Another Generator Thread

[kwonitoy]

Throughout the years we have suffered our share of power outages, the rainy season is the worst time of year but it can go out at any time and for extended periods.

Last July Typhoon Nock-Ten knocked our power out for 75 hours.

I've got a smaller 2000watt gas powered generator for pumping water that I've used during longer outages to run the refrigerator, fans, TV, computer etc. But come bedtime there's that hot, unairconditioned bedroom to face.

Also running around trying to set up the generator during downpours, in the dark is not the easiest.

After Nock-ten and with the birth of my son imminent I started looking around for a better solution. There is a diesel genset called Kipor, made in China, good price, But made in China. I looked at the Caterpillar website, they make great stuff but too big for the house. Finally found the Onan/Cummins website.

In my work in the oil industry I'm very familiar with the Onan genset and know that they are well made, easy to use, and come in lots of various sizes.

I had been in touch with a TV member called genset whose business is generators, so last August the process was put into motion.

Due to his busy schedule and my work schedule it wasn't easy to co-ordinate, but e-mails were exchanged, phone calls made and last Friday was the big day.

My power problems solved forever. I'll try to do this al'la Crossy with a photo and comment inbetween

Truck from Bangkok was supposed to arrive at 9:00am, truck was at the house at 6:30 in the morning. Must have driven all night, it's 10 hours from Bangkok to my front door.

A good start

The rigger hooks it up

Up she goes

Down onto the blocks

Two pieces of pipe as rollers, and into the shed it goes.

The driver co-ordinated everything and had it offloaded and in the shed

by 8:00am.

A real good start to the day

John who has co-ordinated the day with Cummins is due to arrive at 9:00 am to help with the offload so when he arrives on time we're already ahead of the game.

I help John put up the Automatic Transfer Switch panel next to my breaker box in the garage

When I built the shed for the generator I installed the conduit with the cabeling required, so there's no need to pull wires on installation day.

Now we wait for the Cummins installation/commisoning team, they're due at 9:00 am also.

Cummins team is lost, phone calls are made.

It's also the hottest day of the year, 36C on its way to 42

More phone calls, Cummins team arrives at about 10:30 ish. It's not headed by the main installation guy, he couldn't make it so has sent an assistant. Phone calls are made

Set to work dressing up the cables

The young assistant seems to know what he's doing.

Many hours later at 6:00 PM problems have been encountered trying to get the remote start functions working on the genset.

It's been a boiling hot day, I'm tired and I can see everyone is rushing trying to get things solved and cutting corners. It was supposed to be a one day installation but that's not going to happen.

Everyone except me has a phone in their hand and the generator still won't fire up when the power is cut.

6:15 I call it. Time to drop your tools, pack up and come back tomorrow with a clear head and take another run at it.

Saturday dawns and it's much cooler. Many phone calls were made by the instalation crew during the night

Some changes I requested are made to the Automatic Transfer Switch panel and it now looks like this

Nice and neat, no exposed wiring

About 10:00 am on Saturady and with a battery out of their truck the genset fires up.

The battery from the generator is charged up and more phone calls are made, wiring checked, screw's tighted, circuits checked.

The main breaker going into the house is tripped to stop the power and the genset starts up automatically and takes up the load in about 10 seconds.

Later in the afternoon we're still doing system checks, there's a big black storm moving in, high wind, rain, lightning.

Suddenly the genset starts up, at first the folks inside thought the guys outside were starting it manualy

THE POWER IS OUT, and the genset has fired up and is now suppling the entire place. It contiunes to do so for anothere 8 hours when the mains come back on.

When the main power comes back on the ATS switches back to main power automaticaly with no noticable flickering of light. The genset runs for 5 more minuets, as programed and shuts its self down.

I am now independant of the shitty power grid that my house is attached to.

What a great feeling

[Deke]

Looks good.

Do you mind sharing:

1. The size of the genset?
   
2. The cost?
   
3. Is it diesel or gasoline?
   
4. Is the fuel storage inside the building or outside?
   

Thanks

[kwonitoy]

Thanks,

The power went off again last night and it made the wife and I laugh. I love that green machine

1. It's a 11kw

2. Genset alone is 330,000 baht. The Automatic Transfer Switch panel is the other pricey item @ 55,000 baht.

I originally wanted to get a smaller set rated at 7.5kw, the cost of it was 310,000 baht so to upgrade to 11kw for an extra 20,000 baht was a no-brainer

3 Its a Diesel, 2 cylinder, 1.3 L. It runs at 1,500 rpm and the enclosure is soundproofed. It's a lot quieter than the smaller gas set I've used and once I get the front of the building enclosed I won't hear a thing.

4 It holds 100 liters of diesel in a tank built into the base. I plan on getting at least a 500 L tank to put behind the shed. The fuel piping is designed to fit in an external tank.

[necronx99]

Tempting target for the lightfingered ?

[Naam]

Tempting target for the lightfingered ?

only for those with a crane.

[necronx99]

Tempting target for the lightfingered ?

only for those with a crane.

About 300 kg wet? Nah, bunch of strapping locals will have that winched into the back of a dmax in a flash.

[kwonitoy]

600Kg Dry weight + 100L of Diesel

Bolts to fasten it to the concrete are next weeks project, along with the front doors

[necronx99]

600Kg Dry weight + 100L of Diesel

Bolts to fasten it to the concrete are next weeks project, along with the front doors

[h90]

has it 3 phase or 2 phase?

I saw larger one at 95.000 incl. automatic start at the home pro (or home works???) just before the floods came.

I have a small one of the same brand, manual start, by pulling...Country of Origin....None....can't find anything.

Model 3000 can do 2800 Watt peak and 2500 for a longer time.

Looks VERY Chinese or worse. Doesn't start easy, Noisy like hell, technology 1960 (and service intervals), but works......

I thought about upgrading

[kwonitoy]

I'm not an electrician by any means, and I stand to be corrected

It is currently supplying single phase, just replacing what I get from the main grid.

And I do know it does have the capability to supply 3 phase power if wired for it

[h90]

I'm not an electrician by any means, and I stand to be corrected

It is currently supplying single phase, just replacing what I get from the main grid.

And I do know it does have the capability to supply 3 phase power if wired for it

Thanks!

(and I meant single phase before not 2....just too tired to think)

[genset]

Hi Guys,

I'd like to offer my thoughts and comments regarding Ken's generator/ATS installation, but first a little preamble to set the scene if I may.

I began looking at the generator market in Thailand 3 years ago. It was immediately clear that although good quality, name brand generator imports are available, the distributors of these machines have locked down the top end of the commercial market and show little interest in providing any incentives for domestic customers. Relatively cheap Chinese imports account for the majority of generators purchased for domestic use in the 2 to 10Kw range. It was also clear that there were few suppliers who could communicate clearly in English to offer advice on issues related to correctly sizing and installing a generator; then sell, transport, install, commission generator/ATS and offer a reasonable degree of after sales service.

I created a basic website to prove that a market exists for the type of service I wished to offer, and to date, it has received close to 50,000 hits. It has taken a while to establish my business here as I am employed in South East Asia by a company specializing in disaster recovery, but I have replied to numerous requests for advice free of charge and continue to do so.

I have established a good relationship with two suppliers who have expressed a desire to serve the expatriate domestic market in Thailand. The first is Kipor, one of the better Chinese manufacturers; they manufactured Digital Inverter generators under a 10 year license for Honda, then continued to manufacture under their own brand name when the contract was concluded. Kipor generators are sold in the U.S., Europe, Africa, Asia and the Middle East and offer a 'reasonable' level of quality and reliability, with a somewhat limited 'return to distributor' warranty of 6 months. The second supplier is Cummins Power Generation, a leading brand name manufacturer of very good quality standby and prime power generator/ATS systems. Cummins generators/ATS systems include a 2 year warranty from date of installation and they have a nationwide network of support engineers in Thailand to support warranty service calls. To my knowledge I am supplying generators from both manufacturers cheaper than any other supplier in Thailand (distributors included).

So... to Ken's generator/ATS installation; as Ken mentioned, the generator and ATS panel were delivered early morning. I arrived and the ATS panel was mounted close to his distribution board. I had already received a call from Cummins the night before, advising me that the senior engineer scheduled to commission the system was unavailable and they would be sending another commissioning team from Bangkok. They had trouble finding the location and when they arrived it was obvious to me that the lead chap, whilst a nice guy, was an apprentice who did not know how to complete the full commissioning of the generator/ATS system. This didn't sit well with me as I had arranged for the installation and commissioning of this system a month in advance. I have a direct line to Cummins senior management and used it to voice my displeasure. Over the next 18 hours, a Cummins design engineer spoke with the apprentice, the correct control connections were made, and the senior engineer originally slated to install the system, turned up on site to confirm the control wiring was correctly configured. As it is my preference to always switch the neutral connection on ATS installations, a further visit was made on Tuesday to reconfigure one of the sensing wires.

I have installed and commissioned a multitude of generators and ATS panels. All ATS systems operate on the same principle, but there are a number of different ATS controllers on the market and manufacturers design their systems in slightly different ways. Cummins ATS panels are manufactured to operate with their own Power Start Genset Controllers and as such, the manner in which their panels are designed (the arrangement of fuses, relays and control/sensing connections), is proprietary to Cummins. As you can see from the photograph below, there are 20 terminal blocks (marked by the green arrow) to which control wiring connections may be made. The Cummins installation manual is written for Cummins engineers in 'Cummins speak', so in order to ensure that commissioning was carried out correctly first time, I requested a team from Cummins to commission the ATS panel under my watchful eye.

I would like to make it clear that in no way am I disappointed with the quality or reliability of the Cummins generator and ATS purchased by Ken (and I believe Ken would agree with this statement), the system works beautifully and should provide Ken with many years of reliable service. As for my interaction with Cummins... all new relationships require a little tweaking and this is no exception; they are keen to work with me and in certain areas they excelled, but their desire not to lose face, by sending an unqualified apprentice rather than postpone for 24 hours led to unnecessary frustration. This will not happen again as I have now confirmed the correct configuration for control wiring between their generator and ATS controllers, and will commission all future ATS installations myself and be training my own like minded apprentices moving forward.

I love working in Thailand and with Thai people, but put a Cummins T Shirt on a Thai guy and you have a Thai guy in a Cummins T shirt... what can I say..? Thai's have a way of doing business which is not commensurate with the kind of service I want to offer, and it is therefore incumbent on me to nurture the kind of attitude and work ethic I would like to see expressed in those around me. This includes the service providers I use and to that end I have already begun the process of politely tearing them a new one, I expect the best from them so I can deliver that to my customers. The important thing is that Ken was able to interact in English with a single person... me, and I in turn dealt with all issues to deliver a working solution to Ken.

I appreciate Ken's feedback and hope that my candid approach reflects the manner in which I want to conduct business and the relationship I would like to develop with potential customers. I started a thread here at Thai Visa a few years ago which my be of interest to anybody who is looking for further information related to sizing, installation and operation of generators and ATS systems, please ignore the Kipor pricing as it is very much out of date, the thread can be found here

Please feel free to contact me directly if you would like additional information.

Genset

[kwonitoy]

Just an update after 2 weeks with the generator

It currently has 48 hours on the clock, more than I figured for this time of year, there's been power outages of an hour or two during the night that we had been unaware of before. The rainy season will only bring more power loss. We've been getting some crazy windstorms this year and 6 hours and up of no main grid power.

Fuel usage according to the manuel is 3.3l/hr, but that would be with a full load on an 11KVA machine, I'm not drawing anywhere near that amount of power so I've been using 1.5l/hr. The 100 liter tank will go a long way.

It is as close to seamless with the power transfer as your going to get without going for a house UPS system. The power goes out and less than 10 seconds later the power is on. Returning to main power, there is the ATS breaker that transfers power that makes a clunk out in the garage, but if you're not sitting in the living room you can't hear it and the only way you can tell the power is back on is that the generator shuts down.

It has definatly been money well spent, I wish I could have had something of this quality years ago.

Edited May 6, 2012 by kwonitoy

[prefabs]

Glad to see this all worked out well and the contributions from the Op and Genset are very good. If anyone is thinking of doing a similar installation, might I advise that you use the vendor Genset did. For the following reason.

A few years ago, a friend of mine who lives in Northern Queensland needed a new genset. He is out in the sticks, has only Solar Power and only needs a genset when his wife wants to use the washing machine. (true story) Anyway, his old one was problematic and he started researching and found that Chinese machines, including import taxes, shipping and transport to his nearest town to be half the price of the ones he could find in Australia. His contact in China seemed very clued up, and was very helpful. However, to this day, his generator has not turned up and his agent has stopped answering emails, unfortunataely. He reckons he was scammed, but I reckon it is only the old "slow boat to China" which has screwed him up

[genset]

Thanks to Ken for the update.

Regarding Prefabs additional comments, I'd just like to clarify that the 'Vendor' (the company which supplies my company) is Cummins Power Generation, but Ken purchased his generator and ATS system from Generator Solutions, not directly from Cummins. It is possible to buy directly from Cummins, but the deal I have with them enables me to make it more attractive to buy from my company than directly from the distributor.

I should also add that although your friend was unfortunate enough to pay for a product he did not receive, there is no suggestion of course that buying a Chinese generator from a local supplier will result in a similar experience; in my humble opinion, there are good reasons for purchasing a Cummins solution over the Chinese variant here in Thailand, manufacturing quality, warranty coverage period and reliable after sales service being the main three. Invariably, you get what you pay for as we all know. Ken made an informed decision to invest in a 'complete solution', rather than just purchasing a generator and generic ATS panel, this decision will provide him with the kind of long term peace of mind which until now, has been quite difficult to come by when making these type of purchases in Thailand.

For anybody who may be interested, I am adding data sheets for the generator and ATS panel used for Kens installation.

C8D5-C11D5 New with enclosure.pdf GTEC_40-2000Amp.pdf

Thanks again for your comments.

Genset

Edited May 8, 2012 by genset

[electau]

When you purchase electrical equipment eg such as a generator purchase from a distributor or agent within the country. Otherwise you will be regared as an importer with all the legal ramifications. Also you may not be able to claim any warranty. All installations should also have a defects liability clause written into the contract ( eg for defects in the electrical installation of a genset, for a period of 3 months for example.)