How To Reference 3Rd Genders/Ladyboys In Thai Language

[squarethecircle]

Have a friend (no, really) who recently got involved with a ladyboy. The question is, do Thais in this situation refer to a ladyboy companion as a boyfriend (fan poo chai), girlfriend (fan sow), or other (fan katoey, apologies for the awful transliteration)? Seems like referring to "it" as a "fan sow" might be easiest - seeing as how the Thais refer to gay couples being married as a straight couple with a man and a woman. This is a funny place at times.

[isanbirder]

I would have thought just 'fen' (or 'fan')... but shouldn't this be in the Thai forum?

[sbk]

Yes I agree

moved to Thai Language forum

[rgs2001uk]

I would have thought just 'fen' (or 'fan')... but shouldn't this be in the Thai forum?

Agreed.

แฟน (faen) is how the word is spelt and can imply either boyfriend or girlfriend.

I have never heard a girlfriend referred to as a faensow or boyfriend as as faenchai, in my experience Thai is an implied language, so if a you are male and are asked if you have a faen it is implied to mean do you have a girlfriend, likewise for a girl if she is aked if she has a faen it is implied to mean a boyfriend.

เพื่อน peuan could also be used to mean a friend.

[tombkk]

I would have thought just 'fen' (or 'fan')... but shouldn't this be in the Thai forum?

Agreed.

แฟน (faen) is how the word is spelt and can imply either boyfriend or girlfriend.

I have never heard a girlfriend referred to as a faensow or boyfriend as as faenchai, in my experience Thai is an implied language, so if a you are male and are asked if you have a faen it is implied to mean do you have a girlfriend, likewise for a girl if she is aked if she has a faen it is implied to mean a boyfriend.

เพื่อน peuan could also be used to mean a friend.

I agree about แฟน being gender-neutral. Being male myself, I refer to my boyfriend as แฟน. Thai people being smart ask what is the name of your แฟน? Answer: เอ. They are no wiser and drop the matter.

I have never heard the words faensow or faenchai either. But I disagree about Thai being an implied language, the term แฟน is simply not implying any gender, and that's it.

[LeCharivari]

แฟน (faen) is how the word is spelt and can imply either boyfriend or girlfriend.

I have never heard a girlfriend referred to as a faensow or boyfriend as as faenchai, in my experience Thai is an implied language, so if a you are male and are asked if you have a faen it is implied to mean do you have a girlfriend, likewise for a girl if she is aked if she has a faen it is implied to mean a boyfriend. ...

Agreed, rgs, that has been my experience but I have heard (and have used) faen-puu-chai to refer to my boyfriend/partner when asked if have a faen.

The only times I have heard faen-sow or faen-chai used are amongst or to children.

[LeCharivari]

.... the Thais refer to gay couples being married as a straight couple with a man and a woman.

I'm not sure why (or even how) Thais would do that. The idea of "gay couples being married" is very much a new one in Thailand and there are as yet no legal/formal Thai gay marriages. Gays, unless they are evidently ladyboys/kathoey/กะเทย (to varying degrees), are simply bpen-gay.

[LeCharivari]

.... But I disagree about Thai being an implied language, the term แฟน is simply not implying any gender, and that's it.

Yes and no, Tom. While it may not be "implied" it is usually assumed and if you care not to notice or to correct that assumption that is your choice.

Edit: I should add that I prefer not to inflict my personal sexual history or my sexual preferences on others when it is of no importance so I usually simply say "no" or "not yet" when asked in passing because although I have a legal relationship with my Thai partner it is not yet recognised in Thailand. If/when it becomes recognised legally then I will respond accordingly with the appropriate term.

I should also add that the "assumption" depends on the environment, so if you are in a predominantly or exclusively gay environment the assumption would be that your แฟน is also male and gay - a question of connotation rather than denotation.

Edited April 29, 2012 by LeCharivari

[Richard W]

.... the Thais refer to gay couples being married as a straight couple with a man and a woman.

I'm not sure why (or even how) Thais would do that. The idea of "gay couples being married" is very much a new one in Thailand and there are as yet no legal/formal Thai gay marriages.

The existence of a legally valid marriage has very little to do with the Thai concept of husband and wife.

[tombkk]

.... But I disagree about Thai being an implied language, the term แฟน is simply not implying any gender, and that's it.

Yes and no, Tom. While it may not be "implied" it is usually assumed and if you care not to notice or to correct that assumption that is your choice.

Edit: I should add that I prefer not to inflict my personal sexual history or my sexual preferences on others when it is of no importance so I usually simply say "no" or "not yet" when asked in passing because although I have a legal relationship with my Thai partner it is not yet recognised in Thailand. If/when it becomes recognised legally then I will respond accordingly with the appropriate term.

I should also add that the "assumption" depends on the environment, so if you are in a predominantly or exclusively gay environment the assumption would be that your แฟน is also male and gay - a question of connotation rather than denotation.

When I saw your first sentence I was about to contradict you, but in the last sentence you correct this: It depends on the context, not only the language per se.

And, as I mentioned above, I play with this as you do, so if a straight environment assumes my แฟน is female, it's their assumption. I never said that. And yes, if people ask me whether I have a Thai wife, I answer than I am not married. So, this is all about what we don't say.

[LeCharivari]

.... the Thais refer to gay couples being married as a straight couple with a man and a woman.

I'm not sure why (or even how) Thais would do that. The idea of "gay couples being married" is very much a new one in Thailand and there are as yet no legal/formal Thai gay marriages.

The existence of a legally valid marriage has very little to do with the Thai concept of husband and wife.

That made me realise something I have never noticed before.

I have been asked countless times if I have a faen (it usually comes soon after asking how long I have lived here), but I can't recall ever being asked if I was married or had any children, which is what I would have been asked in the West.

[LarryBird]

It seems all the responses kind of miss the whole point of the topic.. What is a ladyboy referred to as, she or he? what is a tomboy referred to as, he or she?

[rgs2001uk]

It seems all the responses kind of miss the whole point of the topic.. What is a ladyboy referred to as, she or he? what is a tomboy referred to as, he or she?

Can only comment on what I hear myself, a ladyboy is referred to as a ladyboy, a tom as as tom a dee as a dee and gay as gay.

Havent yet been able to work out what the next door neighbour would be referred to, a straight man who dresses like a tom and has a girlfriend.

[deesquared]

It seems all the responses kind of miss the whole point of the topic.. What is a ladyboy referred to as, she or he? what is a tomboy referred to as, he or she?

Can only comment on what I hear myself, a ladyboy is referred to as a ladyboy, a tom as as tom a dee as a dee and gay as gay.

Havent yet been able to work out what the next door neighbour would be referred to, a straight man who dresses like a tom and has a girlfriend.

What is a "dee?"

[mca]

It seems all the responses kind of miss the whole point of the topic.. What is a ladyboy referred to as, she or he? what is a tomboy referred to as, he or she?

Can only comment on what I hear myself, a ladyboy is referred to as a ladyboy, a tom as as tom a dee as a dee and gay as gay.

Havent yet been able to work out what the next door neighbour would be referred to, a straight man who dresses like a tom and has a girlfriend.

What is a "dee?"

The feminine acting partner in a lesbian relationship

Edited May 6, 2012 by mca

[Wittywitty]

"fan" is a neutral word for romantic partners that can be male or female.

"sow" means female so "fan sow" is female romantic partner, i.e. girlfriend.

"sow pra ped song" refers to ladyboys. "pra ped" means "type". "song" means "two". "Sow pra pred song" literally means "girl type 2", lol.

I don't think a ladyboy partner is called "boyfriend".

[LarryBird]

so, are they referred to as men or women?

[katana]

As far as I understand it they think of themselves as women and use the polite female particle KA.