prolonged and messy affair. The red-shirt leaders have insisted all along that the prevailing crisis is the result of the gap between the rich and poor, the prai and the ammart - in other words, it's the huge gap between the elite and the downtrodden.

The yellow shirts offer a different theory. They claim that the real problem in the country is that some rich politicians have resorted to populist policies employing "evil capital" to exploit the poor through corruption and abuse of power.

They may both be right. Or even if only one side is correct in its analysis, it still has nothing directly to do with whether Prem was behind Thaksin's ouster or not. If Prem is considered "leader of the privileged", Thaksin - being the country's richest and undeniably most influential politician - can't possibly be said to represent the poor and powerless, especially now that his Pheu Thai Party is in power and most of the "prai" leaders have now assumed highly privileged positions in the government.

Back to the tantalising question: What would Prem and Thaksin discuss in the proposed summit?

If he was really courageous, Thaksin could pose a direct question to the Privy Council president on whether he was behind the 2006 coup. And if Prem wasn't his own restrained and reserved self, he could probably ask Thaksin why the latter had devoted so much time and energy to putting all the blame for his political trouble on him.

That's the most unlikely scenario, of course. Another possible scenario, although still improbable for all intents and purposes, is for the two to be nice to each other and to promise to forgive and forget - and issue a joint communique declaring an end to the country's conflict amidst cheers from the red and yellow shirts before disbanding their political groups.

Even under that highly unlikely scenario, the rest of the country (those who are neither red nor yellow) would still find the imagined summit irrelevant. This country, after all, doesn't belong to only these two gentlemen. The national interests aren't defined by just these two persons - and whatever solutions they might thrash out (if that's at all possible) don't necessarily answer the basic issues this country is facing.

But if we take this absurd idea to its illogical conclusion, the first "peace summit" would have to be between Thaksin and the 2006 coup-maker, General Sonthi Boonyaratglin.

Or have I missed the big news? Perhaps, judging from Sonthi's bizarre behaviour recently, they might have already held their virtual summit without the public's general knowledge.

In that case, they can claim that peace is at hand - but it has nothing to do with you and me and the rest of the country.

-- The Nation 2012-04-05

[nurofiend]

Thaksin - being the country's richest and undeniably most influential politician - can't possibly be said to represent the poor and powerless

to say that a politician can't represent the poor and powerless, based on how rich and powerful that politian is... it's not exactly a fool proof statement is it?

it's the same as saying a rich person can't have empathy for the poor.

unless it's meant as - you have to be poor and powerless yourself to be able to be represent the poor and powerless... which would be completely stupid.

[sparebox2]

Sonthi's bizarre behaviour recently?

What about in 2006?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

While there are those with wealth who have empathy for the poor, I doubt if they communicate with them directly enough to know their actual problems. And those with wealth **and** power are unlikely to be enlighted enough to betray the interests of their cronies.

If the elite here would simply improve education that would be a huge step forward, even if all the rest were just lip service.

I think realistically, only actually empowering the poor themselves will allow them to be effectively represented. Pure lip service on its own was a huge step forward IMO, my perception is that the yellows don't want to have to stoop to even that. The poor here honestly believe that Thaksin cares about them, and while that perception is going to be difficult to change, any effective opposition will have to figure out how to do so.

Reality isn't that important in any democracy, and IMO even more so here - it's all about perception.

[CalgaryII]

"........................................and issue a joint communique declaring an end to the country's conflict amidst cheers from the red and yellow shirts before disbanding their political groups"

I have heard Mr. Abhisit wishfully refer to this at one time, and see it again here. That being the notion of disbanding the UDD/Red Shirts (I will ignore for the moment calling this huge political movement a 'group'). The fact of the matter is that Thaksin or others if high standing, could call for such dispersal and dissolving until they were "blue in the face". Ain't gonna happen. The esprit-de-corps, cohesiveness and bonding of this citizen's political movement is such, that it would discard very quickly anyone who suggested it. Only when one contemplates its truly grassroots beginning, evolvement and bonded integration, could that be understood. The adage of United we stand, Divided we fall, is never truer than in this instance. The UDD/Red Shirts have been their vehicle to political equality and electoral dominance. They will never relinquish it.

Edited April 5, 2012 by CalgaryII

[inquisitive]

"........................................and issue a joint communique declaring an end to the country's conflict amidst cheers from the red and yellow shirts before disbanding their political groups"

I have heard Mr. Abhisit wishfully refer to this at one time, and see it again here. That being the notion of disbanding the UDD/Red Shirts (I will ignore for the moment calling this huge political movement a 'group'). The fact of the matter is that Thaksin or others if high standing, could call for such dispersal and dissolving until they were "blue in the face". Ain't gonna happen. The esprit-de-corps, cohesiveness and bonding of this citizen's political movement is such, that it would discard very quickly anyone who suggested it. Only when one contemplates its truly grassroots beginning, evolvement and bonded integration, could that be understood. The adage of United we stand, Divided we fall, is never truer than in this instance. The UDD/Red Shirts have been their vehicle to political equality and electoral dominance. They will never relinquish it.

This is a wonderful piece of inspirational rhetoric, but it reminds me of the conversation between two Irish housewives after church one Sunday. "That was an inspiring sermon Father Flannahan gave today on the institution of marriage, wasn't it?" said the first. "Aye," answered the other. "And I wish I knew as little about the subject as he does."

If anyone thinks that the poor and oppressed in this country ar idealagogues for ANY political system, or for that matter, could even describe in detail what a democracy or any other political system is, then they are surely naive. Thai poor are like the poor all over the world. They have problems. They know what they want and it is always something concrete, not theoretical. As an example, they want money and they don't care about "equal opportunity." The intellectuals try to convince them that equal opportunity will lead to more money and such promises can even lead to votes, but in the end, give a poor person the choice between the two items and they'll choose the money every time.

Democracy, autocracy, plutocracy, socialism, Hell, even call it Nazi-ism. They don't care. Those are words, and you can't buy mobile phones with words. The poor are interested in more money, less work, more respect, a new car. And to fit in with their neighbors, of course.

So would dam_n near every red shirt follower suddenly get religion and a yellow jacket if they thought it was going to get them a Mercedes without having to do anything else? You bet your bippy. And they wouldn't be abandoning their political ideals and loyalties in the process because the fact is that their loyalty is and always has been to themselves.

That's not a criticism. We all see the world only through our own eyes and must train very hard to do otherwise. The poor have had neither the leisure time nor the inclination to invest in such an idealistic activity. You won't hear debates about the essential nature of man or the rights of animals in the heartland. And even though you'll find some unpaid demonstrators in the midst of the grand rallies, you'd be hard-pressed to find a pair that could tell you what the demonstration was really (really) about. Their explanations come as close to reality as a ten year old's description of sex.

I'm not saying that they don't feel intensely, I am only saying that you should never count on their loyalty to a theory of any kind.

[surangw]

the real topic is how can we look good in this and stay in power.

[hellodolly]

"........................................and issue a joint communique declaring an end to the country's conflict amidst cheers from the red and yellow shirts before disbanding their political groups"

I have heard Mr. Abhisit wishfully refer to this at one time, and see it again here. That being the notion of disbanding the UDD/Red Shirts (I will ignore for the moment calling this huge political movement a 'group'). The fact of the matter is that Thaksin or others if high standing, could call for such dispersal and dissolving until they were "blue in the face". Ain't gonna happen. The esprit-de-corps, cohesiveness and bonding of this citizen's political movement is such, that it would discard very quickly anyone who suggested it. Only when one contemplates its truly grassroots beginning, evolvement and bonded integration, could that be understood. The adage of United we stand, Divided we fall, is never truer than in this instance. The UDD/Red Shirts have been their vehicle to political equality and electoral dominance. They will never relinquish it.

This is a wonderful piece of inspirational rhetoric, but it reminds me of the conversation between two Irish housewives after church one Sunday. "That was an inspiring sermon Father Flannahan gave today on the institution of marriage, wasn't it?" said the first. "Aye," answered the other. "And I wish I knew as little about the subject as he does."

If anyone thinks that the poor and oppressed in this country ar idealagogues for ANY political system, or for that matter, could even describe in detail what a democracy or any other political system is, then they are surely naive. Thai poor are like the poor all over the world. They have problems. They know what they want and it is always something concrete, not theoretical. As an example, they want money and they don't care about "equal opportunity." The intellectuals try to convince them that equal opportunity will lead to more money and such promises can even lead to votes, but in the end, give a poor person the choice between the two items and they'll choose the money every time.

Democracy, autocracy, plutocracy, socialism, Hell, even call it Nazi-ism. They don't care. Those are words, and you can't buy mobile phones with words. The poor are interested in more money, less work, more respect, a new car. And to fit in with their neighbors, of course.

So would dam_n near every red shirt follower suddenly get religion and a yellow jacket if they thought it was going to get them a Mercedes without having to do anything else? You bet your bippy. And they wouldn't be abandoning their political ideals and loyalties in the process because the fact is that their loyalty is and always has been to themselves.

That's not a criticism. We all see the world only through our own eyes and must train very hard to do otherwise. The poor have had neither the leisure time nor the inclination to invest in such an idealistic activity. You won't hear debates about the essential nature of man or the rights of animals in the heartland. And even though you'll find some unpaid demonstrators in the midst of the grand rallies, you'd be hard-pressed to find a pair that could tell you what the demonstration was really (really) about. Their explanations come as close to reality as a ten year old's description of sex.

I'm not saying that they don't feel intensely, I am only saying that you should never count on their loyalty to a theory of any kind.

You are quite rite and it is to their wants that the PT plays not there needs. I will make you rich in six months. I will give you a three hundred Baht a day minimum. Check the red shirt villages and see if that is what they have got. And while you are there ask them if the price of things are going down.

They will always vote for the talk and ignore the reality until they have been given a decent education and the ability to see what is real and what is not.

[hyperdimension]

They will never relinquish it.

Survival of the Red Shirts would depend a lot on funding. Being an insider, you might know who funds the Red Shirts. Is it Thaksin? He is undoubtedly generous to the Red Shirt leaders:

I read an interview with Kwanchai, the leader of "Rak Udon' yesterday. I've translated some extracts which maybe of interest to some readers.

Q. Some red shirts groups are proposing changes to the constitution, what are your thoughts?

A. These people are not real fighters, they're simply out for personal benefit.Some of them used to work for me in the past, arranging media activities. At the time of the petition for a royal Pardon for Thaksin, Rak Udon group collected 400,000 signatures, but these groups now couldn't get 10,000 to come to a rally. There were only 500 people at one of their concerts, more vendors than spectators.

Myself and Issan people have faith in Chalerm, like him,we believe changes to the constitution can wait. The government has no achievements yet due to the floods.There is no need for conflict now, we have 4 years. Clause 113 should be left alone. We never oppose or criticise the monarchy. We are loyal to the crown like Thaksin.I don't care if the hard core reds are angry with me, they only hide behind microphones and cyberspace.I live with the people.I'm building a red shirt centre on 18 rai, costing 15 million baht, I want the government to establish a trading centre and meeting hall.

I believe Yingluk will be PM for 2 sessions, 8 years in all.

Q. What direction will the red shirts of Issan take from now on?

A. Upcountry people don't want to be the tools of anyone anymore. Issan people lost a lot in the struggle for democracy.From now on we will work for the benefit of society, ie the ordination of 999 monks for the King on Jan 9th. Another example is the collection of 1 million bottles of water for the flood victims.

We support ourselves,we have received little support from either the UDD or Thaksin.

I went to visit Thaksin in the capacity of someone who respects and loves him, I never asked for anything though Thaksin may have given me 100,000 to 200,000 baht for the flights, the most I got was when I went to Cambodia to meet him, I received 500,000 baht. But Thaksin has never given me money for the movement, for he knows I am where I am because the peole have faith in me,not because of money.

Q. What are the aims of the 20 provinces red shirt assembly?

A. We want to make the movement stronger over the next 3 years, Korat is weak in terms of red support at present but with the death of Pairote and Suwat's party lacking a firm base,we should increase our numbers. The same in Buriram.Pheua Thai should win all 126 seats in Issan in the next election.

I want Thaksin to come home, I love Thaksin and his policies, I want the leaders of the UDD to understand the feelings of the villagers,notice the reaction of some villagers to the UDD leaders, the leaders should realise villagers are not stupid, rather they are straightforward, they love sincerely but if they feel they have been cheated they will react accordingly and the situation today is the people feel they have been cheated. If the UDD leaders arrange a football match in Sakon Nakhon with the whole UDD committee playing, there will be a crowd of only 100 people, but I only have to blow the whistle once and 4,000 to 5,000 people will come!

[CalgaryII]

They will never relinquish it.

Survival of the Red Shirts would depend a lot on funding. Being an insider, you might know who funds the Red Shirts. Is it Thaksin? He is undoubtedly generous to the Red Shirt leaders:

I read an interview with Kwanchai, the leader of "Rak Udon' yesterday. I've translated some extracts which maybe of interest to some readers.

Q. Some red shirts groups are proposing changes to the constitution, what are your thoughts?

A. These people are not real fighters, they're simply out for personal benefit.Some of them used to work for me in the past, arranging media activities. At the time of the petition for a royal Pardon for Thaksin, Rak Udon group collected 400,000 signatures, but these groups now couldn't get 10,000 to come to a rally. There were only 500 people at one of their concerts, more vendors than spectators.

Myself and Issan people have faith in Chalerm, like him,we believe changes to the constitution can wait. The government has no achievements yet due to the floods.There is no need for conflict now, we have 4 years. Clause 113 should be left alone. We never oppose or criticise the monarchy. We are loyal to the crown like Thaksin.I don't care if the hard core reds are angry with me, they only hide behind microphones and cyberspace.I live with the people.I'm building a red shirt centre on 18 rai, costing 15 million baht, I want the government to establish a trading centre and meeting hall.

I believe Yingluk will be PM for 2 sessions, 8 years in all.

Q. What direction will the red shirts of Issan take from now on?

A. Upcountry people don't want to be the tools of anyone anymore. Issan people lost a lot in the struggle for democracy.From now on we will work for the benefit of society, ie the ordination of 999 monks for the King on Jan 9th. Another example is the collection of 1 million bottles of water for the flood victims.

We support ourselves,we have received little support from either the UDD or Thaksin.

I went to visit Thaksin in the capacity of someone who respects and loves him, I never asked for anything though Thaksin may have given me 100,000 to 200,000 baht for the flights, the most I got was when I went to Cambodia to meet him, I received 500,000 baht. But Thaksin has never given me money for the movement, for he knows I am where I am because the peole have faith in me,not because of money.

Q. What are the aims of the 20 provinces red shirt assembly?

A. We want to make the movement stronger over the next 3 years, Korat is weak in terms of red support at present but with the death of Pairote and Suwat's party lacking a firm base,we should increase our numbers. The same in Buriram.Pheua Thai should win all 126 seats in Issan in the next election.

I want Thaksin to come home, I love Thaksin and his policies, I want the leaders of the UDD to understand the feelings of the villagers,notice the reaction of some villagers to the UDD leaders, the leaders should realise villagers are not stupid, rather they are straightforward, they love sincerely but if they feel they have been cheated they will react accordingly and the situation today is the people feel they have been cheated. If the UDD leaders arrange a football match in Sakon Nakhon with the whole UDD committee playing, there will be a crowd of only 100 people, but I only have to blow the whistle once and 4,000 to 5,000 people will come!

This is a very dated interview with Kwanchai.

Survival of the Red Shirts has nothing to do with funding. I know, living in their midst. That is an Opposition mantra trying to discredit the political awareness of the Red Shirts, suggesting the motivation is exclusively funding oriented. It is their arrogance on display suggesting only they have political astuteness.

"I am a Red Shirt from the heart" is how many describe themselves, and they quickly identify imposters, who are in it for what they can personally get out of it. I have observed a local organizational phenomenon, where leaders of a particular faction were drummed out, when it was realized they were seeking personal financial gain. They were quickly identified as not being RS's from the heart.

And holding on to that skewed perception promoted by their brethren, the Opposition will continue to be at a political disadvantage.

Underestimating one's opposite is not smart.

Edited April 6, 2012 by CalgaryII

[hyperdimension]

This is a very dated interview with Kwanchai.

Only a few months old? You don't dispute the fact that Thaksin does pay the Red Shirt leaders, which implies that you accept that he does.

Survival of the Red Shirts has nothing to do with funding. I know, living in their midst.

Without funding, their massive gatherings and propaganda channels (newspapers, magazines, radio stations, satellite television channels) will likely cease. Who covers such expenses that would amount to millions of baht? It seems that you don't want to answer the question.

[inquisitive]

They will never relinquish it.

Survival of the Red Shirts would depend a lot on funding. Being an insider, you might know who funds the Red Shirts. Is it Thaksin? He is undoubtedly generous to the Red Shirt leaders:

I read an interview with Kwanchai, the leader of "Rak Udon' yesterday. I've translated some extracts which maybe of interest to some readers.

Q. Some red shirts groups are proposing changes to the constitution, what are your thoughts?

A. These people are not real fighters, they're simply out for personal benefit. ... <important stuff snipped here. If you haven't read it already, you should go back to Siripon's posting.>

This is a very dated interview with Kwanchai.

Survival of the Red Shirts has nothing to do with funding. I know, living in their midst. That is an Opposition mantra trying to discredit the political awareness of the Red Shirts, suggesting the motivation is exclusively funding oriented. It is their arrogance on display suggesting only they have political astuteness.

"I am a Red Shirt from the heart" is how many describe themselves, and they quickly identify imposters, who are in it for what they can personally get out of it. I have observed a local organizational phenomenon, where leaders of a particular faction were drummed out, when it was realized they were seeking personal financial gain. They were quickly identified as not being RS's from the heart.

And holding on to that skewed perception promoted by their brethren, the Opposition will continue to be at a political disadvantage.

Underestimating one's opposite is not smart.

CalgaryII, you may have much to say with great insights, but your style is one of a political propagandist, and so you are not believable. You write of the insincerity of others and yet your own words seem so practiced that it is hard to imagine you speaking without a soapbox. I, too, spend much time among the so-called Red Shirts. One of my own relatives was there at Central World and counted as one of your dedicated soldiers (I mean "strongly motivated, freedom-loving comrades"). He, like his friends, came expecting only to stay a week at the most. It was a fun thing to do during his boring unemployment of the off-season. And he, like his friends, were physically threatened when he told the group leader that it was no longer fun and he wanted to go home. I am relieved to say that even though he was intimidated to stay in the crowd against his will and against his beliefs and against the law, he was not injured when the government was forced to carry out their duties to the country and restore order. Will he again trust those leaders that had confiscated his ID card to prevent him from leaving? Well, he would trust them to pay him, because every day at 5 PM when he was forced to check in in order to get his pay, they came through as they promised. But does he even for a second think that they used him in this way for his own good? Please. He is uneducated, not ignorant.

I would not generalize and say every Red Shirt is now older and wiser, but surely this man is also not the only one. And as P.T. Barnum once famously remarked, "A sucker is born every minute." There is no doubt that there are many sincere Red Shirts -- even intelligent, moral ones. But please don't ever try to make me believe that every person wearing red threads is ideologically aligned with whatever you suppose the Red movement believes at any given moment. Even the leaders - both those that Kwanchai exposed and those he did not - can't say their own personal beliefs are the same as whatever their 'Comprimise Statement of Philosophy of the Moment' might be. You're smart enough to recognize that it always takes days and days of fighting among the leaders to come up with any mission statement that they are all willing to espouse expressly because they DON't agree. If they all believed the same thing, it would take only five minutes. For example, how long would you think they would have to debate each other before they could agree that having sufficient food to eat is a good thing, and starvation is bad?

If the leaders can't figure out what it is that "Red Shirts" want, then how can you say that "the Red Shirts" have discovered a philosophy that they will never give up? They've discovered scores of philosophies perhaps, but there is no one philosophy of the Red Shirts. Now if you want me to believe that they've found a METHOD to feel empowered, I would have to agree. Unfortunately, for the moment it still seems like this Red Shirt thing is a tool and not a goal, and the followers have not yet caught on. Whether it can ever evolve into the thing you think it is now has yet to be seen.

Personally, I wish I was wrong because the sales pitch is certainly enticing. Of course I remember when Pol Pot came into power he changed the name of Cambodia to be Democratic Kampuchea even though there was nothing democratic about it and about 5% of the population was tortured and murdered by that "democratic" government before the rest of the populace caught on. I guess sweet words and fancy slogans can carry a movement only so far. Let us all hope that things develop in a positive direction.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Only a few months old? You don't dispute the fact that Thaksin does pay the Red Shirt leaders, which implies that you accept that he does.

...

Without funding, their massive gatherings and propaganda channels (newspapers, magazines, radio stations, satellite television channels) will likely cease. Who covers such expenses that would amount to millions of baht? It seems that you don't want to answer the question.

Yes, it is totally known and accepted by everyone that Thaksin is funding the reds.

Makes as much sense as "Are you trying to deny the sky is blue?"

This is the way things work here. Thaksin has bought the country fair and square - again, just like a man paying sin sot for his bride all over again, as my ex-wife recently proposed when trying to get back together with me (really! 8-)

What about it?

Whether you or me or anyone else views a given government as "legitimate" or not has no relevance to the realities of power. Thaksin currently holds all the cards. The yellows have to deal with that, and IMO they have.

When he is returned and pardoned if they try to make too much of a fuss IMO there may well be full-scale civil war. I think he's been very restrained in waiting so long so far. . .

[nurofiend]

CalgaryII, you may have much to say with great insights, but your style is one of a political propagandist, and so you are not believable. You write of the insincerity of others and yet your own words seem so practiced that it is hard to imagine you speaking without a soapbox. I, too, spend much time among the so-called Red Shirts. One of my own relatives was there at Central World and counted as one of your dedicated soldiers (I mean "strongly motivated, freedom-loving comrades"). He, like his friends, came expecting only to stay a week at the most. It was a fun thing to do during his boring unemployment of the off-season. And he, like his friends, were physically threatened when he told the group leader that it was no longer fun and he wanted to go home. I am relieved to say that even though he was intimidated to stay in the crowd against his will and against his beliefs and against the law, he was not injured when the government was forced to carry out their duties to the country and restore order. Will he again trust those leaders that had confiscated his ID card to prevent him from leaving? Well, he would trust them to pay him, because every day at 5 PM when he was forced to check in in order to get his pay, they came through as they promised. But does he even for a second think that they used him in this way for his own good? Please. He is uneducated, not ignorant.

I would not generalize and say every Red Shirt is now older and wiser, but surely this man is also not the only one. And as P.T. Barnum once famously remarked, "A sucker is born every minute." There is no doubt that there are many sincere Red Shirts -- even intelligent, moral ones. But please don't ever try to make me believe that every person wearing red threads is ideologically aligned with whatever you suppose the Red movement believes at any given moment. Even the leaders - both those that Kwanchai exposed and those he did not - can't say their own personal beliefs are the same as whatever their 'Comprimise Statement of Philosophy of the Moment' might be. You're smart enough to recognize that it always takes days and days of fighting among the leaders to come up with any mission statement that they are all willing to espouse expressly because they DON't agree. If they all believed the same thing, it would take only five minutes. For example, how long would you think they would have to debate each other before they could agree that having sufficient food to eat is a good thing, and starvation is bad?

If the leaders can't figure out what it is that "Red Shirts" want, then how can you say that "the Red Shirts" have discovered a philosophy that they will never give up? They've discovered scores of philosophies perhaps, but there is no one philosophy of the Red Shirts. Now if you want me to believe that they've found a METHOD to feel empowered, I would have to agree. Unfortunately, for the moment it still seems like this Red Shirt thing is a tool and not a goal, and the followers have not yet caught on. Whether it can ever evolve into the thing you think it is now has yet to be seen.

Personally, I wish I was wrong because the sales pitch is certainly enticing. Of course I remember when Pol Pot came into power he changed the name of Cambodia to be Democratic Kampuchea even though there was nothing democratic about it and about 5% of the population was tortured and murdered by that "democratic" government before the rest of the populace caught on. I guess sweet words and fancy slogans can carry a movement only so far. Let us all hope that things develop in a positive direction.

what's your relatives name?

edit: i don't really want to know, but you get my drift.

i know a thai guy who abhisit asked to break yinglucks legs

Edited April 7, 2012 by nurofiend