Americans Abandoning Citizenship In Record Numbers Due To Government Tax/Fine Harrassment

[Time Traveller]

Naam, I see your point. But the US says that unless you're a citizen, then there is no guarantee of admittance to the US, no matter whether you own property or pay taxes or whatever. It's very much similar to Thailand in that respect. Incidentally dual citizens of Thailand are treated with more suspicions by Thai immigration than they are at US immigration. Go figure?

[Naam]

You only have to report the account or combination of accounts if the total value exceeds $10k US in at anytime during the year. So an account with THB 300k would not need to be reported.

every Satang of interest has to be reported.

[Naam]

please enlighten us why a US passport has super value for those who opt not to live in the Greatest Nation on Earth™. do you see some value that a US passport holder is not allowed to travel to Cuba? is it valuable that a US citizen, living with his family in Nakhon Nowhere, is required to pay income tax?

US passport/citizenship provides these benefits:

can return to the US if situation in Thailand becomes untenable (just saying it's possible, not likely)

easy entry into first-world countries for travel

access to US highly-developed securities market for investment, e.g. low-cost mutual funds

preferential rules of inheritance for spouse who is a US citizen

One does have to consider that the benefits outweigh the very considerable disadvantage of taxation on worldwide income. However, you have to earn a lot in Thailand to become liable for US income tax over and above Thai income tax. I wouldn't think a US passport would offer much over a German passport, for example, but it does compared to a Thai pp.

when reading "access to US highly-developed securities market for investment" i nearly peed in my pants

let me tell you a secret... anybody with money, no matter what nationality, can access this US highly-developed securities market. an interesting fact is that a US citizen is limited by certain restrictions and has no access to a zillion thousands of securities a non US citizen (even a Thai) can buy except if he applies for the status "accredited investor" according to SEC rule #501 (person with income exceeding $200,000 in each of the two most recent years or joint income with a spouse exceeding $300,000 for those years and a reasonable expectation of the same income level in the current year).

"earning a lot in Thailand" is irrelevant. this thread is not about some Americans who work for a pittance anywhere on this planet but about high net worth US individuals who are p*ssed off paying taxes although their living abroad prevents them to enjoy whatever goodies the "homeland" provides.

[Naam]

Naam, I see your point. But the US says that unless you're a citizen, then there is no guarantee of admittance to the US, no matter whether you own property or pay taxes or whatever. It's very much similar to Thailand in that respect. Incidentally dual citizens of Thailand are treated with more suspicions by Thai immigration than they are at US immigration. Go figure?

no that's not my point TT. i just mentioned one personal situation where a US passport would have come in handy and asked the OP "farang000999" why he thinks a US passport is "super valuable".

[flying]

an interesting fact is that a US citizen is limited by certain restrictions and has no access to a zillion thousands of securities a non US citizen (even a Thai) can buy except

That is what I meant in this post in another thread when I said I could not buy due to $$ & being a US citizen

[CaptHaddock]

of course gift tax applies when assets above a certain value are given aways. but last time i checked it's the one who receives the gift who is taxed and not the donor. in the unlikely event that the IRS wants to tax the donor there are many ways to spend any amount of money instead of "gifting" it.

Under US tax law the donor is liable for the gift tax, if any, not the recipient.

[Naam]

of course gift tax applies when assets above a certain value are given aways. but last time i checked it's the one who receives the gift who is taxed and not the donor. in the unlikely event that the IRS wants to tax the donor there are many ways to spend any amount of money instead of "gifting" it.

Under US tax law the donor is liable for the gift tax, if any, not the recipient.

another valid reason to drop a US passport and become a citizen of Uzbekistan

[Naam]

Under US tax law the donor is liable for the gift tax, if any, not the recipient.

i wonder how many Americans who bought land and homes for their Thai partners paid gift tax to the IRS

Edited April 24, 2012 by Naam

[Jingthing]

Now here's a sign this is really getting serious: the Mexicans are leaving!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/for-first-time-since-depression-more-mexicans-leave-us-than-enter/2012/04/23/gIQApyiDdT_story.html

For first time since Depression, more Mexicans leave U.S. than enter

[CaptHaddock]

Under US tax law the donor is liable for the gift tax, if any, not the recipient.

i wonder how many Americans who bought land and homes for their Thai partners paid gift tax to the IRS

US gift tax rules permit a gift of up to about $130,000 to a spouse who is not a US citizen. There is no gift tax at all on gifts to a spouse who is a US citizen. In addition, there is also a separate, lifetime exclusion of $1 million.

Basically, no one pays the gift tax in the US.

[bangkokburning]

I believe gifts over 10K must be reported.

[Naam]

if a US citizen gambles in Monte Carlo, Singapore or Macau and loses a few hundred thousand dollars, will the IRS charge gift tax for the money "gifted" to the casino? there are many ways to skin the IRS a cat!

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I believe gifts over 10K must be reported.

I believe it is up to $13,000 a year and the giver pays the tax.

[Naam]

How to Pay No Taxes: 10 Strategies Used by the Rich - Bloomberg Businessweek

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-17/how-to-pay-no-taxes-10-strategies-used-by-the-rich#p2

[CaptHaddock]

I believe gifts over 10K must be reported.

I believe it is up to $13,000 a year and the giver pays the tax.

That's the tax-free limit for giving to anyone in a single year. The limit on giving to your non-US-citizen wife is separate. There is no limit on giving to your US-citizen wife. Even gifts to a single recipient over $13k in a single year may be excluded by applying the lifetime limit of $1 million. So, many ways to avoid paying. No one pays the gift tax.

[farang000999]

I dont see why this is such a big deal, unless you are a tax evader. If you have a non-tourist visa, you can open a current account easily. if you have a real reason to be in a country, you can open an account easily.

No, you can't open a brokerage account and buy GOOGLE and try to circumvent paying taxes.

These rules, like everything the IRS does, is mainly to keep the big fish in line. Take a look at audit rates by income level. They are not trying to get JingThing.

Very few truly wealthy individuals are renouncing citizenship. the US passport is still super valuable and guess what there are many people the world over who would gladly purchase one if possible. most renouncing are probably khao sarn road pacifists.

there was a time (i was 16 or 17) when i was willing to sacrifice one of my balls for a US passport. ten years later i could have gotten one with a snap of my fingers but i politely declined. and ten years ago a U.S. passport would have come in handy when foreigners (like me and my wife) were harassed at the port of entry inspite of having long term visas, paying income tax and fancy property taxes whenever we wanted to spend some months in our US home. end of 2003 my wife, arriving from London was told in Atlanta "having a home in Florida is not a valid reason to enter the United States. you are paying taxes, so what? we are the INS not the IRS!"

please enlighten us why a US passport has super value for those who opt not to live in the Greatest Nation on Earth™. do you see some value that a US passport holder is not allowed to travel to Cuba? is it valuable that a US citizen, living with his family in Nakhon Nowhere, is required to pay income tax?

I did not say that US passport is superior to other 1st world passports but certainly you can see the advantage of having and being a citizen of the USA versus Cambodia or China? The US guarantees it's citizens various natural rights. Notice how the Americans usually only get a year or so, as opposed to 15, for a certain unnamed crime in the Land of Smiles TM?

I am sure many people from Argentina would have preferred an American passport.

There is a reason why 60 year old America/Europe men come to Thailand to screw 20 year old women and not the other way around. It is because one society has proved to be vastly superior of another economically.

[KeyserSoze01]

...

If you were to search "Miraflores" it will be worlds different. This is like (one of) Lima's safe and beautiful oasis.

...

Miraflores? Yes, cool place and that's where I stayed. Agree the food is amazing. Like I said, I recommend a visit. I just don't think it will become an expat magnet. That might be a feature to some. BTW, Miraflores isn't that safe. The American friend I was traveling with got mugged in Miraflores. In Miraflores cafes the custom is attach any bags you have with you to ... the furniture. The infamous Dutchman Van Sloot murdered a Peruvian girl in, you guessed it ... Miraflores. But compared to most neighborhoods in Lima, yes "very" safe.

Anecdotal hyperbole. Just how much time did you spend in Peru to come up with your negative outlook on an entire country?

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I dont see why this is such a big deal, unless you are a tax evader. If you have a non-tourist visa, you can open a current account easily. if you have a real reason to be in a country, you can open an account easily.

No, you can't open a brokerage account and buy GOOGLE and try to circumvent paying taxes.

These rules, like everything the IRS does, is mainly to keep the big fish in line. Take a look at audit rates by income level. They are not trying to get JingThing.

Very few truly wealthy individuals are renouncing citizenship. the US passport is still super valuable and guess what there are many people the world over who would gladly purchase one if possible. most renouncing are probably khao sarn road pacifists.

there was a time (i was 16 or 17) when i was willing to sacrifice one of my balls for a US passport. ten years later i could have gotten one with a snap of my fingers but i politely declined. and ten years ago a U.S. passport would have come in handy when foreigners (like me and my wife) were harassed at the port of entry inspite of having long term visas, paying income tax and fancy property taxes whenever we wanted to spend some months in our US home. end of 2003 my wife, arriving from London was told in Atlanta "having a home in Florida is not a valid reason to enter the United States. you are paying taxes, so what? we are the INS not the IRS!"

please enlighten us why a US passport has super value for those who opt not to live in the Greatest Nation on Earth™. do you see some value that a US passport holder is not allowed to travel to Cuba? is it valuable that a US citizen, living with his family in Nakhon Nowhere, is required to pay income tax?

I did not say that US passport is superior to other 1st world passports but certainly you can see the advantage of having and being a citizen of the USA versus Cambodia or China? The US guarantees it's citizens various natural rights. Notice how the Americans usually only get a year or so, as opposed to 15, for a certain unnamed crime in the Land of Smiles TM?

I am sure many people from Argentina would have preferred an American passport.

There is a reason why 60 year old America/Europe men come to Thailand to screw 20 year old women and not the other way around. It is because one society has proved to be vastly superior of another economically.

Farang if you are comparing countries for passports, the UK can visit the most countries visa free 164 compared to 159 for the US. And they don't expect their citizens to keep paying even when they are not being a drain on the country by being a expat. I think many Americans would happily swap for a UK passport. although the crappy weather there is a deterrent.

[KeyserSoze01]

Miraflores is also an excellent choice to hide from the IRS. one sells all assets and takes the cash (preferably in small used notes) to Miraflores, buys a bar which doesn't make any profit and each april fills a '1040' with a lot of zeroes before mailing. should an agent of the IRS turn up he is served free drinks... et voilà!

And just how does this shield you from being taxed on the capital used for your original investment as you are paying for the property with after-tax income.

[KeyserSoze01]

I thought the USA was THE country that everyone in the world wants to immigrate to? That's what our cousins across the Pond keep telling us - loudly

The link posted by the OP says that 1800 US citizens renounced their citizenship.

In 2011, 694,193 foreign nationals over the age of 18 became US citizens, 9246 from the United Kingdom. Get it, cousin?

http://www.dhs.gov/x...atz_fr_2011.pdf

Thanks for the info. As usual, the pretense for the entire thread is flawed. Although it is something I've come to expect on TV.

[Jingthing]

...

If you were to search "Miraflores" it will be worlds different. This is like (one of) Lima's safe and beautiful oasis.

...

Miraflores? Yes, cool place and that's where I stayed. Agree the food is amazing. Like I said, I recommend a visit. I just don't think it will become an expat magnet. That might be a feature to some. BTW, Miraflores isn't that safe. The American friend I was traveling with got mugged in Miraflores. In Miraflores cafes the custom is attach any bags you have with you to ... the furniture. The infamous Dutchman Van Sloot murdered a Peruvian girl in, you guessed it ... Miraflores. But compared to most neighborhoods in Lima, yes "very" safe.

Anecdotal hyperbole. Just how much time did you spend in Peru to come up with your negative outlook on an entire country?

Three weeks in Lima. Only Lima. I know, that's weird. I plead guilty of that.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Here is something interesting I just read.

"I was approached recently by a member of our Sovereign Man community who filed the paperwork to relinquish US citizenship some time ago. Long story short, after an incomprehensibly long wait, the US government finally sent him a reply: Application DENIED."

[flying]

Here is something interesting I just read.

"I was approached recently by a member of our Sovereign Man community who filed the paperwork to relinquish US citizenship some time ago. Long story short, after an incomprehensibly long wait, the US government finally sent him a reply: Application DENIED."

That is interesting BTDT

Wonder what the reason is.....

I have read that if your in arrears for taxes or child support you will be denied

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Here is something interesting I just read.

"I was approached recently by a member of our Sovereign Man community who filed the paperwork to relinquish US citizenship some time ago. Long story short, after an incomprehensibly long wait, the US government finally sent him a reply: Application DENIED."

That is interesting BTDT

Wonder what the reason is.....

I have read that if your in arrears for taxes or child support you will be denied

Flying that could possible be the treason , the report didn't say much. Looking at the time I would guess you aren't in LOS yet. When do you plan to arrive? Enjoy your posts on TV perhaps one day we could meet. I forget where you plan to live here.

[Naam]

Here is something interesting I just read.

"I was approached recently by a member of our Sovereign Man community who filed the paperwork to relinquish US citizenship some time ago. Long story short, after an incomprehensibly long wait, the US government finally sent him a reply: Application DENIED."

where's the problem? a logical conclusion is that the chap who's application was denied holds already an alternative citizenship and of course a passport of that country. he moves his liquid assets to a different financial institution, thereby dropping handcuffs and leg chains... et voilà!

his/her only problem is that future travelling to the U.S. is most probably a no-no.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Here is something interesting I just read.

"I was approached recently by a member of our Sovereign Man community who filed the paperwork to relinquish US citizenship some time ago. Long story short, after an incomprehensibly long wait, the US government finally sent him a reply: Application DENIED."

where's the problem? a logical conclusion is that the chap who's application was denied holds already an alternative citizenship and of course a passport of that country. he moves his liquid assets to a different financial institution, thereby dropping handcuffs and leg chains... et voilà!

his/her only problem is that future travelling to the U.S. is most probably a no-no.

And the way things are going in the US I'm not sure that would be bad news.

[Naam]

Here is something interesting I just read.

"I was approached recently by a member of our Sovereign Man community who filed the paperwork to relinquish US citizenship some time ago. Long story short, after an incomprehensibly long wait, the US government finally sent him a reply: Application DENIED."

where's the problem? a logical conclusion is that the chap who's application was denied holds already an alternative citizenship and of course a passport of that country. he moves his liquid assets to a different financial institution, thereby dropping handcuffs and leg chains... et voilà!

his/her only problem is that future travelling to the U.S. is most probably a no-no.

And the way things are going in the US I'm not sure that would be bad news.

Bt, don't forget children and grandchildren who might be living in the U.S. of A.

[flying]

Flying that could possible be the treason , the report didn't say much. Looking at the time I would guess you aren't in LOS yet. When do you plan to arrive? Enjoy your posts on TV perhaps one day we could meet. I forget where you plan to live here.

Thanks BTDT

Yes a month out still but so much to do

Yes would be nice to meet you too.

We will be based in Chiang Mai. If I remember right your in Cha-Am

Enjoy your posts too!

Thanks

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Here is something interesting I just read.

"I was approached recently by a member of our Sovereign Man community who filed the paperwork to relinquish US citizenship some time ago. Long story short, after an incomprehensibly long wait, the US government finally sent him a reply: Application DENIED."

where's the problem? a logical conclusion is that the chap who's application was denied holds already an alternative citizenship and of course a passport of that country. he moves his liquid assets to a different financial institution, thereby dropping handcuffs and leg chains... et voilà!

his/her only problem is that future travelling to the U.S. is most probably a no-no.

And the way things are going in the US I'm not sure that would be bad news.

Bt, don't forget children and grandchildren who might be living in the U.S. of A.

And great grandchildren, have one entering college next year.

[Jingthing]

A rather related news item. "Rumors" that the IRS is specifically targeting American expats in Israel , Singapore, and Hong Kong for an increased number of expat audits. Of course the IRS won't comment, so for all we know this trend will hit U.S. expats everywhere. Also some good info in the article related to the new bank info sharing regulations and their timing, etc.

The accountants who spoke with Haaretz generally agreed that over the last two or three years, the U.S. administration has been steadily "tightening the screws" - as one accountant put it - as it cracks down on offshore tax evasion by U.S. citizens in an effort to bolster revenues and compliance.

http://www.haaretz.c...israel-1.426788

Edited April 27, 2012 by Jingthing