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[webfact]

Abhisit in '2-for-1' offer

The Nation

If Thaksin is not given amnesty, ex-PM and deputy would accept same fate

BANGKOK: -- Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva has offered to disqualify himself and his former deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban from any future amnesty if the same measure applies to ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra, while other people involved in the political conflict are set free.

He clearly was trying to emphasise that the government's push for reconciliation was ultimately aimed at whitewashing Thaksin's wrongdoings.

Abhisit was responding to a challenge from Pheu Thai MP and red-shirt leader Jatuporn Prompan that two representatives from each side - Abhisit and Suthep from the Democrat Party, and Jatuporn and Pheu Thai MP and red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua - should be exempted from any amnesty in the future.

"Let's do it this way. I offer two in exchange for one. Do not grant amnesty to me and Suthep, as well as Thaksin. I like this better," Abhisit said during the House of Representatives debate on reconciliation proposals on Thursday night.

The lower house debated whether to accept the proposals from the ad hoc House committee on national reconciliation and to forward them to the Cabinet for further action.

Abhisit, who served as prime minister in the previous government, and his then-deputy Suthep have been accused by the red shirts of "ordering the massacre of protesters" in the political unrest and riots in early 2010.

More than 90 people were killed during more than two months of street protests and occupations in Bangkok by the pro-Thaksin red shirts between March and May 2010. Among those killed were soldiers, police, protesters, passers-by, local residents and foreign journalists.

During the debate, Abhisit said rule of law should be upheld and that by offering general amnesty to everyone - as proposed by the House panel and backed by the government MPs - more conflict would be created.

"Don't try to involve Parliament to solve the problem of people who do not sincerely want to reconcile," Abhisit said. "Don't create a condition for new conflict. That's not a way to reconciliation. If there is sincerity for reconciliation, we the opposition will fully support the move."

Earlier in the debate, Jatuporn remarked that Abhisit once said he would not reconcile with "the terrorists" - people who wreaked havoc in Bangkok in 2010. Jatuporn, led the red-shirt protest, told the House meeting that his side also would not reconcile with "the murderers", referring to Abhisit and Suthep.

Abhisit responded by cautioning that "the terrorists" and "the murderers" would end up being in the same group of people. He was referring to reports that heavily armed men mingled among the red-shirt protesters.

Pheu Thai Party leader Yongyuth Wichaidit yesterday described Abhisit's challenge as "just rhetoric that cannot be put into action". "In law, general amnesty must be applied to everyone and nobody should be excluded," said Yongyuth, who is also deputy prime minister and interior minister.

Figures close to Thaksin could not be reached yesterday for comments about the matter.

After two days of debate in the lower house, 307 MPs early yesterday voted to support the reconciliation proposals and to forward them to the Cabinet for further action. There were two abstentions. The opposition Democrat MPs refused to vote in protest at what they described as a rush to have the measures passed as soon as possible.

Chief opposition whip Jurin Laksanavisit said the government missed a chance to avoid negative consequences of the rush by ignoring a suggestion from King Prajadhipok's Institute that broader debate of reconciliation was needed to prevent a new round of conflict.

-- The Nation 2012-04-07

[CalgaryII]

"He clearly was trying to emphasise that the government's push for reconciliation was ultimately aimed at whitewashing Thaksin's wrongdoings".

And that is what this 2-for-1 thing is all about. Just another brick for the criminalization wall the Opposition has been trying to build around their political nemesis..............Winning elections is not an amnesty-able matter. But what happened at R'song is very much subject to amnesty discussions. ...Not sure how amenable those directly affected through the loss of loved ones, or those who have been struggling with the effects of injuries since, would feel about those responsible being given a free ride............... Also with respect to Jatuporn and Nathawut, since when is anti-coupism an amnesty-able matter. Mr. Abhisit and Suthep on the other hand, have both political and homicidal liabilities, the latter for which they have a culpability which they are now trying to 'defer and delay"...................... This kind of 2-for-1 gamesmanship is advancement of Opposition agenda's and a 'kick in the head' for those referenced above, who are most directly affected to this day.

Edited April 7, 2012 by CalgaryII

[OzMick]

The offer is inherently unfair even at 2-for-1 because only the one needs a whitewash.

Edited April 7, 2012 by OzMick

[Siam Simon]

The offer is inherently unfair even at 2-for-1 because only the one needs a whitewash.

Good to see you acknowledging Suthep's shortcomings.

[OzMick]

The offer is inherently unfair even at 2-for-1 because only the one needs a whitewash.

Good to see you acknowledging Suthep's shortcomings.

Suthep is quite possibly guilty of a number of misdeeds, but innocent until proven so by a court. In regards to the red insurgency, that will be impossible to do IMHO.

[Siam Simon]

The offer is inherently unfair even at 2-for-1 because only the one needs a whitewash.

Good to see you acknowledging Suthep's shortcomings.

Suthep is quite possibly guilty of a number of misdeeds, but innocent until proven so by a court. In regards to the red insurgency, that will be impossible to do IMHO.

It was certainly strange that the video of him and Newin organising Blue Shirt thugs in Pattaya disappeared off the internet a while ago, but I suspect he still might be one of the sacrificial lambs of the current dodgy deals.

[CalgaryII]

The offer is inherently unfair even at 2-for-1 because only the one needs a whitewash.

Good to see you acknowledging Suthep's shortcomings.

Suthep is quite possibly guilty of a number of misdeeds, but innocent until proven so by a court. In regards to the red insurgency, that will be impossible to do IMHO.

It was certainly strange that the video of him and Newin organising Blue Shirt thugs in Pattaya disappeared off the internet a while ago, but I suspect he still might be one of the sacrificial lambs of the current dodgy deals.

A tad off topic but since the above poster brought it up, I saw photos yesterday, of Mr. Abhisit publically congratulating Newin on his four-year leadership of BJT. I have seen indications of the rats deserting the BJT ship, and both PTP and the Democrats are extending their political hospitality.

Edited April 7, 2012 by CalgaryII

[OzMick]

I understand that yesterday Mr. Abhisit publically congratulated Newin on his four-year leadership of BJT. I have seen indications of the rats deserting the BJT ship, and both PTP and the Democrats are extending their political hospitality.

"...... both PTP and the Democrats are extending their political hospitality."

A strange way of describing a democrat congratulating a former coalition partner.

An even stranger way of describing PTP and the reds cosying up to Sonthi at the cost of their pronounced outrage. What was the price? 30 pieces of silver, or just following orders?

[sparebox2]

Those who order the shooting, which lead to 92 death needs to be given life sentence.

Edited April 7, 2012 by sparebox2

[OzMick]

Those who order the shooting, which lead to 92 death needs to be given life sentence.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately the political conflict hinges on who bears that responsibility.

BTW do you realise that your 2 questions regarding other countries esteemed leaders are insulting to both?

Edited April 7, 2012 by OzMick

[jonclark]

For me the bigger picture is this. If you let everybody off with an amnesty, the law no longer becomes a deterent, not only for politicians butr for everybody in Thailand. The law will be toothless. Without the fear of the law to govern appropriate behaviour you learn fairly swiftly that if you do wrong, but can garner enough support and kick up a big enough stink, you'll get your way.

Maybe it would just be easier to get rid of all laws instead

Edited April 7, 2012 by jonclark

[jonclark]

For me the bigger picture is this. If you let everybody off with an amnesty, the law no longer becomes a deterent, not only for politicians butr for everybody in Thailand. The law will be toothless. Without the fear of the law to govern appropriate behaviour you learn fairly swiftly that if you do wrong, but can garner enough support and kick up a big enough stink, you'll get your way.

Maybe it would just be easier to get rid of all laws instead

As for Abhi and Suthep offer - good - let each side offer up its sacrifical lambs (Taksin and Abhisit, Suthep), proivde the public with the accounability it deserves.

Lets see if this is about Taksins amnesty or not? Lets see if PTP accepts, or not and squirms, wriggles and makes excuses for why this would be a bad idea.

Edited April 7, 2012 by jonclark

[Payboy]

Is Chuan having an incontinence moment?

[moe666]

Good luck finding a smoking gun in the hands of the ex PM or his deputy, but Big T is another matter he has been convicted in a court of law during the rule of a relative.

[sparebox2]

Those who order the shooting, which lead to 92 death needs to be given life sentence.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately the political conflict hinges on who bears that responsibility.

BTW do you realise that your 2 questions regarding other countries esteemed leaders are insulting to both?

My apology. No intention to insult any leaders, unless his/her name is Kim Jon Il, Mugabe, Than Shwe, Khamenei, Qaddafi, etc

Edited April 7, 2012 by sparebox2

[otherstuff1957]

We can expect to hear a deafening silence from Thaksin regarding this offer... though his lawyer will (has?) reply with some meaningless obfuscation.

Edited April 7, 2012 by otherstuff1957

[EvilDrSomkid]

TR @TeamKorn_DP: man accused of causing "91 deaths" refuses amnesty for himself, but the man who "has done no wrong" is doing everything he can to get amnesty... ironic

There is no genuine wish for reconcilation in this country. When Jatuporn and Natthawut speak of this it just seems a tad hypocritical.

The sad thing is that the truth about about who did what and with who's support during the Red Shirt "protests" will never come out.

Same for the Yellow Shirt protests.

Add to that the mystifying statements from Sonthi, it does not bode well. "Forget the past" Yeah, good idea buddy.

Let's all forget how the country got into this mess. It goes back further than 19/9/2006. It goes back further than the crash of 1997.

But let's all forget the past. Let's just fill our "history" books with a load of glorified <deleted>.

edit: Was looking for this because I think applies here:

The problem with Thai politics is the way in which politicians become MPs, it is a mixture of graft, corruption, money and connections, this applies to all parties. Some by sheer good fortune (from the national viewpoint), do have some ability, most are just lame ducks, some are a real liability. This pattern repeats at all levels of society, even at the village committee level. Abhisit impresses many farangs by his Oxford education and his ability to speak clear English, but this is just the icing on the cake, he can talk a good talk but rarely walks a good walk, at heart he is still a self seeking Thai. Indeed his Eton, Oxford background actually fosters elitism, if you are English you will know what I mean. Thaksin for some reason could establish a rapport with the poor, Abhisit patently cannot, yet neither in my opinion have the interests of the poor and the nation in their hearts.

Thailand is not an egalitarian society, the idea of a Prince being charged with speeding would be unthinkable here, yet has happened in England, Thai elite are untouchable, except by other elite and this is what Thai politics boils down to, one group of elite versus another, not for the benefit of the nation but for the benefit of the group members. But all the elite are united in one common objective, that is to keep the rest uninformed and unaware.

We see this in the use of the LM law, the pathetic education system, the impractical populist vote buying decrees, the highly doctored history of Thailand including the reintroduction of past or invented ceremonies, and above all the engender Xenophobia and superiority complex towards other races.

I may seem a Red supporter, but I am not, I do support the concept, but not their immediate targets and methods. I am not sure where the answer lies, many have said the truly able first class Thais either move abroad or do not get involved in politics, I am inclined to agree, Thailand is run by those with second class ability.

source:

Edited April 7, 2012 by EvilDrSomkid

[Insight]

"He clearly was trying to emphasise that the government's push for reconciliation was ultimately aimed at whitewashing Thaksin's wrongdoings".

And that is what this 2-for-1 thing is all about. Just another brick for the criminalization wall the Opposition has been trying to build around their political nemesis..............Winning elections is not an amnesty-able matter. But what happened at R'song is very much subject to amnesty discussions. ...Not sure how amenable those directly affected through the loss of loved ones, or those who have been struggling with the effects of injuries since, would feel about those responsible being given a free ride............... Also with respect to Jatuporn and Nathawut, since when is anti-coupism an amnesty-able matter. Mr. Abhisit and Suthep on the other hand, have both political and homicidal liabilities, the latter for which they have a culpability which they are now trying to 'defer and delay"...................... This kind of 2-for-1 gamesmanship is advancement of Opposition agenda's and a 'kick in the head' for those referenced above, who are most directly affected to this day.

Another busy day for you. Is there anything meaningful at all in the spam above?

This is very well played by Abhisit. It's just a massive shame the likes of him and Korn are in very short supply out here.

A visitor made a few jokes last night about the competence of our current lovely PM. Greed is well set to destroy Thailand.

[geriatrickid]

For me the bigger picture is this. If you let everybody off with an amnesty, the law no longer becomes a deterent, not only for politicians butr for everybody in Thailand. The law will be toothless. Without the fear of the law to govern appropriate behaviour you learn fairly swiftly that if you do wrong, but can garner enough support and kick up a big enough stink, you'll get your way.

Maybe it would just be easier to get rid of all laws instead

Agreed. Thaksin should be retried and in a court free of the taint of bias. The evidence appears to be compelling. If so, then the court will render an appropriate verdict. Abhisit and other need to be held accountable, although the case against Abhisit is tenuous at best and he knows it. Abhisit will most likely beat the rap, whereas Thaksin might not.

[geriatrickid]

"He clearly was trying to emphasise that the government's push for reconciliation was ultimately aimed at whitewashing Thaksin's wrongdoings".

And that is what this 2-for-1 thing is all about. Just another brick for the criminalization wall the Opposition has been trying to build around their political nemesis..............Winning elections is not an amnesty-able matter. But what happened at R'song is very much subject to amnesty discussions. ...Not sure how amenable those directly affected through the loss of loved ones, or those who have been struggling with the effects of injuries since, would feel about those responsible being given a free ride............... Also with respect to Jatuporn and Nathawut, since when is anti-coupism an amnesty-able matter. Mr. Abhisit and Suthep on the other hand, have both political and homicidal liabilities, the latter for which they have a culpability which they are now trying to 'defer and delay"...................... This kind of 2-for-1 gamesmanship is advancement of Opposition agenda's and a 'kick in the head' for those referenced above, who are most directly affected to this day.

Another busy day for you. Is there anything meaningful at all in the spam above?

This is very well played by Abhisit. It's just a massive shame the likes of him and Korn are in very short supply out here.

A visitor made a few jokes last night about the competence of our current lovely PM. Greed is well set to destroy Thailand.

Really? Abhisit's record on corruption is dismal. His administration was characterized by multiple corruption scandals, a caucus where an alleged murderer sits and a finance minister that authorized billions of baht worth of projects without the necessary oversight.

[h90]

For me the bigger picture is this. If you let everybody off with an amnesty, the law no longer becomes a deterent, not only for politicians butr for everybody in Thailand. The law will be toothless. Without the fear of the law to govern appropriate behaviour you learn fairly swiftly that if you do wrong, but can garner enough support and kick up a big enough stink, you'll get your way.

Maybe it would just be easier to get rid of all laws instead

No no no....The law will be what it is supposed to be.....Hard for normal citizen.

And of course not for the owners, the ruling elites, if that are the Shinawatras, Democrats or some of the super rich who can buy laws and courts.

Laws are for suppressing the masses, but not to be a hassle for the ruler.

[ScouseTommy]

There is one simple fact. Thaksin is a convicted criminal who has fled the country and paid lip service to the laws of this country. Thaksin has to be put in prison, and serve his sentence. There should be no amnesty. If there is then the laws of this country mean nothing! Basically anyone with cash and friends in high places are free to do anything they want to. If PTP want to garner any credibility nationally and Internationally they need to show no one is above the law. This starts with Thaksin. Further to this IF anyone is found guilty of a crime (from the red insurgency) Democrat or PTP they too should be jailed with no amnesty. This countries politicians need to start acting within the law and in the best interests of ALL its citizens, before they become a laughing stock on the world stage.

[h90]

"He clearly was trying to emphasise that the government's push for reconciliation was ultimately aimed at whitewashing Thaksin's wrongdoings".

And that is what this 2-for-1 thing is all about. Just another brick for the criminalization wall the Opposition has been trying to build around their political nemesis..............Winning elections is not an amnesty-able matter. But what happened at R'song is very much subject to amnesty discussions. ...Not sure how amenable those directly affected through the loss of loved ones, or those who have been struggling with the effects of injuries since, would feel about those responsible being given a free ride............... Also with respect to Jatuporn and Nathawut, since when is anti-coupism an amnesty-able matter. Mr. Abhisit and Suthep on the other hand, have both political and homicidal liabilities, the latter for which they have a culpability which they are now trying to 'defer and delay"...................... This kind of 2-for-1 gamesmanship is advancement of Opposition agenda's and a 'kick in the head' for those referenced above, who are most directly affected to this day.

Another busy day for you. Is there anything meaningful at all in the spam above?

This is very well played by Abhisit. It's just a massive shame the likes of him and Korn are in very short supply out here.

A visitor made a few jokes last night about the competence of our current lovely PM. Greed is well set to destroy Thailand.

Really? Abhisit's record on corruption is dismal. His administration was characterized by multiple corruption scandals, a caucus where an alleged murderer sits and a finance minister that authorized billions of baht worth of projects without the necessary oversight.

Well I was less than impressed with Abhisit, but I never heard that he was corrupt. Most of the corruption happened at the coalition partner which are now with PTP.

And while his administration wasn't 100 % clean, in compare with TRT, PPP, PTP governments the Democrats appear like holy persons. They are the only one who don't fill their pockets without any shame.

[h90]

There is one simple fact. Thaksin is a convicted criminal who has fled the country and paid lip service to the laws of this country. Thaksin has to be put in prison, and serve his sentence. There should be no amnesty. If there is then the laws of this country mean nothing! Basically anyone with cash and friends in high places are free to do anything they want to. If PTP want to garner any credibility nationally and Internationally they need to show no one is above the law. This starts with Thaksin. Further to this IF anyone is found guilty of a crime (from the red insurgency) Democrat or PTP they too should be jailed with no amnesty. This countries politicians need to start acting within the law and in the best interests of ALL its citizens, before they become a laughing stock on the world stage.

Thaksin is the PTP. He calls in at the meetings and orders the minister....And the red insurgency.....What is with the yellow demonstrations? seizure of the airport and the violence of the police on October 7th.

Or how can a convicted criminal on the run start hundreds of lawsuits against opponents in Thailand? Thailand is a laughing stock on the world stage. But if I look at the world stage: USA with Obama, Europe with their handling of the Euro crises, the situation in Russia and in the arab world (+Iran and Israel). There aren't many who can laugh.....

[phiphidon]

For me the bigger picture is this. If you let everybody off with an amnesty, the law no longer becomes a deterent, not only for politicians butr for everybody in Thailand. The law will be toothless. Without the fear of the law to govern appropriate behaviour you learn fairly swiftly that if you do wrong, but can garner enough support and kick up a big enough stink, you'll get your way.

Maybe it would just be easier to get rid of all laws instead

Agreed. Thaksin should be retried and in a court free of the taint of bias. The evidence appears to be compelling. If so, then the court will render an appropriate verdict. Abhisit and other need to be held accountable, although the case against Abhisit is tenuous at best and he knows it. Abhisit will most likely beat the rap, whereas Thaksin might not.

Seeing that there is evidence (a signed order) that Suthep as head of CRES authorised the use of live ammunition on the 10th April, the establishment of live fire zones (the first time that a country has used such a tactic against it's own citizens, the legality of which to date is unknown) the deployment of snipers for crowd control (obstensibly for the protection of troops and senior officers) I find it hard to believe that you think the link to Abhisit is tenuous.

He has overall responsibility for CRES having imposed an Emergency Decree under Section 5 of the constitution. Under Section 11 he can order the military in but they have to abide by the rules set by the PM.

The UN has very fixed ideas on Thailands Emergency Decrees

"The emergency decree makes it possible for soldiers and police officers get away with murder… Impunity for violence committed by the security forces has been an ongoing problem in Thailand, but the emergency decree has gone even further and makes impunity look like the official policy."

http://www.humanrigh...RC-STM-139-2010

The buck stops somewhere but it's not at the head of CRES.

[jayboy]

The offer is inherently unfair even at 2-for-1 because only the one needs a whitewash.

The offer is a political gimmick because Abhisit and Suthep have not been charged for their alleged crimes.Should there be a proper investigation - no sign of this yet - and they are found guilty, that would be a different matter.However since they know the army in Thailand is never held accountable it's an empty gesture.

[metisdead]

Post using derogatory nicknames or intentional misspelling of people’s names will be deleted. If you don’t want your post to be deleted, spell people’s names correctly. One post removed.

[ScouseTommy]

Ooops post removed! O.K. without intentionally mis-spelling his name I agree with what you said H90, however it would be a nice start, and a move away from corruption and general apathy if they enforced the laws of the land. This would make it harder for people who dont like PTP (myself included), to criticise them. This has to start with Thaksin.

[rixalex]

Agreed. Thaksin should be retried and in a court free of the taint of bias. The evidence appears to be compelling. If so, then the court will render an appropriate verdict. Abhisit and other need to be held accountable, although the case against Abhisit is tenuous at best and he knows it. Abhisit will most likely beat the rap, whereas Thaksin might not.

And you think were he to be retried right now, with him effectively running the country, that there is no possibility of any bias in court rulings?

Any retrial is going by some to be considered as tainted, just as you consider his existing one to be so. How many retries do you think we will have to go through before everyone is satisfied? We will be here forever. How about, seeing as the evidence was compelling, Thaksin just accepts it? (actually he should be thanking that "tainted" court that they didn't double his sentence for attempting to bribe it)

[FarangTalk]

Is Chuan having an incontinence moment?

Probably discomfort knowing his own brother was a wanted fugitive for embezzlement until the statute of limitations expired.