Automatic Visa Entitlement For Thai Wife Of Eu National?

[XFT]

Hi, first post,

maybe this has been covered before, the below is from the official website of the European Union.

Am I misunderstanding it or does it state that immigration cannot refuse a visa to a non-EU spouse of an EU national:

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey. However, should they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by any means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

If your non-EU family members are having difficulties in getting a visa, you can contact our assistant services.

Be aware that some countries may fail to apply EU law correctly. This means that you may be denied your rights, as described here. To avoid problems, contact the consulate or embassy of the country to which you are travelling well in advance to find out which documents your non-EU family member will need.

If you have problems, you can always contact our assistant serveices.

Entry refusal

In very exceptional cases, an EU country can refuse entry to you or your family members for public policy, public security or public health reasons.

If you are refused entry, the authorities must prove that you or your family members pose a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat. The decision must be given to you or to them in writing. It must state all the grounds, and specify how to appeal and by when.

From the same page:

Sample story

A marriage certificate with an EU citizen is enough to get your visa.

Thomas is Irish and lives in Serbia with his wife Delia, a Serbian national. When Thomas and Delia wanted to visit Thomas' mother, now living in Spain, they applied for an entry visa for Delia. She presented their marriage certificate with her visa application, but the Spanish authorities also asked for proof of hotel accommodation in Spain and sickness insurance before they would issue the visa.

However, when Delia pointed out that no such additional documents were required under EU law, the Spanish authorities apologised for their mistake and immediately issued her entry visa.

[PattayaParent]

Only for Shengen Visa counties.

It doesn't work for UK for example.

[XFT]

The section refers to EU countries, not Schengen countries.

And they are different things altogether, despite the large overlap.

As I'm sure you are aware.

[hansnl]

Sent this post and reactions to the the Netherlands Parliamentary commission handling foreign policy.

Hope to hear soon.

Most certainly will send the reaction.

I do know that the Dutch immigration police has refused entry to Thai wives.

Also a few that had a valid visa.

Edited April 29, 2012 by hansnl

[beano2274]

The airline could turn them away at check in before even getting on the plane.

[Basil B]

Interesting...

Could you please quote the source.

[7by7]

The quote in the OP is essentially correct. Except it applies to the entire European Economic Area; not just the EU.

BUT

It only applies when the EEA national and their non-EEA national family are traveling together to, or the non-EEA national is traveling to join the EEA national in, an EEA state other than the one of which the EEA national is a national. As in the example, an Irish man and his Serbian wife traveling to Spain.

If a non-EEA national is traveling to their EEA national's home state then they need to apply using the relevant states immigration rules, and if they turned up at a port of entry to that state without any required visa then they would be refused entry. So, in the example, had they been traveling to the RoI then the Serbian wife would have needed an Irish visa and been refused entry to the RoI if she didn't have one.

Unless they had been living in another EEA state with their EEA national family member who had been exercising an economic treaty right to work there and they were now returning to their EEA national family member's home state.

If using the EEA regulations then strictly speaking a visa or entry permit is not required; but as these are easy and quick to obtain, and free, then to avoid undue delay at immigration on arrival I would recommend getting one. As does the advice from the EU quoted in the OP

Different EEA states have different procedures for this. I'll use the UK as an example, see EEA family permits.

Edited April 29, 2012 by 7by7
Addendum

[SantiSuk]

"...as they are easy and quick to obtain ...". Thus spoke a Bangkok resident I would guess!

If you are getting a German Schengen visa then:

1. Don't accept an afternoon appointment (they only offer these if you are in a reasonable hurry I think) - the postal office in the visa section closes after the morning session and you can only return one week or so later to collect, with only two one hour windows per week). They had not warned me and that cost me a 3,000 baht domestic flight because I was not prepared to risk collecting it on the day of my flight and I would have had to stay in Bangkok for 4 days to collect it the previous collection time! [in fairness you can nominate someone in Bangkok to collect for you, and on reflection maybe I should have called a visa agent to do it]

2. Don't expect any passport photograph you have previously used elsewhare to be acceptable. I had photos that had previously been accepted by the UK, Thailand and France in my bag (two different versions altogether). No deal - we want a frame-filling face please. They do however have a photographer at the Visa section (in the morning only?!), so it's only an irritation and another 200 baht!

Don't get me started if you are doing something more complicated like taking an adopted daughter (unofficial adoption of a girl within the distant reaches of my Thai family). It took me three visits to that bloody embassy to get a visa for my wife and adopted daughter - that's three 550 kilo trips by car or plane from SiSaket. They say on the application forms 'other documents may be required' but they offer no clues and do not offer a phone number that would allow for a discussion. OK - my mistake - I should have used the appointments number to insist in discussing their requirements for a non-standard case, instead of taking every possible document I could think of under the sun. [The missing document that added one more trip was a school certificate! No - we could not send it in later by post].

I got the impression from the Thai-German counter clerk that sending us away to the outer reaches of Thailand to come back again was a big result for her.

Avoid Germany if you can. France is far more .... French (laid back)! Mind you in fairness the immigration officials at Koln-Bonn airport were very pleasant and stamped us straight in (same in the UK) when I had expected to be given a grilling and family records inspection, based on comments elsewhere on TV.

Edited April 30, 2012 by SantiSuk

[beano2274]

Did your other half have to pay for the visa, as I am sure that if married to an EU National the visa fee is waived, but you must have your marriage certificate translated and certified.

Edited April 30, 2012 by 7by7
Unnecessary full quote of preceding post deleted.

[7by7]

The procedure should be easy and quick and free for non EEA immediate family members of an EEA national.

But, with respect SantiSuk, an 'unofficial adoption of a girl within the distant reaches of my Thai family' does not make the girl your immediate family member under any EU nor Thai law.

[XFT]

Interesting...

Could you please quote the source.

It is from the Europa dot EU website under citizens > travel > documents you need.

Does anyone know where I can find the actual statutes that relate to this If there are any? Or does it originate from article 8 of the human rights act?

7by7 is probably correct, but I'm not sure that an EU coutry is acting legally when they make it 'difficult' for their own nationals to bring non-EU spouses into their own country, whereas from what I gather foreign EU nationals would not have to meet any immigration requirements whatsoever if bringing the same spouse into the same country - that is to say, they can literally walk in and rightfully demand entry. Perhaps more appropriate to use the phrase "it is only applied" rather than "it only applies" in post #7 ?

[SantiSuk]

The procedure should be easy and quick and free for non EEA immediate family members of an EEA national.

But, with respect SantiSuk, an 'unofficial adoption of a girl within the distant reaches of my Thai family' does not make the girl your immediate family member under any EU nor Thai law.

Yep I realise that 7by7. Just pointing out that if you live outside Bangkok you still need to make sure you get a morning appointment and get the photo right, even for a wife of an EEA national. Otherwise I agree that a visa for a direct family member is straightforward.

And no, for the avoidance of doubt Beano, I did not have to pay for a Visa for my Thai wife

Edited May 1, 2012 by SantiSuk

[VisasPlus]

The right to free movement is given in EC Directive 38/2004. However, the UK has this week been criticised by the European Commission for not complying with the Directive, and has been told to sort it out within two months. The Commission said :

Free movement: Commission asks the UK to uphold EU citizens' rights

Brussels, 26 April 2012 – The European Commission has given the United Kingdom two months to comply with European Union rules on the free movement of EU citizens and their families across the EU or face an EU court case. The Commission's request takes the form of a reasoned opinion (the second step in the three-step EU infringement process). The Free Movement Directive (2004/38/EC) aims to ensure that EU citizens can fully enjoy their rights to freely travel, live and work anywhere in the European Union. The Commission may refer countries that are not fulfilling their obligations to the Court of Justice of the EU.

The Free Movement Directive should have been fully transposed by EU Member States in their national rules by April 2006. Following bilateral discussions with EU Member States, the Commission successfully resolved more than 90% of outstanding issues in national implementation, but certain obstacles remain (IP/11/981).

The Commission therefore launched infringement proceedings against Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Germany, Italy, Malta, Lithuania, Spain, Sweden, Poland and the United Kingdom during the period from March to October 2011.

The reasoned opinion against the United Kingdom follows two reasoned opinions against the Czech Republic and Lithuania, launched in January 2012 (IP/12/75).

As one of the EU's larger Member States, the UK is home to around 2 million citizens from other EU countries. It is therefore important that UK laws respect their rights. While the UK authorities have recently committed to amending their rules to ensure full compliance with EU law on free movement in a number of important areas, four issues remain unresolved, namely:

· The Free Movement Directive guarantees that

non-EU family members of EU citizens who hold a valid residence card issued by one EU country can travel together with EU citizens

within the European Union without an entry visa. The UK laws do not grant this important right which lies at the heart of free movement.

· The United Kingdom does not allow

extended family members of EU citizens to apply to have their residence in the UK

considered under EU law when they were lawfully residing in the UK before the arrival to the UK of the EU citizen on whom they are dependent.

· Under the Free Movement Directive,

EU citizens who settle in another EU country but do not work there may be required to have sufficient resources and sickness insurance

. The United Kingdom, however, does not consider entitlement to treatment by the UK public healthcare scheme (NHS) as sufficient. This breaches EU law.

· Finally, the United Kingdom

does not issue workers from Romania and Bulgaria during the first 12 months with the same residence documents as workers from other EU Member States

. While EU law allows the United Kingdom to temporarily keep in place a work-permit scheme for workers from Bulgaria and Romania, those who have a work permit have the same right to reside as other EU workers and must be issued the corresponding residence documents.

The Commission is continuing to closely monitor how all the other EU Member States are delivering on their commitments to amend their national rules in order to comply with the Commission's concerns.

[paully]

^ Well, we'll see what results. As you will note from this list:

The Commission therefore launched infringement proceedings against Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Germany, Italy, Malta, Lithuania, Spain, Sweden, Poland and the United Kingdom during the period from March to October 2011.

much of the EU is supposedly in breach of the directive, not just the UK alone.

Also, it's not quite as clear-cut as implied, the relevant part of the directive is here:

"(8)

With a view to facilitating the free movement of family

members who are not nationals of a Member State,

those who have already obtained a residence card should

be exempted from the requirement to obtain an entry

visa within the meaning of Council Regulation (EC) No

539/2001 of 15 March 2001"

The key is: has "already obtained a residence card". Not just turn up at the border with an EU national and be waved through without a visa.

Edited May 1, 2012 by paully

[SantiSuk]

It would in theory be a big advantage to me if the UK were forced to make it easier for direct family members. When I apply to the Uk I have to spend hours downloading, photocopying and arranging my many financial accounts with banks and brokers as I have widely distriburted financial resources.

I had thought that in the Schengen area it is not necessary to prove financial means for a direct family member - and I'm pretty sure I did not have to do this when I got a Scehngen visa from France previously*. But when I applied to Germany 3 weeks ago I was told by the Thai-German battle axe on the counter to produce the financial documents to prove I had resources for my wife. When I questioned this (I was expecting it for my adopted (informally) daughter, so I had the papers anyway) I was told very stiffly 'you need them foht ber your wife - even a German needs to provide financial documents to prove resources for their Thai wife'. I loved the 'even a German' phrase - like we other Europeans are second class citizens? This was another reason why you should noit assume that a Schengen visa is going to be easy. I would advise anyone going for it, even in the simplest of circumstances, to double check requirements in detail by phoning the embassy. Use any number you can get your hands on to call a real perosn. Both Germany and the Uk are very obtuse in providing help lines though once you do get through they are helpful. Never re;ly on waht they write on their website; they always put we may ask for other documents but give you no clues as to what these might be. The Uk for instance always asks for my wife's housebook - even though tere is no stated requirement for it.

I suspect therefore that the UK is not the only European nation that varies from the strict requirements of the EU

*[The visa basic requirements state that financial resources must be proved but my reading of the Schengen Visa application small print is that this is not required for direct family members of an EEA citizen (along with proof of accomodation and insurance)]

[Bastian]

Relevant to the thread is probably Reg 11(4)(. So the UK has already complied in that they adapted the relevant laws, if you still get refused at the border it is probably due to some immigration officers not knowing the law.

Sure, one could get an EEA family permit to avoid complications at the border, but in order to apply for one, one has to answer so many (15 page form) very intrusive questions. This is a nuissance and one may not feel comfortable with answering.

While airlines would probably refuse to transport the family member without visa or EEA family permit, as mentioned by beano2274, one could allways go by train or ferry and just allow for some more time at the border, while the officers are busy reading up on regulations. Imo much better than filling out that monstrous EEA family permit application.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Bastian

[7by7]

In an ideal world there would be no need of visas and entry permits; unfortunately this is not an ideal world.

You may feel that the questions asked on the 'monstrous' form are 'very intrusive' and a 'nuissance...one may not feel comfortable with answering' but they are designed to ascertain that the person seeking entry does indeed qualify under the regulations.

Turning up at a UK port of entry without a permit would almost certainly mean immigration asking the same questions! As regulation 11(4)(b ) says

the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is—

(b)a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him in the United Kingdom

Note that it says 'with a right to accompany....or join." That one is a family member of an EEA national does not automatically give one the right to live in another EEA state with said EEA national. The EEA national has to be exercising an economic treaty right in that state.

The questions you object to are designed, in part, to ascertain if this is the case.

Personally, I'd rather get it all sorted out in advance, but if you'd rather spend several hours waiting while your partner is questioned by UK immigration and rushing around to obtain any documents they may require, then that is your choice.

As for traveling from Thailand to the UK by train simply to avoid filling in a form; Crazy!

Even if you did do this, it is likely that at your first entry point to the Schengen area immigration there would want to see visa of some sort and as the UK is not a Schengen state then you would need to show a visa or entry permit to UK immigration when crossing from Europe, whether by ferry or through the tunnel.

Not to mention visas for all the other countries you passed through on the way.

At the end of the day it is your choice to live and work in the UK, and if you do not like filling in a simple form to allow your partner to live here with you, then go elsewhere. British nationals have to fill in much longer forms, provide much more documentary evidence and, unlike you who gets it all for free, pay exorbitant fees to have our non-EEA partners live in the UK with us