Transport Poised To Further Upgrade Thai Railway System

[webfact]

Transport poised to further upgrade Thai railway system

BANGKOK, 1 June 2012 (NNT) – The Transport Ministry is determined to further improve the country’s railway system through several projects already in execution.

Deputy Transport Minister, Police Lieutenant General Chatt Kuldiloke, said that the Transport Ministry is intending to effectively upgrade Thailand’s railways with an emphasis on safety.

In doing so, the ministry is planning to replace the existing railway system with the 1-meter wide track for a total distance of 4,044 kilometers.

Police Lieutenant General Chatt said that about 40 percent of the targeted tracks have been upgraded, with the remainder expected to be completed by the end of 2014.

At the same time, the Transport Ministry is determined to develop the high-speed train system in the country, with a short route hoped to be operational within 3 years.

The Deputy Transport Minister said that the ministry is now working with Chinese experts to conduct a survey on a number of possible courses, including the Bangkok-Chiang Mai and the Bangkok Nong Khai routes.

Moreover, it is planning to buy 70 new locomotives and repair 56 existing units as well as to expand the Airport Rail Link to Don Muang Airport and to invest more than 5 billion baht in procuring new train cars.

Police Lieutenant General Chatt conceded that the State Railway of Thailand (SRT) is still facing a major hurdle of personnel shortage and is presently recruiting more than 2,400 new staff.

-- NNT 2012-06-01

[OzMick]

Reading the OP, at first I thought he was talking about changing to a wider gauge. Major job!

Reading again, I think he is talking about the change to concrete sleepers and bed upgrades which has been creeping slowly southward (outward) from BKK for years. Some major station and track work taking place outbound from Bang Sue.

These sort of upgrades which could nearly double the average speed of ALL trains makes a lot more sense to me than an expensive white elephant that the people can't afford to use.

[Reasonableman]

Does the existing rail network need to be changed to a wider track for the long-term? If so, how and when would that be done? Is the project to replace wooden sleepers with concrete the long-term solution to the problem, or a short-term fix? Is this cost-effective, if the track needs to be changed completely? Maybe a TV rail expert (I believe we do have 1 or 2) could comment the best strategy for domestic (and crossborder/international) passenger and heavy domestic (and crossborder/international) commercial rail traffic for the next, say, 20-30 years.

[edgarfriendly]

"Poised"

first come, first served at the trough

[nong38]

A short high speed line in 3 years not so much amazing as amusing Thailand. It will take a lot longer than that and no mention where to where.

Still to up grade the rail system is a step in the right direction and I welcome it. A long term plan should be thought about though, all the adjoining countries seem to be using 1 metre guage, with upgrades the top speed might be possible to get a top speed of 100kph, usually it would be 80. If that is satisfactory thats fine but if they are lookigf at true high speed they will have to change the guage and that will cost so a clear long term plan is required of which I have seen no evidence of as yet. That they are thinking about safety and improving public transport I support.

[Payboy]

Police Lieutenant General Chatt Kuldiloke

I hope he's taken permission from the 3 bears.

[OzMick]

Does the existing rail network need to be changed to a wider track for the long-term? If so, how and when would that be done? Is the project to replace wooden sleepers with concrete the long-term solution to the problem, or a short-term fix? Is this cost-effective, if the track needs to be changed completely? Maybe a TV rail expert (I believe we do have 1 or 2) could comment the best strategy for domestic (and crossborder/international) passenger and heavy domestic (and crossborder/international) commercial rail traffic for the next, say, 20-30 years.

Changing the gauge is a HUGE proposition, in fact it might be easier to build a parallel system at the wider gauge first then tear up the old.

Strangely enough the northern and north-eastern lines were originally standard gauge (1.435) and the southern narrow (1m) to match up with the Malaya system. Somebody made a decision, which history will show was a bummer.

To go wider, every double track bridge and many stations will have to be widened. The work they are doing now will allow for increased speed within the limitations of narrow gauge. Double tracking to eliminate bottleneck stops would help immensely for speed and safety.

[chainarong]

Does the existing rail network need to be changed to a wider track for the long-term? If so, how and when would that be done? Is the project to replace wooden sleepers with concrete the long-term solution to the problem, or a short-term fix? Is this cost-effective, if the track needs to be changed completely? Maybe a TV rail expert (I believe we do have 1 or 2) could comment the best strategy for domestic (and crossborder/international) passenger and heavy domestic (and crossborder/international) commercial rail traffic for the next, say, 20-30 years.

You could use duel guage like in Western Australia and I believe other places , all that entails is a third rail and wider sleepers , with standard guage, you can take heavier tonnage up to 40,t axel load, higher speeds and use H/S passenger.This has been achived in W.A without any undue problems and has been operating since 1964, any long term goal should be standard guage..

[damian]

Does the existing rail network need to be changed to a wider track for the long-term? If so, how and when would that be done? Is the project to replace wooden sleepers with concrete the long-term solution to the problem, or a short-term fix? Is this cost-effective, if the track needs to be changed completely? Maybe a TV rail expert (I believe we do have 1 or 2) could comment the best strategy for domestic (and crossborder/international) passenger and heavy domestic (and crossborder/international) commercial rail traffic for the next, say, 20-30 years.

My opinion only but here is the answer to the rail network:

As they do the upgrades (re-sleepering and double tracking) install dual gauge sleepers and lay the rail for both narrow (existing) and standard gauge (existing trains can continue to use the track);

EWhile you're doing the re-sleepering upgrade the design speed and signalling to say 180-200km/h; and

Introduce new standard gauge passenger trains (similar to the airport express so it can also be integrated into the network) and run the passenger network at say 160km/h possibly higher but within the design speed;

Over time introduce new standard gauge freight and locomotives (freight trains can run up to 120km/h these days) to replace the existing narrow gauge stock;

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen a modern system that can use the upgraded exiting infrastructure at a fraction of the cost of a dedicated high speed line that no one will be able to afford to use and can't carry freight.

If you are wondering why it needs to be standard gauge its because narrow gauge limits the design speed unless we do what Queensland has done and introduce narrow gauge tilt trains but this won't he;p the freight side.

I wonder how much the Chinese will charge for the above to be put into a consultants report.

[Reasonableman]

Does the existing rail network need to be changed to a wider track for the long-term? If so, how and when would that be done? Is the project to replace wooden sleepers with concrete the long-term solution to the problem, or a short-term fix? Is this cost-effective, if the track needs to be changed completely? Maybe a TV rail expert (I believe we do have 1 or 2) could comment the best strategy for domestic (and crossborder/international) passenger and heavy domestic (and crossborder/international) commercial rail traffic for the next, say, 20-30 years.

My opinion only but here is the answer to the rail network:

As they do the upgrades (re-sleepering and double tracking) install dual gauge sleepers and lay the rail for both narrow (existing) and standard gauge (existing trains can continue to use the track);

EWhile you're doing the re-sleepering upgrade the design speed and signalling to say 180-200km/h; and

Introduce new standard gauge passenger trains (similar to the airport express so it can also be integrated into the network) and run the passenger network at say 160km/h possibly higher but within the design speed;

Over time introduce new standard gauge freight and locomotives (freight trains can run up to 120km/h these days) to replace the existing narrow gauge stock;

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen a modern system that can use the upgraded exiting infrastructure at a fraction of the cost of a dedicated high speed line that no one will be able to afford to use and can't carry freight.

If you are wondering why it needs to be standard gauge its because narrow gauge limits the design speed unless we do what Queensland has done and introduce narrow gauge tilt trains but this won't he;p the freight side.

I wonder how much the Chinese will charge for the above to be put into a consultants report.

If you can speak Chinese, you may be in like Flynn.

[DGS1244]

Dual gauge is difficult to work where you have many crossings and points in a system, it works in Australia because there a vast distances between stations and depots with little in between. Will not work in Thailand where stations are close together and the existing narrow gauge restricts train speed and numbers. The only solution is to go to standard gauge, some call it wide gauge which is incorrect, which can take high speed trains. The intial 'wide; gauge was 6 feet and rather impractical although very safe, the original GWR in the UK was wide gauge installed by Brunnel.

[koo]

I think there are two more problems in addition to the gauge width:

1) The current network only has one set of rails. This means that trains have to wait at stations to pass eachother, and increasing traffic on the tracks makes it all a mess. Timetables are already a joke: When one train on the northeastern track happens to be a couple of minutes late, it cumulates on the following trains and makes everyone wait at the passing stations, and thus the early morning train arrives in Nong Khai "maybe sometime before noon."

2) Electrification. Currently only the Bangkok city trains (sky train, airport link, subway) run on electricity. Everything else is diesel. To build a track with high speed traffic, it needs to be electric.

Looking at the proposals at hand, I very much anticipate on seeing what the Chinese plans are like, since a major overhaul is needed in Thailand's rail network.

(and no, I am not an industry expert)

[OzMick]

I think there are two more problems in addition to the gauge width:

1) The current network only has one set of rails. This means that trains have to wait at stations to pass eachother, and increasing traffic on the tracks makes it all a mess. Timetables are already a joke: When one train on the northeastern track happens to be a couple of minutes late, it cumulates on the following trains and makes everyone wait at the passing stations, and thus the early morning train arrives in Nong Khai "maybe sometime before noon."

2) Electrification. Currently only the Bangkok city trains (sky train, airport link, subway) run on electricity. Everything else is diesel. To build a track with high speed traffic, it needs to be electric.

Looking at the proposals at hand, I very much anticipate on seeing what the Chinese plans are like, since a major overhaul is needed in Thailand's rail network.

(and no, I am not an industry expert)

Overhead electrification is a big expense, much better to concentrate on track improvement and double-tracking. You don't have to go electric for speed. UK has the Intercity 125 since the mid-70's running regular routes at 125mph / 200km/hr.

[gand]

Are they referring to extending BTS to Don Muang Airport? They should.

[hellodolly]

I thought the Chinese were only interested in a line from Singapore to Peking.

I was under the impression that it would go through Isson.

Are they now interested in the other train kines?

[Bagwan]

Dual gauge is difficult to work where you have many crossings and points in a system, it works in Australia because there a vast distances between stations and depots with little in between. Will not work in Thailand where stations are close together and the existing narrow gauge restricts train speed and numbers. The only solution is to go to standard gauge, some call it wide gauge which is incorrect, which can take high speed trains. The intial 'wide; gauge was 6 feet and rather impractical although very safe, the original GWR in the UK was wide gauge installed by Brunnel.

Not so. Brunel built the GWR (God's Wonderful Railway) to a gauge of 7 feet 0.25 inches. This enabled greater comfort for passengers, higher speeds were posssible with safety, and permitted heavier loads to be carried. However the wider the gauge then the greater civil engineering difficulty since the radius of bends in the track must increase - not a happy prospect in hilly terrain. The railways of North Wales built to carry slate from inland quarries to the coast were built to a gauge of 1 foot 11.5 inches to enable them to cope with the Snowdonia terrain.

[thaicbr]

"Deputy Transport Minister, Police Lieutenant General Chatt Kuldiloke"

So is he a Deputy Transport Minister OR a Police Lieutenant General.... SURELY he can't be both!!!!

[TheCure]

There will never be a high speed ( > 250 kph) line between Bangkok and Chiang Mai, let alone Nong Khai.

Absolute <deleted>.

The only possibly viable route is that to Rayong .

[OzMick]

"Deputy Transport Minister, Police Lieutenant General Chatt Kuldiloke"

So is he a Deputy Transport Minister OR a Police Lieutenant General.... SURELY he can't be both!!!!

That would be his rank in his former employment, he carries the title over. You can bet on any formal occasion he would show up looking like a military milkman, complete with parachute wings and a chestful of meaningless campaign ribbons.

[trainman34014]

For the amount of money they say they are going to spend on a High Speed system, which will never pay for itself, they could change the entire existing system to the good old 4' 8'' Standard Gauge that is used in around 65% of the Worlds railway systems to date. They need to double track all mainline routes and electrify as much of the system as possible.

No point in going on as it will never happen !

[gand]

Will they extend the airport rail link from swampy to Pattaya?

[Bagwan]

For the amount of money they say they are going to spend on a High Speed system, which will never pay for itself, they could change the entire existing system to the good old 4' 8'' Standard Gauge that is used in around 65% of the Worlds railway systems to date. They need to double track all mainline routes and electrify as much of the system as possible.

No point in going on as it will never happen !

Building a railway to standard gauge for high speed running presents serious civil engineering problems when encountering hilly terrain. The following is an extract from Wikipedia on the building of the Settle to Carlisle line in Victorian times. I grant that then the line was constructed using manual labour and that today machines will do most of the work, but that doesn't detract from the enormous cost that is entailed.

The line was engineered to express standards throughout—local traffic was secondary and many stations were miles from the villages they purported to serve. The railway's summit at 1,169 feet (356 m) is at Ais Gill, north of Garsdale. To keep the gradients to less than 1 in 100 (1%), a requirement for fast running using steam traction, huge engineering works were required. Even so the terrain imposed a 16-mile (26 km) climb from Settle to Blea Moor, almost all of it at 1 in 100, and known to enginemen as ‘the long drag’.

The line required 14 tunnels and 22 viaducts, the most notable is the 24 arch Ribblehead Viaduct which is 104 ft (32 m) high and 440 yards (402 m) long. The swampy ground meant that the piers had to be sunk 25 ft (8 m) below the peat and set in concrete in order to provide a suitable foundation. Soon after crossing the viaduct, the line enters Blea Moor tunnel, 2,629 yd (2,404 m) long and 500 ft (152 m) below the moor, before emerging onto Dent Head viaduct. The summit at Ais Gill is the highest point reached by main line trains in England.

Building the West Coast Main Line through the Moffat and Lowther Hill ranges were no holiday either.

I have no confidence that Thailand could build a high speed railway to points North and would sub contract probably to the Chinese - thus putting themselves in everlasting and, probably increasing over time, debt.