Buying Real Estate For Your Gay Thai Lover

[isanbirder]

Well, I bought all sorts of things for my ex-barboy partner... of whose development I am, by the way, extremely proud. 90+ rai of land, a house, and so on. I live with him in the house, in deepest Isan. We've sold much of the land at a handsome profit, and look to the rest to clear off our bank debts.

I am chary of discussing what kind of relationship we have. Many of the earlier posts in this thread seem to be prescribing what kind of relationship a couple should have; I think this is different for every couple... so much so that I won't attempt to describe mine.

[Ijustwannateach]

That's too bad, IB. I hope it isn't my posts to which you are referring... I *am* scornful when it comes to delusional people who allow themselves to be abused or taken advantage of- only later to scratch their heads and ask 'how'd that happen? Why was HE so bad?'- because I've seen it happen so many times here, with the same people doing the same things over and over, and never recognising their own responsibility. However, as you say, everyone has his own life and if those people cannot risk breaking out of those patterns, if those are enough for them- then it is *my* responsibility whether or not I should continue to choose to have such an ongoing train wreck in my acquaintance.

That's a far cry, however, from doing- whatever you are doing- with your eyes wide open and accepting responsibility for your own actions.

[endure]

My LTR of 19 years (this year) is someone who I met in Coffee Boy and I get rather tired of reading all the lectures on barboys from the sanctimonious. He was a whore when I met him. We've been together for 19 years. We've had lots of grief and lots of laughs together and I wouldn't swap him for 10 Thammasat PhDs and a million quid in used fivers.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Well, to be clear, barboys are not (AFAIK) the topic here. In fact, most of the cases with which I am personally familiar in what we are talking about on this thread (and the OP's case also AFAIK), are about foreigners who are not with people who have been sex workers.

[Ijustwannateach]

And there is a BIG difference between accepting money and other types of support, and treating someone abusively.

[LeCharivari]

To me it just emphasises how disingenuous this particular Thai person is and I simply question how many more out there think the same way he does?

Over the nineteen years that I’ve been living here, Asiantravel, quite a few. One friend of a friend (actually from Laos, not Thailand, but I think that’s coincidental) who has a good and healthy relationship with his farang boyfriend simply told him directly that he was in the way so at least they knew where they stood!

So your friend’s Thai boy-friend doesn’t want him hanging around all the time? Why should he? My partner doesn’t need to tell me that there are times when I’m more than welcome and times when I am in the way. If he goes to a local concert in Pattaya he goes with friends of his own age and he can enjoy himself without having to worry about me (and I am only too happy not to have to make a fool of myself dancing in front of the stage). On the other hand if there’s a “Toyota” concert on anywhere from Rayong to Chonburi and beyond, with a Thai big-name superstar, then we’ll always go together and he doesn’t mind at all that I’ll probably be the only farang there and Chom-poo (or whoever the star is) will usually notice us sitting together a few rows from the front, point us out, and ask us if we are a couple and how long we’ve been together.

It’s not a question of embarrassment (or pride) – it’s simply about common sense, on both sides. My partner is twenty years younger than me, but for many here that gap’s often nearer to forty years. Why would he want his considerably older friend (who happens to be a farang) getting in the way when he’s gone home for Songkran to see his family and to have fun with friends of his own age, not to spend his time making sure that his friend doesn’t get hurt or have an accident and is looked after? How many Thais of your friend’s age do you see chucking water and doing the ram-wong in the back of a pick-up truck?

My partner drove back from Loei after spending Songkran there, and on the 19^th went to dance in the foam with his friends in front of Central on Beach Road – both without me to worry about, as I stayed at home with the dogs and the only sign of life, as usual, was the buffalo next door. Our time together’s going to be all too short because we were born twenty years apart, but that doesn’t mean that we have to spend all of our time together.

Your friend’s Thai boy-friend didn’t want him going home with him for Songkran because he would have been in the way – had he been Thai I expect the same would have applied and nobody would have thought anything of it. Nothing to do with “farang vs Thai”.

What seems to be being overlooked here is that both those involved in the relationship are perfectly happy with it as it is. What’s the problem? What’s so wrong with that? Who’s to say that he’s being delusional, doesn’t know what’s going on, and doesn’t prefer it to the most likely alternative of drifting from one casual/commercial encounter to another (not that there’s anything wrong with that, and I was quite happy doing that myself for a while)? …and unless you are in a “better” relationship (maybe you are, I don’t know) who are you or anyone else here to take some sort of moral high ground?

Edited April 23, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

Well, I bought all sorts of things for my ex-barboy partner... of whose development I am, by the way, extremely proud. 90+ rai of land, a house, and so on. I live with him in the house, in deepest Isan. We've sold much of the land at a handsome profit, and look to the rest to clear off our bank debts.

I am chary of discussing what kind of relationship we have. Many of the earlier posts in this thread seem to be prescribing what kind of relationship a couple should have; I think this is different for every couple... so much so that I won't attempt to describe mine.

IB, despite what many in Thailand like to believe is widespread due either to their own experience or to their own resentment if they are not in a position to have such a relationship themselves, in my own experience here (more than some, less than others) your relationship is anything but unusual. Most of the relationships I know of similar to yours (and I am talking about relationships where the farang is living here full time, not just a visitor) are successful and stand the test of time (and criticism) considerably better than many others.

Where the ex-bar boy is/was “gay for pay” or has a wife and/or children the chances of such a relationship lasting are far, far less (although I do know of a couple that have succeeded), and if there is a long term Thai boyfriend then the chances are even slimmer, but as long as that vital element of trust is there, on both sides, the only obstacle is prejudice.

All such relationships are different, as you say, but the one common factor is that while neither partner may be Brad Pitt (or Angelina Jolie) they are all happy with what they’ve got and making the best of their lives. Whether it’s “real love” or a “marriage of convenience” is debatable, but only by those with nothing better to do and nobody better to do it with.

Edited April 23, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

[Thread edited to remove off-topic material; below addressed to IJWT]

.... just WHY do these supposedly "delusional" people need "a lot of counselling" ... "talking with" ... to be "warned" ... someone "to point out that there are problems"?

.... and WHAT makes you think they have "low self esteem" and need "to do the painful and difficult things necessary to learn to change himself emotionally and socially, to learn to love himself and relate to other people"?

You may not like what they are doing, you may see it as "foolish", but they're HAPPY with what they're doing - they may not be later, who knows, but many relationships fail and sometimes these relationships succeed. They are relating to other people, but they just aren't the people that you relate to. What's so wrong with that?

[isanbirder]

My LTR of 19 years (this year) is someone who I met in Coffee Boy and I get rather tired of reading all the lectures on barboys from the sanctimonious. He was a whore when I met him. We've been together for 19 years. We've had lots of grief and lots of laughs together and I wouldn't swap him for 10 Thammasat PhDs and a million quid in used fivers.

Interesting, Endure. I met my first Thai boyfriend at Coffee Boy 25 years ago, and we had lots of fun together (no, I'm not talking about sex). In those days, and some years afterwards, there were many boys in the Chiangmai bars who spoke good English, and with whom one could simply have a fun relationship, sex apart. I know several of them who formed long-tern relationships with ex-customers.

My gut feeling is that longterm gay relationships, which almost invariably involve buying a lot of things for the Thai partner, are as successful as, if not more so than, straight relationships which are otherwise similarly based. I think the reason may be that most Thai men expect to make a life for themselves, and are less inclined to expect their farang partner to pay for everything while the Thai drinks lao kao.

[Ijustwannateach]

LCV, proceed further in attempting to misrepresent me (or the OP) at peril of further warnings as discussed on previous threads. I am not interested in discussions with you.

IB, your mileage definitely may vary. People in my circle of acquaintance here in Bangkok- particularly young professional Thais, or foreigners who have Thai professional boyfriends- do not necessarily so invariably buy a lot of things in a one-sided way for their Thai gay partners; the relationships are more equitable (and not infrequently both partners of either nationality are earning fair amounts at their own jobs). I have the feeling this is partly a generational thing, and partly an urban-vs-rural-thing, and the times are a-changing, a bit, even here in Thailand. However, in the tourist circles and for those who are older, I think the situations ARE different and I do not deny that your experience is supported by what you see of the world. However, I wonder if you will grant me the same courtesy?

I'm afraid that people are getting so sensitive on this forum that they are beginning to interpret any comments of mine as being very personalised towards them, when it is not so. However, as I mentioned, there *is* a lot of projection going on. To be more direct, Endure and IB, from your past posts I give both of you full credit for a mature adult sense of responsibility for your own relationships and what you are doing with them, with eyes wide open. What we are talking about in this thread- AFAIK- is not that, unless there is some projection going on that is not transparent to me. What *I* thought we were talking about in this thread was a foreigner who was effectively being abused who is either oblivious and in denial, or simply avoiding dealing with what is a problem- thus the anger of his 'friend'. I have been in this position myself in relationship to unhappy, irresponsible foreigners who allowed themselves to fall into patterns where they were abused. Thus I comment. None of the posts I have made on this thread, once more, to be absolutely clear, had anything either directly or indirectly related either to prostitution or to your individual situations as far as I have ever heard of them, until you started dropping hints, as it seems to me, that you thought I was or would be doing that. Frankly, it sounds to me like the two of you have perfectly good, functional relationships and more power to you as far as I am concerned, because you seem- AFAIK- to be happy and also to be willing & able to be responsible for whatever you are doing. I wish more of my friends were as aware. And I doubt from what you have said that you are in the delusional, waiting-for-the-other-shoe-to-drop kind of mode that the OP paints his friend as being in.

So I hope once more that that takes care of the misunderstandings, deliberate and otherwise, which have crept into this thread. It would also be nice to hear more detail from the OP in order to know which of our various speculations could be confirmed. But sometimes silence also speaks louder than words.

[endure]

My LTR of 19 years (this year) is someone who I met in Coffee Boy and I get rather tired of reading all the lectures on barboys from the sanctimonious. He was a whore when I met him. We've been together for 19 years. We've had lots of grief and lots of laughs together and I wouldn't swap him for 10 Thammasat PhDs and a million quid in used fivers.

Interesting, Endure. I met my first Thai boyfriend at Coffee Boy 25 years ago, and we had lots of fun together (no, I'm not talking about sex). In those days, and some years afterwards, there were many boys in the Chiangmai bars who spoke good English, and with whom one could simply have a fun relationship, sex apart. I know several of them who formed long-tern relationships with ex-customers.

I used to enjoy going to Coffee Boy. As you say it was good fun.

Edited April 23, 2012 by endure

[isanbirder]

IJWT, I would not argue with you about the situation in Bangkok, where you will undoubtedly find a larger proportion of well-paid professional Thais than you would in the sticks. I did see this in Chiangmai, though not to the extent you seem to indicate.

There just are more educated Thais in good jobs than there were twenty years ago.

Barboys, among whom Endure and I were both fortunate enough to find someone special, tended to come from the unmoneyed classes, who may have been clever but couldn't afford an education. This is no different from the farang/bargirl syndrome which keeps TV running. Some months ago I put a spoof thread in the General section showing that the Bennett girls in Pride and Prejudice were behaving, mutatis mutandis, the same way as Thai bargirls do these days. It is natural for poor people to seek security, and making a good marriage is one way of doing so. Abusing the relationship afterwards is a separate question. I just wanted to make the point, being probably the nth person on this thread to do so, that receiving large and valuable gifts (land, a business etc) from one's life partner is a normal thing to happen in cases where there is a large discrepancy in wealth between the two.

[LeCharivari]

LCV, proceed further in attempting to misrepresent me (or the OP) at peril of further warnings as discussed on previous threads. I am not interested in discussions with you.

IJWT, my apologies to both you and the OP if I appeared to be misrepresenting either of you - that was not my intention, and I agree with you 100% that it would indeed "be nice to hear more detail from the OP in order to know which of our various speculations could be confirmed. But sometimes silence also speaks louder than words."

Back on topic (I hope) ....

My point in the above posts (which I hope Asiantravel will see fit to respond to, as well as this one) was that although Asiantravel and others as a result of his posts may think the subject "was effectively being abused who is either oblivious and in denial, or simply avoiding dealing with what is a problem", the only person who can say whether he is or not, or whether he has a "problem" or not is the subject and according to the OP (as I understood him) HE DOESN'T HAVE A PROBLEM: Suradit69:"It's sad that things didn't work out and, from the sound of it, have turned nasty, etc ..." Asiantravel (theOP):"no this is not the case at all. Both are still " together " although they don't seem to spend much time in each other's company. ..."

Prior to my present Partner (only 10 years so far, I am afraid, Endure) I was comparatively unattached in Thailand for a similar period and met a lot of Thais and farangs (from various backgrounds). I would have described quite a few of the farangs I met as "delusional" (as I would still describe some, but only in reference to their views of themselves), but all too many farangs saw fit to describe other farangs as "delusional" in their relationships - always behind their backs, directly or indirectly, and never to their face.

In every case where I knew those involved well (or at least knew the farang well), except two, there was nothing delusional in the relationship at all. The farangs knew exactly where they stood, as did the Thais, and they were perfectly HAPPY with things. Nobody was exploiting anyone, on either side, but because their relationships didn't fit neatly into whatever their critics saw as "approved" relationships they assumed that something had to be wrong and they leapt at any opportunity to say what a disaster someone else's relationship was (as distinct, of course, from their own).

One prime example was a gay farang friend of mine whom I have known well for nearly 20 years. He is highly intelligent and 20 years ago he was already sufficiently well-off to retire very comfortably (he hasn't yet). When he was in his 30's he went off to Issan to spend a few months living with a Thai male friend and no sooner had he left than the critics started: his boyfriend's not gay .... he's got a wife .... she's got a baby son ... how can he be so stupid ... a fool and his money, etc, etc ... and the comments continued, behind his back, long after. The reality was that he didn't care what others thought and so saw no reason to justify himself to them, then or now, but he knew exactly what he was doing. The two of them went their separate ways for various reasons and a while later, when we were talking about Issan, he simply said to me that "the time I spent in Issan with XX was the happiest time in my life - no worries, no pressure, in the fields in the day planting rice or with the buffalo, relaxing in the evenings, etc". It was as simple as that, but of course for some HAPPY wasn't good enough and there had to be something WRONG. Not too long after that he heard that his Thai friend had died of complications from AIDS and drugs and his late friend's wife had also been diagnosed as HIV Positive, with a young baby (fortunately HIV free). For no reason (except that he could) he took financial responsibility for her treatment and for her son's schooling, and he now spends over 500,000 baht a year just on his school fees. The boy has lived with him for several years, with his mother's approval, and his mother works for him as a live-in housekeeper. They're HAPPY (the young boy is the focus of his life) but of course that's still not good enough and for some there has to be something WRONG: she's blackmailing him ... he's sleeping with her ... he's sleeping with the baby ... he's sleeping with the boy ...

The two "delusional" relationships? One mutually farang/Thai, the other farang. One Thai who was well known to, let's say, "play the field", convinced his farang boyfriend that as a sign of his trust they should have matching American Express Gold Cards; the relationship ended when Interpol arrested the supposed wealthy Swiss brain surgeon (good enough to fool at least one International Hospital, but actually an accountant who had been a medic/nurse during his conscription) for fraud. The other farang used to promise his Thai holiday companion that he would buy them a motorbike before he left and arrange to meet them at a motorbike shop on the day after he had flown home; he, for reasons I won't go into, is an indefinite guest of Her Majesty.

I knew of one other "delusional" relationship, but in that case I only knew the Thai (a friend of a friend) and only met the farang once in passing. The Thai had apparently convinced the farang that he was at university in Chiang Mai, and had even made an album of "graduation" photos (taken at a friend's graduation, after borrowing his gown and mortarboard!). The farang was apparently taken in sufficiently to take the Thai to Europe for a holiday with him, twice, give him an allowance at uni, lots of "gifts", etc. Having met the farang briefly (Swiss, young, well educated, intelligent, wealthy, etc) I don't believe for a minute that he was taken in by the story, but he just enjoyed playing the game (while it lasted).

Just what's WRONG with a relationship that doesn't do anybody else any harm and where both partners are HAPPY, regardless of whether one is being exploited or not?

Edited April 24, 2012 by LeCharivari

[Ijustwannateach]

LCV: most of the people whom *I* am calling delusional are usually involved in serial, repeating disasters in which they act out the same delusional roles over and over, only later to be bitterly disappointed (and complain a lot). So you may not be talking about the same thing. I can't be sure that the OP's example is the same, actually, except that given several chances to deny my suggestions about what is going on, he has not, but that is not a strong assurance and I won't put words in his mouth.

[LeCharivari]

... So you may not be talking about the same thing....

We're not - I've been here a while, but I've never met people like that.

[Ijustwannateach]

Off-topic material has been removed from the thread.

[endure]

Off-topic material has been removed from the thread.

[Ijustwannateach]

I ain't arguing with that.

[LeCharivari]

... So you may not be talking about the same thing....

We're not - I've been here a while, but I've never met people like that.

It doesn't look as if we'll ever know, at least for sure, just what sort of relationship the OP's "friend" really had (which may be just as well) but what I find quite interesting is that despite around 10 years of living here spent regularly frequenting Pattaya's "tourist dives" (prior to my Partnership), as well as quite a few holidays over the years before that, I hadn't come across any of those you describe, IJWT - and considering some of the types Pattaya attracts I would have expected to if they were not unusual.

Is one of us delusional or in denial? It may be tempting to think so, but somehow I don't think that's the case. Pattaya may attract more than its fair share of the dregs who you would expect to make up both sides of any of the relationships (the delusional farangs and the mean, scheming Thais) but at the same time its a small place, which can be both a good and a bad thing, and most of the bars are small. Despite the type of "gossip" that inevitably generates (see above) it also means that for those who do frequent the "scene" they are always going to run into those they know. Whether the friendships formed are close or superficial doesn't really matter, but it means that in the event of the sort of "serial self-destruction" you're talking about there will always be someone who will tell them (hopefully with a laugh, sometimes with a gloat) "I can't believe it, XX, you're doing it again!" (or words to that effect).

This is very different from the type of gossip in the sort of relationship I referred to, where it's a one-off and where there's at least a reasonable chance that the relationship, one-sided though it may appear to some, could work (and a surprising number do) and where the small-town gossip is done behind people's backs. Maybe there's an unwritten rule that everyone's allowed to make a fool of themselves once.

From what I've seen of things in Chiang Mai I imagine that they are very much the same there, although on a smaller (and rather less pressured) scale.

In Bangkok, although my experiences there were only on holiday and two decades ago, things are the reverse and its a case of "big city syndrome" - more people, more and bigger bars, more passing acquaintances, less familiarity, etc, and from the little I've seen of Bangkok in the meantime any changes have been to make the gap between the "big city" and the rest of Thailand even wider. I don't want to say any more than I did in that thread about the proposed Bangkok Gay Farang Support Group, which is apparently getting a reasonable response, but anyone who had proposed a similar thing in Pattaya would have been laughed out of town - its not a question of "an urban-vs-rural-thing" but it's very much a Bangkok vs the rest of Thailand thing. In Bangkok the "support" from acquaintances, friends, peers, call them what you will, often isn't there, just as it often isn't there in many big cities - everyone is busy and has other things to do. In Pattaya on the other hand, and elsewhere, it would appear that the serial self-destructors are stopped early on.

We are talking about very different relationships, IJWT, and this time its not because of semantics. I think we are probably both correct for once (I suppose it has to be possible once) and from what I understand from IB and endure they are also both correct in their views of what are two more different types of relationships.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Well, THAT's a relief. I've been arguing on forum boards for years that multiple, parallel but different communities and ways of doing things exist here in Thailand, among straight, gay, and what-have-you, and that there's really no percentage in insisting that any one experience is representative in some kind of exclusionary way from anyone else's.

And the people I have been talking about are mainly dating working Thais- but that particular subgroup still wind up in patterns recounted by the OP (to the best of my ability to understand his story).

As far as I'm able to tell, a lot of couples wind up in what *I* call-though I'm sure someone will object- the 'old married couple' mode, whether they're straight or gay or whatever, because it seems to be a common human pattern. For some of them, it works well, for some not. It's a pretty classic pattern, too, from the straight world that frequently- yes, stereotypically- the 'wife' is a homebody who doesn't necessarily do EMPLOYED labour- not to say that's how things have to be- but that if a gay couple only has one earner, it has plenty of precedent from the conservative world.

[Boifromoz]

Appologies if offend anyone but from eperience, talking and negotiating with thais to get money back is totally a waste of time, my advice is to hire 5-6 Thai thugs to get ur money and property back or at least a negotiation ur happy with..

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't think that's what this discussion has been about, either, but projection seems to be the order of the day here.....