Mental Notes

[DrBooze]

I was wondering how much people use mental noting in their meditation. I always read about it but I find it a distraction. I find it easier just to let go of distracting thoughts and go back to the breathing.

I find it hard to note what I am thinking about with out getting distracted. I wonder if I'm using the right words... and if I'm putting enough detail. Should a note "thinking" or "thinking about X" or "thinking about an argument I had with X" and so on. It seems complicated.

Is mental noting something you should take seriously? Do you gain more from letting your thoughts go? Or do you learn something by observing what your thoughts actually are?

[chownah]

I'm a beginner Buddhist but I'll give you some ideas and I hope they are not wrong.

First, there are two main reasons for meditating in Buddhist thought. One is for concentration and one is for insight.

The purpose of meditating for concentration is that it takes a concentrated mind to be able to develop insight....so it is usually described that you learn to meditate for concentration first. How much concentration meditation is necessary is a debateable point...there are different points of view on this. Some people say that you have to go through at least four stages before you can do insight meditation properly and some say that you really only need a little bit if you catch on quickly and can get the mind concentrated quickly. Anapanasatti is concentration meditation where you use your breath as the object of meditation...there are other types of concentration meditation but using the breath as the object of mediation is by far the most common.......anyway......now I'm getting to a topic that I feel that I can not speak authoritatively on but I'll tell you what my ideas are on it. As far as I can tell when you are doing concentration mediation and trying to concentrate on your breath and a thought arises (and they will) then the best thing to do is just mentally say to yourself "thinking thoughts" or something like that....you should not do things like ask yourself why you are thinking the thought or examine the thought for its truth or in any way get involved in the thought. You should not fight or struggle against the thought but after having noted that there is "thinking thoughts" then the thought will (in my experience at least) usually fall away and the focus goes back to the breathing. An important point here (I think) is that you should not think "I am thinking thoughts" because one of the truths you are trying to discover is that the thoughts in your head exist there independently from any ego or "I" that you might think is doing the thinking. That is to say, in Buddhist thought the seeing, hearing, feeling,tasting, smelling, and thinking that happens is not a part of anything that can abe identified as a "self"....these things happen and we make the false assumption that there is some "self" or "I" or "ego" inside of us that does these things. Back to the meditating....Maybe you hear a car go by at which time you should note "hearing sound" or something like that...but again don't try to analyze the sound or get involved in it, don't fight against it and you will stop hearing it.....either the car goes away or you stop listening and your focus goes back to the breathing. The same goes for seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling bodily sensations, and thinking thoughts. The idea is that this will train you to be able to reduce the number of 'interuptions' so that your concentration will be stronger.

So, after you can concentrate good enough then you can start on insight meditation which I won't say much about because I'm not really there yet....but from what I've read the idea of insight meditation is to observe the arising of the sensations of the eye, ear, tongue, nose, body, and mind and then their falling away so that you can begin to see how they are all linked and what causes them to arise in the first place....and this will ultimately lead to the realization that.....I'll stop here and I hope that someone who knows more than me will come along and fill in the rest and correct any mistakes I might have made.

Edited December 27, 2005 by chownah

[sabaijai]

I was wondering how much people use mental noting in their meditation.  I always read about it but I find it a distraction.  I find it easier just to let go of distracting thoughts and go back to the breathing.

I find it hard to note what I am thinking about with out getting distracted.  I wonder if I'm using the right words...  and if I'm putting enough detail.  Should a note "thinking" or "thinking about X" or "thinking about an argument I had with X" and so on.  It seems complicated.

Is mental noting something you should take seriously?  Do you gain more from letting your thoughts go?  Or do you learn something by observing what your thoughts actually are?

If you search the Buddhism branch of this forum for the words "satipatthana" you'll find lots of discussion on the 'noting' method, which has many permutations/layers, so to speak.

Here are a couple links to threads you may find informative & provocative:

Meditation

Dzogchen

Interview with Nina van Gorkom

Are you working with a teacher? I think it's pretty difficult, at least in the beginning, to practise satipatthana (mindfulness) meditation without an accomplished teacher.

[Abandon]

Mahasi Sayadaw (the originater of the modern 'noting' school said often that you should only not with 5% of the mind. If you can see and know it, it is already noted. Mentally verbalising the note is only when you are beginning and trying to concentrate.

However I would advise that if your concentration is strong enough, to give up the noting alltogether and just maintain mindfulness.

Mindfulness is sati sampajanya - calling to mind awareness, something that Westerners would probably call the feeling of consciousness. Of course, at this point of the meditation we are past the wordy descriptions and in the naked state. This is the highest form of concentration becasue it does not depend on an object on which to focus, it is naked awareness. It can be refined until no thoughts or other sense objects arise. Pure subjectivity if you like. Make sure there is the feeling that you are located within the boundaries of the physical body. Any object arising, and perturbance (sankhara) that comes into this pure mind is clearly seen as polluting the purity, and as Dukkha.

I shall stop here for now

[sleepyjohn]

I was wondering how much people use mental noting in their meditation.  I always read about it but I find it a distraction.  I find it easier just to let go of distracting thoughts and go back to the breathing.

I find it hard to note what I am thinking about with out getting distracted.  I wonder if I'm using the right words...  and if I'm putting enough detail.  Should a note "thinking" or "thinking about X" or "thinking about an argument I had with X" and so on.  It seems complicated.

Is mental noting something you should take seriously?  Do you gain more from letting your thoughts go?  Or do you learn something by observing what your thoughts actually are?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I may make a suggestion, find a good teacher.

Although it can be handy, do not worry too much about this noting business.

It is a great idea to get a good grounding, say a number of years in anupanassati and metta bhavana. If you do one sit a day you might alternate days. Do not worry these are not insight meditation proper. It is impossible to sit for months on a cushion without insight happening like it or not. Do not SEEK for insight.

After this grounding I found it great to learn the skandhas until they were second nature. Than work my way through the sections of the Satipatthana Sutra, and what's more to add to it. To see myself more and more as a process rather than an entity.

Be prepared for setbacks and scares, it can be a rocky road, and there's no way back.

Refine your mental states, become more and more sensitive and look for finer and finer degrees of discontent and let them go.

Sooner or later you may well experience the dyanas. It's as if someone turned off the interference. You can not mistake them. But do not glow in the feelings that accompany them too much. These are just another sort of temporary phenomenon. Instead subtly allow equanimity to happen. Also do not necessarily believe any insights you may have in these states...they can be wrong.

When insight or enlightenment happens in various degrees you still have to turn that from a transient phenomenon into true liberation. And so do I.

Good Luck.

[sabaijai]

and there's no way back

As a Burmese sayadaw told me, during an interview where I expressed this same notion: "Once dharma has its hooks into you, it'll drag you kicking and screaming down the path until you give up and achieve right view."

[sleepyjohn]

Mahasi Sayadaw (the originater of the modern 'noting' school said often that you should only note with 5% of the mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this is good stuff and reinforces my thoughts that if one wants to develop one's meditation, one should start to have some awareness of the "balance" of various mental factors one will aim for. One should "allocate mindfulness" to various things and try not to drift. Be the driver, not the passenger.

What's more, and I think extremely important, is the degree of concentration.

I have thought for some time that that it is most efficacious to be in something like the same degree of concentration in meditation as one spends most of one's time in. I'll amend that and say be usefully concentrated but not overfocussed. This might sound as if one is not really doing anything but this is not so, because meditation is the systematic development of positive mental states, and this isn't necessarily dependent on "deep" meditation.

I was taught many years ago that one should be ready to catch a ball at any time.

I felt slightly out on a limb with my opinions by the way until I found in a little handbook by Buddhadasa one sentence in the whole book in capital letters:

"DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE"

If one is extremely deeply focussed in meditation but lives a moderately "normal" life the rest of the time it's rather as if it's two different people. Why should one develop in one state and live in the other, the development then doesn't apply?

Rather one might consider starting as I've advised then working one's way up until one is in a more refined state ALL of the time. Difficult and slow....but that's the idea.

But then what do I know?

Edited January 1, 2006 by sleepyjohn

[Abandon]

Insight vs Concentration ... there is a topic for another thread.

But of course the Buddha himself never presented the two as opposing, as a 'vs' but said they should both be developed.

[DrBooze]

Thanks very much for all the replies - they were very interesting and insightful!

Unfortunately, I don't have a teacher so most of the time I'm just finding my way in the dark. I read a lot of books, etc. But, while they are useful, its hard to pick out the important bits.

I read a book once about a monk who practiced meditation for years and then realised he'd been doing it wrong. That must be an absolute nightmare. And, as SleepyJohn points out, it's easy to get things wrong.

I've only been trying to do Buddhist meditation for about 6mths. So I try and take it slow and keep my mind open. I try to be sensitive to the experiences of meditation without being attatched to them.

As I understood it - insight is non-intellectual. It is a purer level of knowledge which is only tainted by intellectual thought processes. This does not mean we should not think about what we're doing - but to do so while practicing meditation would be a hinderance.

This is where the problem comes in with mental noting - if you can concentrate on your breath and let go of intefering thoughts, then is it really necessary to make mental notes? It seems to be adding another level of concious thought that, in the end, you're just going to have to break down to reach insight.

But it occured to me that mental noting might be an end in itself! For example, when we make mental notes we are contemplating the nature of our thoughts - how they arise etc - which is part of insight learning. And, as Chownah pointed out, it can reinforce the idea that thoughts arise without any concept of self.

From reading the posts, I get the impression that it is simply a tool which can help with concentration. Ultimately, the goal of mental noting is concentration. (If you can focus on your breath without mental noting - then you don't necessarily need to do it). If performed, mental noting should be kept simple.

Being a beginner I'm still concerned with concentration meditation. I think this is something that will lead on to insight - once the person is ready. Like Abandon, I think concentration and insight can complement each other. But, both are also dependent on our actions. Our kamma will effect our abilty to achieve real insight.

Once dharma has its hooks into you, it'll drag you kicking and screaming down the path until you give up and achieve right view."

This is true. I know you shouldn't accept anything blindly - but dharma is somehow magnetic. I've gained a lot so far - even if I have been finding my way in the dark. I'm being dragged somewhere - I just hope its in the direction of the right view. I'll try and find a teacher if I ever get to to the insight stage. But, even if you don't have a teacher - it must be better to practice meditation than do nothing at all.

Maybe I'm absolutely wrong about that!

Thanks again!

Edited January 3, 2006 by DrBooze

[chownah]

..............

Being a beginner I'm still concerned with concentration meditation.  I think this is something that will lead on to insight - once the person is ready.  Like Abandon, I think concentration and insight can complement each other.  But, both are also dependent on our actions.  Our kamma will effect our abilty to achieve real insight.

.................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that the idea that concentration meditation will lead automatically into insight is wrong. Again, I'm no expert but it seems that everything I read talks about these being two different types of meditation. I have read that in one sitting you can start with concentration meditation and when concentration is established then you can change to insight meditation. I think that the insight meditation uses different objects to meditate on depending on what type of insight is being sought.

Perhaps you know about this already but for the concentration meditation using the breath as the object you could read about anapanasati which is the name for this type of meditation. For insight meditation you could read about satipatthana. There's probably alot of other stuff possible for concentration and insight....I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable will come along and fill us both in.....also, the internet has got tons of stuff on Buddhist thought and meditation.

Edit: I went out looking of a link for you and to my suprise I found this link:

http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/instruct...structions.html

which talks about satipatthana meditation and it describes the technique of noting and explains alot about it.....I think you should read this one since I think it directly addresses your questions on noting.

Edited January 3, 2006 by chownah

[camerata]

Several books I've read recommend keeping the mental noting very short. i.e. just one word and only 2-3 general categories of thoughts to note. So a typical note might just be "Phantasizing!"

I think this is good training for insight meditation because noting the distraction immediately after becoming aware of it will train the mind to become aware more quickly the next time, and it reenforces the idea that you are observing the thought. Ideally, in the end you will just observe and never get carried away.

[sabaijai]

But it occured to me that mental noting might be an end in itself! For example, when we make mental notes we are contemplating the nature of our thoughts - how they arise etc - which is part of insight learning.

That's the objective of mindfulness. There are several stages to the noting technique that an experienced teacher can help take you through, in fact in the Mahasi system a teacher is considered necessary. Over the course of a mindfulness retreat, you receive progessive sets of instructions based on interviews with the teacher.

For example once you reach a point where you're able to note actions (stepping, lifting, whatever) relatively easily, the next step is to note the intent behind the actions. This is a point where many meditators experience breakthroughs into nama/rupa. My impression is that it's is difficult to know for yourself when you're ready for that step.

There are other methods for 'vipassana' aside from the Mahasi one, e.g., U Ba Khin, Dhammadaro, etc. They all have their strong points, and I would think a lot depends on the individual, i.e., some are more suitable for some individuals than for others.

If you live in a country where mindfulness retreats are available, you might think about trying a short one of three to five days, and if it goes well, then a 10-day retreat, and so on.

[DrBooze]

Thanks for that link Chownah... Things are starting to make a bit more sense now. Mental noting need not be limited to meditiation. The kind of vocabulary used for mental noting would be broader in day-to-day activities than in meditation. During meditation, mental noting should be kept very simple especially at the beginning. To note "thinking, thinking" is often enough at this stage - without going into details about what that thought is (imagining, worrying etc).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that the idea that concentration meditation will lead automatically into insight is wrong.

You're probably right there. I just meant that, as a beginner, I still have a lot to benefit and learn from concentration meditation. I'm not going to get ahead of myself. But, from reading that link it seems that they are not totally exclusive techniques. Mental noting can be used both to improve concentration and enhance insight.

As such, mental noting can and should be practiced by beginners. But it shouldn't become a distraction. Therefore, care should be taken to decide which elements should be noted and which things should be left out. This decision would depend upon an individuals skill and experience at meditation.

I can see why a teacher would be useful with this.

I found this list of acknowledgement words by Phra Peter Pannapadipo-

seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, feeling, percieving, knowing, itching, aching, painful, throbbing, hurting, happy, bored, sad, content, angry, irritated, desiring, wanting, dreaming, doubting, thinking, imagining, remembering, planning, wishing, sleepy, drowsy, worrying, annoyed, frustrated, impatient, comfortable, uncomfortable, moving, raising, lowering, stretching, reaching, pushing, pulling, opening, closing, holding, grasping, twisting, scratching, rubbing, bending, placing, standing, sitting, unfolding, folding, hot, cold, warm, sweating, shivering, moving, focussing, turning, fidgeting

He says, it is important to be familiar with the acknowledgement words you are likely to use before starting meditation. Therefore, you will not be distracted by searching for a suitable word when sensations arise.

[chownah]

........................

I found this list of acknowledgement words by Phra Peter Pannapadipo-

seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, feeling, percieving, knowing, itching, aching, painful, throbbing, hurting, happy, bored, sad, content, angry, irritated, desiring, wanting, dreaming, doubting, thinking, imagining, remembering, planning, wishing, sleepy, drowsy, worrying, annoyed, frustrated, impatient, comfortable, uncomfortable, moving, raising, lowering, stretching, reaching, pushing, pulling, opening, closing, holding, grasping, twisting, scratching, rubbing, bending, placing, standing, sitting, unfolding, folding, hot, cold, warm, sweating, shivering, moving, focussing, turning, fidgeting

He says, it is important to be familiar with the acknowledgement words you are likely to use before starting meditation. Therefore, you will not be distracted by searching for a suitable word when sensations arise.

I think that as you advance your noting will become simpler...but I'm not sure. I'm basing this on my own personal interpretation of how, in the scriptures, different people who were very far along the path would comment, "This too exists" when certain phenomena presented themselves.....to me this is sort of like noting but it is sort of a very short note that does not even require identifying the type of object being noted.....this is just a theory on my part.