Australian Businesswoman Arrested In Thailand For Criminal Defamation

[webfact]

Australian businesswoman arrested in Thailand for criminal defamation

BANGKOK: -- A QUEENSLAND businesswoman has been arrested in Thailand for criminal defamation and was later released on bail, authorities say.

The 51-year-old woman reportedly faces the prospect of a 12-month prison sentence.

Clare Florence, a former NSW chairperson of the Australia Thai Business Council, is on bail in Bangkok where she has been placed on a no-fly list, according to her employer.

Ms Florence, who was working for consultancy firm Business Management International (BMI), was arrested at Suvarnabhumi international airport in Bangkok on May 5 before she was released on bail of 50,000 baht ($A1600).

A Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade spokeswoman confirmed a woman was arrested and released on bail.

"Australian officials in Bangkok are providing her with consular assistance," the spokeswoman said in a statement.

Full story: http://www.theaustra...f-1226370965969

-- THE AUSTRALIAN 2012-05-29

[OzMick]

I wonder who she told the truth about.

[Buchholz]

I wonder who she told the truth about.

The charges against Ms Florence were brought by Malaysian businessman Ronald Wai Choi Ng, the former managing director of Thai gold mining company Tongkah Harbour. Mr Ng based the charge on things that he alleged Ms Florence had said in a private business meeting, Mr Wunderlich said.

Mr Wunderlich said Mr Ng claimed to have a recording of the meeting but the illegal recording would be deemed inadmissible as evidence.

Lawyers for Ms Florence have said there was a potential case for wrongful arrest.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/queensland-woman-on-bail-in-thailand/story-e6frea73-1226370568979

Adelaide Now - May 28, 2012

[Buchholz]

Tongkah Harbour's public website:

http://www.tongkahharbour.com/tongkah/TH/about_boardofdirector_th.html

Mr. Ronald Ng Wai Choi

Position on Board

-Director and Group Chief Executive Officer

-Chairman of Executive Director

-Member of Remuneration Committee

Education/Training

- Bachelor Degree (Honors) in Economics, University of Malaya

Work Experience

1970 - 1972 - Malaysian Industrial Department Bank

1972 - 1974 - Malaysian International Merchant Bankers

1974 - 1976 - CEO of Buildnore Industrial Limited, a Hong Kong Public Listed Company.

1977 - 1980 - Chairman of First Siam Corporation Limited

1980 - 1986 - Established Madam Tan Soo Lan Foundation Scholarship Fund, 198 corporate base in Hong Kong with acquisition of printing and packaging business and moving production into Shenzhen, China and set up joint ventures with provincial governments and City Municipalities to develop the hotel (six hotels) and travel industry as well. The Paron Group was incorporated in 1978. 1986 - 1996 - Entrepreneur in various countries.

1996 - Present - Managing Director of Tongkah Harbour Public Company Limited

Other present positions

- Chairman of Paron Holdings Limited

- President of Paron Resources Limited.

- Chairman of Davenport Sun International

- Chairman of Pamaron Holdings Limited

- Chairman of Sintana Holdings Limited

Positions in Other Core /Affiliated Companies

-Director of Tungkum Limited

-Director of Cholsin Limited

-Director of Sea Minerals Limited

-Director of Sky Cliff Limited

[softgeorge]

If it was a private conversation at a private meeting then what is the problem? Sounds like she was set up and secretly recorded without her knowledge. What next are they going to start charging people for pornography on the grounds of what two people do in the privacy of thier own bedroom?

Next story comes of the back of Yingluks visit to Australia to discuss Investments and doing business in Thailand. Yep come and do business in Thailand and invest your money but do not have a point of view whilst doing so.

[noitom]

What's shocking is that the Thais acted on this charge to "arrest" her rather than defer it to a civil process. Amazing at risk Thailand.

[Tywais]

What's shocking is that the Thais acted on this charge to "arrest" her rather than defer it to a civil process. Amazing at risk Thailand.

Thailand is not the same as many/most other countries, defamation/libel can be a criminal case.

Criminal Defamation

Defamation as a criminal act in Thailand is defined by the Thai Criminal Code as a statement made by a person who imputes anything to another in a manner which is likely to impair the reputation of the latter or to expose him to hatred or contempt. Under the same Code, such person is liable for an imprisonment up to two years or he can be ordered by the court to pay a fine of 200,000 Baht or may be both.

thailandlaw

However:

Civil defamation in Thailand is defined under the Thai Civil and Commercial Code as a statement made contrary to the truth which is asserted or circulated as a fact which is injurious to the reputation or credit of another or his earnings or prosperity in any other manner.

[chooka]

I wonder who she told the truth about.

[psmiller]

Why should Thailand be concerned about a Malaysian Business Man. Malaysia certainly didn't help capture Thaksin when everyone was in hot persuit. They just let him stay there and be on his merry way.

[OzMick]

What's shocking is that the Thais acted on this charge to "arrest" her rather than defer it to a civil process. Amazing at risk Thailand.

Thailand is not the same as many/most other countries, defamation/libel can be a criminal case.

Criminal Defamation

Defamation as a criminal act in Thailand is defined by the Thai Criminal Code as a statement made by a person who imputes anything to another in a manner which is likely to impair the reputation of the latter or to expose him to hatred or contempt. Under the same Code, such person is liable for an imprisonment up to two years or he can be ordered by the court to pay a fine of 200,000 Baht or may be both.

thailandlaw

However:

Civil defamation in Thailand is defined under the Thai Civil and Commercial Code as a statement made contrary to the truth which is asserted or circulated as a fact which is injurious to the reputation or credit of another or his earnings or prosperity in any other manner.

You will notice that Criminal Defamation does not include the phrase "contrary to the truth" yet is the more serious offence. Hence my post #2

[chooka]

What was actually said in this private conversation? How could it be criminal defamation if the word or statement has not been made public?

Come and invest and do business in Thailand but be warned if you be competative we will take you down by any means. Certainly an excellent way to promote business in Thailand. I guess this is the way Thailand does business.

Edited May 29, 2012 by chooka

[Buchholz]

What was actually said in this private conversation? How could it be criminal defamation if the word or statement has not been made public?

Come and invest and do business in Thailand but be warned if you be competative we will take you down by any means. Certainly an excellent way to promote business in Thailand. I guess this is the way Thailand does business.

One might reasonably surmise that the conversation was along the lines of Claire Florence, in her capacity with the Australia Thai Business Council, saying unfavorable things about the company with people seeking information for potential involvement/investment with the company that seems to have some difficulties with their financial statements.

http://www.tongkahharbour.com/tongkah/investor/en_inves/en_finanacials.html

It would be my first inclination when a company is suing someone in her position.

.

[IMA_FARANG]

A good reminder to all that the laws on defamation of character and slander in Thailand are NOT the same as in Austrailia.

This is Thailand and you can not pubicaly say certain things as perhaps you could in Austrailia.

I don't know the details of this particular case....but just remember....the laws in Thailand are different.

So don't open your month and stick you're foot in it.

[Buchholz]

Come and invest and do business in Thailand but be warned if you be competative we will take you down by any means. Certainly an excellent way to promote business in Thailand. I guess this is the way Thailand does business.

I wonder if news of the arrest of an Australia Thai Business Council executive came up in conversations during last night's soiree in Sydney, Australia with Yingluck and...

Thai business executives joining this trip are from PTTEP, Baan Pu, Ratchaburi Electricity Generating, Loxley, Mitr Phol, CP Group, Surapon Foods, and Central Group, as well as the Federation of Thai Industries and the Board of Trade of Thailand. They will meet their Australian counterparts and explore their business opportunities.

Prime Minister Yingluck will also meet Australian corporate leaders from major industries, including Bluescope Steel, Kingsgate (Mining), Australia-New Zealand Banking Group Limited (ANZ), and other leading companies in the auto parts industry. She will give a speech at a dinner during the event “Thai Night with the Prime Minister” at the Shangri-La Hotel in Sydney on May 28.

http://thailand.prd....php?id=6309&a=2

.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Buchholz

[webfact]

Australian woman arrested in Thailand 'fears for safety'

BANGKOK: -- A Brisbane woman arrested in Thailand over criminal defamation charges is reportedly in a fragile state, a close colleague says.

Clare Florence, a former NSW chairperson of the Australia Thai Business Council, is on bail in Bangkok where she has been placed on a no-fly list.

The 51-year-old reportedly faces the prospect of a 12-month prison sentence.

Ms Florence, a senior advisor to consultancy firm Business Management International, was arrested at Suvarnabhumi International Airport in Bangkok on May 5, before she was released on bail with a surety of 50,000 baht ($AU1600).

BMI's Sydney-based chief executive Bruce Wunderlich said Ms Florence was fearful for her safety.

"Life is very cheap in Thailand ... and she can't get out of the country," he told brisbanetimes.com.au this morning.

"I can't go back, because I'll be arrested."

Mr Wunderlich said the charges against Ms Florence were brought by Malaysian businessman Ronald Wai Choi Ng, the former managing director of Thai gold mining company Tongkah Harbour.

Mr Ng is understood to have based the charge on allegations Ms Florence and Mr Wunderlich raised in a private business meeting last November.

Mr Wunderlich said he and Ms Florence had been investigating Mr Ng's business dealings on behalf of a potential investor, when he requested a private meeting with the Thailand businessman.

Full story: http://www.brisbanet...0529-1zg5p.html

-- Brisbane Times 2012-05-29

[Thai at Heart]

Mr Wunderlich said he and Ms Florence had been investigating Mr Ng's business dealings on behalf of a potential investor, when he requested a private meeting with the Thailand businessman.

Mr Wunderlich said Mr Ng has claimed to have a recording of the meeting, although the illegal recording would be deemed inadmissible as evidence.

It is understood Mr Ng has also based the charge on an email sent by Mr Wunderlich requesting the meeting remain "private and confidential"

.

Read more:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/australian-woman-arrested-in-thailand-fears-for-safety-20120529-1zg5p.html#ixzz1wDcOUmay

I wonder if the investor will go through with the deal?

[Buchholz]

Mr Wunderlich said he and Ms Florence had been investigating Mr Ng's business dealings on behalf of a potential investor

as speculated above in Post # 12.

.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Buchholz

[animatic]

Well his company is a big league mining company with a large seabed exploration division.

Mining and seabed exploration are well known not to be environmentally friendly.

To make them so, is much more expensive, and to some minds distorts the price at market to a disadvantage.

http://www.tongkahha...ut_history.html

1980: Shareholding was restructured to become predominantly Thai in response to the Thai government’s policy of encouraging domestic investment in the mining industry. On being registered in Thailand, the Company was renamed “Tongkah Harbour Ltd.”

1990: With the collapse of the tin market in the mid 80’s, the Company diversified into gold and base metal exploration in 1990, and property development in Bangkok where it undertook the construction of “Tongkah Tower”, now known as the “True Tower”.

It may have one Malaysia Director, but it is primarily Thai, and well connected.

True Tower.... any connection to Truevision, True Telecom, etc? hhmmm.

2005: The Company accumulated 83.7 % of Sea Minerals Limited (SML) which has subsequently filed mining leases over 50,000 rai (8,000 hectares) to mine an off-shore deposit in the Andaman Sea where evaluations based on some 1200 drill holes indicate resources of over 50,000 tons of tin in the area.

2007: The Company controls 99.99% of SML which has proven reserves of some 60,000 tons of tin ore (72% Sn) at a cut off grade of 0.10kg/cubic meterNow

2009: Currently, the Company is focused on flotation plant construction at its Loei gold mining operation and commissioning the facility for full operation and production. Meanwhile, exploration for more ore in the concession area is ongoing with recent drilling at Target T-1 indicating increases in sulfide ore resources. THL will also be pursuing licensing for its offshore tin ore resources in the Andaman Sea, and will be monitoring development prospects for its landbank holdings in Bangkok and Phuket. The company will also continue to monitor and following upon, any exploration and development prospects in Thailand and neighboring countries.

Extremely well connected company, and in 'a businesses type at loggerheads with most environmental groups, and fishing companies', etc. Underwater mining as a basic concept... hard to keep those toxic byproducts out of the surrounding seawater, and the fisheries that are there.

Not hard to see where saying the wrong thing 'in good conscience' in a private meeting, might easily make these guys more than a little defensive. Is 'Due Dilligence' encouraged in Thailands business circles? If they have the 'True' mind set that is used on DTAC and the CAT concessions business, this legal attack may not be a surprise.

Maybe far too much money and face to be lost here,

so maybe a good defense is an agressive silencing offense?

Based on their website info it could be speculated that not every investor is prepared to invest in this type of business, and not every analyst will recommend getting involved in this type of business. Maybe something of the sort was said directly in the face of said Former Director?

Edited May 29, 2012 by animatic

[Zpete]

Why should Thailand be concerned about a Malaysian Business Man. Malaysia certainly didn't help capture Thaksin when everyone was in hot persuit. They just let him stay there and be on his merry way.

This guy seems to be full of himself, unable to accept criticism, I guess.

Tea money always gets action in LoS

[chooka]

A good reminder to all that the laws on defamation of character and slander in Thailand are NOT the same as in Austrailia.

This is Thailand and you can not pubicaly say certain things as perhaps you could in Austrailia.

I don't know the details of this particular case....but just remember....the laws in Thailand are different.

So don't open your month and stick you're foot in it.

It was apparently said in private and not publically.

[Nisa]

What's shocking is that the Thais acted on this charge to "arrest" her rather than defer it to a civil process. Amazing at risk Thailand.

Thailand is not the same as many/most other countries, defamation/libel can be a criminal case.

Criminal Defamation

Defamation as a criminal act in Thailand is defined by the Thai Criminal Code as a statement made by a person who imputes anything to another in a manner which is likely to impair the reputation of the latter or to expose him to hatred or contempt. Under the same Code, such person is liable for an imprisonment up to two years or he can be ordered by the court to pay a fine of 200,000 Baht or may be both.

thailandlaw

However:

Civil defamation in Thailand is defined under the Thai Civil and Commercial Code as a statement made contrary to the truth which is asserted or circulated as a fact which is injurious to the reputation or credit of another or his earnings or prosperity in any other manner.

You will notice that Criminal Defamation does not include the phrase "contrary to the truth" yet is the more serious offence. Hence my post #2

You might check the fist lines in link in the link provided:

Defamation In Thailand

Defamation in Thailand is defined as a false statement that is generally classified as intentional and harmful and made by a person against another whether orally or in writing.

or simply look up the word defamation.

[Nisa]

A good reminder to all that the laws on defamation of character and slander in Thailand are NOT the same as in Austrailia.

This is Thailand and you can not pubicaly say certain things as perhaps you could in Austrailia.

I don't know the details of this particular case....but just remember....the laws in Thailand are different.

So don't open your month and stick you're foot in it.

It was apparently said in private and not publically.

Completely irrelevant. You can make a private phone call and still slander somebody just as you can in a private meeting. It depends who you are speaking with and who heard the comments.

The only real difference with the defamation laws in Thailand compared to many other places is that it can be a criminal act as opposed to being restricted only to civil procedures. It has nothing to do with being able to say some thing here that you can't in many other places but rather the consequences for false statements that may harm somebody's image.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Nisa

[chooka]

Come and invest and do business in Thailand but be warned if you be competative we will take you down by any means. Certainly an excellent way to promote business in Thailand. I guess this is the way Thailand does business.

I wonder if news of the arrest of an Australia Thai Business Council executive came up in conversations during last night's soiree in Sydney, Australia with Yingluck and...

Thai business executives joining this trip are from PTTEP, Baan Pu, Ratchaburi Electricity Generating, Loxley, Mitr Phol, CP Group, Surapon Foods, and Central Group, as well as the Federation of Thai Industries and the Board of Trade of Thailand. They will meet their Australian counterparts and explore their business opportunities.

Prime Minister Yingluck will also meet Australian corporate leaders from major industries, including Bluescope Steel, Kingsgate (Mining), Australia-New Zealand Banking Group Limited (ANZ), and other leading companies in the auto parts industry. She will give a speech at a dinner during the event “Thai Night with the Prime Minister” at the Shangri-La Hotel in Sydney on May 28.

http://thailand.prd....php?id=6309&a=2

.

Quite interesting, This may very well make a few people/companies think twice about investing/doing business in Thailand. The fear of company CEO's executives being arrested if they do not agree with Thai counterparts. Would be wise to keep your business interest way out of Thailand. Yingluk may very well be beating a dead horse if her audience has heard of this. Then again I would not be suprised if she states in her press conference in Sydney today that all charges have been dropped as the timing is not very good nor in the interest of her trip.

Edited May 29, 2012 by chooka

[animatic]

Maybe some more historical back story.

And the likely way to extract seabed tin.

http://www1.american.edu/ted/tin.htm

"Gravel Pump is the most common method of extracting alluvial tin deposit in Malaysia. This method involves spraying high-pressure jets of water on rocks containing tin ore and breaking them up. The tin-bearing material is then washed dowm a depression called a sump. A pump brings the material up a palong, a gently sloping wooden structure which separates tin from other materials. The procedure of extracting tin is simple. As the tin-bearing materials flow down the palong, wooden bars across the palong, called riffles traps the heavier iron ore, leaving the rest of the material to be dumped as tailings."

Edited May 29, 2012 by animatic

[Thai at Heart]

A good reminder to all that the laws on defamation of character and slander in Thailand are NOT the same as in Austrailia.

This is Thailand and you can not pubicaly say certain things as perhaps you could in Austrailia.

I don't know the details of this particular case....but just remember....the laws in Thailand are different.

So don't open your month and stick you're foot in it.

It was apparently said in private and not publically.

Doesn't really matter, if it can be proven that it causes damage to someone reputation. If I tell you that you are fat, and it offends you, technically I have caused hurt and damage to you under the Thai way of looking at defamation. Of course, that then comes down to a he said, she said situation, but since when did anyone with enough money worry about that in Thailand. They aren't the ones being inconvenienced and arrested. By the way I think you are thin.

The funny thing, is that this law could be used and abused by millions of people every day here in Thailand, but it isn't because most people don't even know it exists. All they know is don't criticise the pooyai or you'll be in for it. A restaurant reviewer is dicing with his freedom every time he writes one word, fortunately they are always very complementary in Thailand for precisely this reason. To write anything negative would be so easy to prosecute under the defamation law in Thailand, never take and review written in Thailand's word for it.

If I privately express an opinion about someone's financial position to another person, and that opinion causes for example someone to pull out of an investment, that causes damage. Now it is down to he said she said. If the woman has any sense, her lawyers will be telling her to say absolutely nothing, the obligation is on the accuser to prove everything.

Hardly conducive for free speech and actually performing things like due diligence,

[Nisa]

Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who is currently visiting Australia, is reportedly due to hold a press conference in Sydney today, where she will address the matter.

Read more:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/australian-woman-arrested-in-thailand-fears-for-safety-20120529-1zg5p.html#ixzz1wDgnVsyZ

[animatic]

A good reminder to all that the laws on defamation of character and slander in Thailand are NOT the same as in Austrailia.

This is Thailand and you can not pubicaly say certain things as perhaps you could in Austrailia.

I don't know the details of this particular case....but just remember....the laws in Thailand are different.

So don't open your month and stick you're foot in it.

It was apparently said in private and not publically.

But said in front of other potential business associates or investors.

So from a Thai business stand point members of the public were there,

even if it was an open meeting free to all the public.

And most of the partners are high-net-worth Thais, not Malaysians,

he is just the point man for this, possibly because he was running the meeting.

[Thai at Heart]

Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who is currently visiting Australia, is reportedly due to hold a press conference in Sydney today, where she will address the matter.

Read more:

http://www.brisbanet...l#ixzz1wDgnVsyZ

I hope the reporters give her a grilling trying to explain away this ridiculous law.

[Buchholz]

Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who is currently visiting Australia, is reportedly due to hold a press conference in Sydney today, where she will address the matter.

Read more: http://www.brisbanet...l#ixzz1wDgnVsyZ

as speculated above in Post # 23.

these news events are getting too predictable....

[Thai at Heart]

Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who is currently visiting Australia, is reportedly due to hold a press conference in Sydney today, where she will address the matter.

Read more: http://www.brisbanet...l#ixzz1wDgnVsyZ

as speculated above in Post # 23.

these news events are getting too predictable....

Reporter :So madam Prime Minister please could you explain to us how on earth this defamation law works, because to us, it seems the law is an ass!

YS : No comment (Aside: Get his name and sue him, he talked about my ass)