Un, Uk Condemn Israel'S Legalization Of 'Illegal' Outposts In The West Bank

[News_Editor]

UN, UK condemn Israel's legalization of 'illegal' outposts in the West Bank 2012-04-26 06:20:59 GMT+7 (ICT) NEW YORK (BNO NEWS) -- United Nations (UN) Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and British Foreign Secretary William Hague on Tuesday expressed concern after Israel's decision to formally approve three outposts in the West Bank, which they both described as 'illegal.'Ban, in a statement through his spokesman, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal under international law and that "it runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."The approved outposts by Israeli authorities are Bruchin and Rechelim in the northern part of the West Bank, and Sansana in the south.Ban said he was 'disappointed' and 'deeply troubled' by the decision as it comes amid renewed efforts to restart dialogue between Israel and Palestinians. Talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians stalled in September 2010 after Israel refused to extend its freeze on settlement activity in the occupied Palestinian territory. Dialogue has not resumed since.Hague also condemned Tuesday's decision. "The official sanction being given by Israel, designating outposts as settlements for the first time in over 20 years, sets a dangerous precedent for other outposts, which are illegal under both international and Israeli law," the foreign secretary said. "By seeking to entrench illegal settlements in the West Bank, as this decision does, the Israeli government risks sending the message that it is not serious about its stated commitment to the goal of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2012-04-26

[flying]

Nothing will come of it

[GentlemanJim]

Nothing will come of it

Well Israel have never listened to anything the UN have ever had to say, hence it ignores every UN resolution against it, and Israel see the UK (probably quite rightly) as having absolutely no significance on the world stage any more. I mean hell, Israel doesn't even listen to the USA anymore so what hope is there? As you say Flying...nothing will come of it!

[Colin Yai]

Would it make the slightest bit of difference to Hamas, Hezbollahs or Irans stance to how much land they ceded on the West Bank , they still want the whole of the present state of Israel to turn it into an Islamic state .

[Scott]

I can see that posters thus far are not even making a remedial attempt to discuss the topic of the OP. You can prepare for fallout of off-topic posts.

[Steely Dan]

Perhaps that is because they view the U.N as a partisan organization. If the world map was re-drawn with area based on U.N human rights council resolutions against each Country then Israel would cover over half the worlds land area. I would accept perhaps the U.N had a point if they even made an attempt at quid pro quo, but that is not the case as missiles and other hostile actions against Israel continue unabated and Palestinian unilateral bid for statehood was also against the Oslo roadmap but no resolution was forthcoming over that from memory.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Steely Dan

[flying]

My reply albeit short was directed squarely at the topic.

The topic here is that the UN & the UK have stated their feelings that these illegal outposts are....well illegal.

They have also stated.......many, many times the settlements are also illegal. ALL of them... Again in this very topic.

reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal under international law

It cannot be more clear than that.

From others the same has been said.....Again many,many times.

Even from their closest ally the USA. How many times have we heard President Obama say illegal settlements must stop?

How about Hillary Clinton? Or even the previous administration?

Now we have the UK & the UN saying it.........Again

What is the result?

Talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians stalled in September 2010 after Israel refused to extend its freeze on settlement activity in the occupied Palestinian territory.

That a single citizen of the USA would now post " Nothing will come of it" should not surprise nor be

considered to not be on topic. It is a very logical assumption.

The reason I did not post anything more was because what more is there to say?

Given historical precedence what more is there to say?

[GentlemanJim]

Nothing will come of it

Well Israel have never listened to anything the UN have ever had to say, hence it ignores every UN resolution against it, and Israel see the UK (probably quite rightly) as having absolutely no significance on the world stage any more. I mean hell, Israel doesn't even listen to the USA anymore so what hope is there? As you say Flying...nothing will come of it!

My reply was also squarely on topic. I don't understand what you want discussing Scott, so far every post is aimed in support of or countering the UN/UK statement. That's how things are debated.

[folium]

Would it make the slightest bit of difference to Hamas, Hezbollahs or Irans stance to how much land they ceded on the West Bank , they still want the whole of the present state of Israel to turn it into an Islamic state .

The simple reason that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are deemed illegal is because Israel has been occupying the West Bank in defiance of international law since its military occupation seizure by the IDF in 1967. The West Bank has never legally been part of the state of Israel, being originally part of Jordan and then ceded to the Palestinians along with Gaza (originally Egyptian territory) to create a Palestinian state.

Actions such as this hardly aid in achieving the only longterm practical solution to this hideously complicated and influential conflict, namely a 2 state solution. This will require compromises by all but that is always the requirement of any sustainable settlement.

[coma]

Nothing will come of it

Well Israel have never listened to anything the UN have ever had to say, hence it ignores every UN resolution against it, and Israel see the UK (probably quite rightly) as having absolutely no significance on the world stage any more. I mean hell, Israel doesn't even listen to the USA anymore so what hope is there? As you say Flying...nothing will come of it!

I like your post however in is not 100% correct . They did listen one time way back when the UN general assembly recommended partitioning Palestine on 29 November 1947. Taking Arab land and giving it to Jews escaping from Europe after WW2. And they haven't listened since. It is no wonder the entire Arab and Muslim world feels nothing but disdain for Israel. And rightly so in my opinion.

[Steely Dan]

The way I read it is that after winning a war of survival in 1967 Israel gained territories which would have been earmarked for Palestinians had they accepted the U.N partition plan in 1948, (though they were not called Palestinians at this time). So Israel's 'military occupation' was a direct result of attempts by her enemies to take all the land she had. The UN then called for land to be given back in exchange for undertakings by Israel's opponents to cease armed aggression against her. To this day this reciprocal side of the bargain has never been honoured.

It is of little wonder that Israel has concluded the Palestinians have never negotiated in good faith and that the U.N has never been balanced in it's treatment of Israel, therefore the 'legalization' of these settlements is merely reflecting this reality.

[Zatoichi]

Nothing will come of it

Well Israel have never listened to anything the UN have ever had to say, hence it ignores every UN resolution against it, and Israel see the UK (probably quite rightly) as having absolutely no significance on the world stage any more. I mean hell, Israel doesn't even listen to the USA anymore so what hope is there? As you say Flying...nothing will come of it!

The only way it would ever make a difference is if the US "Condemned" isreal were it hurt..., in the pocketbook. If the US just cut off the 8Billion or so a year they give isreal , they would pull those settlements back quicker than you could say kibbutz. But for that to happen politicians in the US would have to man up to the fearsome lobbies like AIPAC and put their careers and their kickbacks on the line. Chances of that happening, IMHO, nil.

So yeah we will "condemn" isreal over settlements but it's got about as much teeth as chicken.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Zatoichi

[folium]

The way I read it is that after winning a war of survival in 1967 Israel gained territories which would have been earmarked for Palestinians had they accepted the U.N partition plan in 1948, (though they were not called Palestinians at this time). So Israel's 'military occupation' was a direct result of attempts by her enemies to take all the land she had. The UN then called for land to be given back in exchange for undertakings by Israel's opponents to cease armed aggression against her. To this day this reciprocal side of the bargain has never been honoured.

It is of little wonder that Israel has concluded the Palestinians have never negotiated in good faith and that the U.N has never been balanced in it's treatment of Israel, therefore the 'legalization' of these settlements is merely reflecting this reality.

You must be reading history books of the Thai variety (ie a little skimpy on the detail).

The 6 Day War of 1967 was initiated by Israel and saw her seize the Golan Heights from Syria, the West Bank from Jordan, and Gaza plus the entire Sinai from Egypt (ie a tad more than was ever earmarked for a Palestinian state).

unless you are a Palestinian-denier most people regard the term Palestinian as having emerged in the early 20th century and was certainly valid in terms of the British Mandate for Palestine (1920-48), when the whole population (irrespective of religion or ethnicity was referred to as Palestinian, thus making the Jews of Palestine Palestinian several decades before they became Israelis!)

The whole history of the area since 1920 has been a catalogue of missed opportunities and woeful short-sightedness. None of the key players (the Palestinians, UK, USA, Israel, and her Arab neighbours) come out of the whole mess looking very clever. The solution remains the same as it has always been, namely 2 separate states of Israel and Palestine. Maybe one day the mist will part and the circle will be completed. In the meantime anything that makes such a settlement harder to achieve is unhelpful at best.

[Ulysses G.]

The way I read it is that after winning a war of survival in 1967 Israel gained territories which would have been earmarked for Palestinians had they accepted the U.N partition plan in 1948, (though they were not called Palestinians at this time). So Israel's 'military occupation' was a direct result of attempts by her enemies to take all the land she had. The UN then called for land to be given back in exchange for undertakings by Israel's opponents to cease armed aggression against her. To this day this reciprocal side of the bargain has never been honoured.

It is of little wonder that Israel has concluded the Palestinians have never negotiated in good faith and that the U.N has never been balanced in it's treatment of Israel, therefore the 'legalization' of these settlements is merely reflecting this reality.

This is correct and the factual history of "Palestine" - which was never a country - and how the Arabs surrounded Israel and threatened them for weeks before the 67 war was "initiated" has been posted here many times, but I will be happy to post it again if Scott allows me to.

The truth is that the Palesinian Arabs have repeatedly refused to sign a peace treaty and the land will not be theirs until they do.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

Thanks for asking UG. You can post the link, however, posters should be aware that it is for information purposes. The topic of the thread is in the OP, so please try to not stray too far off topic.

[Ulysses G.]

This explains why these outposts are not "illegal".

[geriatrickid]

Nothing will come of it

Well Israel have never listened to anything the UN have ever had to say, hence it ignores every UN resolution against it, and Israel see the UK (probably quite rightly) as having absolutely no significance on the world stage any more. I mean hell, Israel doesn't even listen to the USA anymore so what hope is there? As you say Flying...nothing will come of it!

Perhaps they are taking lessons from Mr. Assad as he has not paid heed to the UN either.

[geriatrickid]

I would like to know more about these "settlements". Are they real settlements or are they part of the strategic pressure applied to encourage the arabs to come back to the negotiating table? There is always an ulterior motive in these matters and it would be interesting to know the exact reasons for the Israeli decision.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

And now a 2nd one. I clearly stated to stick to the topic of the OP, not the posted link.

[GentlemanJim]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

And now a 2nd one. I clearly stated to stick to the topic of the OP, not the posted link.

Well perhaps as the posted link ( which is just the normal badly made propaganda tripe) was always going to take everyone off topic it should not have been allowed! How can a video made by the Israeli Minister for Foreign Affairs be used as any sensible, credible unbiased account of the actual occurrences surrounding the 6 day war? How is that man going to give a balanced view as to why the settlements are illegal or not? Why is the link allowed if we cannot comment on it?

Edited April 26, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[Morch]

I would like to know more about these "settlements". Are they real settlements or are they part of the strategic pressure applied to encourage the arabs to come back to the negotiating table? There is always an ulterior motive in these matters and it would be interesting to know the exact reasons for the Israeli decision.

They are real enough nowadays, each supporting 50-100 families, and founded about 10 years ago.

I don't think there's a single Israeli settlement in the West Bank that was put up as means to promote negotiations with the Palestinians. Usually, it's quite the opposite. The basic political motivation (not getting into the religious aspect now) is making sure future conditions are favorable to settlers/right-wing parties interests. Those do not include handing back anything, or as little as possible if there's no choice.

As usual, this has very little to do with defying the USA or the UN, but more with Israel's internal politics, Recent supreme court decisions made the right-wing government back off on three separate cases to do with legalizing settlements, actually forcing the government to dismantle them. The hawkish coalition partners didn't like that one bit, and the PM needed to show he's getting some results for his side.

The "legalization" comes down to treating two of those as settlements, rather than neighborhoods of older/larger settlements (and of course, more government funding this way, more positions to give away etc), the third one was in the works for a while now, so nothing new.

Still remains to be seen what will come out of it. As far as I can understand, the actual status change is not effective immediately, so might be some legal and procedural hurdles ahead. Israel just celebrated its Independence Day so this announcement was timed accordingly to maximize home front effect. The way I see it it's a PR attempt, and maybe not well thought out one, at that.

Just to make it clear - those settlements been around for a while, so we're not talking about new settlements or even expansion of existing settlements.

[Morch]

This explains why these outposts are not "illegal".

I have to say that I don't quite get it.

Alright, lets say "disputed" rather than "occupied". Great.

Is it legal (by international law) to have a massive settlement plan in such areas? I guess one could find learned legal interpretations supporting both points of view.

Even if it is technically legal, what exactly do those settlements promote? Yes, ok....the Palestinians aren't playing nice, sure. But how does building settlements help change that?

Let go of the notion that ANY Israeli government had a clear policy regarding this issue, or an idea how to deal with it other the spewing ad-hoc solutions and reiterating chewed up lines,

[Scott]

Gentlemen Jim: You can comment on posted links, however, the posted links shouldn't become the main topic of the thread. Comments about the link should still reflect the situation presented in the original post.

[Ulysses G.]

Well perhaps as the posted link ( which is just the normal badly made propaganda tripe)

Anyone who looks at it knows that it is not "badly made" and anyone who has studied the situation knows that it is historically accurate and far from "tripe".

[Ulysses G.]

Even if it is technically legal, what exactly do those settlements promote? Yes, ok....the Palestinians aren't playing nice, sure. But how does building settlements help change that?

I do not pretend to know what the Israelis reasons are, but it seems possible to me that they are trying to convey that they only have so much patience and if the Palestinian Arabs are not willing to make peace, they might end up with nothing. They have been offered very good terms and always refuse to sign a peace treaty.

If Scott allows me, here is another video by the same narrator that goes into the terms that the Arabs have been offered - and turned down - as well as more history on the conflict.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[flying]

With the recent protests in Israel demanding more housing I can see this will not end well.

300,000 were in the streets back in August 2011. That is equal to 12 million Americans turning out in the US when compared by population.

But at the same time they are also asking for "more attention for the Palestinian question."

So it is interesting. We will see where it all goes.

There is only so much land.

Historic protest in Israel: over 300,000 demand social justice

[Colin Yai]

With the recent protests in Israel demanding more housing I can see this will not end well.

300,000 were in the streets back in August 2011. That is equal to 12 million Americans turning out in the US when compared by population.

But at the same time they are also asking for "more attention for the Palestinian question."

So it is interesting. We will see where it all goes.

There is only so much land.

Historic protest in Israel: over 300,000 demand social justice

Yeah Flying there is only so much land the problem here is Hamas to not want to share it ,they want it all , the message is quite plain in the Hamas Charter or Covenant , there is no doubt in my mind that Fattah on the West bank under Abu Mazan or (Mahmoud Abbas) Could reach a compromise with Israel, he is constant dialog with Netanyahu on this very subject ,for this Hamas label him a traitor!, I see Mazan ( who I admire) as a man of vision who realizes what has happened in the past has been a failure and its way overdue to sit round the table and discuss it rationally , unfortunately and indeed sadly Hamas simply refuses to aknowledge Israels right to exist. Edited April 27, 2012 by Colin Yai

[flying]

Yeah Flying there is only so much land the problem here is Hamas to not want to share it ,they want it all ,

You know I am no expert but when I see things like this map I do not think it is all one sided nor do I think Hamas wants it all.

I know folks like to go round & round on this subject but it will always be a which came first the chicken or the egg scenario.

If BOTH sides cannot sort it out then a third party needs to step in or at least support of again BOTH sides needs to be dropped.

Here is the map I mentioned.....

[Colin Yai]

Yeah Flying there is only so much land the problem here is Hamas to not want to share it ,they want it all ,

You know I am no expert but when I see things like this map I do not think it is all one sided nor do I think Hamas wants it all.

I know folks like to go round & round on this subject but it will always be a which came first the chicken or the egg scenario.

If BOTH sides cannot sort it out then a third party needs to step in or at least support of again BOTH sides needs to be dropped.

Here is the map I mentioned.....

I would suggest you do not take my word for it, just Google up the Hamas charter or Covenant. Edited April 27, 2012 by Colin Yai

[flying]

I would suggest you do not take my word for it, just Google up the Hamas charter or Covenant.

Really I don't care............Both sides need to work it out...period

Zealots from BOTH sides will not help anything

Seems over the years I read more & more about the actual people of BOTH sides wanting peace.

It is the zealots of both sides that are in control that cause the problems.