Fat %

[robblok]

More then a few times have i seen the mention of fat percentage and measuring it.

Tropo did it the best (being dunked in water) hydrostatic measurement.

Other ways are a skin caliper (can be real accurate if done by a professional) I even got a caliper here but dont use it.

By one of those electical devices (scales ect) Mostly they are crap i got one here too and i really don't know what to make of it.

For what its worth, i don't use them anymore because i cant find a way that is easy to do and accurate. If they had hydrostatic measurements in BKK im sure i would go there once a month or so (depending on price).

Now i just look at my weight going down and the belt getting looser or using a tape measure. I am not focussed on the % of body fat but on how i look because i haven't found a good way to measure.

For me its just a way to keep track of progress not a goal on itself.

Wonder what you guys are thinking, im just trying to keep the discussion going here because there are knowledgeable people here on the board.

I do know that fat percentage is a lot more important then weight, as a low weight without muscles means your still fat while a high weight (mine) with muscles can mean your lean.

BMI is worthless for people who seriously do weight training.

[Neha]

I'm totally with you on this. I don't even like the hydrostatic options for weighing. A lot of people say calipers are only good to measure progress ie if you go to a professional who will measure you in the same areas every week or month or whatever, but the number won't be accurate. Scales can totally change the BF% number depending on a lot of things like how much water you've had and whether or not you've taken a tinkle! hah

BMI is worthless if you do exercise. If one is sedentary it can provide some guidelines.

I have stopped using the weight scale too.

Like you, I use the tape measure, clothes and mirror. Also, you can always poke yourself on the tummy/back/arm/sides/thighs and see how deep the finger goes!

Edited April 17, 2012 by Neha

[tropo]

There are accurate ways to determine bodyfat percentages, but where are they available in Thailand?

Here's exactly how I went on 4 different methods. Apart from the pinch calliper test, they were done within a 2 hour period 2 years ago in NZ. The hydrostatic weighing and the "InBody" composition analyser were done at the Otago University and the DEXA scan was done at the Dunedin Hospital. The pinch calliper test was done a week earlier by a friend who has a lot of experience using the device and it is an average of 9 positions. At the time my bodyweight was 115kg.

Hydrostatic weighing: 17.9%

InBody 230 Body Composition Analyser: 15.8%

DEXA Scan: 16.9%

Callipers: 10.7%

I would consider the DEXA Scan to be the gold standard method. You may notice that I was a percent higher in the hydrostatic weighing test. This is probably because an accurate hydrostatic result relies on exhaling all of the air from your lungs, which is not easy to do. More air in lungs when you go under water - more fat in the result.

I made a huge effort and spent a lot of money to find out what was really going on with me because although I was showing a reasonable level of abdominal definition, my waist was still over 40 inches (age 50) whereas it used to be around 32 inches in my 20's. The difference had to be visceral fat and I proved it.

The difference between my calliper result (10.7%) and the DEXA result (16.9%) is about 6%. People don't seem to grasp the significance of this as I'm still hearing that the calliper test is accurate if done by a professional.

This simply is not true. Visceral fat accumulates on average at the rate of about 1% per decade from age 20 on. A pinch calliper test only determines, with a moderate level of accuracy, subcutaneous fat levels in young people, but this will also vary widely as even young people can carry a significant amount of visceral fat. Obviously heavy drinkers in their 30's and 40's will be way above the average. Anyone with a beer gut can forget about using pinch callipers no what what their age.

The DEXA Scan broke down the fat composition of different body sections:

Arms: 9.2% fat

Legs: 12.6%

Trunk: 23.6%

Android: 24.0%

Gynoid: 20.0%

It also gave me other useful information such as bone density and bone calcium.

Pinch callipers are still very useful as a measure of progress, but as a absolute measurement they are useless.

Edited April 17, 2012 by tropo

[Tolley]

I got measured in the gym last week because i have lost weight and am now down to 83kg and on the scales I came back at 31 percent which is rubbish and then i went two days later to another gym and it came in at 23percent.

So forget the scales they are useless.

I have had the Bio Impedence where they put clips all over your body and that came back at around 21percent i think.

[tropo]

I got measured in the gym last week because i have lost weight and am now down to 83kg and on the scales I came back at 31 percent which is rubbish and then i went two days later to another gym and it came in at 23percent.

So forget the scales they are useless.

I have had the Bio Impedence where they put clips all over your body and that came back at around 21percent i think.

There's good ones and bad ones. I believe they need to have hand grips as well as foot pads to have any possibility of value. As I mentioned in the thread above, the InBody 230 device I used at the University gave me close to the DEXA result - it had hand grips.

The Tanita scales down at my gym are also rubbish. I don't stand on it any more as the results can be depressing. Any scale which needs you to input your body type is rubbish. You need to choose "normal" or "athletic". It's ridiculous.

[robblok]

I thought it was because else they cant interpret the values. I got a small hand held device and finally today it said i was muscular instead of obese (no way to input my body type)

I would pay for a good fat measurement because it would help keeping track of progress. I am a nut when it is about numbers (im an accountant) But i gave up on this because i realized there is no use in rubbish nr's. The caliper could help because you could see the skin folds decrease in size. Then you dont know the percentage but you do know if you are making progress.

[tropo]

I have an Omron hand held device too. It works for less muscular people - seems to give an accurate result for my wife - but I'm always around 6% on that.

There is a way. Find a DEXA scanner in Bangkok somewhere. These machines are commonly used for bone density scanning but less commonly for bodyfat. Surely all big hospitals wouldn't have one as bone density scanning is so important for the elderly.

Once you know your true bodyfat number, you can do a pinch test and make the necessary adjustment. Didn't I send you a chart for iliac crest pinch testing - it gives the necessary adjustments for age. It's an easy spot to self test. The problem I have with this particular test is that my left and right side pinch thickness varies by about 3 mm.

[robblok]

Im not sure if you send it. So far im seeing progress and i see my weight slowly drop. The actual numbers don't intrest me as much as tracking progress. I think its the same for everyone.

Reminds me to buy a ledger to write down what i did for training.

[glbv]

I answered this just now in another thread but ill just copy and paste it

I use calipers, if used properly these are very accurate. The electronic measuring methods are crap and will shoot off extremely inaccurate readings, even more so the more fat you have.

http://www.leighpeele.com/body-fat-pictures-and-percentages This is a decent example of how to visually estimate BF and this lines up with the fact that atm im measuring 12% and see top 2 abs fairly defined.

Rule of thumb, anyone that says they are single digit bf and they dont count calories is wrong 99% of the time or A) Anorexic Gifted with godly genetics. Anyone not in contest prep will never be 6% or any of the other insane numbers such as 4% you hear people spout off. 5-7% takes an incredible amount of work to acheive and anything much lower is extremely unhealthy to sustain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_M%C3%BCnzer#Death Andreas Münzer is a bodybuilder who basicly died due to sustaining a low body fat and as a result is internal organs dissolved.

[tropo]

I answered this just now in another thread but ill just copy and paste it

I use calipers, if used properly these are very accurate. The electronic measuring methods are crap and will shoot off extremely inaccurate readings, even more so the more fat you have.

It seems like you didn't read my post above because claiming callipers as "very accurate" is just plain wrong. I've proven that quite conclusively with my own testing. Even the doctor at the hospital mentioned that callipers are often 6% lower than true readings - so I'm not the only one who discovered this fact.

You may get a surprise if you learn your true bodyfat. How old are you? It makes a big difference.

[tropo]

http://en.wikipedia....s_Münzer#Death Andreas Münzer is a bodybuilder who basicly died due to sustaining a low body fat and as a result is internal organs dissolved.

How did you come up with this funky conclusion?

Going by your linked Wiki site we get these "facts":

"Cardiac hypertrophy (Münzer's heart weighed 636g; a normal man's heart usually weighs 300–350g)

Münzer's electrolytes were also completely out of balance, and his potassium levels were extremely high. Traces of about twenty different drugs were found, along with acute toxicity (perhaps caused by a stimulant)."

I very much doubt he died from low bodyfat. I would say he messed up his liver and kidneys with a basket of different drugs. He was really messed up inside but to say his organs dissolved from low bodyfat is imaginative to say the least.

Edited April 17, 2012 by tropo

[Tolley]

I got measured in the gym last week because i have lost weight and am now down to 83kg and on the scales I came back at 31 percent which is rubbish and then i went two days later to another gym and it came in at 23percent.

So forget the scales they are useless.

I have had the Bio Impedence where they put clips all over your body and that came back at around 21percent i think.

There's good ones and bad ones. I believe they need to have hand grips as well as foot pads to have any possibility of value. As I mentioned in the thread above, the InBody 230 device I used at the University gave me close to the DEXA result - it had hand grips.

The Tanita scales down at my gym are also rubbish. I don't stand on it any more as the results can be depressing. Any scale which needs you to input your body type is rubbish. You need to choose "normal" or "athletic". It's ridiculous.

Yeah that is the one that i used no handles and you input age, height and body type.

I reckon i should be below 20 percent body fat now but those scales say different and ridiculous at 31 percent.

[culicine]

I use the tanita scales (well I used to), and tracked my measurements for several months. I'm not so interested in accuracy (the measurement gives a true reading of body fat), but precision is more important so I could use it to track changes.. Of course I found that time of day had a significant effect on readings (but only up to 2%). Morning readings showed low water levels due to dehydration and thus increased body fat readings. So I could at least standardise this by measuring at 5-6pm each time which helped. I plotted graphs each day for these readings, and decreases in both body fat and overall weight were evident - plotting running means also helped smooth out some bumps in the graphs. I found the graphs useful be as they showed the point where my rate of change in body fat / weight slowed down, indicating I needed to change food intake or increase workout time / regime. But as an absolute measure of body fat, no i wouldn't use the scales.

[robblok]

I use the tanita scales (well I used to), and tracked my measurements for several months. I'm not so interested in accuracy (the measurement gives a true reading of body fat), but precision is more important so I could use it to track changes.. Of course I found that time of day had a significant effect on readings (but only up to 2%). Morning readings showed low water levels due to dehydration and thus increased body fat readings. So I could at least standardise this by measuring at 5-6pm each time which helped. I plotted graphs each day for these readings, and decreases in both body fat and overall weight were evident - plotting running means also helped smooth out some bumps in the graphs. I found the graphs useful be as they showed the point where my rate of change in body fat / weight slowed down, indicating I needed to change food intake or increase workout time / regime. But as an absolute measure of body fat, no i wouldn't use the scales.

For those of us who actually have more muscles as average the machine is only "guessing" so you cant even use it to track progress as the numbers are just a guess. I would be ok with a 5% fault margin if it made the same 5% mistake all the time. But because its just guessing readings have absolutely no use. One time it could be off 5% the next time 7% ect.

What it just does is checking your height and weight and that current against a table and guessing.

[glbv]

<p>Trop im 23, and if calipers are used properly they will be fairly accurate 10x more so than anything electronic. I have also seems extremely far off bodypod tests (ones done in hospitals).<br />

<br />

I stand by what I said about calipers as their proper use. A doctors is the last person I would ever go to to ask anything related to body buildings as far as how to determine body fat, gain muscle, an proper nutrition. They are not trained in it and they are not required to study it. Ive walked out of doctors offices because of a new Dr trying to say creatine is a steroid and is toxic to the body.<br />

<br />

Again I go heavily by what I look like, anyone claiming they have anything below 10% show me your 6 pack or show me your rib cage, cause that's the 2 forms 10% will be the 2 forms (the first link i gave gives an example further down of 10%lean vs 10% emaciated.<br />

<br />

Also so everyone knows all this info is for males only, girls body fat are much higher 16% and your looking dam_n good, around 10-12% is competition levels. <br />

<br />

</p>

Edited April 18, 2012 by glbv

[tropo]

<p>Trop im 23, and if calipers are used properly they will be fairly accurate 10x more so than anything electronic. I have also seems extremely far off bodypod tests (ones done in hospitals).<br />

<br />

I stand by what I said about calipers as their proper use. A doctors is the last person I would ever go to to ask anything related to body buildings as far as how to determine body fat, gain muscle, an proper nutrition. They are not trained in it and they are not required to study it. Ive walked out of doctors offices because of a new Dr trying to say creatine is a steroid and is toxic to the body.<br />

<br />

Again I go heavily by what I look like, anyone claiming they have anything below 10% show me your 6 pack or show me your rib cage, cause that's the 2 forms 10% will be the 2 forms (the first link i gave gives an example further down of 10%lean vs 10% emaciated.<br />

<br />

Also so everyone knows all this info is for males only, girls body fat are much higher 16% and your looking dam_n good, around 10-12% is competition levels. <br />

<br />

</p>

The way you're replying it's as if you want to ignore all the facts which I have presented.

For starters, why did you mention the doctor? The doctor (and nurse) at the hospital told me that pinch callipers read about 6% low for most people. This was an observed fact by a doctor who operates a DEXA scanning machine at a hospital. This has absolutely nothing to do with a doctor's opinion.

I already stated that calliper results are less inaccurate for younger people and explained why. I didn't know you were 23 (the thread where you were looking for a 1/2 baht per month house in Pattaya threw me off - highly unusual for a 23 year old) but if you'd actually read my post you would have understood something about visceral fat accumulation with age - meaning the result becomes more inaccurate (they are always inaccurate) as you age.

I already gave you one machine, the "InBody 230 Body Composition Analyser" that came within 1% of my true bodyfat percentage as measured by the DEXA Scan... and you're still telling me that callipers are 10x more accurate than electronic devices. Sure, more accurate than many devices, but there's a difference between an expensive electronic device used at universities compared to a cheap one at a local gym.

I've already stated that I could show ab definition at a true bodyfat percentage of 16.9%. Why?... because my bodyfat composition has 2 elements - subcutaneous and visceral. Calliper results do not usually factor in visceral fat. I have a table which does though - and they've estimated 1% extra fat per decade at the same pinch thickness. For example, a 20 year old with 10mm thickness would be 5% leaner than a 50 year old with the same 10mm measurement. Why?... because the 50 year old has accumulated 5% extra visceral fat inside his trunk over the 30 year period - of course this is an average. Many will have more visceral fat and some less depending on lifestyle and health. Heavy drinkers will have far more visceral fat. What do you think the beer belly is made from?

Everyone has different subcutaneous fat distribution patterns. I could have 10mm fat thickness on the abs while my upper back is 20mm thickness. Yes, I carry more fat on the upper back than on my abs and next to nothing on my legs or arms. I've seen plenty of people with decent upper back definition while still too fat around the abdomen to show any abs at all. The percentages mean nothing. It's the thickness of the subcutaneous fat that determines what muscles you can see.

Unless you jump into a tank, or get a DEXA scan, or get on a good electronic "gadget", I'm really not interested in your numbers - even at age 23. You're misleading everyone. Professionals do not consider calliper results to be an absolute measure of bodyfat. It's a good guide to progress - end of story.

I could be running around feeling pleased with my 10% calliper result - but I'm not going to play your game and fool myself into thinking I'm leaner than I really am.

Edited April 18, 2012 by tropo

[glbv]

Everyone has subcutaneous fat but its to a level. As i said I go off of what i look like, if your sitting there with no visual abs i dont care what any test says your over 12%, if your seeing hints ya might be 10% depends on the person. Im saying the last bod pod test i had came out at 4%, i would be as lean as a IFBB competition bodybuilder and ive heard people even quote 1%. 5% is what is agreed upon by almost all scientists and health proffesionals that is needed to live for a male, so if your 1% its nice know you but you will be dead within the day.

Im not to worried about % I just use it as a rule of thumb for basic things.

[tropo]

Everyone has subcutaneous fat but its to a level. As i said I go off of what i look like, if your sitting there with no visual abs i dont care what any test says your over 12%, if your seeing hints ya might be 10% depends on the person. Im saying the last bod pod test i had came out at 4%, i would be as lean as a IFBB competition bodybuilder and ive heard people even quote 1%. 5% is what is agreed upon by almost all scientists and health proffesionals that is needed to live for a male, so if your 1% its nice know you but you will be dead within the day.

Im not to worried about % I just use it as a rule of thumb for basic things.

Once again you're totally ignoring the age factor. You have to understand that this is an expat's forum, so the majority of readers here are probably 30 years older than you are.

You seem a little obsessed with low bodyfat for a 23 year old. Perhaps at your age you should concentrate on gaining some good solid mass. Most young bodybuilders want to get big and strong..

[glbv]

Ive said it a few times in other post but the reason im cutting so much/so long is my original weight was 325(when i stopped weighing myself) so at this point ive lost about 135ish lbs with some gained back then last again over the last 2-3 years.

I just read more about the dexa scan and yes I can see how that test would be very accurate, when I was referring to the standard at home scale, the handhelds available at the gym, the platform tanita scales, anything to do with shooting electric through your body and essentially counting the time it takes.

DEXA is based on Xrays and looks to be great, id actually love to get a test done never heard about it until this post. If you know where to get one done in Bangkok id love to run on down and do a scan, would be neat.

[tropo]

Ive said it a few times in other post but the reason im cutting so much/so long is my original weight was 325(when i stopped weighing myself) so at this point ive lost about 135ish lbs with some gained back then last again over the last 2-3 years.

I just read more about the dexa scan and yes I can see how that test would be very accurate, when I was referring to the standard at home scale, the handhelds available at the gym, the platform tanita scales, anything to do with shooting electric through your body and essentially counting the time it takes.

DEXA is based on Xrays and looks to be great, id actually love to get a test done never heard about it until this post. If you know where to get one done in Bangkok id love to run on down and do a scan, would be neat.

Sorry, I don't recall you mentioning that you were 325 lbs before - excuse me for that. It makes perfect sense that you are obsessed with low bodyfat and I take my hat off to you for losing 135 lbs. That's more than some people weight. I can't imagine being that heavy - my maximum ever was around 120kg (264 lbs) but that was a muscular weight - and it was getting difficult to move around and do basic tasks that were previously a breeze.

I was hoping that someone up in Bangkok may be about to track down a DEXA Scanner at one of the hospitals. They are commonly used to scan bone density, so surely they should be available. There may be one in Pattaya - I'll have to check around.

[glbv]

Ya if you find one in Pattaya its not to far from bangkok, good weekend trip.

[mikecwm]

"BMI is worthless if you do exercise. If one is sedentary it can provide some guidelines"

Totally agree with you here. I'm 5 ft 7, weight - 200lbs.

So technically I'm obese with a lousy BMI.

But, i'm 65, teaching my 17 year old son rock climbing and mountaineering. Love hiking the hills around Vancouver with him and my much younger wife.

Sometimes looking sideways in the mirror I wonder who that guy is, remembering the svelte mountaineer from long ago.

Forget the BMI - get out and get some good heart pumping exercise - you'll live forever.

[glbv]

Agreed, BMI is a very dated system of measurement. It doesnt take into account whats muscle and whats not among other things. Most muscular males would be considered obese if not overweight on the BMI scale.

[tropo]

Agreed, BMI is a very dated system of measurement. It doesnt take into account whats muscle and whats not among other things. Most muscular males would be considered obese if not overweight on the BMI scale.

Unless they had a lean, wiry type of physique such as what you see on the lighter division professional boxers.

[iamsano]

Hi i lost 28 kgs in 3 months. Workout and diet

[robblok]

Hi i lost 28 kgs in 3 months. Workout and diet

That is a lot of weight.. just out of curiosity how heavy where you when you started and how heavy now.

[robblok]

aargh a new thing in the past week my weight dropped 2 kg. Ok actually 1 kg and then today an other kg. But on my defense i did have a cafein tablet yesterday and woke up with a dry mouth when i weigh myself. I am a bit worried because i prefer my weight loss to be slow. Especially if i am not sure if it is muscle or not. I am now hoping it was just water weight, or a reset of my body.

Crazy isn't it wanting weight off but worrying when it goes too fast.

[glbv]

if its up and down very fast thats just water. I can go from nearly 92kg at night to 89 in the morning, add in if i had a some extra carbs or some extra sodium boom tons of water weight. I can see it in my "love handles" its not much but ive even had morning where ill wear 32in pants instead of 30s. so it can make a difference.

[tropo]

if its up and down very fast thats just water. I can go from nearly 92kg at night to 89 in the morning, add in if i had a some extra carbs or some extra sodium boom tons of water weight. I can see it in my "love handles" its not much but ive even had morning where ill wear 32in pants instead of 30s. so it can make a difference.

That's a big night to morning variation. I usually weigh myself at night and first thing in the morning. The variation is usually around 1 kg and that's after taking a shit. You must be getting up to piss very frequently to lose 3 kgs overnight - either that or you have a huge bladder. That's the equivalent of 3 litres of water.

[robblok]

It stayed down and now its going down slowly, must have been holding water for some reason. I was worried a bit but came to the conclusion if it goes down that fast its water just like you said. I never differ more then 1,5 kg on a day morning and night.

I do think that i might have to go lower then 90 kg now to get a 6 pack might be 88 not sure. Will see. Might be that things start to change at some point. But still 5 kg is a big difference if i ad 2 more its 7 kg from now.

Anyway time will tell.