Husband - Partner - Spouse - B***h

[LeCharivari]

Call me old-fashioned (its a lot more pleasant than some of the epithets traded recently), but I cringe every time I hear someone's partner or boyfriend referred to as their "husband" or "spouse" almost as much as I do when a farang introduces their Thai boyfriend as "the wife".

I can't get excited too much either way about the gay marriage vs Civil Partnership argument, but does it really have to come with all the extra baggage of husband and wife / husband and husband / bride and groom / groom and groom? However you play it, it still ends up sounding like something out of a 1960's comedy.

In the UK the Consultation Paper on equal civil marriage, published recently, proposed that gender specific terms such as husband and wife will be replaced on official documentation by partner so that sexual preference would remain confidential.

Couldn't we, as a general guide, use similar terms here: boyfriend for, well ... boyfriend, partner for longer term relationships where wife would be appropriate in a straight relationship, and Partner for something official?

[Ijustwannateach]

I think the only thing you can count on is that no multinational group of MSM (whatever they call themselves or each other) is going to agree with itself in any uniform way, no matter what you were suggesting. The words you're using don't make me cringe, and I don't care if they make you cringe, and so on. I imagine over time people might move towards a common system, but only as a matter of practice and habit, not as an epistemological decision.

[joe552]

not as an epistemological decision.

Am I the only native English speaker who had to look up that word - epistemological? If language is primarily about communication, I think this time you've failed.

[isanbirder]

I always use partner, never boyfriend (he's been around too long for that). Who's to say which is the husband? and spouse is too legalistic.

[samsiam]

I used the same word in the title in a post recently and it was deleted for bad language.

So ??

[sbk]

I used the same word in the title in a post recently and it was deleted for bad language.

So ??

And its been edited, next time use the report button instead of complaining on the forum, thanks

OP, please do try to follow forum rules regarding the use of obscenities, I realize you were not using it to insult anyone specifically but in the future, keep it clean, thanks

[samsiam]

....

Edited April 26, 2012 by samsiam

[LeCharivari]

I used the same word in the title in a post recently and it was deleted for bad language.

So ??

And its been edited, next time use the report button instead of complaining on the forum, thanks

OP, please do try to follow forum rules regarding the use of obscenities, I realize you were not using it to insult anyone specifically but in the future, keep it clean, thanks

Sorry, sbk, I hadn't even thought of it being an obscenity in this context. It was meant in the context of "homie slang" ("d'is ma b***h ... meet ma h*", etc.) where, so I'm told, it just means wife or girlfriend and isn't perjorative.

[LeCharivari]

I always use partner, never boyfriend (he's been around too long for that). Who's to say which is the husband? and spouse is too legalistic.

My point exactly, IB ... and if or when you become Civil Partners you can just use Partner instead of partner (when the term "spouse" would become correct, since as you say that is very much a legal term).

What actually makes me cringe more than someone using other terms about their own partner is someone using them about someone else's partner - as you say, "Who's to say which is the husband?" and, even if it's not intended, the assumption for many is that where there's a "husband" there's usually a "wife".

My point wasn't so much about my personal "cringes" but that the term "partner" was already widely accepted and used not only by most gays, regardless of nationality, but also by most straights when referring to those in a gay relationship - even by those opposing gay marriage, etc. It's already part of the English vernacular (plain, ordinary everyday language) and part of English legalese, but the proposal in the Consultation Paper was the first time I had seen a proposal for it to replace husband and wife in official documents used by both gay and straight couples.

Edited April 26, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

not as an epistemological decision.

Am I the only native English speaker who had to look up that word - epistemological? If language is primarily about communication, I think this time you've failed.

No, joe552 (and I missed your posting here, BTW), I too. Epidemiologocal I knew, but epistemological confused me and was a new one:

(Philosophy) concerned with or arising from epistemology: the branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity. I'm still confused (but that's nothing new).

[joe552]

Thanks, I still don't know what it means. But I'm not losing sleep over it.

As to what word i would use to describe my "other half" - I'd go for partner also. Boyfriend sounds temporary, and as others have pointed out, husband/wife just doesn't work for me.

[Ijustwannateach]

not as an epistemological decision.

Am I the only native English speaker who had to look up that word - epistemological? If language is primarily about communication, I think this time you've failed.

It depends on who receives the communication.... but if reading is a source of knowledge, I think in this case you've succeeded....

[joe552]

sorry, I don't understand your point.maybe you can forget you're a teacher (an assumption on my part) and just say what you mean?

[isanbirder]

My pet hate in this context is gay people referring to each other as 'she'. If he was she, she wouldn't be one of us.

[sbk]

sorry but homie slang? Seriously? No, its always an obscenity, thanks. I can't think of any person that would want to be called that term, even in jest.

[Ijustwannateach]

In other words: I think that use and practice will eventually 'decide' what it is that gay partner is called in general by people who wish to speak of others in terms of their long term partnerships- just like 'Wife' was decided waaaaay back when with the early Germanic languages and 'wifman'.

So I don't think we'll get much mileage either with what one person thinks or likes or doesn't think or doesn't like, or by deciding what would be most 'appropriate' in terms of language (the epistemological approach- using appropriate knowledge/history/context to justify the choice of word). LCV cited both considerations in putting forward his favourite approach, but I still think it will just work out socially.

[joe552]

NOW I understand, ijustwannateach - thanks for that. I actually agree with you. I also dislike men referring to others (partners or not) as 'she'.

[LeCharivari]

In other words: I think that use and practice will eventually 'decide' what it is that gay partner is called in general by people who wish to speak of others in terms of their long term partnerships- just like 'Wife' was decided waaaaay back when with the early Germanic languages and 'wifman'.

So I don't think we'll get much mileage either with what one person thinks or likes or doesn't think or doesn't like, or by deciding what would be most 'appropriate' in terms of language (the epistemological approach- using appropriate knowledge/history/context to justify the choice of word). LCV cited both considerations in putting forward his favourite approach, but I still think it will just work out socially.

IJWT, You have both missed and misinterpreted what I said!

This is not MY"favourite approach". The term "partner" is ALREADY in widespread and common use: previously in the vernacular and legalese, in English speaking countries, and NOW in official documentation.

It is not a question of what would be "most 'appropriate' in terms of language" or what will "just work out socially" but of how long it will take for before this terminology is universally accepted, even by those resistant to change - even after several decades of common usage some people still cannot accept that "gay" means "homosexual", for example.

A recent thread* on an article in The Nation highlighted this:

Some of the news outlets failed to get the point, referring to Pick as the groom and Beer as the bride. "I wasn't a bride!" exclaims Beer. "We're gay partners!"

The coverage gaffe seemed to come with the territory.

*: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/533540-love-for-a-new-age/

[LeCharivari]

not as an epistemological decision.

Am I the only native English speaker who had to look up that word - epistemological? If language is primarily about communication, I think this time you've failed.

It depends on who receives the communication.... but if reading is a source of knowledge, I think in this case you've succeeded....

Well, I've certainly learnt something from that, but it wasn't about the meaning of "the epistemological approach", which I now know has nothing to do with what I was talking about or "using appropriate knowledge/history/context to justify the choice of word". That is nothing more than the connotative approach rather than the denotative.

Now, as the 1st Earl of Birkenhead said, you are possibly better informed but none the wiser.

[joe552]

Oh I give up - life's too short

[Ijustwannateach]

Joe, you said it.

LCV: not interested again.

[tombkk]

My pet hate in this context is gay people referring to each other as 'she'. If he was she, she wouldn't be one of us.

I agree with you. I have had many discussions about it.

[tombkk]

Well, I may be different (again). I have never liked the work partner - I have a partner in business. I use the word boyfriend when referring to my significant other, to make things clear.

I have recently used the word finance, as we are planning to tie the legal knot. I am not sure yet how I will refer to him then. Both husband and spouse sound a bit awkward. I'll think about that when the time comes.

[isanbirder]

Well, I may be different (again). I have never liked the work partner - I have a partner in business. I use the word boyfriend when referring to my significant other, to make things clear.

I have recently used the word finance, as we are planning to tie the legal knot. I am not sure yet how I will refer to him then. Both husband and spouse sound a bit awkward. I'll think about that when the time comes.

We all have our likes and dislikes about the words to be used about our significant other (and that's one I detest!), but in the end the evolution of language is going to choose for us.

When people started to look for an alternative to the word homosexual (ugly, and somehow too clinical), there was 'queer' but it soon gave way to 'gay'... which is now standard usage.

Civil unions, civil partnerships, and gay marriage (which ever you prefer) are all going to be subsumed in the word 'marriage'. I don't like it, but there's no way I can stop it. (Of course US will be later than the rest to do this because it has so many different forms of 'union')

Our partners (to use the word I prefer), the long-term ones, will be known as partners because there isn't really any other word for it. I don't really think significant other' or 'my other half' stand a chance. Most of the other words (boyfriend, lover, 'fen') will refer to temporary liaisons.

I'm not sure that we as individuals, or even as a gay community (if that could ever agree on anything), will have much influence. The inexorable progress of language will make the decisions for us.

Edited April 29, 2012 by isanbirder

[isanbirder]

Well, I may be different (again). I have never liked the work partner - I have a partner in business. I use the word boyfriend when referring to my significant other, to make things clear.

I have recently used the word finance, as we are planning to tie the legal knot. I am not sure yet how I will refer to him then. Both husband and spouse sound a bit awkward. I'll think about that when the time comes.

Oh, by the way, congratulations, Tom!

[tombkk]

Well, I may be different (again). I have never liked the work partner - I have a partner in business. I use the word boyfriend when referring to my significant other, to make things clear.

I have recently used the word finance, as we are planning to tie the legal knot. I am not sure yet how I will refer to him then. Both husband and spouse sound a bit awkward. I'll think about that when the time comes.

Oh, by the way, congratulations, Tom!

Thanks. Obviously, I meant to write "fiance", not "finance". But I guess you figured that.

[tombkk]

Well, I may be different (again). I have never liked the work partner - I have a partner in business. I use the word boyfriend when referring to my significant other, to make things clear.

I have recently used the word finance, as we are planning to tie the legal knot. I am not sure yet how I will refer to him then. Both husband and spouse sound a bit awkward. I'll think about that when the time comes.

We all have our likes and dislikes about the words to be used about our significant other (and that's one I detest!), but in the end the evolution of language is going to choose for us.

When people started to look for an alternative to the word homosexual (ugly, and somehow too clinical), there was 'queer' but it soon gave way to 'gay'... which is now standard usage.

Civil unions, civil partnerships, and gay marriage (which ever you prefer) are all going to be subsumed in the word 'marriage'. I don't like it, but there's no way I can stop it. (Of course US will be later than the rest to do this because it has so many different forms of 'union')

Our partners (to use the word I prefer), the long-term ones, will be known as partners because there isn't really any other word for it. I don't really think significant other' or 'my other half' stand a chance. Most of the other words (boyfriend, lover, 'fen') will refer to temporary liaisons.

I'm not sure that we as individuals, or even as a gay community (if that could ever agree on anything), will have much influence. The inexorable progress of language will make the decisions for us.

I see the world is changing. Let's watch which terminology will finally be used by everybody.

[LeCharivari]

Well, I may be different (again). I have never liked the work partner - I have a partner in business. I use the word boyfriend when referring to my significant other, to make things clear.

I have recently used the word finance, as we are planning to tie the legal knot. I am not sure yet how I will refer to him then. Both husband and spouse sound a bit awkward. I'll think about that when the time comes.

I see the world is changing. Let's watch which terminology will finally be used by everybody.

Well, we already know what terminology "will finally be used" in Germany as its been clear since 2004 under the Gesetz zur Überarbeitung des Lebenspartnerschaftsrecht, confirmed by your Constitutional Court in 2009 (Verfassungsgericht zu Homo-Ehe - Ehe, Partner, Kinder) and detailed in your current draft same-sex marriage legislation.

You may not like it, Tom, and you can of course "refer to him" as anything you want, but once you "tie the legal knot" regardless of whether you like it or not he WILL be your "Partner" (as you will be his).

[isanbirder]

Well, I may be different (again). I have never liked the work partner - I have a partner in business. I use the word boyfriend when referring to my significant other, to make things clear.

I have recently used the word finance, as we are planning to tie the legal knot. I am not sure yet how I will refer to him then. Both husband and spouse sound a bit awkward. I'll think about that when the time comes.

I see the world is changing. Let's watch which terminology will finally be used by everybody.

Well, we already know what terminology "will finally be used" in Germany as its been clear since 2004 under the Gesetz zur Überarbeitung des Lebenspartnerschaftsrecht, confirmed by your Constitutional Court in 2009 (Verfassungsgericht zu Homo-Ehe - Ehe, Partner, Kinder) and detailed in your current draft same-sex marriage legislation.

You may not like it, Tom, and you can of course "refer to him" as anything you want, but once you "tie the legal knot" regardless of whether you like it or not he WILL be your "Partner" (as you will be his).

Sorry to disagree with you, LeC, but we do not know what word will finally be used in Germany (or anywhere else). What goes into the law is not necessarily the word people actually use. For example, I don't suppose the word 'gay' occurs in any law; it will either be 'homosexual' or 'same-sex' (to include Lesbians). But we all use the word 'gay' without thinking twice.

Demotic language (colloquial, if you prefer) generally, like water, takes the easiest course; hence my conclusion that marriage and partner will be the words in common use.

[LeCharivari]

I think we're actually in broad agreement, IB, (particularly about "significant other"!), but its just a question of how long it will be before what strikes me as being common usage is accepted by others.

Its not so much that I think that "partner" is such a great term, although I think its use is inevitable, but that I find the use of the terms "husband" and "wife" totally unsuited to the vast majority of gay relationships - like it or not, and it doesn't matter whether any implication is intended or not as the result is the same, terms like these are generally unsuitable and should not be applied arbitrarily.