Origins Of Karma

[canuckamuck]

Why the distinction between sentient and non sentient?

Is this arbitrary?

[jmdf103]

Why the distinction between sentient and non sentient?

Is this arbitrary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

the ability to be conscious/aware is key, but it seems eastern philosophy defines it different.

Edited April 9, 2012 by jmdf103

[canuckamuck]

I wasn't asking what is the distinction, I was asking why they make a distinction.

[JurgenG]

^ Because we need to eat living creatures, that's the way we are.

As far as scientists are concerned, vegetables, fishes, animals, human beings ... are all living creatures, no differences between them. There is a good reason why there is a food chain. We can't extract energy from the sun light as some living creatures can do. We need to eat them to get energy. There are also good reason why we need to eat fish and meat. That's why it's called a food chain.

But some people can't accept that. A baby lamb is more cute than a carrot or a broccoli. And we can find a way around. So some people made up stories about "sentient" and "non sentient".

We can't survive without eating living creatures. It's a fact. I don't see how denying this fact will get us closer to enlightenment.

[fabianfred]

In Buddhism the killing of microbes and viruses is not considered to have any karmic consequence.

Is it not a matter of fairness and justice that a being which causes other beings to suffer should get eventually punished for their actions? The law of karma provides these consequences. Just being afraid of being punished for evil actions is one way to avoid unskillful acts, but not avery good reason.

A better reason is to do good just for the love of good, bringing pleasure to other beings, and not hoping for anyhting in return.

Beings existing in the animal realm do not stay there forever...they also eventually get reborn in the human or higher realms....just as humans fall into the lower realms or go to higher realms...all depending upon karma.

The law of karma is too complex for any but a Buddha to understand...........why this being was born as a dog and that as a butterfly...?? We can only unbderstand the basics....not the fine details.

[rockyysdt]

Rockyysdtd, I've seen that Buddha quote many times. But it's confusing. According to the storys about the Buddha, in the first watch of the night he became enlightened, he seen many of his past lifes, many. If everything ends when we die, how could he have seen ANY past lifes, and he talked many times about, if you do this or that, you will have only 7 more earthly rebirths and in some cases only 1 more? Can you explain this please?

From what I have learned there are a number of completely conflicting teachings.

In some the Buddha is quite clear the Buddha is teaching life within a physical world and that aversion, greed & delusion revolves around our conditioning.

In others, as the one you refer to, things appear metaphysical.

I don't know the answer and find myself at a crossroad.

My current position is to concentrate on practice, but as the Buddha taught, remain unattached to things outside the known world, such as stream entry, multiple lives, and Nibanna the place.

They revolve around ego, and, I feel, can only hinder practice.

To begin with, if you treat your life as though you have a number of shots at the pinnacle, then you may not give it your best shot.

In the mean time, exploring the Buddhas teachings via scholarly means may uncover illumination.

I'd hate to devote a lifetime on incorrect practice or belief.

One thing I do know.

None of us is capable of knowing anything metaphysical, therefore we cannot explore or learn for ourselves, outside of awakening.

From early scripture, scholars are suggesting that the Buddha was teaching us to be free from our conditioned state and the shackles of religion.

I declare that it is in this fathom long carcass,

with its perceptions and thoughts,

that there is the world,

the origin of the world,

the cessation of the world,

and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

I think the Buddha can't be clearer with this.

Within it there is nothing metaphysical.

It appears that scholars such as Buddhagosa saw and framed a religion.

The Buddha became deified.

Edited April 9, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Beings existing in the animal realm do not stay there forever...they also eventually get reborn in the human or higher realms....just as humans fall into the lower realms or go to higher realms...all depending upon karma.

Out of interest Fred.

Did the Buddha remember of quote remembering past lives as an alien on other worlds?

In an infinite world and with new discoveries going on such as observations of planets around far star systems, one would imagine that re birth may involve places other than the Earth.

Edited April 9, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

The teaching on Kamma as the Buddha defined it is about volitional action (ie the motivation of the action), this is usually translated as intention but I think that is misleading.

So from that point of view kamma only applies to intelligent beings as only they act with a motivation rather than being driven by instinct.

However the concept of kamma predates the Buddha, a far more important aspect of the Buddhas teaching in my opinion is conditionality, kamma is a subset or teaching model of this.

Conditionality is basically every affect has a cause every cause creates an affect, everything is constantly changing according to causes and conditions. This is of course an impersonal law, however if one understands how conditionality works one is much more likely to avoid unwise action.

It's not about me sitting down and calculating how many good deeds I need to do to compensate for all those bad deeds, or working out what I must have done to deserve what I got, but it's about understanding that every action influences the future in one way or another and in understanding this one takes more care.

[camerata]

i guess it depends on your definition of sentient, for me a mosquito is not sentient just the same as microbes.

But not to a Buddhist. A mosquito experiences dukkha (suffering).

Why the distinction between sentient and non sentient?

Is this arbitrary?

No. The Buddha said, "I teach suffering, and the way out of suffering." So the key to everything was whether a living organism could suffer or not. If it experienced dukkha, it was considered sentient and it could/would be reborn over and over until/unless it attained nibbana.

In "An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics" Peter Harvey (p151)

'sentience, the ability to experience and to suffer, and the related ability, in this or a future life, to transcend suffering by attaining enlightenment'

and

'The flux of consciousness from a previous being is a necessary condition for the arising and development in the womb of a body (rupa) endowed with mental abilities which amount to sentience (nama): feeling, identification, volition, sensory stimulation and attention (S.II.3-4)'

[rockyysdt]

No. The Buddha said, "I teach suffering, and the way out of suffering." So the key to everything was whether a living organism could suffer or not. If it experienced dukkha, it was considered sentient and it could/would be reborn over and over until/unless it attained nibbana.

'The flux of consciousness from a previous being is a necessary condition for the arising and development in the womb of a body (rupa) endowed with mental abilities which amount to sentience (nama): feeling, identification, volition, sensory stimulation and attention (S.II.3-4)'

The problem with this model is that there is nothing inside to be re born.

Therefore, if you extinguish the necessary condition for the arising and development in the womb of a body (rupa), you will wipe out a lineage of sentient beings who will not suffer but will also never exist.

I suspect, given the choice, a sentient being would choose life over non existence, over avoidance of suffering.

On the other hand if you stop re birth (moment to moment) by achieving awakening then you live the remainder of your life free of dhukka.

The Buddha said, there is nothing inside (soul).

Within you:

there is the world,

the origin of the world,

the cessation of the world,

Edited April 9, 2012 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

Beings existing in the animal realm do not stay there forever...they also eventually get reborn in the human or higher realms....just as humans fall into the lower realms or go to higher realms...all depending upon karma.

Out of interest Fred.

Did the Buddha remember of quote remembering past lives as an alien on other worlds?

In an infinite world and with new discoveries going on such as observations of planets around far star systems, one would imagine that re birth may involve places other than the Earth.

Something I also found to be of interest.....considering that a new aeon implies a new Earth.

In his Jataka tales he refers to creatures, the sun and moon etc. known to us. Does this mean that the Jataka tales were only taken from incidents in the Boddhisattas lives during this very aeon?

We know that he said that the bones from a single being, travelling on and journeying on during an aeon, if collected into a pile would exceed the size of a very large mountain...therefore the number of lives would far exceed the 500+ mentioned in the Jataka.

I personally believe that a being would only be reborn upon this Earth or its sucessor, since it has created karma with those fellow beings.

I have never visited Argentina and know nobody from there, so i have no karmic link there, so i doubt I would be reborn there...whereas I am likely to be reborn here in thailand due to the karmic links I have formed here.

I therefore doubt one would be reborn upon another planet.......however if other planets have sentient life...perhaps they also have human realms and animal realms and heavens and hells ...and perhaps Buddhas???

Once one reaches the state of nibbana then one could logically be in a state of oneness with all similarly escaped Buddhas and Arahants from anywhere......IMHO.

If the Buddha wished to tell a story about a lifetime upon another planet he would invite ridicule by describing creatures and landscapes alien to those listening so he would describe them in terms that they could accept and understand.

[hookedondhamma]

Fred, as far as karmic links go, I do agree with you about the karmic links formed while living here in Thailand. As far as Argentina, or any other country for that matter, perhaps we don't have links in this lifetime, but possibly from past lifetimes - who knows, the karma that we've done (also unknown) hasn't taken fruit yet (the late Aajahn Pannya stated that it is said in order for one to know ones past lives, one must be very, very aware at the time of death from the beginning to end (so much information in his Dhamma talks). It's pretty apparent our past karma has brought us to Thailand, but how would we have known that when we were children? Perhaps we'll end up in some other country in this lifetime, who knows? ;-)

Also, the Buddha does speak of Dhamma pervading everything, along with the three thousand-fold world systems. If I remember correctly, what applies in this applies in others, so I take it as there must have been Buddhas in other places, not just on earth as we know it.

Good comment about the Jatakas, I was thinking of those, too.

[fabianfred]

The Buddha's statement about ten-thousand fold world systems to me sounds like he meant galaxies, since he also mentioned cartwheels in the skies.

Perhaps the Aeon we hear Buddhism talk of is not a cycle of the universe from one big-bang to the next, but the life and death of a galaxy....also a long time I would imagine.

[Jawnie]

Why the distinction between sentient and non sentient?

Is this arbitrary?

I think in the practical sense, it comes down to whether a being experiences suffering, on its own or when killed. Non-sentient beings would not experience suffering by this definition, such as when you pick a flower or dig up a potato.

Whether or not a being is animate may be a factor, such as a mosquito. Certainly we are admonished to not kill flies or mosquitos because 'they are alive.'

Edited May 1, 2012 by Jawnie

[Jawnie]

All beings existing within the six realms do so because of the result of their previous actions, ie. karma. The gods in the god realms down to the beings in the hell realms. Existence in these two realms is said to continue for extremely long periods of time. Eventually, when the karma which caused them to be reborn in those realms is exhausted, they are reborn into another realm, equally because of their karma. It is said that this cycle had no beginning and simply has always occurred. I recall a sutra where someone asked the Buddha about the origins of this process, but the Buddha "fell silent" and did not respond.

The point is that all beings from the god realms, human, animal, hungry ghost, and hell realms are there because of their previous karma. For various reasons regarding the specific obscurations associated with each realm, they do not hear the Dharma nor do they practice it. For the god realms, their lives are so perfect, they never experience suffering or feel the need to practice. For those in the hell realms, their suffering is so intense, all possibility for practice is foreclosed by the intense suffering. Even so, there is said to be a Buddha for each realm who manifests in ways that assist the beings.

The human realm is considered pivotal in this process. Humans beings are said to have "freedoms and endowments" providing them with the opportunity to hear and practice the Dharma. But this can be limited even within the human realm. Below is the cut-and-paste of these freedoms and endowments for humans.

Humans can have 8 freedoms:

1. I am not in hell being continuously tortured

2. I am not living as a hungry ghost, always having hunger and thirst

3. I am not an ignorant animal

4. I have some feeling for good and bad

5. I am able to study religion

6. The teachings of the Buddha are now available

7. I have a healthy mind, not crazy

8. I am not a god, only indulging in pleasures

Humans can have 10 endowments:

- 5 Personal:

1. I am a human being

2. I have access to the teachings of the Buddha

3. I have all my organs

4. I have not killed my parents or bodhisattvas etc.

5. I have the possibility to choose my life philosophy or religion freely

- 5 Circumstantial:

6. A Buddha has come in this era

7. He has taught the Dharma

8. The Dharma is still available in the world

9. People are still practising Dharma

10. Others generally have love in their hearts

Edited May 1, 2012 by Jawnie

[Xangsamhua]

All beings existing within the six realms do so because of the result of their previous actions, ie. karma. The gods in the god realms down to the beings in the hell realms. Existence in these two realms is said to continue for extremely long periods of time. Eventually, when the karma which caused them to be reborn in those realms is exhausted, they are reborn into another realm, equally because of their karma. It is said that this cycle had no beginning and simply has always occurred. I recall a sutra where someone asked the Buddha about the origins of this process, but the Buddha "fell silent" and did not respond.

The point is that all beings from the god realms, human, animal, hungry ghost, and hell realms are there because of their previous karma. For various reasons regarding the specific obscurations associated with each realm, they do not hear the Dharma nor do they practice it. For the god realms, their lives are so perfect, they never experience suffering or feel the need to practice. For those in the hell realms, their suffering is so intense, all possibility for practice is foreclosed by the intense suffering. Even so, there is said to be a Buddha for each realm who manifests in ways that assist the beings.

The human realm is considered pivotal in this process. Humans beings are said to have "freedoms and endowments" providing them with the opportunity to hear and practice the Dharma. But this can be limited even within the human realm. Below is the cut-and-paste of these freedoms and endowments for humans.

Humans can have 8 freedoms:

1. I am not in hell being continuously tortured

2. I am not living as a hungry ghost, always having hunger and thirst

3. I am not an ignorant animal

4. I have some feeling for good and bad

5. I am able to study religion

6. The teachings of the Buddha are now available

7. I have a healthy mind, not crazy

8. I am not a god, only indulging in pleasures

Humans can have 10 endowments:

- 5 Personal:

1. I am a human being

2. I have access to the teachings of the Buddha

3. I have all my organs

4. I have not killed my parents or bodhisattvas etc.

5. I have the possibility to choose my life philosophy or religion freely

- 5 Circumstantial:

6. A Buddha has come in this era

7. He has taught the Dharma

8. The Dharma is still available in the world

9. People are still practising Dharma

10. Others generally have love in their hearts

I found the above in http://viewonbuddhis...meditation.html

Quite a good site. Thanks Jawnie.

[lungmi]

All beings existing within the six realms do so because of the result of their previous actions, ie. karma. The gods in the god realms down to the beings in the hell realms. Existence in these two realms is said to continue for extremely long periods of time. Eventually, when the karma which caused them to be reborn in those realms is exhausted, they are reborn into another realm, equally because of their karma. It is said that this cycle had no beginning and simply has always occurred. I recall a sutra where someone asked the Buddha about the origins of this process, but the Buddha "fell silent" and did not respond.

The point is that all beings from the god realms, human, animal, hungry ghost, and hell realms are there because of their previous karma. For various reasons regarding the specific obscurations associated with each realm, they do not hear the Dharma nor do they practice it. For the god realms, their lives are so perfect, they never experience suffering or feel the need to practice. For those in the hell realms, their suffering is so intense, all possibility for practice is foreclosed by the intense suffering. Even so, there is said to be a Buddha for each realm who manifests in ways that assist the beings.

The human realm is considered pivotal in this process. Humans beings are said to have "freedoms and endowments" providing them with the opportunity to hear and practice the Dharma. But this can be limited even within the human realm. Below is the cut-and-paste of these freedoms and endowments for humans.

Humans can have 8 freedoms:

1. I am not in hell being continuously tortured

2. I am not living as a hungry ghost, always having hunger and thirst

3. I am not an ignorant animal

4. I have some feeling for good and bad

5. I am able to study religion

6. The teachings of the Buddha are now available

7. I have a healthy mind, not crazy

8. I am not a god, only indulging in pleasures

Humans can have 10 endowments:

- 5 Personal:

1. I am a human being

2. I have access to the teachings of the Buddha

3. I have all my organs

4. I have not killed my parents or bodhisattvas etc.

5. I have the possibility to choose my life philosophy or religion freely

- 5 Circumstantial:

6. A Buddha has come in this era

7. He has taught the Dharma

8. The Dharma is still available in the world

9. People are still practising Dharma

10. Others generally have love in their hearts

I found the above in http://viewonbuddhis...meditation.html

Quite a good site. Thanks Jawnie.

All beings existing within the six realms do so because of the result of their previous actions, ie. karma. The gods in the god realms down to the beings in the hell realms. Existence in these two realms is said to continue for extremely long periods of time. Eventually, when the karma which caused them to be reborn in those realms is exhausted, they are reborn into another realm, equally because of their karma. It is said that this cycle had no beginning and simply has always occurred. I recall a sutra where someone asked the Buddha about the origins of this process, but the Buddha "fell silent" and did not respond.

The point is that all beings from the god realms, human, animal, hungry ghost, and hell realms are there because of their previous karma. For various reasons regarding the specific obscurations associated with each realm, they do not hear the Dharma nor do they practice it. For the god realms, their lives are so perfect, they never experience suffering or feel the need to practice. For those in the hell realms, their suffering is so intense, all possibility for practice is foreclosed by the intense suffering. Even so, there is said to be a Buddha for each realm who manifests in ways that assist the beings.

The human realm is considered pivotal in this process. Humans beings are said to have "freedoms and endowments" providing them with the opportunity to hear and practice the Dharma. But this can be limited even within the human realm. Below is the cut-and-paste of these freedoms and endowments for humans.

Humans can have 8 freedoms:

1. I am not in hell being continuously tortured

2. I am not living as a hungry ghost, always having hunger and thirst

3. I am not an ignorant animal

4. I have some feeling for good and bad

5. I am able to study religion

6. The teachings of the Buddha are now available

7. I have a healthy mind, not crazy

8. I am not a god, only indulging in pleasures

Humans can have 10 endowments:

- 5 Personal:

1. I am a human being

2. I have access to the teachings of the Buddha

3. I have all my organs

4. I have not killed my parents or bodhisattvas etc.

5. I have the possibility to choose my life philosophy or religion freely

- 5 Circumstantial:

6. A Buddha has come in this era

7. He has taught the Dharma

8. The Dharma is still available in the world

9. People are still practising Dharma

10. Others generally have love in their hearts

I found the above in http://viewonbuddhis...meditation.html

Quite a good site. Thanks Jawnie.

Verse 1. Suffering Follows The Evil-Doer

Mind precedes all knowables,

mind's their chief, mind-made are they.

If with a corrupted mind

one should either speak or act

dukkha follows caused by that,

as does the wheel the ox's hoof.

Explanation: All that we experience begins with thought. Our words and deeds spring from thought. If we speak or act with evil thoughts, unpleasant circumstances and experiences inevitably result. Wherever we go, we create bad circumstances because we carry bad thoughts. This is very much like the wheel of a cart following the hoofs of the ox yoked to the cart. The cart-wheel, along with the heavy load of the cart, keeps following the draught oxen. The animal is bound to this heavy load and cannot leave it.

----

Kamma of a previous life? Forget it, it isn't a correct interpretation of the Authentical Buddhism. The Verse 1 of the Dhammapada

clears it: Clear your mind, calm down, be cool , clean your mind and you have the freedoms: Now. Former lifes and future lives in whatever realm are irrelevant.

[fabianfred]

Kamma of a previous life? Forget it, it isn't a correct interpretation of the Authentical Buddhism. The Verse 1 of the Dhammapada

clears it: Clear your mind, calm down, be cool , clean your mind and you have the freedoms: Now. Former lifes and future lives in whatever realm are irrelevant.

Wrong view!

[rockyysdt]

Kamma of a previous life? Forget it, it isn't a correct interpretation of the Authentical Buddhism. The Verse 1 of the Dhammapada

clears it: Clear your mind, calm down, be cool , clean your mind and you have the freedoms: Now. Former lifes and future lives in whatever realm are irrelevant.

Wrong view!

Hi Fred.

Can you elaborate?

[fabianfred]

Denying the existence of rebirth in the various realms we call samsara and the cause which is karma past and present is not in line with Right View which is the first of the Noble Eigthfold Path....

....but then who am I to correct you.....

you are blocking yourself from reaching stream-entry by having such views....

never mind...there is always the next Buddha's time to get another chance....( a lot of suffering before then though.....)

[Jawnie]

Multiple lifetimes and reincarnation are basic tenets of Buddhist philosophy, regardless of which school or vehicle one follows.

There are relative teaching circumstances where introducing the idea "forget previous karma" is relevant, but it typically is to prod the practitioner to focus on present experience as a specific meditation in order to emphasize something going on at that moment only.

[rockyysdt]

Denying the existence of rebirth in the various realms we call samsara and the cause which is karma past and present is not in line with Right View which is the first of the Noble Eigthfold Path....

....but then who am I to correct you.....

you are blocking yourself from reaching stream-entry by having such views....

never mind...there is always the next Buddha's time to get another chance....( a lot of suffering before then though.....)

Hi Fred.

I had a look at the first Noble Eightfold Path and no where within it does it mention re birth or relms.

quote:

Right view

Right view (samyag-dṛṣṭi / sammā-diṭṭhi) can also be translated as "right perspective", "right outlook" or "right understanding". It is the right way of looking at life, nature, and the world as they really are. It is to understand how reality works. It acts as the reasoning for someone to start practicing the path. It explains the reasons for human existence, suffering, sickness, aging, death, the existence of greed, hatred, and delusion. It gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors. Right view begins with concepts and propositional knowledge, but through the practice of right concentration, it gradually becomes transmuted into wisdom, which can eradicate the fetters of the mind. Understanding of right view will inspire the person to lead a virtuous life in line with right view. In the Pāli and Chinese canons, it is explained thus:^{[16][17][18][19][20][21]}

And what is right view? Knowledge with reference to suffering, knowledge with reference to the origination of suffering, knowledge with reference to the cessation of suffering, knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering: This is called right view.

There are two types of right view:

1. View with taints: this view is mundane. Having this type of view will bring merit and will support the favourable existence of the sentient being in the realm of samsara.
   
2. View without taints: this view is supramundane. It is a factor of the path and will lead the holder of this view toward self-awakening and liberation from the realm of samsara.
   

Right view has many facets; its elementary form is suitable for lay followers, while the other form, which requires deeper understanding, is suitable for monastics. Usually, it involves understanding the following reality:

1. Moral law of karma: Every action (by way of body, speech, and mind) will have karmic results (a.k.a. reaction). Wholesome and unwholesome actions will produce results and effects that correspond with the nature of that action. It is the right view about the moral process of the world.
   
2. The three characteristics: everything that arises will cease (impermanence). Mental and body phenomena are impermanent, source of suffering and not-self.
   
3. Suffering: Birth, aging, sickness, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, distress, and despair are suffering. Not being able to obtain what one wants is also suffering. The arising of craving is the proximate cause of the arising of suffering and the cessation of craving is the proximate cause of the cessation of the suffering. The quality of ignorance is the root cause of the arising of suffering, and the elimination of this quality is the root cause of the cessation of suffering. The way leading to the cessation of suffering is the noble eightfold path.^[22] This type of right view is explained in terms of Four Noble Truths.
   

Right view for monastics is explained in detail in the Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta ("Right View Discourse"), in which Ven. Sariputta instructs that right view can alternately be attained by the thorough understanding of the unwholesome and the wholesome, the four nutriments, the twelve nidanas or the three taints.^[23] "Wrong view" arising from ignorance (avijja), is the precondition for wrong intention, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness and wrong concentration.^[24][25] The practitioner should use right effort to abandon the wrong view and to enter into right view. Right mindfulness is used to constantly remain in right view.

The purpose of right view is to clear one's path of the majority of confusion, misunderstanding, and deluded thinking. It is a means to gain right understanding of reality. Right view should be held with a flexible, open mind, without clinging to that view as a dogmatic position.^[26][27][28] In this way, right view becomes a route to liberation rather than an obstacle.

Can I ask?

As long as I practice the eightfold path well, why would keeping an open mind, regarding re birth being moment to moment vs many lives, result in blocking myself in terms of the path?

Edited May 5, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Multiple lifetimes and reincarnation are basic tenets of Buddhist philosophy, regardless of which school or vehicle one follows.

Hi Jawnie.

Reincarnation is the religious and philosophical belief that the soul or spirit, after biological death, begins a new life in a new body that may be human, animal or spiritual depending on the moral quality of the previous life's actions. This doctrine is a central tenet of Indian religions.

Reincarnation has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

Also, the Buddha taught that a soul or spirit does not exist and that there is nothing inside us to be reincarnated.

Edited May 5, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

Multiple lifetimes and reincarnation are basic tenets of Buddhist philosophy, regardless of which school or vehicle one follows.

Reincarnation has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

Also, the Buddha taught that a soul or spirit does not exist and that there is nothing inside us to be reincarnated.

Well, it could have something to do with the Buddha's teaching, though the mechanics of rebirth and the nature of what is reborn are subject to interpretation and theory. Something continues incarnated in a further life, but it's not Rocky 2.

The absence of any underpinning ground for one's existence as an integrated being does present problems for Buddhist teaching on rebirth, or reincarnation, though there are explanations. Yogacara provides a mechanism through store consciousness (alayavijnana), but its philosophy of "consciousness-only" seems close to Brahmanism, especially Advaita. The name suggests some common ground.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Xangsamhua

[camerata]

The Buddha was quite explicit in defining the content of what he called right view. One endowed with right view would understand the world as follows: "He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: ‘There is that which is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world’" (Majjhima Nikaya 41.14).

This formula implies that the real existential basis of our being is governed by the laws of karma ("result of good and bad actions") and rebirth ("there is this world and the other world"), including the possibility of rebirth into the deva realms ("spontaneously born beings"). This is difficult for some Western Buddhists to accept, and there is an active project to formulate a Buddhism that does not include these teachings.

http://buddhanet.net...ud/ebdha336.htm

[rockyysdt]

The Buddha was quite explicit in defining the content of what he called right view. One endowed with right view would understand the world as follows: "He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: ‘There is that which is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world’" (Majjhima Nikaya 41.14).

This formula implies that the real existential basis of our being is governed by the laws of karma ("result of good and bad actions") and rebirth ("there is this world and the other world"), including the possibility of rebirth into the deva realms ("spontaneously born beings"). This is difficult for some Western Buddhists to accept, and there is an active project to formulate a Buddhism that does not include these teachings.

http://buddhanet.net...ud/ebdha336.htm

Thanks.

Does spontaneously born imply being born as a Deva?

Can it also suggest being spontaneously born as a physical being?

Can "this world and other world" imply living without aversion, delusion & greed, or being awakened?

For example, if I lived out my life awakened, could this be like being in the other world experientially in comparison to being in samsara (unawakened)?

This also fits into Nirvana being a verb or similar in comparison to being a noun or place.

It's just that I'm a little uncomfortable with implications if they are subject to interpretation.

Edited May 6, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

Multiple lifetimes and reincarnation are basic tenets of Buddhist philosophy, regardless of which school or vehicle one follows.

Hi Jawnie.

Reincarnation is the religious and philosophical belief that the soul or spirit, after biological death, begins a new life in a new body that may be human, animal or spiritual depending on the moral quality of the previous life's actions. This doctrine is a central tenet of Indian religions.

Reincarnation has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

Also, the Buddha taught that a soul or spirit does not exist and that there is nothing inside us to be reincarnated.

Rockyttt: you cite the traditional Theravadin view but the Buddha taught about karma and reincarnation extensively in his Jataka stories, for example. And, even though you correctly cite the basics on the absence of a transmigrating self, it is still a wrong view because it is Nilhist. That is the belief there is no existence before or after this one. Are you saying that our current lifetimes will be our one, and only, lives?

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jawnie

[Jawnie]

Denying the existence of rebirth in the various realms we call samsara and the cause which is karma past and present is not in line with Right View which is the first of the Noble Eigthfold Path....

....but then who am I to correct you.....

you are blocking yourself from reaching stream-entry by having such views....

never mind...there is always the next Buddha's time to get another chance....( a lot of suffering before then though.....)

Hi Fred.

I had a look at the first Noble Eightfold Path and no where within it does it mention re birth or relms.

quote:

Right view

Right view (samyag-dṛṣṭi / sammā-diṭṭhi) can also be translated as "right perspective", "right outlook" or "right understanding". It is the right way of looking at life, nature, and the world as they really are. It is to understand how reality works. It acts as the reasoning for someone to start practicing the path. It explains the reasons for human existence, suffering, sickness, aging, death, the existence of greed, hatred, and delusion. It gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors. Right view begins with concepts and propositional knowledge, but through the practice of right concentration, it gradually becomes transmuted into wisdom, which can eradicate the fetters of the mind. Understanding of right view will inspire the person to lead a virtuous life in line with right view. In the Pāli and Chinese canons, it is explained thus:^{[16][17][18][19][20][21]}

And what is right view? Knowledge with reference to suffering, knowledge with reference to the origination of suffering, knowledge with reference to the cessation of suffering, knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering: This is called right view.

There are two types of right view:

1. View with taints: this view is mundane. Having this type of view will bring merit and will support the favourable existence of the sentient being in the realm of samsara.
   
2. View without taints: this view is supramundane. It is a factor of the path and will lead the holder of this view toward self-awakening and liberation from the realm of samsara.
   

Right view has many facets; its elementary form is suitable for lay followers, while the other form, which requires deeper understanding, is suitable for monastics. Usually, it involves understanding the following reality:

1. Moral law of karma: Every action (by way of body, speech, and mind) will have karmic results (a.k.a. reaction). Wholesome and unwholesome actions will produce results and effects that correspond with the nature of that action. It is the right view about the moral process of the world.
   
2. The three characteristics: everything that arises will cease (impermanence). Mental and body phenomena are impermanent, source of suffering and not-self.
   
3. Suffering: Birth, aging, sickness, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, distress, and despair are suffering. Not being able to obtain what one wants is also suffering. The arising of craving is the proximate cause of the arising of suffering and the cessation of craving is the proximate cause of the cessation of the suffering. The quality of ignorance is the root cause of the arising of suffering, and the elimination of this quality is the root cause of the cessation of suffering. The way leading to the cessation of suffering is the noble eightfold path.^[22] This type of right view is explained in terms of Four Noble Truths.
   

Right view for monastics is explained in detail in the Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta ("Right View Discourse"), in which Ven. Sariputta instructs that right view can alternately be attained by the thorough understanding of the unwholesome and the wholesome, the four nutriments, the twelve nidanas or the three taints.^[23] "Wrong view" arising from ignorance (avijja), is the precondition for wrong intention, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness and wrong concentration.^[24][25] The practitioner should use right effort to abandon the wrong view and to enter into right view. Right mindfulness is used to constantly remain in right view.

The purpose of right view is to clear one's path of the majority of confusion, misunderstanding, and deluded thinking. It is a means to gain right understanding of reality. Right view should be held with a flexible, open mind, without clinging to that view as a dogmatic position.^[26][27][28] In this way, right view becomes a route to liberation rather than an obstacle.

Can I ask?

As long as I practice the eightfold path well, why would keeping an open mind, regarding re birth being moment to moment vs many lives, result in blocking myself in terms of the path?

What if, on your last day alive, you committed all the worst 'sins' according to Buddhism: killed your parents, killed an arhant, lied, slandered, had all manner of sexual misconduct....and then died? If each of these actions creates negative karma, would you escape that karma if you died immediately upon committing all these actions?

[camerata]

Yes, "reborn spontaneously" is a term used in the Canon meaning reborn in a heavenly realm as opposed to the earthly realms (human and animal) that we are familiar with. This distinction doesn't make sense in terms of "moment-to-moment" rebirth.

Throughout the Canon we see the Buddha talking about inhabitants of other realms, even teaching the Dhamma to gods and devas, so again it doesn't make much sense to say this is all in the mind. But anything can be subject to different interpretations. If you are uncomfortable with that there will be no end to your doubts.

Is it so hard to accept that the Buddha experienced other realms and beings as a result of the abilities he gained through meditation?

[rockyysdt]

Multiple lifetimes and reincarnation are basic tenets of Buddhist philosophy, regardless of which school or vehicle one follows.

Hi Jawnie.

Reincarnation is the religious and philosophical belief that the soul or spirit, after biological death, begins a new life in a new body that may be human, animal or spiritual depending on the moral quality of the previous life's actions. This doctrine is a central tenet of Indian religions.

Reincarnation has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

Also, the Buddha taught that a soul or spirit does not exist and that there is nothing inside us to be reincarnated.

Rockyttt: you cite the traditional Theravadin view but the Buddha taught about karma and reincarnation extensively in his Jataka stories, for example. And, even though you correctly cite the basics on the absence of a transmigrating self, it is still a wrong view because it is Nilhist. That is the belief there is no existence before or after this one. Are you saying that our current lifetimes will be our one, and only, lives?

It's just that others interpret what the Buddha taught as follows:

"Reincarnation" normally is understood to be the transmigration of a soul to another body after death.

There is no such teaching in Buddhism.

One of the most fundamental doctrines of Buddhism is anatta, or anatman -- no soul or no self.

The closest to reincarnation is "re birth", but there is no permanent essence of an individual self that survives death.

Conscious thoughts simply arise and perish with no "thinker" behind them.

When we die, the molecules which constitute us, don't disappear but continue on in different combinations.

As to whether kharma shapes these into another life, we don't have experience of this.

But then, it seems there are a number of interpretations and no consensus.

Edited May 6, 2012 by rockyysdt