Growth Cycle Of Pla Nin

[ozzydom]

PP, on rereading your post,I would guess that you pond is perrenial so I would not recommend snakeheads , they are just so hard to catch ,you would end up with to many.

During the wet they come out of the pond to breed in any shallow puddle nearby then the young return to the pond as well so it doesnt take long to be overrun with them.

I would only suggest snakeheads in a pond that is pumped annually and they can be hand caught and removed.

[Jotham79]

I had a farang neighbor who claimed he put 1000 young tilapia in a small pond and pumped it out a year or so later and there was 1 very large snakehead. His claim was that it had eaten all of the tilapia and then ate all of the other snakeheads. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I do know snakeheads will eat there own.

I am only speaking of my experience and I have a fun pond (almost exactly the same size as Patongphils) that has who knows what all different species and it hasn't been drained in atleast 7 years maybe 10. I know there were snakehead in it when we filled it from an irrigation ditch and have seen them every time I have fished it. It is a very productive pond and we take a crap load of fish out of there every year. Having said that, my BIL lives on the farm and is very skilled at removing snakehead from their natural habitat and even gives us a big one once in a while. PM me and I can tell you how to get them out if they become a problem.

Also, there is a little tiny fish similar to a guppy the Thais call Pla Kasill that go 1-2 inches and another they call Pla Kow that go about 3 inches and if you get these going the snakeheads will take them above other fish.

[ray23]

I had a farang neighbor who claimed he put 1000 young tilapia in a small pond and pumped it out a year or so later and there was 1 very large snakehead. His claim was that it had eaten all of the tilapia and then ate all of the other snakeheads. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I do know snakeheads will eat there own.

I am only speaking of my experience and I have a fun pond (almost exactly the same size as Patongphils) that has who knows what all different species and it hasn't been drained in atleast 7 years maybe 10. I know there were snakehead in it when we filled it from an irrigation ditch and have seen them every time I have fished it. It is a very productive pond and we take a crap load of fish out of there every year. Having said that, my BIL lives on the farm and is very skilled at removing snakehead from their natural habitat and even gives us a big one once in a while. PM me and I can tell you how to get them out if they become a problem.

Also, there is a little tiny fish similar to a guppy the Thais call Pla Kasill that go 1-2 inches and another they call Pla Kow that go about 3 inches and if you get these going the snakeheads will take them above other fish.

I lost my first batch of Talapia, from another fish eating them all, as I recall 1500. Apparently there is a fish that lays dormant in the rice field until the rain starts. Our first pond wa not fenced and it was very close to the same level of the field. When we pumped it out, we had five very happy fish of some sort. Not sure what it was.

This time we are over a meter higher then the rice field block wall around the property. Both times I overstocked intentionally a I didn't know how many fish I would lose. This last time I raised the fry in netted cages till the were about two inches long. Lost one fish, so way over stocked for my pond. I willl be moving 400 to a smaller pond we used for Cat Fish. Things get critical, still have two ponds belonging to the family I can move others to.

Dom you saw my pond and sit up think I can get away with 1500 in the big pond, with 0-2 pumped in 7/24 ?

Edited June 3, 2012 by ray23

[finnomick1]

OD, thanks for the idea of the floating net system, this will solve the problem. I don't understand the ' hapa hapas ' bit though. The misses doesn't either - maybe you can enlighten us ?I could put drain pipes in but I'd get yakyak from the family because they would empty out into their ( and our ) sugarcane fields which suffer badly when under water for any length of time. Our pond levels can rise and fall up to 3 metres. They look scary when the level is very low and it looks like the fish have only just enough water to survive. Come to think of it, they also look scary when they are brimming and ready to overflow. One of our ponds is for our monsters and I'd hate to lose any of them. Biggest in the pond is a mekong catfish about a metre long, some almost as big pla duk, a couple of huge carp, a couple of gold colour fish - don't know the species of these two. They're not koi carp and they're not pla taptim. We got them from our pond a few kms from here when we pumped it to see what could be in it. The local helpers wanted to eat them, surprise surprise, so I told them to naff off and took them home sharpish. ultimately, I suppose that is the biggest problem digging ponds amongst rice fields, there's nowhere for the water to go. I've bought a load of the blue netting so I can erect a fence around the ponds so if they do overflow, maybe, just maybe they'll keep the fish in -- and the field and river fish out.

[ozzydom]

fm1,Hapa is the name of the actual net (all sizes).

The klong here has to rise 4 metres (which it does on occasions )to effect our ponds so we have bamboo stakes at 2 metre spacing right around the perimeter of the property ,we have blue netting (1 metre wide ,split in half and hemmed to make a 0.50 metre strips which we can attach with cable ties when big floods threaten.The highest flood we have seen in the last 8 years went 6 inches above the walls.Neighbours turned out in force about midnight and the netting went up in about 2 hours.

They reckoned it was to late to go back to bed so a carton of Lao Khao later they all chuffed off on their regular chores and jobs.

[ozzydom]

Ray,The maximum recommended stocking is about 3 fish per square metre so on that basis you are way overstocked, but with an ounce of luck you may get away with it.

We stock at 2000 fish per rai (1600 sq met) but will go up to 3000 next season to satisfy our market growth.

Now that dull days are here oxygen depletion and nitrate blooms are your biggest worry, your air supply will help and changing your afternoon feed time to about 3pm will also help, OD (oxygen depletion) happens after sun set and seems to effect fish with full tummy more.

Trouble with these problems is they happen without visible warning,you just wake up to a pond full of dead fish.

Checking your fish just after daylight will give an indication of how your oxygen is holding up, if the fish are on the surface ,sucking air, then you have a potential problem.

[finnomick1]

fm1,Hapa is the name of the actual net (all sizes).

The klong here has to rise 4 metres (which it does on occasions )to effect our ponds so we have bamboo stakes at 2 metre spacing right around the perimeter of the property ,we have blue netting (1 metre wide ,split in half and hemmed to make a 0.50 metre strips which we can attach with cable ties when big floods threaten.The highest flood we have seen in the last 8 years went 6 inches above the walls.Neighbours turned out in force about midnight and the netting went up in about 2 hours.

They reckoned it was to late to go back to bed so a carton of Lao Khao later they all chuffed off on their regular chores and jobs.

Thanks for that OD, full of useful information as always. The local government fishery in Buriram has some amazingly huge ( orange ) nets that they have over their stock ponds. But as usual when you ask a simple question such as, where do you get them from, they don't know !

Regarding aeration, have you or anyone ever looked into those floating paddle jobs that they use in the shrimp farms ? Being a tight trainee Yorkshireman, I was thinking of building some windmills to drive electric motors to run air pumps. Maybe though, the simple answer is just to be careful and buy a low wattage air pump and pay the leccy bill.....

[ray23]

fm1,Hapa is the name of the actual net (all sizes).

The klong here has to rise 4 metres (which it does on occasions )to effect our ponds so we have bamboo stakes at 2 metre spacing right around the perimeter of the property ,we have blue netting (1 metre wide ,split in half and hemmed to make a 0.50 metre strips which we can attach with cable ties when big floods threaten.The highest flood we have seen in the last 8 years went 6 inches above the walls.Neighbours turned out in force about midnight and the netting went up in about 2 hours.

They reckoned it was to late to go back to bed so a carton of Lao Khao later they all chuffed off on their regular chores and jobs.

Thanks for that OD, full of useful information as always. The local government fishery in Buriram has some amazingly huge ( orange ) nets that they have over their stock ponds. But as usual when you ask a simple question such as, where do you get them from, they don't know !

Regarding aeration, have you or anyone ever looked into those floating paddle jobs that they use in the shrimp farms ? Being a tight trainee Yorkshireman, I was thinking of building some windmills to drive electric motors to run air pumps. Maybe though, the simple answer is just to be careful and buy a low wattage air pump and pay the leccy bill.....

I can run three low volatge pumps, with no electric fees at all. Falls under the minimum. I used two different kinds, I will check and see what they are and post it.

The plan is to move 600 of the fish from the current pond. 200 to a grow pond, 400 those I will need feed or supply air an and see what happens to the family pond. I didn't get the kill rate I expected .

Edited June 4, 2012 by ray23

[ozzydom]

Paddlewheel aerators are hugely expensive to buy off the shelf a cheaper option is a Rootes type ring blower , 1hp will deliver a lot of air.

www.farmaqua.com is the equipment supplier which was part of Nam Sai Farms ,a browse of their website will give you lots of information on all equipment used in fish farming.

A 1hp single phase rootes type blower will run you to about 18000 baht .

Angus is the main man down there.

A simple idea I devised years ago for aeration is a 1 hp motor close coupled to a shaft driven propeller of the small alloy type used on longtail boats ,set on a shallow angle to cause cavitation.

It could be placed on the bank or floated on a small raft.

[David48]

Regarding aeration, have you or anyone ever looked into those floating paddle jobs that they use in the shrimp farms ? Being a tight trainee Yorkshireman, I was thinking of building some windmills to drive electric motors to run air pumps. Maybe though, the simple answer is just to be careful and buy a low wattage air pump and pay the leccy bill.....

Hi there finnomick1 I wrote a bit about Pond Aeration over in that other thread.

Also I thought much about what you are suggesting with wind powered Aeration.

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I know that you are suggesting use the Wind Power to mechanically drive the electric motors and a direct system is exampled above.

However, one of the issues is that dissolved oxygen cycle is quite short lived ... you don't oxygenate your pond really good once and expect it to last a week. It's really a day to day thing.

As ozzydom says above ...(hope I quoting in context)

Checking your fish just after daylight will give an indication of how your oxygen is holding up, if the fish are on the surface ,sucking air, then you have a potential problem.

That Dawn period is critical as that is when typically saturated oxygen levels are at their lowest.

So finnomick1 how does all that relate to your suggestion?

Well, if there is enough breeze to power the Windmill then there is probably enough ripple effect on the pond's surface to inject oxygen.

It's on those perfectly still nights and early morning that present the biggest danger to a fish or Prawn/Shrimp kill.

When the mozzies are driving you nuts ... be worried about the Ponds!

Still nights = mozzies = maybe dead fish in the morning.

So, in summary, lot's of breeze, Windmill pumping away merrily ... but probably not needed.

Thoughts?

EDIT:- Even though it may not appear that way ... OD and I posted at the same time ... just that I write so much slower!

Edited June 4, 2012 by David48

[finnomick1]

Lucky we have these forums really.....thanks for the input Ray, OD and David. I'm obviously at a stage where you've all been before so I will take all of your comments into consideration and do a lot lot more homework before I do anything. Thanks a million ( 3 times ).

[David48]

Lucky we have these forums really.....thanks for the input Ray, OD and David. I'm obviously at a stage where you've all been before so I will take all of your comments into consideration and do a lot lot more homework before I do anything. Thanks a million ( 3 times ).

Seek a second opinion please!

My information is good for that the Thais do ... ray23 and particularly ozziedom give you the heads up with what 'we whiteys' would do.

Just saying like ... hope no-one is offended with the 'we whiteys' comment ...

[ray23]

Boy I can save you guys a lot of trouble I just ask DOM

I looked at slar and wind heavily have friend that uses in Chaing Mai I would say it's very expensive and you need an enginerring degree to use it at the moment

Wind we simply do not enough of a reliable supply in Udon, I would check those things out before you invest a lot of money, Trust me niether system is cheap.

If yuo have power available, yuo would be amazed what you can do with a low voltage air pump.

I have one pump that runs two sections of PVC at the bottom of the pond. You could buy three of these pumps for less then what you could buy one battery for.

But, each to his own. I really thought it would be a great idea, then rulled it out after extensive research. To expensive to much maintainance

[ozzydom]

fm1,Running costs (electricity ) is economical because OD (oxygen depletion) occurs mainly during the dark hours.

Oxygen in the water is replenished from sunlight and water movement (wind action) or artificially from mechanised water agitation.

The critical time seems to be from midnight till dawn so to this end I time my air pump to run 2 hours from midnight till 2am and again from 4am till 6 am.

Observation is the secret to success in fish farming( imho ).The dull days at this time off year are the worst as the oxygen does not get a chance to fully replenish.

A good torch and having an occasional look at the fish in the ponds about midnight and again just on dawn will show if the fish are distressed or not.

[ray23]

From: Ray Fisher

Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 1:33 PM

To: SmilePetShop

Subject: Re: Air PumpYamano AP180 air pump

We have transferred 3,670 to your SCB Account.

Please Ship the AP-180 pump to:

Ok gfuys this is the stronger of the two pumps and actually the one I like best.

Delivery was timely adn the shop is easy to work with. They will also rebuild this pump if yuo wish

[ray23]

This is the pump I like best of the two. The shop is easy to work with. The pump is cost effcient. Most of time I'm under the minimum and pay nothing for electricity. This shop will rebuild the pumps in house. I run 7/24 0 cost so I don't think I will get cheaper operation. They have a lot stronger ones as well but, this is plenty for my big pond. Maybe a 1/4 rai in size ( Guessing)

From: Ray Fisher

Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 1:33 PM

To: SmilePetShop

Subject: Re: Air PumpYamano AP180 air pump

We have transferred 3,670 to your SCB Account.

Please Ship the AP-180 pump to:

Please notify me that you received this information.

[ray23]

This is the other pump I use LP100. both pumps 7/24 0 cost

This is a message from my friend in Chaing Mai the aspect he is talking about solar to run the low volatage pumps. Read throuhg it it will give you and idea hom complicatd solAr is At the moment. I didnlt use the aero tube just frilled small holes in PVC.

Will get the information this week from the 2 shops. Then we can make a comparsion with harbin hopeful star.

I assume you will be using Resun LP100 air pumps and I suggest smilepetshop.com down south. I more or less stumbled across it looking for information on a Yamano AP180 pump. The advantage with the LP100 is they are quiet and low power consumption. Also 5/8" garden hose fits snugly on the output of the pump without having to use hose clamps. Disadvantage the pump is not made for long runs as you have seen. Let me get the information on the panels 1st and we can go from there. You will need a modified sine wave inverter and I recommend a 500 watt one. Maybe 4 panels and a solar battery controller. I wholly recommend that aerotube as you seen the amount of air bubbles it puts out just with that small air pump. The aero tube floats but I use bricks on each end with that thick white electrical wire. I suggest the aero tube be kept off the bottom about a foot or so. Believe it costs about 590 baht per meter. You may be able to purchase the weighted aerotube but that would just add to your expense. You can go with deep cycle batteries or the maintenance free ones which are considerable more expensive. But you do not have to concern yourself with having to check the water all the time and/or doing hydrometer readings which is the best method.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ray23

[T_Dog]

Any suggestions on what bait to use for hook fishing for them? The food pellets don't stay on the hook very long. Wondering if a piece of Pak Buung would work!

[ozzydom]

T_Dog, try squeezing a small amount of cooked sticky rice into a small ball and use small hooks.

[T_Dog]

T_Dog, try squeezing a small amount of cooked sticky rice into a small ball and use small hooks.

Thanks ozzydom. Come to think of it, my stepson uses a single kernal of rice and does pretty good with that. I'll try a small ball of it this afternoon!

[ray23]

Ran into a braqnd new problem that I really don't have clue about. I'm getting ready to move some fish next week. So I had the water in the pond I will be using, tested it today at the fishery. To much nitrate in the water.

Found this on the net:

How to Remove Nitrogen From Water for Fish Ponds

X

Greg Lindberg

Greg Lindberg is a graduate of Purdue University with a Bachelor of Liberal Arts degree in creative writing. His professional writing experience includes three years of technical writing for an agriculture IT department and a major pharmaceutical company, as well as four years as staff writer for a music and film webzine.

By Greg Lindberg, eHow Contributor

High levels of nitrogen in a pond can be extremely toxic to fish and the problem must be controlled as soon as possible. Nitrogen, when combined with hydrogen, creates ammonia, which is hazardous to your pond. Nitrogen encourages algae growth in your pond. A large amount of algae in your pond can create bacteria that are unhealthy for your fish and water. The best way to make sure that there is not too much nitrogen in your pond is to maintain the pond by keeping your filter clean to help remove algae. Does this Spark an idea?

Read more: How to Remove Nitrogen From Water for Fish Ponds | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_5527283_remove-nitrogen-water-fish-ponds.html#ixzz1wt3QtoBb

So here is where it gets confusing been sitting up the pond to grow algae for the fish.

The fishery said to pump the water out and start over, pumping new water in it. The only water in the pond is rain water.

So I have no idea if pumping new water in from the my large pond would make any difference, sine it was promoted for algae groth as well.

I haven't been running the air opump on this pond as there were no fish in it.

Wouldn't hurt me one bit if I lost 400 fish, I have to many anyway.

So run the O-2 pump fpr a week or so?

Rain water filled it this time. So that doesn't seem like an answer.?

Pump out this water fill it from the other pond?

Any ideas Dom ?

[ozzydom]

Life cycle of a fish pond

Fish eat bugs, algae, and other plants that might be present in the pond, and then create waste. The fish waste combines with decaying leaves to create ammonia, which is toxic to the fish. To counter the ammonia, a bacteria called Nitrosomonas converts it to nitrite. Because nitrite is also toxic, another bacteria called Nitrobacter converts it to nitrate, basically fertilizer, which is no longer toxic to fish in small quantities. Plants in the water, including algae, take nourishment from the nitrate, reducing the amount in the water, and rendering the water fish-safe. The fish eat the plants, and the cycle starts all over again.

As you can see ,Nitrite, Nitrate and Nitrogen are different entities.

What was the actual Nitrate reading they came up with ?

Ideal is 20-60 PPM ,toxic is 120PPM

To lower Nitrate levels to below 80PPM stimulate algae and plant growth and aerate.

Dissolve 1.5 kg of your 16/20/0 fertilizer into the pond and aerate to stimulate algael growth.(Algae feeds on Nitrate)

Removing algae leaves you with no plant Nitrate utilization, this is hazarous to fish.

In a worst case scenario,extremely high Nitrate content can lead to the formation of Blue/Green algea ,which can be poisonous, but this is rare and usually occurs where runoff water from heavily fertilised land enters the water.

That small pond is only about 20sq met isnt it? if so ,putting 400 fish in is IMHO pushing the envelope a bit., the ideal would be less than 100.

I think you can find far more knowledgeable authorities than the holder of a Batchelor of Arts degee in Creative Writing

[ray23]

Life cycle of a fish pond

Fish eat bugs, algae, and other plants that might be present in the pond, and then create waste. The fish waste combines with decaying leaves to create ammonia, which is toxic to the fish. To counter the ammonia, a bacteria called Nitrosomonas converts it to nitrite. Because nitrite is also toxic, another bacteria called Nitrobacter converts it to nitrate, basically fertilizer, which is no longer toxic to fish in small quantities. Plants in the water, including algae, take nourishment from the nitrate, reducing the amount in the water, and rendering the water fish-safe. The fish eat the plants, and the cycle starts all over again.

As you can see ,Nitrite, Nitrate and Nitrogen are different entities.

What was the actual Nitrate reading they came up with ?

Ideal is 20-60 PPM ,toxic is 120PPM

To lower Nitrate levels to below 80PPM stimulate algae and plant growth and aerate.

Dissolve 1.5 kg of your 16/20/0 fertilizer into the pond and aerate to stimulate algael growth.(Algae feeds on Nitrate)

Removing algae leaves you with no plant Nitrate utilization, this is hazarous to fish.

In a worst case scenario,extremely high Nitrate content can lead to the formation of Blue/Green algea ,which can be poisonous, but this is rare and usually occurs where runoff water from heavily fertilised land enters the water.

That small pond is only about 20sq met isnt it? if so ,putting 400 fish in is IMHO pushing the envelope a bit., the ideal would be less than 100.

I think you can find far more knowledgeable authorities than the holder of a Batchelor of Arts degee in Creative Writing

LOL The thing use has colors on it, it came back at the highest color. Would runninmg the pump help?

[ozzydom]

Ray ,as I posted ,add some Phosphate and start aerating it to start algael bloom.

Isnt that the pond you had cats in ?

By removing the cats you have broken the cycle and the ammonia from the cats poo has converted to Nitrite and on to Nitrate ,with no plants or algae in the pond to convert the Nitrate it has become stagnent.

Dont fret mate, a bit of care and attention it will come right.

Postpone adding the fish and check again in a week , if Nitrate is still elevated, pump out half the water and top up from the other pond adding about 3 x 5kg bags of rough salt,most feed shops have that coarse salt.

Oh yeah ,and buy yourself a basic water test kit ,they are cheap and easy to use.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ozzydom

[ray23]

Did the phosphate two weeks ago.

When yuo were there it was muddy color as you see in the middle, from 0-2 being pumped in. More I think about it I think the guy took the sample from the top and we didntl get a true reading.

Yes this is the pond we hat the cats in. Sit empty for about two months. Then the rain has been filing it.

I had 400 cat in it,. But, we sold as they grew. Same that I will try now. I need to get the two ponds down to around 1200 Pla Nin.

I'm going to run the pump for a week get things circulated and retest.

If that doesn't work I will pump some out and repump fromn the other pond

The truth is if I lose 400 won't hurt me at all. I simple didn't get the kill off I got the first time, so way to many fish anyway. Live and learn guy sold them in 1,000 lots.

Guys the air pump running this one is the small pump note the PVC bering forced up, you have weight them down, or the pump will take the OPVC right out of the water.

I will wait a bit on the salt and see what happens

[ozzydom]

Ray is that the small pond pictured ? it had no algae when I looked at it.

Or did you hit that one with the 16.20 .0 fertilizer as well?

[ray23]

Ray is that the small pond pictured ? it had no algae when I looked at it.

Or did you hit that one with the 16.20 .0 fertilizer as well?

Yes, it was before I hit it with the cocktail after you were here I put it in. Iv'e done the lime twice trying to clear the water no luck yet.

What you see happened the day after we cut the tall grass in the far edge of the pond. The change was overnihgt after that. One thing for sure have lots of extra fish to experiment with.

Sorry posted on the wrong one.

[ozzydom]

Ray is that the small pond pictured ? it had no algae when I looked at it.

Or did you hit that one with the 16.20 .0 fertilizer as well?

Yes, it was before I hit it with the cocktail after you were here I put it in. Iv'e done the lime twice trying to clear the water no luck yet.

What you see happened the day after we cut the tall grass in the far edge of the pond. The change was overnihgt after that. One thing for sure have lots of extra fish to experiment with.

Sorry posted on the wrong one.

Its no big worry mate ,the algae will feed on the nitrate and then die off from starvation in a week or so.

Its only in ponds with pig or chook poo entering daily that have a perrenial algae scum.

When the algae starts to dissappear do another test and you should find the Nitrate has disappated.

[ray23]

Thanks Dom

[ray23]

Trying something new, a friend told me his fish ate grass. We have plenty around the edges of the pond, with insecticides used on it. So I cut some threw it in they infact did eat it.

So Dom my friend any advantages in that. will it increase their protien intake? Price is sure right.

Edited June 11, 2012 by ray23