Norway Gunman Breivik Pleads 'Not Guilty' At Oslo Trial

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted. The topic is not about US politics.

[folium]

Folium, As the joke goes when a motorist who was lost asked an Irishman for directions, the reply he received was 'Well I wouldn't have started from here'.

There are various universal truisms worth considering however. Firstly, a society has only got a finite capacity to accept new immigration before non-assimilation becomes a problem. The first thing I would do is slow down the rate of immigration until this is achieved. Note that some groups are more easily assimilated than others, the Poles obviously being better candidates than say Somalis for a variety of reasons.

Then there is education. I don't agree with segregated education or opt outs due to cultural sensitivities. I was hardly traumatized by singing onward Christian soldiers in school assembly and if I found the pork served up in school dinners offensive I could have opted for a packed lunch, as some of my class mates did in junior school.

Then there's indoctrination in beliefs or values that run contrary to the law of the land. The law is the common law shaped over hundreds of years and should not be replaced by foreign law or you are inviting separation of (ahem) communities.

Then there's geographic considerations - If you spread incoming groups evenly throughout the County it encourages them to learn the language and mix with the (ahem) indigenous population, which should also fight xenophobia according to the link you posted.

Finally, call a spade a spade, doing so does not generally result in lynch mobs but causes the government to address problems. Not doing so leads to festering resentment sometimes tragically manifesting itself in violence as was the case with Breivik.

"Universal truisms" may be stretching things a little...

Like your driver asking for directions we have to make the best of where we find ourselves and not make the situation worse.

Most countries have long histories of migration as either providers or hosts and some as both. Acceptance is often a class-based exercise, the middle class couple like the cheap and hard working builder, nanny or gardener, the less qualified working class 22 year old resents the foreigners "stealing" his job.

Assimilation is based on economic status, geographic distribution, second language attainment and intermarriage. Historically each pulse of immigration has had to confront these hurdles on the path to assimilation. The concept of multiculturalism has in many ways impeded this process, and I am no fan of anything that throws up more obstacles to integration and assimilation. But I am not looking to throw out baby with the bathwater as some of the more extreme opponents of multiculturalism wish to do.

In terms of educational segregation, home schooling is as significant as faith schools. In the US approx. 1.1 million students (3% of total) are home-schooled, 80% from white homes, 3x more than black students as a proportion so segregation needs to be addressed at both ends of the spectrum.

The Sharia law spectre remains unconvincing. In the UK muslims are simply following the well-established and utterly legal steps taken by orthodox jews and their use of Beth Din courts in the UK. IMHO as long as English law remains preeminent (and that is hardly likely to change), sharia courts or Beth Din courts work fine at the civil level and if any party is unhappy with the ruling of any such court it is always subject to and inferior to, English law.

Not sure spreading immigrants around a country makes sense or is workable. Immigrants have always tended to cluster with friends/relations/contacts and close to sources of employment. What would you suggest, bussing them to rural areas where they are likely to encounter racism and lack of opportunities?

All a far cry from Eurabia, which remains a distant possibility in terms of demographics alone. Its political feasibility remains unconvincing and ironically the gates of Vienna 1683 will more than likely mark the high tide of attempted muslim takeovers of Europe. While a clash of civilizations is obviously an integral part of such bloggers agendas, hopefully common sense and practicalities will prevail over such a doomsday scenario.

Edited May 5, 2012 by folium

[bigbamboo]

Folium, As the joke goes when a motorist who was lost asked an Irishman for directions, the reply he received was 'Well I wouldn't have started from here'.

There are various universal truisms worth considering however. Firstly, a society has only got a finite capacity to accept new immigration before non-assimilation becomes a problem. The first thing I would do is slow down the rate of immigration until this is achieved. Note that some groups are more easily assimilated than others, the Poles obviously being better candidates than say Somalis for a variety of reasons.

Then there is education. I don't agree with segregated education or opt outs due to cultural sensitivities. I was hardly traumatized by singing onward Christian soldiers in school assembly and if I found the pork served up in school dinners offensive I could have opted for a packed lunch, as some of my class mates did in junior school.

Then there's indoctrination in beliefs or values that run contrary to the law of the land. The law is the common law shaped over hundreds of years and should not be replaced by foreign law or you are inviting separation of (ahem) communities.

Then there's geographic considerations - If you spread incoming groups evenly throughout the County it encourages them to learn the language and mix with the (ahem) indigenous population, which should also fight xenophobia according to the link you posted.

Finally, call a spade a spade, doing so does not generally result in lynch mobs but causes the government to address problems. Not doing so leads to festering resentment sometimes tragically manifesting itself in violence as was the case with Breivik.

Then there was the motorist who was lost and asked a local for directions to the nearest village. "Dunno" said the local. So then he asked where the nearest pub was. "Dunno" said the local. Finally, trying not to lose his rag he asked the local which way was north. ":Dunno" came the reply.

"You don't know much, do you?" said the motorist.

"Maybe." said the local. "But I ain't lost."

As for Breivik, I think the Nigerians showed the way how to sort out a mass murderer in their midst this week.

Edited May 5, 2012 by bigbamboo

[Steely Dan]

"Universal truisms" may be stretching things a little...

Like your driver asking for directions we have to make the best of where we find ourselves and not make the situation worse.

Most countries have long histories of migration as either providers or hosts and some as both. Acceptance is often a class-based exercise, the middle class couple like the cheap and hard working builder, nanny or gardener, the less qualified working class 22 year old resents the foreigners "stealing" his job.

Assimilation is based on economic status, geographic distribution, second language attainment and intermarriage. Historically each pulse of immigration has had to confront these hurdles on the path to assimilation. The concept of multiculturalism has in many ways impeded this process, and I am no fan of anything that throws up more obstacles to integration and assimilation. But I am not looking to throw out baby with the bathwater as some of the more extreme opponents of multiculturalism wish to do.

In terms of educational segregation, home schooling is as significant as faith schools. In the US approx. 1.1 million students (3% of total) are home-schooled, 80% from white homes, 3x more than black students as a proportion so segregation needs to be addressed at both ends of the spectrum.

The Sharia law spectre remains unconvincing. In the UK muslims are simply following the well-established and utterly legal steps taken by orthodox jews and their use of Beth Din courts in the UK. IMHO as long as English law remains preeminent (and that is hardly likely to change), sharia courts or Beth Din courts work fine at the civil level and if any party is unhappy with the ruling of any such court it is always subject to and inferior to, English law.

Not sure spreading immigrants around a country makes sense or is workable. Immigrants have always tended to cluster with friends/relations/contacts and close to sources of employment. What would you suggest, bussing them to rural areas where they are likely to encounter racism and lack of opportunities?

All a far cry from Eurabia, which remains a distant possibility in terms of demographics alone. Its political feasibility remains unconvincing and ironically the gates of Vienna 1683 will more than likely mark the high tide of attempted muslim takeovers of Europe. While a clash of civilizations is obviously an integral part of such bloggers agendas, hopefully common sense and practicalities will prevail over such a doomsday scenario.

Let's cut to the chase. Aside from the BNP and other fascist organizations who are concerned about racial purity the rest who condemn multiculturalism are looking in one direction, namely one which brings with it a totalitarian ideology, which would if allowed usurp the identity of whatever culture it comes into contact with.

You might use 'Gates of Vienna' as a device to ridicule or dismiss those warning of this ideological threat, however when it comes from within that culture it is less easily dismissed. For example Dr Zudhi Jasser directed a film called the third Jihad, which details this coordinated ideological assault on the west; Dr Jasser is a practicing Muslim.

As for your comparison of Sharia with Jewish law I would observe that parties may not be able to appeal to the law of the land if they are threatened or intimidated into not doing so - especially if this 'dishonours' the community.

By way of a reminder Sharia is considered 'God's law' and never subordinate to laws of man, same goes for democracy. You can't have a Gods law lite, only God's law by installments. Anyway here is a link where Dr Jasser completely debunks the appeasement argument surrounding Sharia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/m-zuhdi-jasser/getting-real-on-ishariahi_b_200171.html

Anyway, I wasn't intending to get sidetracked back onto religion per se when we were discussing assimilation. With respect to this I think it has to be recognized when some elements actively discourage assimilation by putting deliberate barriers in the way of this. Demands for special treatment in the workplace, or in civic situations have to be balanced with common sense and realism.

Finally, I admit it's difficult to know to what extent real ideological differences cause problems as oppose to the equivalent of fans of rival football teams provoking each other. I think we agree that things need handling very carefully but no doubt take diametrically opposite views as to what this should entail.

[folium]

"Universal truisms" may be stretching things a little...

Like your driver asking for directions we have to make the best of where we find ourselves and not make the situation worse.

Most countries have long histories of migration as either providers or hosts and some as both. Acceptance is often a class-based exercise, the middle class couple like the cheap and hard working builder, nanny or gardener, the less qualified working class 22 year old resents the foreigners "stealing" his job.

Assimilation is based on economic status, geographic distribution, second language attainment and intermarriage. Historically each pulse of immigration has had to confront these hurdles on the path to assimilation. The concept of multiculturalism has in many ways impeded this process, and I am no fan of anything that throws up more obstacles to integration and assimilation. But I am not looking to throw out baby with the bathwater as some of the more extreme opponents of multiculturalism wish to do.

In terms of educational segregation, home schooling is as significant as faith schools. In the US approx. 1.1 million students (3% of total) are home-schooled, 80% from white homes, 3x more than black students as a proportion so segregation needs to be addressed at both ends of the spectrum.

The Sharia law spectre remains unconvincing. In the UK muslims are simply following the well-established and utterly legal steps taken by orthodox jews and their use of Beth Din courts in the UK. IMHO as long as English law remains preeminent (and that is hardly likely to change), sharia courts or Beth Din courts work fine at the civil level and if any party is unhappy with the ruling of any such court it is always subject to and inferior to, English law.

Not sure spreading immigrants around a country makes sense or is workable. Immigrants have always tended to cluster with friends/relations/contacts and close to sources of employment. What would you suggest, bussing them to rural areas where they are likely to encounter racism and lack of opportunities?

All a far cry from Eurabia, which remains a distant possibility in terms of demographics alone. Its political feasibility remains unconvincing and ironically the gates of Vienna 1683 will more than likely mark the high tide of attempted muslim takeovers of Europe. While a clash of civilizations is obviously an integral part of such bloggers agendas, hopefully common sense and practicalities will prevail over such a doomsday scenario.

Let's cut to the chase. Aside from the BNP and other fascist organizations who are concerned about racial purity the rest who condemn multiculturalism are looking in one direction, namely one which brings with it a totalitarian ideology, which would if allowed usurp the identity of whatever culture it comes into contact with.

You might use 'Gates of Vienna' as a device to ridicule or dismiss those warning of this ideological threat, however when it comes from within that culture it is less easily dismissed. For example Dr Zudhi Jasser directed a film called the third Jihad, which details this coordinated ideological assault on the west; Dr Jasser is a practicing Muslim.

As for your comparison of Sharia with Jewish law I would observe that parties may not be able to appeal to the law of the land if they are threatened or intimidated into not doing so - especially if this 'dishonours' the community.

By way of a reminder Sharia is considered 'God's law' and never subordinate to laws of man, same goes for democracy. You can't have a Gods law lite, only God's law by installments. Anyway here is a link where Dr Jasser completely debunks the appeasement argument surrounding Sharia.

http://www.huffingto...i_b_200171.html

Anyway, I wasn't intending to get sidetracked back onto religion per se when we were discussing assimilation. With respect to this I think it has to be recognized when some elements actively discourage assimilation by putting deliberate barriers in the way of this. Demands for special treatment in the workplace, or in civic situations have to be balanced with common sense and realism.

Finally, I admit it's difficult to know to what extent real ideological differences cause problems as oppose to the equivalent of fans of rival football teams provoking each other. I think we agree that things need handling very carefully but no doubt take diametrically opposite views as to what this should entail.

Immigration will continue to be an ever-present feature of this world as. Careful management and progressive forms of assimilation/integration will be vital.

Similarly religious, ethnic, tribal, national and racial tensions will be exploited by those with an agenda as they always have been.

Apocalyptic and overly sensational websites/blogs can feed characters like Brievik and provide a "justification" and a "logic" for their actions. As ever it's a classic case of "be careful what you wish for"....

[Steely Dan]

Immigration will continue to be an ever-present feature of this world as. Careful management and progressive forms of assimilation/integration will be vital.

Similarly religious, ethnic, tribal, national and racial tensions will be exploited by those with an agenda as they always have been.

Apocalyptic and overly sensational websites/blogs can feed characters like Brievik and provide a "justification" and a "logic" for their actions. As ever it's a classic case of "be careful what you wish for"....

You may find this of interest from the left wing Huffington post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/james-howell/the-standoff-at-aldgate-w_b_950328.html

For one thing it describes the UAF attempt to smear the EDL as an inspiration to Breivik as 'ludicrous'. It also hauls UAF over the coals for it's illiberal tactics trying to shut down any debate that it does not like. Of course when the EDL demonstrate, as they did the other day in Luton there were but two arrests. UAF usually manage dozens and in Bonn on the same day the Salafists clocked up 100 arrests with running battles with the Police leaving 29 officers injured, two seriously.

The fact is that time and time again the left wing demonstrations are far more violent than the right wing ones, yet the press never seems to pick up on this. Coming to think of it the tea party 'terrorists' have seldom any arrests yet the OWS demos leave a trail of arrests, criminal damage and garbage wherever they go.

Same old same old.

[Scott]

Stick to the topic please. Hint: Norway, Brevik.

[ayayay]

_{I don't blame him for pleading not guilty - I'd do the same if locked up in Norway - have you seen his prison conditions? The Norwegian authorities have 'incarcerated' him in not one, but three adjoining 86 sq ft cells; a bedroom, a gym, and a study with a computer, games console and a family package of 15 TV channels. He has fresh food for meals and outside exercise after lunch, plus he can write letters and request items like cigarettes be brought to his cell! I can't imagine how the families of his victims feel about this - they are living in a country which in 2009 granted prisoners access to legal pornography in their cells. It's really strange to me that a free, democratic society would treat someone like Breivik so compassionately after committing such a heinous crime.}

Norway is a clon country, dont forget NIN, Norway is Norway

[Exsexyman]

_{I don't blame him for pleading not guilty - I'd do the same if locked up in Norway - have you seen his prison conditions? The Norwegian authorities have 'incarcerated' him in not one, but three adjoining 86 sq ft cells; a bedroom, a gym, and a study with a computer, games console and a family package of 15 TV channels. He has fresh food for meals and outside exercise after lunch, plus he can write letters and request items like cigarettes be brought to his cell! I can't imagine how the families of his victims feel about this - they are living in a country which in 2009 granted prisoners access to legal pornography in their cells. It's really strange to me that a free, democratic society would treat someone like Breivik so compassionately after committing such a heinous crime.}

Norway is a clon country, dont forget NIN, Norway is Norway

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a "Clon" country?

[Travel2003]

What is NIN (Norway is Norway)?

Not sure about that point.