In Thailand, Killings Of Lesbians Go Unpunished

[Scott]

One nasty post has been removed. This is the gay forum. Gay bashing is not tolerated.

[TPI]

I'd say, that most murders in Thailand aren't properly investigated in comparison to western countries in scientific terms ...

Based on what special knowledge ... or is this more home-spun wisdom?

People in the much vaunted "west" are arrested and convicted improperly on a massive scale, implying that the true criminals go Scot free (many of them eluding western police and immigrations to go on holiday in Thailand where Thai police are expected to arrest them for deportation).

We tend to think about miscarriages of justice as rare and exceptional occurrences. Prominent cases such as the Birmingham six, Guildford Four, Bridgewater four, M25 three, Cardiff three, Stephen Downing, and so on create the impression that miscarriages of justice are seen as very much an intermittent, high profile and small scale problem; that there are very few victims in the context of the statistics of all criminal convictions. But there are many more cases than those which receive prominent coverage in the media. Those cases of criminal conviction that are routinely quashed by the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division), or by the Crown Court for convictions previously obtained in the magistrates' court have received no attention at all.

"If we pay more attention to these routinely quashed convictions, we find a scale of miscarriage of justice to fundamentally challenges any notion that the current system of criminal justice is weighted too much in favour of the defendant. The Lord Chancellor's Department's statistics on successful appeals against criminal conviction show that in the decade 1989-1999 the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division) abated over 8,470 criminal convictions - a yearly average of 770. In addition, there are around 3,500 quashed criminal convictions a year at the Crown Court for convictions obtained at the magistrates' courts. Contrary to popular perceptions, then, wrongful criminal convictions are a normal, everyday feature of the criminal justice system - the system doesn't just sometimes get it wrong, it gets it wrong everyday, of every week, of every month of every year. With the result that thousands of innocent people experience a whole variety of harmful consequences that wrongful criminal convictions engender".

While I can agree that Magistrates often get it wrong you will find it's not an investigation problem! The problem, generally, is that Magistrates don't understand the rules of evidence and therefore will allow evidence to be presented to their Court that in a higher Court would be rejected!

The "Golden Rule" is...when faced with a court appearance in a Western country go for the highest court you can afford! The Judges understand the rules of evidence better!

This has nothing to do with the general incompetence of the BIB where how much money you spend is the level of how much interest "they" take in any investigation! Unless the perpetrator is known via CCTV or through witnesses there is almost no investigation beyond the first 48 hours...if you're lucky! Of course informers are a legion here and usually the only evidence presented to the Court is the statement of the informer and the "verbal" by the BIB. In 13 years here the only people to plead not guilty seem to be the people who appear to have fore knowledge of the result!

Make of that what you will.

[kiniyow]

Lesbians or Toms are People too...They have jobs and seem to bother no one..

What if this were to happen to Katoys? Wait--They are men dressed as women and this is a Man's country.....

[dighambara]

I'd say, that most murders in Thailand aren't properly investigated in comparison to western countries in scientific terms, and that this has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the victims. The title makes it sound like only murders of lesbians go unpunished which is certainly not the case!

i can see how it's tough for some men to accept that their ex-gfs have gone to the other side.

it doesn't help when one sees their ex-gf with her new tom gf.

it would make me feel less manly, but enough to murder?

probably not, but to fight?

maybe if the tom was bigger than me...what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love for your now lesbian ex-gf, right???

wonder if the same phenomenon occurs to women when their ex-bfs goes on to date a lady boy? sounds like a good storyline for a thai music video.

I agree with the first quote - according to Wikipedia, Thailand has nearly double the gun homicides of the USA, with 1/6th the population.

As for feeling less manly - that puzzles me. Relationships come and go for many reasons, most of which have nothing to do with 'manliness'...

I have relatives in such relationships, and I would be greatly angered if they were hurt. It seems to me that Thais don't understand the seriousness of their actions - attacking the defenseless, or killing them. It would seem that 'an eye for an eye' is not understood...

[Whidbeyboy]

Of course, that's England. Sherlock Holmes moved to Hollywood and everything went to hell.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Whidbeyboy

[Ijustwannateach]

Welcome to our unusual influx of straight-members-who-aren't-familiar-with-the-gay-subforum. I'm sure that the word 'Lesbian' and silly straight male fantasies never attracted you to this thread as opposed to all those other threads that never attract you here, except for the kathoey threads- but you may wish to take a quick peek at the posting guidelines thread because, to be refreshingly direct, we don't put up with any homophobic shit in here. Thanks and back to your regularly scheduled thread.

P.S. Actually, most of you are doing pretty well so far. Smooches.

[poanoi]

Welcome to our unusual influx of straight-members-who-aren't-familiar-with-the-gay-subforum. I'm sure that the word 'Lesbian' and silly straight male fantasies never attracted you to this thread

As a matter of fact i am fascinated by lesbians, and want to study the phenomena intimately

[endure]

Welcome to our unusual influx of straight-members-who-aren't-familiar-with-the-gay-subforum. I'm sure that the word 'Lesbian' and silly straight male fantasies never attracted you to this thread

As a matter of fact i am fascinated by lesbians, and want to study the phenomena intimately

Why would you be fascinated by someone who is not sexually interested in you? If you studied the phenomenon 'intimately' that would surely amount to rape? The clue is in the word 'LESBIANS'. Just because you fancy shagging them doesn't mean they're interested in you.

[poanoi]

I'm still interested

[RogueLeader]

Welcome to our unusual influx of straight-members-who-aren't-familiar-with-the-gay-subforum. I'm sure that the word 'Lesbian' and silly straight male fantasies never attracted you to this thread as opposed to all those other threads that never attract you here, except for the kathoey threads- but you may wish to take a quick peek at the posting guidelines thread because, to be refreshingly direct, we don't put up with any homophobic shit in here. Thanks and back to your regularly scheduled thread.

P.S. Actually, most of you are doing pretty well so far. Smooches.

I clicked the link straight away because I knew it'd be a hoot. Most of the posters here are fairly well-informed or politely enquiring but there are a few posts that give the sensation of watching a dog trying to understand a card trick.

[submaniac]

I have the strangest feeling of deja vu commenting on this thread, almost as though the same news had been posted in the gay forum not long ago and there was still a thread even on the top page about it....

I even have the feeling that I made this very remark not long ago on this thread... Anyway...

Funny, I have same sense of deja vu..and no, I don't take it personally that when submaniac posts about it there are 8 replies but when webfact posts it, he gets 39 responses...nope...my ego is intact...

[louse1953]

Tom’ is a specifically Thai gender identity where lesbian women dress, act and speak in a masculine fashion

Surely "Tom" is just a common Thai abbreviation of the term "Tomboy" used widely to describe females that act or dress in a masculine manner. In my experience just because a Thai girl is labelled a "Tom" doesn't indicate that she's actually a practicing lesbian.

My wife's niece is a classic Tomboy, boys clothes, boys hairdo etc even to the extent of having feminine "girl friends". They're not actually indulging in a lesbian relationship, they are just teenagers having a bit of fun. Thais seem generally to be very accepting of this and similar deviations from the accepted "norm".

While I have the greatest sympathies with the victims and their families, I feel this article is just sensationalist BS starting with the OTT headline. In my experience the Thai BiB have a reluctance to investigate anything properly without financial motivation and don't limit their incompetence exclusively to lesbian murder cases as this article suggests....

55555,they're not actually lesbians yet How would you know,watch this space.I've been here a long time and seeing is believing.

[Ferangled]

Tom’ is a specifically Thai gender identity where lesbian women dress, act and speak in a masculine fashion

Surely "Tom" is just a common Thai abbreviation of the term "Tomboy" used widely to describe females that act or dress in a masculine manner. In my experience just because a Thai girl is labelled a "Tom" doesn't indicate that she's actually a practicing lesbian.

My wife's niece is a classic Tomboy, boys clothes, boys hairdo etc even to the extent of having feminine "girl friends". They're not actually indulging in a lesbian relationship, they are just teenagers having a bit of fun. Thais seem generally to be very accepting of this and similar deviations from the accepted "norm".

While I have the greatest sympathies with the victims and their families, I feel this article is just sensationalist BS starting with the OTT headline. In my experience the Thai BiB have a reluctance to investigate anything properly without financial motivation and don't limit their incompetence exclusively to lesbian murder cases as this article suggests....

55555,they're not actually lesbians yet How would you know,watch this space.I've been here a long time and seeing is believing.

errr.... quite, thanks for your constructive innuendo.

If she does indeed become a lesbian as she gets older then great, whatever floats her boat... as long as she's happy I'm quite sure her family and friends wouldn't be especially surprised or critical about it; that was the point of the post... In my experience Thais are generally very accepting of behavior different from the accepted "norm".

I know that many Thai's use the word Tom to describe lesbians in general, that's not to say that's correct use of the word, you may have noticed Thais often use many other western phrases incorrectly.... Let's face it Tom isn't a Thai name and boy isn't a Thai word, it's an adopted Western phrase often used incorrectly.

Another poster picked up on the fact that actually in the case of a lesbian couple where there's a masculine partner and a feminine partner, Tom is used to describe the partner fulfilling the "male" role and Dee is used to describe the more feminine partner... that indicates to me that Tom is actually referring simply to a masculine female not specifically their sexual preferences... let's face it how would you know unless you were their partner anyway?!

I'd also caution members that believe simply putting any question to their Thai partner makes them an authority on anything; I have over 10 Thai staff here at work, and I've just put the same question to each of them and had a whole range of totally different responses!

I think the real issue here is that this sensationalist BS article is suggesting that there is some sort of widespread anti-lesbian agenda in Thailand when clearly that's not the case, there's a just a fairly useless police force and a whole pile of unsolved crimes, of which only a tiny percentage actually have lesbian victims.

Incidentally do you realize that you've called yourself louse not Louise? Seems quite fitting given the way you latched onto my post like some sort of parasite!

[jshorts]

i can see how it's tough for some men to accept that their ex-gfs have gone to the other side.

it doesn't help when one sees their ex-gf with her new tom gf.

it would make me feel less manly, but enough to murder?

probably not, but to fight?

maybe if the tom was bigger than me...what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love for your now lesbian ex-gf, right???

wonder if the same phenomenon occurs to women when their ex-bfs goes on to date a lady boy? sounds like a good storyline for a thai music video.

Why would it make you feel "less manly"?

[Om85]

Dude, If your chick wanna go wid other guy or wid a Tom , waats the difference? Just let da chick go in peace and get another one no need for tears, depression or any other shitty feelin' like that

[animatic]

LGBT

What does that stand for.

Lesbian

Gay

Bi

Tomboy...Well, did see the previous post with Trans-Sexual just after posting this...makes more sense indeed, but where does that leave the Tomboy?

Hey thanks Schuimpge & Skippero.

In it's current lingusitic usage it is : LGBT = Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transexual

Tom and Dee fall under the Lesbian category.

In the west they might be Butch and Lipstick Lesbians.

Just as Gay has many sub-genere descriptives,

Bears and Twinks being two of them.

And there are several levels of Transexuals

from simply changing clothes, to taking hormones, to implants,

to full removal of former identifiers.

Of course each group has localized traditions that vary

from place to place and individual to individual.

My various jobs over the decades have allowed me to cross many cultures and sub-societies, and to have learned to except most anyone who doesn't treat me badly.

Edited May 2, 2012 by animatic

[brewsterbudgen]

Strangely enough the dees I know get quite upset if anyone refers to them as lesbians - they are not attracted to other girls, they like toms (not "same same").

[LeCharivari]

..... I don't take it personally that when submaniac posts about it there are 8 replies but when webfact posts it, he gets 39 responses...nope...my ego is intact...

I doubt if it has anything to do with the poster, SM, rather the title of the thread - yours referred to "Anti-Gay Violence/Killings", which only got a total of 325 views, while the mention of "Lesbians" has obviously aroused rather more interest (nearly 9,000 views).

Maybe, given that most of the posts now concern what Thais mean by "Tom", this thread should be moved to the Thai language Forum, like that on Ladyboys, and discussion of the article could be made in the original thread?

[blacksuitdandruff]

i can see how it's tough for some men to accept that their ex-gfs have gone to the other side.

it doesn't help when one sees their ex-gf with her new tom gf.

it would make me feel less manly, but enough to murder?

probably not, but to fight?

maybe if the tom was bigger than me...what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love for your now lesbian ex-gf, right???

wonder if the same phenomenon occurs to women when their ex-bfs goes on to date a lady boy? sounds like a good storyline for a thai music video.

Why would it make you feel "less manly"?

it would make me feel less manly based on the following assumptions

i was assuming the following:

1) the ex-gf dumped me

2) then turn gay

3) then shacked up with a tom

4) i saw her in public with the tom

5) i questioned whether or not i turned her gay

6) the thought grew in my head leading me to question my manhood

7) regardless of validity and evidence, i convinced myself that i was the one that turned my ex-gf gay.

of course all these these events would have to happen in this order for me to feel less manly.

[chiangmaicharlies]

LGBT stands for lesbian-gay-bi-trans

[pxlgirl]

1) the ex-gf dumped me

Not fun for anyone. Heartbreaks ain't fun

2) then turn gay

You can't "turn" gay, either you are or you are not. The only difference is, some need longer to accept/admit it to themselves than ohteresö

3) then shacked up with a tom / i saw her in public with the tom

Wouldn't be fun if you she sacked up with another dude and you saw them in public either

5) i questioned whether or not i turned her gay

See #2

6) the thought grew in my head leading me to question my manhood

Then you must have some confidence problems apart from all this?

7) regardless of validity and evidence, i convinced myself that i was the one that turned my ex-gf gay.

No such luck buddy, it's not all about you

My advice: Grow some balls, try find a gal that matches, accept that you can't have everything in life. A lesbian will never be interested in you, just like you will never go down on a guy anytime soon, right?

[Thaimaishoe]

i can see how it's tough for some men to accept that their ex-gfs have gone to the other side.

it doesn't help when one sees their ex-gf with her new tom gf.

it would make me feel less manly, but enough to murder?

probably not, but to fight?

maybe if the tom was bigger than me...what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love for your now lesbian ex-gf, right???

wonder if the same phenomenon occurs to women when their ex-bfs goes on to date a lady boy? sounds like a good storyline for a thai music video.

If she wants someone else. Let her go and find someone else. Not worth fighting over. That wouldn't help anyone except maybe yourself.

Can not see how fighting over someone that does not want to be with you any more is good for anyone, just forget her,, many more out there and one that would be better to be with for sure..

i like how you two believe i would fight the tom.

no, that's not what i was saying nor implying.

Um actually yes it was. Both by the rules of English, and simple logic. You were talking about was it enough to prompt you to fight, then you go on to discuss attributes of the Tom that would increase your motivation. Also, there are only two people available to fight, the ex or the Tom. Fighting the Ex does not accomplish the task of restoring your lost (indeed, never possessed) manly-hood, nor does it demonstrate your undying love for her. The only person your sentence CAN refer to is the Tom.

As for the topic in general, I got here because this story is in the daily thaivisa e-mail, and I really don't give a crap about this thread - I thought it was a more generalized topic of elevated crime against Lesbians, not a UN report of elevated violence. But if I am going to waste my time reading, I am going to waste both your time and mine correcting your English.

[chops]

women have sex drives? news to me..

[pxlgirl]

women have sex drives? news to me..

You can learn something new everyday, dude!

[poanoi]

my ex had, my current don't

[pxlgirl]

Back to topic though, I don't think this is news, there are hate crimes against minorities all over the world. Some are not investigated, some unpublished or both.

[submaniac]

Back on topic? It's more fun to be off topic. You know that scientific theory that people are born gay or lesbian? Well it's a crock. How girls go lesbian is by being with me and deciding that there's just got to be something better.