Fat %

[tropo]

I do think that i might have to go lower then 90 kg now to get a 6 pack might be 88 not sure. Will see. Might be that things start to change at some point. But still 5 kg is a big difference if i ad 2 more its 7 kg from now.

Anyway time will tell.

I'll bet after this herculean effort you'll be thinking twice before you let things slip again.

I'm curious, are you aiming for new territory, or are you trying to get back to previous form?

[glbv]

i drink 9 liters a day minimum and yeah normally 2-3 times a night to get up and pee. As far as the weight robo i think most people are surprised how low they really need to go to see abs. Im sitting at 88kg at m and ill probably need to go to 83ish to see super definition.

[tropo]

i drink 9 liters a day minimum and yeah normally 2-3 times a night to get up and pee. As far as the weight robo i think most people are surprised how low they really need to go to see abs. Im sitting at 88kg at m and ill probably need to go to 83ish to see super definition.

People wouldn't have a clue how much visceral fat is hidden inside the torso and a lot of that will have to disappear first. The older the punter the more true your statement but it will vary a lot depending on the fat deposition patterns in the individual. Building up the size of the abdominal muscles will be a help too - to ensure there's something decent to see once the fat has been stripped - and you won't do this by doing hundreds of reps and too often.

People seem to throw all their logic out the window when it comes to building abs. I see many bodybuilders at the gym who otherwise train quite sensibly (a body part trained every 5 - 7 days), train abs ever single day or at least every other day. I ask them why but never get any sensible answers. Most of these guys need to put some effort into training legs and calves instead of wasting all that energy doing set after set of low intensity ab crunches.

[robblok]

I do think that i might have to go lower then 90 kg now to get a 6 pack might be 88 not sure. Will see. Might be that things start to change at some point. But still 5 kg is a big difference if i ad 2 more its 7 kg from now.

Anyway time will tell.

I'll bet after this herculean effort you'll be thinking twice before you let things slip again.

I'm curious, are you aiming for new territory, or are you trying to get back to previous form?

I am already now on new territory, im looking better as ever. I have never been this weight before with this amount of muscle. I think because it all goes slower now its harder to let it slip. I am also not totally paranoid about bad foods anymore. I try to avoid them but because things are all long term i dont get crazy if i eat something.

You guys can call me Rob by the way, that robo or robblock (some try that too) is all wrong Its just my lfirst and last name together.

I see my abs too but not much definition. I will see where i have to go to get lean. I do know i look better now then ever. Still not of course where i want to be.

But like i said its an ongoing effort, i will let it slip a bit in November / December when my parents are here. I will try to still control the food intake but i cant really train when im on the islands in the south. But i will be snorkeling a lot there.

[glbv]

I train abs 3-4 times a week as well as my forarms and calves. These muscles recover mush much faster and can be trained more often. Now as for how you train them doing 60 crunches is idiotic, its just like any muscle in the sense that it needs to be hit HARD. Do kneeling ab curls with a cable machine, use the crunch machine go heavy, do leglifts with a kettle ball, declined sittups with a 45 on your chest.

Same goes for calves and forearms, 100lb barbell wrist curls, 80lb reverse curls, non of this 20lb wrist curls 90 times like i see so often.

Calves are straight forward hit them hard and go deep with the motion, if you dont feel it getting super tight your doing something wrong. After I work my calves particularly on leg day I genuinely have trouble walking. Not because of pain or anything but because my legs are so swollen tight that they refuse to move. Build tree trunks not little branches.

[tropo]

I train abs 3-4 times a week as well as my forarms and calves. These muscles recover mush much faster and can be trained more often. Now as for how you train them doing 60 crunches is idiotic, its just like any muscle in the sense that it needs to be hit HARD. Do kneeling ab curls with a cable machine, use the crunch machine go heavy, do leglifts with a kettle ball, declined sittups with a 45 on your chest.

Same goes for calves and forearms, 100lb barbell wrist curls, 80lb reverse curls, non of this 20lb wrist curls 90 times like i see so often.

Calves are straight forward hit them hard and go deep with the motion, if you dont feel it getting super tight your doing something wrong. After I work my calves particularly on leg day I genuinely have trouble walking. Not because of pain or anything but because my legs are so swollen tight that they refuse to move. Build tree trunks not little branches.

You'll probably give up wrist curls and other such exercises when you get a bit older. They're unnecessary if you're hitting heavy weights on other exercises and can easily (and will eventually) lead to overuse tendinitis because the wrists are being used for every single upper body movement you do in the gym and very prone to overuse injuries. You remind me of when I was 23 - did every exercise in the book - even neck exercises with neck straps. Come to think of it I even used to do a cable exercise for the tibialis anterior. These days I never give forearms a second thought, but I have good forearms nevertheless and you won't see me getting around with a wrist support straps.

I respectfully disagree about having to train abs 3 - 4 times per week because they recover faster. If you hit them hard with heavy weights, they take just as long to recover as any other muscle group. Easy proof of this would be to stop training them for a month and then come in and bomb them. They'll be sore for many days - as many as a sore chest, back, legs etc. If you give them a good long rest (5 days or more) you'll find they are stronger too - but you need a good ab machine to test the difference. I test my ab strength on a pin stack leg raise machine doing full contractions and extension - knees to chest.

All you're doing by training them so often is limiting their strength and size increase by over-training them and building muscular endurance. That will not translate into a better looking midsection.

I also disagree with the concept of training calves so often. I've always had very strong calves (not huge, but strong) and work them strictly with very heavy weights. If I work them too often I end up with injuries in the bones and tendons of the feet because of the loads I put on them. They're one of the strongest muscles of the body but they get worked all day long when you're walking, climbing stairs etc. Once a week with legs is more than enough. How they feel when you train them is not so important as the workload you put on them. It's pretty easy to get a lactic acid burn using very light weights, but you're not going to build them. Lactic acid burns and pumps are overrated.

... but, in the end, calves are never going to get huge unless you have the genes for them. You can improve them a bit, but not a great deal. Some of the best bodybuilders could never build them no matter what they tried. I've seen quite a few people with monster calves who never do any specific calf exercises. Calf implants are the way many bodybuilders go these days. You can guarantee the pro bodybuilders with small calves have tried every trick in the book to build them naturally.

[glbv]

I used to get sore abs but even after just destroying them for even 30-40 minutes the tightness/pump is more or less gone 6-10 hours later. Never sore in the morning like I used to.

As for not doing forearms because you lift heavy upper body is to say someone doesn't want to do calves cause they squat heavy. There are very few exercises that work on size and not just grip strength. Forearms im going for size as well, cracks my up to see guys with 18in biceps with these little child forearms.

For calves I completely agree you can work them and you will only grow so much, but I have fat guy calves. Any exfatguy out there is easy to spot once their ripped cause of their huge calves that developed due to carrying around 100lb+ extra every day for years. Ive had some of the juiced up guys at the gym ask me what I did to get my calves so big (many times after I hit them its difficult to fit my jeans over them) and i just tell them to get fat for a few years.

[robblok]

Logger

I told you guys i wanted to keep data of my training. I found my handwriting sucks. But i always have an ipad with me in the gym. I train alone so it is connected to the sound system. But after some looking around i found logger. It's cheap and simple it will keep track of my workouts with minimum effort. Just punching in a number after finishing a set.

It will be nice to keep track this way. I find it especially handy when you just started a new program. Later you might know all your weights by heart but when you start it can help you to look back.

[tropo]

As for not doing forearms because you lift heavy upper body is to say someone doesn't want to do calves cause they squat heavy. There are very few exercises that work on size and not just grip strength. Forearms im going for size as well, cracks my up to see guys with 18in biceps with these little child forearms.

Sorry to disagree again... and nice try!

The calves are hardly activated when squatting, and anyway, most people only squat once a week or so. Forearms are a totally different story.

All the forearms does is grip and flex. Sure there extension too, but it's limited. These activities are done whenever you pick up a weight and they're activated during every upper body exercise therefore they get hit 3, 4 or more times per week.

I haven't done any direct forearm work for about 20 years and they're fine, in fact they're big in proportion to my upper arms... but you have to consider I've always been in the pits doing the heavy barbell and dumbbell work.

Ultimately all you're going to do with heavy wrist curls is end up with a wrist injury, because the wrists are so heavily worked on all upper body work.

You like to make comparisons.... Trying to get decent forearms from doing wrist curls is like trying to build quads doing leg extensions. If you must do forearm work pick up a heavy barbell and grip and release to finger tips. You can even flex the hand forward a bit at the top of the movement to increase the contraction - that's how you build forearms with less chance of injury.

Eventually you'll agree - maybe in another 10 - 20 years or if your wrists start to hurt. The wrists are more prone to overuse injury than any other part of the body.

Edited May 11, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

Logger

I told you guys i wanted to keep data of my training. I found my handwriting sucks. But i always have an ipad with me in the gym. I train alone so it is connected to the sound system. But after some looking around i found logger. It's cheap and simple it will keep track of my workouts with minimum effort. Just punching in a number after finishing a set.

It will be nice to keep track this way. I find it especially handy when you just started a new program. Later you might know all your weights by heart but when you start it can help you to look back.

You got me thinking about logs. I've filled up book after book logging my workouts over the years. All they did was collect dust and eventually get thrown out. Not long ago I threw out lots of old log books from the 90's.

I'm lucky, I need reading glasses to do that now and I can't train with them on because I sweat too much.

Edited May 11, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Logger

I told you guys i wanted to keep data of my training. I found my handwriting sucks. But i always have an ipad with me in the gym. I train alone so it is connected to the sound system. But after some looking around i found logger. It's cheap and simple it will keep track of my workouts with minimum effort. Just punching in a number after finishing a set.

It will be nice to keep track this way. I find it especially handy when you just started a new program. Later you might know all your weights by heart but when you start it can help you to look back.

You got me thinking about logs. I've filled up book after book logging my workouts over the years. All they did was collect dust and eventually get thrown out. Not long ago I threw out lots of old log books from the 90's.

I'm lucky, I need reading glasses to do that now and I can't train with them on because I sweat too much.

I tried it writing it down.. did not work was too much work during training. But this is different just tip with the fingers and its neat and i can read it back.

But i think for me its a way to get my dumbel exercises up in weight.. plates i usually know but dumbels stay at the same weight too long.

[glbv]

For logging I use gym buddy, its an Iphone app and its great can customize absolutely anything and it has built in timers so you know when your rest period is over and you gotta get your ass in gear. Shows your lifting progression and when you enter your lift you get a little whohoo if you set a new record for that lift. The only downfall of this is after about a year of useing it you need to wipe some older data or it starts to get slow, not a big issue but its something.

For logging food i use Tap and Track, I can honestly say without this phone program I would have never made it as far as I have. I plan my weeks meals ahead of time, shop accordingly and allow 300-400 calories of play a day so if i want a chocolate bar I can and i still have my proteins and fats in.

[tropo]

.But i think for me its a way to get my dumbel exercises up in weight.. plates i usually know but dumbels stay at the same weight too long.

Yeah, it takes a lot of determination to increase DB weights on various exercises, but the minimum jump is usually 5lbs per side or 10lbs overall on bilateral exercises and there's a lot of coordination work going on when you lift DBs.

... but there you go again - focusing on how much you're lifting. I don't sweat about how much is on the DB or BB - I go for a good solid feel. One day it can be a much lighter weight than the next day as I switch the order of the exercises around a lot - this takes your mind off how much you're lifting and puts the focus more on the function and feel of the muscles you're training.

Edited May 11, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

if i want a chocolate bar I can and i still have my proteins and fats in.

I've still got a 1kg block of chocolate in the refrigerator I received at Christmas. You want it? I'm afraid to open it up because I know I won't stop at a few squares.

[robblok]

.But i think for me its a way to get my dumbel exercises up in weight.. plates i usually know but dumbels stay at the same weight too long.

Yeah, it takes a lot of determination to increase DB weights on various exercises, but the minimum jump is usually 5lbs per side or 10lbs overall on bilateral exercises and there's a lot of coordination work going on when you lift DBs.

... but there you go again - focusing on how much you're lifting. I don't sweat about how much is on the DB or BB - I go for a good solid feel. One day it can be a much lighter weight than the next day as I switch the order of the exercises around a lot - this takes your mind off how much you're lifting and puts the focus more on the function and feel of the muscles you're training.

I don't care what i lift, but i like to know that the weights i take to start an exercise are the right ones. So looking back at what you did gives you an idea. Also its good to track progress over time. Then you know what to do.

Reason for me is im using my own dumbels so i have to add and subtract weights. I got 3 sets so its kinda important to know how much i need to put on.

[robblok]

if i want a chocolate bar I can and i still have my proteins and fats in.

I've still got a 1kg block of chocolate in the refrigerator I received at Christmas. You want it? I'm afraid to open it up because I know I won't stop at a few squares.

I know the feeling once i start on something like that i wont stop easy.

[robblok]

@tropo,

I want my weights up for dumbel exercises, not because i want to lift more but because i seen the effect of 5 x 5 on my. I got more muscular, because it constantly pushed me.

So exercising with the same weight all the time obviously does not increase your muscle size. My goal is having great workouts and either i do a few more reps or a bit more weight its good to know what you did last time as a reference point.

I have never ever been really strong in my biceps and i use light weights but i really dont care i got a pair of decent biceps. The only lifts that i do care about weight wise are squat / deads / bench and they have been decreasing a bit lately. But my weight has too, so do i stop diet or not. I did not stop my diet, so that shows that im committed to weight loss and not strength.

[glbv]

Ya I have to buy it in bars or preset sizes or I would eat that all 100%. If i buy it I WILL eat it alll, horrible habit, almost seems like an addiction. Ive gone through 5000 calories in an hour before very easily due to candy intake. Haribo candy is the bane of my existence, my mom sends care packages with 30-50 huge bags full of it and i just down them all.

[tropo]

Ya I have to buy it in bars or preset sizes or I would eat that all 100%. If i buy it I WILL eat it alll, horrible habit, almost seems like an addiction. Ive gone through 5000 calories in an hour before very easily due to candy intake. Haribo candy is the bane of my existence, my mom sends care packages with 30-50 huge bags full of it and i just down them all.

LOL. My 1kg block contains about 5280 calories. I wouldn't knock that off in a sitting - perhaps I'd stop after a few rows.

[tropo]

Ya I have to buy it in bars or preset sizes or I would eat that all 100%. If i buy it I WILL eat it alll, horrible habit, almost seems like an addiction. Ive gone through 5000 calories in an hour before very easily due to candy intake. Haribo candy is the bane of my existence, my mom sends care packages with 30-50 huge bags full of it and i just down them all.

Just a hypothetical question. If you sat down and consumed 5000 calories from chocolate in an hour, how much of that would turn to body fat?

[Neha]

Ya I have to buy it in bars or preset sizes or I would eat that all 100%. If i buy it I WILL eat it alll, horrible habit, almost seems like an addiction. Ive gone through 5000 calories in an hour before very easily due to candy intake. Haribo candy is the bane of my existence, my mom sends care packages with 30-50 huge bags full of it and i just down them all.

Just a hypothetical question. If you sat down and consumed 5000 calories from chocolate in an hour, how much of that would turn to body fat?

Loving this conversation.

The answer would depend on what kind of chocolate it is (dark chocolate/regular), how much of carb and fat it has, your diet and current activity level for the day as well as your TDEE/BMR. You will most likely go into a caloric surplus eating that because I guess your BMR is not that high and neither is your activity level that you would burn 5000cal/day.

As a very rough estimate, if you burn 2000 calories in total including all your activity, you will be in a 3000 calorie surplus. A pound of fat is 3500 calories. You will end up storing almost a pound of fat. Not to mention the water weight from carbohydrate consumption (3-4g of water per gram of carbohydrate)

If you have done some glycogen-depleting exercise, some of it will go into replenishing that, but it would not be a very significant amount and will still add to your weight (not fat) I think - that is still a little unclear for me.

What do you think?

[glbv]

Everything about carbs above is so much broscience i cant even begin to break it down. Yes 3500 calories is 1lb of fat, and yes in theory if my daily expenditure was 1500, and my excess for the day was 5000. The chance that I will put on 1lb from that is extremely unlikely as your body doesn't work in a perfect 24hour time frame. Doesn't say oh shit its midnight better count of what i didnt use.

Ive gone on binges where Ive consumed upwards of 15,000 in a day and that resulted in 3lbs total, not fat but just 3lbs total. To start talking about glycogen is meaningless unless you are a marathon runner, then you can start thinking about it. Everyday schmuck like myself in the gym even if i go all out for 2-3 hours im no where near depleted and anyone saying they are is full of it.

Edit: Just an addon, due to all this conversation about delectible treats today Ive said fuc_k it got x2 bags of haribo, 2 chocolate bars 30g each, 4 truffles, and just finished some weinersnitchel with mushroom sauce. To finish today will have 450g chicken, 6eggs, 6 slices of bread, 3 slices of cheese, x2 scoops of banana protein and some whole milk. Roughly ending at 3500-4k for the day.

Get fat hurr

Edited May 12, 2012 by glbv

[tropo]

Loving this conversation.

The answer would depend on what kind of chocolate it is (dark chocolate/regular), how much of carb and fat it has, your diet and current activity level for the day as well as your TDEE/BMR. You will most likely go into a caloric surplus eating that because I guess your BMR is not that high and neither is your activity level that you would burn 5000cal/day.

As a very rough estimate, if you burn 2000 calories in total including all your activity, you will be in a 3000 calorie surplus. A pound of fat is 3500 calories. You will end up storing almost a pound of fat. Not to mention the water weight from carbohydrate consumption (3-4g of water per gram of carbohydrate)

If you have done some glycogen-depleting exercise, some of it will go into replenishing that, but it would not be a very significant amount and will still add to your weight (not fat) I think - that is still a little unclear for me.

What do you think?

Interesting....

Let's talk specifically about this 1kg block of Cadbury's milk chocolate.

Total calories: 5250

Total fat: 297 grams x 9 = 2673 calories

... and some estimates I came across:

Carbohydrates: 57% = 570 grams x 4 = 2280 calories

Protein: 7% = 70 grams = 280 calories

That adds up to 5233 total, so it's pretty close.

I don't know if a person's BMR would have much influence on consuming 2280 calories in the form of carbs in an hour. That would present an emergency for the system and have to be taken care of immediately. If the person had just performed a lot of exercise, some of it could be used to replenish muscle glycogen and liver stores - the rest would probably be quickly converted to fat stores.

I don't know how the body would take care of the 2673 calories from fat. Any ideas?

Is it possible that some of the excess fat could be passed straight out without being digested?

This brings to mind crazy eating contests where the contestants consume hundred of hotdogs etc. Have you ever seen that Man vs Food series where the guy consumes ridiculous quantities of food in short order. Surely it's not all digested.

Why am I interested in this? I wouldn't mind a decent binge every now and again if I can get away with it.

Edited May 12, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

I had a mini binge, i went to sizzler had some nice salads (but with a bit of dressing). Had a nice chopped beef burger and a sausage and some other stuff. And to top it off 2 of those chocolate deserts. But i just had 2 meals today and that was one of them. So it wont matter that much. But ill see some difference in weight tomorrow probably because of the salt levels.

I share Tropo's view that not everything you consume gets digested if you talke real large quantities. Or at least i hope it works that way.

[glbv]

Everything you put into your body will be digested, if you fast like I do and take in 2500 calories for dinner im still digesting around breakfast time, its a very long process to complete. There was a study im trying to find and it showed that the only time you dont digest absolutely everything is at extreme numbers was around 15000+ and even then it was so small 100or so that when your at that consumption level it doesnt matter.

As for large portions I was the 5th person to complete the "Biggest burger in Asia" challenge at Cafe Europe on Soi 20. That was about 1 year ago, was massive. Did it in about 40 minutes if i remember. I gained about 1kg that morning even when that was all i ate the whole day.

[tropo]

As for large portions I was the 5th person to complete the "Biggest burger in Asia" challenge at Cafe Europe on Soi 20. That was about 1 year ago, was massive. Did it in about 40 minutes if i remember. I gained about 1kg that morning even when that was all i ate the whole day.

Which leads to another interesting question. If for example you ate 5000 calories by consuming a block of chocolate in an hour or spread the same quantity of chocolate over a 24 hour period, would it make any difference in the amount of fat you'd store?

My guess is that if you spread it over the day you'd have more chance of burning some of the calories up and you'd gain less fat as a result.

[tropo]

I had a mini binge, i went to sizzler had some nice salads (but with a bit of dressing). Had a nice chopped beef burger and a sausage and some other stuff. And to top it off 2 of those chocolate deserts. But i just had 2 meals today and that was one of them. So it wont matter that much. But ill see some difference in weight tomorrow probably because of the salt levels.

I share Tropo's view that not everything you consume gets digested if you talke real large quantities. Or at least i hope it works that way.

Talking about binges, I ate a Hilton buffet 2 weeks ago. After my 1st dessert my stomach started hurting. I was feeling really crook with a sore and bloated stomach after the 3rd dessert. The thing is that the quantity of food I consumed was small compared to what I used to be able to put away at a good buffet. Does the stomach lose elasticity when you're not used to eating much at meal times. This is the first time I can remember having a sore stomach from eating (besides food poisoning, that is). The bloating was ridiculous too.

[tropo]

Everything you put into your body will be digested,

LOL - not cucumber seeds.

[Neha]

Everything about carbs above is so much broscience i cant even begin to break it down. Yes 3500 calories is 1lb of fat, and yes in theory if my daily expenditure was 1500, and my excess for the day was 5000. The chance that I will put on 1lb from that is extremely unlikely as your body doesn't work in a perfect 24hour time frame. Doesn't say oh shit its midnight better count of what i didnt use.

Um, what broscience? Where have I said any of that especially the midnight stuff? I'm working with hypothetical numbers and I never said it works in a perfect 24 hour time frame, it was a hypothetical time frame that could help me estimate the BMR and how much of the excess calories would be stored in fat. That's why I also included that it would depend on the person's diet in general as well as exercise habits (say for example you only have that 5000kcal chocolate the entire week and no other food, that's not gonna turn into fat. If you have it over one day and you are eating maintenance the rest of the days, it would. Thanks for twisting my words and your panties in a bunch. Deficit matters over time, not just a 24-hour day, I think everyone knows that, even the bro-est of bros.

Ive gone on binges where Ive consumed upwards of 15,000 in a day and that resulted in 3lbs total, not fat but just 3lbs total. To start talking about glycogen is meaningless unless you are a marathon runner, then you can start thinking about it. Everyday schmuck like myself in the gym even if i go all out for 2-3 hours im no where near depleted and anyone saying they are is full of it.

This is why I said *IF* you perform glycogen depleting exercise. And I don't know what kind of exercises you do at the gym but if you spend 2-3 hours there without *ANY* glycogen depletion whatsoever, then you were probably like the guys who just sit there and text or walk on the treadmill for 20 mins, and do 1000s of sets of bicep curls before going home. Try doing some compound exercises for 3-4 sets for 10-15 reps with heavy weights then tell me you haven't any depleted glycogen *at all* (granted it won't be as much as running a marathon), that's you exemplifying broscience and yes being an everyday schmuck, mate.

I don't know what on earth would make you say my statements about carbs are "broscience". Man this place is sometimes worse than bodybuilding.com forums. Prolly where you get your info from. Geez. I feel so enlightened.

[Neha]

As for large portions I was the 5th person to complete the "Biggest burger in Asia" challenge at Cafe Europe on Soi 20. That was about 1 year ago, was massive. Did it in about 40 minutes if i remember. I gained about 1kg that morning even when that was all i ate the whole day.

Which leads to another interesting question. If for example you ate 5000 calories by consuming a block of chocolate in an hour or spread the same quantity of chocolate over a 24 hour period, would it make any difference in the amount of fat you'd store?

My guess is that if you spread it over the day you'd have more chance of burning some of the calories up and you'd gain less fat as a result.

I think, though I'm not sure, If you ate it in an hour, you would probably end up eating other food the rest of the day, which would cause more fat gain. If you spread it throughout the day, you probably won't eat anything else so you'd end up storing less fat. However, if you only eat that block of chocolate and nothing else, then I'm not sure it matters if you spread it out or not...