Red Shirts Told To Fight 'Attempts To Unseat Govt'

[kerryk]

If there is another coup today, 99.9% of Thai will celebrate.

I think there is only one Thai person posting on this thread. Wildorchid. So that makes the Thai people posting in this thread 100% opposed to what you are saying.

[philw]

If there is another coup today, 99.9% of Thai will celebrate.

You really think so ??

[kerryk]

I will take out my red shirt iron it and wear it with pride!!!, red flag infront of my business, and home.

The people have voted,(spoken) fair and clearly win govt. and again, red shirts elected, that is power of the people, if anyone wants another party in power then vote, or if you are not able to vote (falang) then TUFF LUCK... welcome to democercy.

I bet you don't even know what democercy means.

DEMOCRACY,

noun (plural democracies)

(mass noun)

a system of govenment by the whole population or all of the eligible members of the state, typically through elcted representatives:

a system of parliamentary

• (count noun) a state goverend under a system of democracy amultiparty democracy
  
• control of an organization or group by the majority of its members: the intended extension of industrial democracy
  
• the practice or priciples of social equaity; demands for greater democracy
  

(origin): late 16th centuary from frence d'emocratie, via late Latin Greek demokratia, from demos "the people" + - kratia 'power, rule.

"Oxford dictionaries"

• "Government of the people, for the people, by the people"
  
• US president Abraham Lincon (1809-1865)
  

I belive that is ,game set and match, checkmate, your down for the count!!!

Did Lincoln say this before or after residing over a bloody civil war that killed more of his country men then all the other wars combined? Next....

Lincoln said this as part of the Gettysburg Address after the bloodiest battle of the Civil War where 50,000 men were killed in three days.

[beammeup]

I will take out my red shirt iron it and wear it with pride!!!,     red flag infront of my business, and home.

The people have voted,(spoken) fair and clearly win govt. and again, red shirts elected, that is power of the people, if anyone wants another party in power then vote, or if you are not able to vote (falang) then TUFF LUCK... welcome to democercy.

Wowzers, this one takes the cake. This is thanks to vote buying, village headman, lack of education leaving people duped (apparently foreigners too, who have a new blend of "democrecy" which merges Pol Pot communism and some capitalism here and there between the corruption?).

Once agian, THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN, the votes counted, democracy in action, what more do you want? Or if this party dose not serve your agender then you need to try harder to get your prefered 'rep' in power, or more close to the truth is it you can not vote as you are not thai??? if you don't like then take your bat and ball and go home,,, welcome to democracy

Well enjoy your red shirt now cause it looks to me like the whole thing is falling apart. I cant see it lasting another 6 months at the rate they (PT) are screwing up

[philw]

Physical wounds heal gradually over long periods of time, providing they are left alone to heal and tended with care. The same is true with society although the timeframe is much longer, the process of leaving-it-alone is the same. Why is it so hard to understand that YS and TS picking at scabs and opening old wounds time and time again is exactly the one thing that is guaranteed to harm Thailand further, and should not be done to any type of injury.

What this nation needs is stability and law, not more hardheaded militant rhetoric or bills that overturn the law. If bills are proposed they should be for the purpose of genuinely improving society or healing the damage already caused to Thailand, not bills designed to pretend the damage never happened or to re-open the wounds. How you can have a 'process of reconciliation' involving only one side of the division, while the other side are ignored and threatened with sonic cannons.

And Thaksin shouldn't even have any outlet for his voice in Thailand, partly because he causes division and reopens the wounds that he himself caused in the past, also because he is a dangerous fleeing criminal, and has showed his mad reckless desperation by funding and launching an armed uprising that led to over 90 deaths in 2010. All his words now should be discounted as that of a dangerous fleeing criminal who can add complicity to murder during the 2010 uprising to his list of whitecollar crimes and accusations of genocide.

so i take it you don't give any credence to the thought of general amnesties being a positive step towards a solution for political turmoil?

Like most posters on here, clearly not.

It's all the demon Thaksin's fault and all other players in the political structure of the country are faultless......................

I'm curious about the " genocide" though, that accusation adds a bit of salt to the broth.

Let's hope the next coup is not as bloody as it could be.

Sadly.

[beammeup]

If there is another coup today, 99.9% of Thai will celebrate.

I think there is only one Thai person posting on this thread. Wildorchid. So that makes the Thai people posting in this thread 100% opposed to what you are saying.

More likely he is married to one and the business is in her name.

[beammeup]

Physical wounds heal gradually over long periods of time, providing they are left alone to heal and tended with care. The same is true with society although the timeframe is much longer, the process of leaving-it-alone is the same. Why is it so hard to understand that YS and TS picking at scabs and opening old wounds time and time again is exactly the one thing that is guaranteed to harm Thailand further, and should not be done to any type of injury.

What this nation needs is stability and law, not more hardheaded militant rhetoric or bills that overturn the law. If bills are proposed they should be for the purpose of genuinely improving society or healing the damage already caused to Thailand, not bills designed to pretend the damage never happened or to re-open the wounds. How you can have a 'process of reconciliation' involving only one side of the division, while the other side are ignored and threatened with sonic cannons.

And Thaksin shouldn't even have any outlet for his voice in Thailand, partly because he causes division and reopens the wounds that he himself caused in the past, also because he is a dangerous fleeing criminal, and has showed his mad reckless desperation by funding and launching an armed uprising that led to over 90 deaths in 2010. All his words now should be discounted as that of a dangerous fleeing criminal who can add complicity to murder during the 2010 uprising to his list of whitecollar crimes and accusations of genocide.

so i take it you don't give any credence to the thought of general amnesties being a positive step towards a solution for political turmoil?

Like most posters on here, clearly not.

It's all the demon Thaksin's fault and all other players in the political structure of the country are faultless......................

I'm curious about the " genocide" though, that accusation adds a bit of salt to the broth.

Let's hope the next coup is not as bloody as it could be.

Sadly.

There doesn't need to be a coup if they just stop pushing to get TS and his money back. He has all his cronies running the show. I would have thought if he was a good business man he would make the most of the current situation.

[philw]

If there is another coup today, 99.9% of Thai will celebrate.

I think there is only one Thai person posting on this thread. Wildorchid. So that makes the Thai people posting in this thread 100% opposed to what you are saying.

More likely he is married to one and the business is in her name.

And the point of your juvenile innuendo ???

[ThaiOats]

Physical wounds heal gradually over long periods of time, providing they are left alone to heal and tended with care. The same is true with society although the timeframe is much longer, the process of leaving-it-alone is the same. Why is it so hard to understand that YS and TS picking at scabs and opening old wounds time and time again is exactly the one thing that is guaranteed to harm Thailand further, and should not be done to any type of injury.

What this nation needs is stability and law, not more hardheaded militant rhetoric or bills that overturn the law. If bills are proposed they should be for the purpose of genuinely improving society or healing the damage already caused to Thailand, not bills designed to pretend the damage never happened or to re-open the wounds. How you can have a 'process of reconciliation' involving only one side of the division, while the other side are ignored and threatened with sonic cannons.

And Thaksin shouldn't even have any outlet for his voice in Thailand, partly because he causes division and reopens the wounds that he himself caused in the past, also because he is a dangerous fleeing criminal, and has showed his mad reckless desperation by funding and launching an armed uprising that led to over 90 deaths in 2010. All his words now should be discounted as that of a dangerous fleeing criminal who can add complicity to murder during the 2010 uprising to his list of whitecollar crimes and accusations of genocide.

so i take it you don't give any credence to the thought of general amnesties being a positive step towards a solution for political turmoil?

Who is seeking amnesty? The yellow shirts, the red shirts, regular people? How would Amnesty bring about reconciliation an end towards political turmoil? If both sides agree that an amnesty would bring about reconciliation then there wouldn't be this conflict. However, the idea of an amnesty is being pushed by one side only.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ThaiOats

[philw]

Physical wounds heal gradually over long periods of time, providing they are left alone to heal and tended with care. The same is true with society although the timeframe is much longer, the process of leaving-it-alone is the same. Why is it so hard to understand that YS and TS picking at scabs and opening old wounds time and time again is exactly the one thing that is guaranteed to harm Thailand further, and should not be done to any type of injury.

What this nation needs is stability and law, not more hardheaded militant rhetoric or bills that overturn the law. If bills are proposed they should be for the purpose of genuinely improving society or healing the damage already caused to Thailand, not bills designed to pretend the damage never happened or to re-open the wounds. How you can have a 'process of reconciliation' involving only one side of the division, while the other side are ignored and threatened with sonic cannons.

And Thaksin shouldn't even have any outlet for his voice in Thailand, partly because he causes division and reopens the wounds that he himself caused in the past, also because he is a dangerous fleeing criminal, and has showed his mad reckless desperation by funding and launching an armed uprising that led to over 90 deaths in 2010. All his words now should be discounted as that of a dangerous fleeing criminal who can add complicity to murder during the 2010 uprising to his list of whitecollar crimes and accusations of genocide.

so i take it you don't give any credence to the thought of general amnesties being a positive step towards a solution for political turmoil?

Like most posters on here, clearly not.

It's all the demon Thaksin's fault and all other players in the political structure of the country are faultless......................

I'm curious about the " genocide" though, that accusation adds a bit of salt to the broth.

Let's hope the next coup is not as bloody as it could be.

Sadly.

There doesn't need to be a coup if they just stop pushing to get TS and his money back. He has all his cronies running the show. I would have thought if he was a good business man he would make the most of the current situation.

You"re right.

But now it's a bit more than just Thaksin,..........

[ThaiOats]

If most of us agree that politicians are corrupt and are in it for themselves, then we'd have to work within those boundaries. That being said, we can only hope that they don't get TOO greedy at the expense of others. Problem with Thaksin is his corruption and greed has no limits. Business elites who take advantage of the poor are going to be out there no matter where you look, but they have their limits. Perhaps some are just satisfied with what they have, while others are hesitant to break the law.

Like I said, with all his riches, Thaksin can just 'Let it Be'. Instead he yearns for more with all these malpractices of promoting family members and rewarding his supporters based on loyalty and not ability. Yingluck and Jatuporn are good examples of personal benefits over the country. Manipulating the public and inciting HATE for fellow citizens is just wrong. I didn't necessarily see the Democrats out there (until recently) putting up stages to incite hate for the Yingluck administration.

While the WEF was going on, the PAD and Democrats didn't go and interfere the meeting did they? Back in 2009 while ASEAN LEADERS were in Thailand as guests, red shirts had them running for their lives. Talk about decency.

[nurofiend]

Physical wounds heal gradually over long periods of time, providing they are left alone to heal and tended with care. The same is true with society although the timeframe is much longer, the process of leaving-it-alone is the same. Why is it so hard to understand that YS and TS picking at scabs and opening old wounds time and time again is exactly the one thing that is guaranteed to harm Thailand further, and should not be done to any type of injury.

What this nation needs is stability and law, not more hardheaded militant rhetoric or bills that overturn the law. If bills are proposed they should be for the purpose of genuinely improving society or healing the damage already caused to Thailand, not bills designed to pretend the damage never happened or to re-open the wounds. How you can have a 'process of reconciliation' involving only one side of the division, while the other side are ignored and threatened with sonic cannons.

And Thaksin shouldn't even have any outlet for his voice in Thailand, partly because he causes division and reopens the wounds that he himself caused in the past, also because he is a dangerous fleeing criminal, and has showed his mad reckless desperation by funding and launching an armed uprising that led to over 90 deaths in 2010. All his words now should be discounted as that of a dangerous fleeing criminal who can add complicity to murder during the 2010 uprising to his list of whitecollar crimes and accusations of genocide.

so i take it you don't give any credence to the thought of general amnesties being a positive step towards a solution for political turmoil?

Who is seeking amnesty? The yellow shirts, the red shirts, regular people? How would Amnesty bring about reconciliation an end towards political turmoil? If both sides agree that an amnesty would bring about reconciliation then there wouldn't be this conflict. However, the idea of an amnesty is being pushed by one side only.

the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.

so they are guilty of putting him above everyone else, just like they accuse the ptp of doing.

of course i won't argue that helping thaksin is not part of ptp's agenda.

i think amnesty can be a great solution for political turmoil as has been proven around the world and that includes thailand in the past.

i'd like to hear your opinion on what should be done to move forward.

leaving things as they are is no answer for moving forward... thaksin going to live in a cave isn't the answer either.

and if you think thaksin coming back and being thrown in jail is an answer for stability, well, i'll just leave that one in the air.

the country can't just leave things as they are, because people are still waiting for some kind of answer and solution, and that's the reason things have been relatively peaceful, because people are expecting a solution... to just move on and forget is not the cure, people will get restless.

[beammeup]

OK I must be missing something cause as far as I can see thats all its about. Or did you mean that the bills are for all Thais. I understand that they will make that clear to everyone shortly.In rely to Philw

Edited June 5, 2012 by beammeup

[beammeup]

Physical wounds heal gradually over long periods of time, providing they are left alone to heal and tended with care. The same is true with society although the timeframe is much longer, the process of leaving-it-alone is the same. Why is it so hard to understand that YS and TS picking at scabs and opening old wounds time and time again is exactly the one thing that is guaranteed to harm Thailand further, and should not be done to any type of injury.

What this nation needs is stability and law, not more hardheaded militant rhetoric or bills that overturn the law. If bills are proposed they should be for the purpose of genuinely improving society or healing the damage already caused to Thailand, not bills designed to pretend the damage never happened or to re-open the wounds. How you can have a 'process of reconciliation' involving only one side of the division, while the other side are ignored and threatened with sonic cannons.

And Thaksin shouldn't even have any outlet for his voice in Thailand, partly because he causes division and reopens the wounds that he himself caused in the past, also because he is a dangerous fleeing criminal, and has showed his mad reckless desperation by funding and launching an armed uprising that led to over 90 deaths in 2010. All his words now should be discounted as that of a dangerous fleeing criminal who can add complicity to murder during the 2010 uprising to his list of whitecollar crimes and accusations of genocide.

so i take it you don't give any credence to the thought of general amnesties being a positive step towards a solution for political turmoil?

Who is seeking amnesty? The yellow shirts, the red shirts, regular people? How would Amnesty bring about reconciliation an end towards political turmoil? If both sides agree that an amnesty would bring about reconciliation then there wouldn't be this conflict. However, the idea of an amnesty is being pushed by one side only.

the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.

so they are guilty of putting him above everyone else, just like they accuse the ptp of doing.

of course i won't argue that helping thaksin is not part of ptp's agenda.

i think amnesty can be a great solution for political turmoil as has been proven around the world and that includes thailand in the past.

i'd like to hear your opinion on what should be done to move forward.

leaving things as they are is no answer for moving forward... thaksin going to live in a cave isn't the answer either.

and if you think thaksin coming back and being thrown in jail is an answer for stability, well, i'll just leave that one in the air.

the country can't just leave things as they are, because people are still waiting for some kind of answer and solution, and that's the reason things have been relatively peaceful, because people are expecting a solution... to just move on and forget is not the cure, people will get restless.

You seemed to have talked yourself into a circle there. Isn't your last statement a contradiction to the first part?

[philw]

Physical wounds heal gradually over long periods of time, providing they are left alone to heal and tended with care. The same is true with society although the timeframe is much longer, the process of leaving-it-alone is the same. Why is it so hard to understand that YS and TS picking at scabs and opening old wounds time and time again is exactly the one thing that is guaranteed to harm Thailand further, and should not be done to any type of injury.

What this nation needs is stability and law, not more hardheaded militant rhetoric or bills that overturn the law. If bills are proposed they should be for the purpose of genuinely improving society or healing the damage already caused to Thailand, not bills designed to pretend the damage never happened or to re-open the wounds. How you can have a 'process of reconciliation' involving only one side of the division, while the other side are ignored and threatened with sonic cannons.

And Thaksin shouldn't even have any outlet for his voice in Thailand, partly because he causes division and reopens the wounds that he himself caused in the past, also because he is a dangerous fleeing criminal, and has showed his mad reckless desperation by funding and launching an armed uprising that led to over 90 deaths in 2010. All his words now should be discounted as that of a dangerous fleeing criminal who can add complicity to murder during the 2010 uprising to his list of whitecollar crimes and accusations of genocide.

so i take it you don't give any credence to the thought of general amnesties being a positive step towards a solution for political turmoil?

Who is seeking amnesty? The yellow shirts, the red shirts, regular people? How would Amnesty bring about reconciliation an end towards political turmoil? If both sides agree that an amnesty would bring about reconciliation then there wouldn't be this conflict. However, the idea of an amnesty is being pushed by one side only.

the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.

so they are guilty of putting him above everyone else, just like they accuse the ptp of doing.

of course i won't argue that helping thaksin is not part of ptp's agenda.

i think amnesty can be a great solution for political turmoil as has been proven around the world and that includes thailand in the past.

i'd like to hear your opinion on what should be done to move forward.

leaving things as they are is no answer for moving forward... thaksin going to live in a cave isn't the answer either.

and if you think thaksin coming back and being thrown in jail is an answer for stability, well, i'll just leave that one in the air.

the country can't just leave things as they are, because people are still waiting for some kind of answer and solution, and that's the reason things have been relatively peaceful, because people are expecting a solution... to just move on and forget is not the cure, people will get restless.

Good point, especially the last para.

[nurofiend]

the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.

so they are guilty of putting him above everyone else, just like they accuse the ptp of doing.

of course i won't argue that helping thaksin is not part of ptp's agenda.

i think amnesty can be a great solution for political turmoil as has been proven around the world and that includes thailand in the past.

i'd like to hear your opinion on what should be done to move forward.

leaving things as they are is no answer for moving forward... thaksin going to live in a cave isn't the answer either.

and if you think thaksin coming back and being thrown in jail is an answer for stability, well, i'll just leave that one in the air.

the country can't just leave things as they are, because people are still waiting for some kind of answer and solution, and that's the reason things have been relatively peaceful, because people are expecting a solution... to just move on and forget is not the cure, people will get restless.

You seemed to have talked yourself into a circle there. Isn't your last statement a contradiction to the first part?

eh no, no it's not... an amnesty is not "leaving things as they are"

it is not inaction, it is an action.

[philw]

OK I must be missing something cause as far as I can see thats all its about. Or did you mean that the bills are for all Thais. I understand that they will make that clear to everyone shortly.In rely to Philw

Huh ????................

Suggest you don 't rely on me.

What bills ??

[beammeup]

the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.

so they are guilty of putting him above everyone else, just like they accuse the ptp of doing.

of course i won't argue that helping thaksin is not part of ptp's agenda.

i think amnesty can be a great solution for political turmoil as has been proven around the world and that includes thailand in the past.

i'd like to hear your opinion on what should be done to move forward.

leaving things as they are is no answer for moving forward... thaksin going to live in a cave isn't the answer either.

and if you think thaksin coming back and being thrown in jail is an answer for stability, well, i'll just leave that one in the air.

the country can't just leave things as they are, because people are still waiting for some kind of answer and solution, and that's the reason things have been relatively peaceful, because people are expecting a solution... to just move on and forget is not the cure, people will get restless.

You seemed to have talked yourself into a circle there. Isn't your last statement a contradiction to the first part?

eh no, no it's not... an amnesty is not "leaving things as they are"

it is not inaction, it is an action.

So all of his crimes are to be forgiven or just the ones he was convicted of so far? Does he get his money back? So who besides Taksin does this help?

[nurofiend]

the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.

so they are guilty of putting him above everyone else, just like they accuse the ptp of doing.

of course i won't argue that helping thaksin is not part of ptp's agenda.

i think amnesty can be a great solution for political turmoil as has been proven around the world and that includes thailand in the past.

i'd like to hear your opinion on what should be done to move forward.

leaving things as they are is no answer for moving forward... thaksin going to live in a cave isn't the answer either.

and if you think thaksin coming back and being thrown in jail is an answer for stability, well, i'll just leave that one in the air.

the country can't just leave things as they are, because people are still waiting for some kind of answer and solution, and that's the reason things have been relatively peaceful, because people are expecting a solution... to just move on and forget is not the cure, people will get restless.

You seemed to have talked yourself into a circle there. Isn't your last statement a contradiction to the first part?

eh no, no it's not... an amnesty is not "leaving things as they are"

it is not inaction, it is an action.

So all of his crimes are to be forgiven or just the ones he was convicted of so far? Does he get his money back? So who besides Taksin does this help?

not having the bills to go through every detail, my answer has to be i don't know

they would only be assumptions and i don't want to make an ass out of me and you.

[volk666]

Just posted on the content of the bills here

They had a fairly logical train of thought here - define who is covered by the amnesty and then define what is going to happen to them, and then they inserted "Thaksin clause" because he doesn't fall under post-coup related protests and violence.

To cover Thaksin they had to make that clause so broad that they don't really need all the previous sections - nullify all post-coup judicial proceedings if they affected anyone in any way.

[ThaiOats]

Physical wounds heal gradually over long periods of time, providing they are left alone to heal and tended with care. The same is true with society although the timeframe is much longer, the process of leaving-it-alone is the same. Why is it so hard to understand that YS and TS picking at scabs and opening old wounds time and time again is exactly the one thing that is guaranteed to harm Thailand further, and should not be done to any type of injury.

What this nation needs is stability and law, not more hardheaded militant rhetoric or bills that overturn the law. If bills are proposed they should be for the purpose of genuinely improving society or healing the damage already caused to Thailand, not bills designed to pretend the damage never happened or to re-open the wounds. How you can have a 'process of reconciliation' involving only one side of the division, while the other side are ignored and threatened with sonic cannons.

And Thaksin shouldn't even have any outlet for his voice in Thailand, partly because he causes division and reopens the wounds that he himself caused in the past, also because he is a dangerous fleeing criminal, and has showed his mad reckless desperation by funding and launching an armed uprising that led to over 90 deaths in 2010. All his words now should be discounted as that of a dangerous fleeing criminal who can add complicity to murder during the 2010 uprising to his list of whitecollar crimes and accusations of genocide.

so i take it you don't give any credence to the thought of general amnesties being a positive step towards a solution for political turmoil?

Who is seeking amnesty? The yellow shirts, the red shirts, regular people? How would Amnesty bring about reconciliation an end towards political turmoil? If both sides agree that an amnesty would bring about reconciliation then there wouldn't be this conflict. However, the idea of an amnesty is being pushed by one side only.

the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.

so they are guilty of putting him above everyone else, just like they accuse the ptp of doing.

of course i won't argue that helping thaksin is not part of ptp's agenda.

i think amnesty can be a great solution for political turmoil as has been proven around the world and that includes thailand in the past.

i'd like to hear your opinion on what should be done to move forward.

leaving things as they are is no answer for moving forward... thaksin going to live in a cave isn't the answer either.

and if you think thaksin coming back and being thrown in jail is an answer for stability, well, i'll just leave that one in the air.

the country can't just leave things as they are, because people are still waiting for some kind of answer and solution, and that's the reason things have been relatively peaceful, because people are expecting a solution... to just move on and forget is not the cure, people will get restless.

Where you've said that 'the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.', it's not entirely true.

There were many wrong doers from all factions and the Democrats even said that people should not just forget. People need to remember and know that there is such a thing as rules of law. To support their reasoning, Abhisit even said that Suthep and himself would gladly adhere to the rules of law and not invoke their MP status if they were found guilty. The PTP are in power now so why don't they find charges against Abhisit or can they not?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right? If the Democrats, PAD and multi-colored shirts as independent parties have to fight for their cause, they are definitely outnumbered. Which leads me to believe that these minority parties do not need any white washing. Why should the people who've commited crimes be able to get away with things? If any individuals in those minor parties have commited crimes, then go ahead and find charges against them.

Also, before discussing Thai reconciliation, let's take TV forum members as an example. Between the anti-PTP/Thaksin and anti-Dems/Abhisit, there is no personal grudge, we just have different views when it comes to politics. Same as it is in Thailand. We're not talking about inequality here, that's a different story. What I'm trying to say is that, the ones who need to reconcile are actually the politicians. But that's not going to happen in a multiparty democracy right? There will always be 'sides' and differing view points as each party will push their own agenda. Reconciliation is not for the people but for the politicians. Therefore, what makes the idea of general amnesty as a method of reconciliation apalling is that it has NOTHING to do with it. It's just plain ole whitewashing of wrong doers.

If you disagree with me then I challenge anyone to find a possible method of 'reconciliation' amongst TV members. Or is reconciliation the wrong term to use here?

Edited June 5, 2012 by ThaiOats

[nurofiend]

Where you've said that 'the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.', it's not entirely true.

There were many wrong doers from all factions and the Democrats even said that people should not just forget. People need to remember and know that there is such a thing as rules of law. To support their reasoning, Abhisit even said that Suthep and himself would gladly adhere to the rules of law and not invoke their MP status if they were found guilty. The PTP are in power now so why don't they find charges against Abhisit or can they not?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right? If the Democrats, PAD and multi-colored shirts as independent parties have to fight for their cause, they are definitely outnumbered. Which leads me to believe that these minority parties do not need any white washing. Why should the people who've commited crimes be able to get away with things? If any individuals in those minor parties have commited crimes, then go ahead and find charges against them.

Also, before discussing Thai reconciliation, let's take TV forum members as an example. Between the anti-PTP/Thaksin and anti-Dems/Abhisit, there is no personal grudge, we just have different views when it comes to politics. Same as it is in Thailand. We're not talking about inequality here, that's a different story. What I'm trying to say is that, the ones who need to reconcile are actually the politicians. But that's not going to happen in a multiparty democracy right? There will always be 'sides' and differing view points as each party will push their own agenda. Reconciliation is not for the people but for the politicians. Therefore, what makes the idea of general amnesty as a method of reconciliation apalling is that it has NOTHING to do with it. It's just plain ole whitewashing of wrong doers.

If you disagree with me then I challenge anyone to find a possible method of 'reconciliation' amongst TV members. Or is reconciliation the wrong term to use here?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right?

i disagree.

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone except Thaksin, then there shouldn't be fear of a military coup

while i do agree there are obviously ulterior motives for pushing an amnesty for some, i don't subscribe to this thought of reconcilliation only benefiting politicians.

tbh i'm not sure myself if amnesty is the answer, if everyone else truly opposes the amnesty then it could only be seen as self serving.

however, i don't think it's the amnesty itself that people are truly opposing, and this is where the question of 'how is it ever going to be possible to move forward when the attempts to fix the past are opposed based on what thaksin gains rather than their own merit' raises it's ugly head.

the dems can't ask ptp not to treat thaksin special and then ask to have him excluded from any possible reconcilliation processes, that's called having your cake and eating it too.

there's no doubt that the political climate has been on a downward spiral since the coup, so what do they do?

[ThaiOats]

Where you've said that 'the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.', it's not entirely true.

There were many wrong doers from all factions and the Democrats even said that people should not just forget. People need to remember and know that there is such a thing as rules of law. To support their reasoning, Abhisit even said that Suthep and himself would gladly adhere to the rules of law and not invoke their MP status if they were found guilty. The PTP are in power now so why don't they find charges against Abhisit or can they not?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right? If the Democrats, PAD and multi-colored shirts as independent parties have to fight for their cause, they are definitely outnumbered. Which leads me to believe that these minority parties do not need any white washing. Why should the people who've commited crimes be able to get away with things? If any individuals in those minor parties have commited crimes, then go ahead and find charges against them.

Also, before discussing Thai reconciliation, let's take TV forum members as an example. Between the anti-PTP/Thaksin and anti-Dems/Abhisit, there is no personal grudge, we just have different views when it comes to politics. Same as it is in Thailand. We're not talking about inequality here, that's a different story. What I'm trying to say is that, the ones who need to reconcile are actually the politicians. But that's not going to happen in a multiparty democracy right? There will always be 'sides' and differing view points as each party will push their own agenda. Reconciliation is not for the people but for the politicians. Therefore, what makes the idea of general amnesty as a method of reconciliation apalling is that it has NOTHING to do with it. It's just plain ole whitewashing of wrong doers.

If you disagree with me then I challenge anyone to find a possible method of 'reconciliation' amongst TV members. Or is reconciliation the wrong term to use here?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right?

i disagree.

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone except Thaksin, then there shouldn't be fear of a military coup

while i do agree there are obviously ulterior motives for pushing an amnesty for some, i don't subscribe to this thought of reconcilliation only benefiting politicians.

tbh i'm not sure myself if amnesty is the answer, if everyone else truly opposes the amnesty then it could only be seen as self serving.

however, i don't think it's the amnesty itself that people are truly opposing, and this is where the question of 'how is it ever going to be possible to move forward when the attempts to fix the past are opposed based on what thaksin gains rather than their own merit' raises it's ugly head.

the dems can't ask ptp not to treat thaksin special and then ask to have him excluded from any possible reconcilliation processes, that's called having your cake and eating it too.

there's no doubt that the political climate has been on a downward spiral since the coup, so what do they do?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone except Thaksin, then there shouldn't be fear of a military coup

Again you have to find out why would whitewashing ANYONE be a method of reconciliation. The opposition saw that it had nothing with reconciliation and that's why they opposed it. The cause here is that the PTP/Thaksin is doing it for themselves with the already mentioned effects unless you can argue that whitewashing people can be for reconciliation.

The question then becomes, does the military need white washing? If they do see it as a method of reconciliation to which they can favor from, then they'd have no reason to do a military coup.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ThaiOats

[GentlemanJim]

Where you've said that 'the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.', it's not entirely true.

There were many wrong doers from all factions and the Democrats even said that people should not just forget. People need to remember and know that there is such a thing as rules of law. To support their reasoning, Abhisit even said that Suthep and himself would gladly adhere to the rules of law and not invoke their MP status if they were found guilty. The PTP are in power now so why don't they find charges against Abhisit or can they not?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right? If the Democrats, PAD and multi-colored shirts as independent parties have to fight for their cause, they are definitely outnumbered. Which leads me to believe that these minority parties do not need any white washing. Why should the people who've commited crimes be able to get away with things? If any individuals in those minor parties have commited crimes, then go ahead and find charges against them.

Also, before discussing Thai reconciliation, let's take TV forum members as an example. Between the anti-PTP/Thaksin and anti-Dems/Abhisit, there is no personal grudge, we just have different views when it comes to politics. Same as it is in Thailand. We're not talking about inequality here, that's a different story. What I'm trying to say is that, the ones who need to reconcile are actually the politicians. But that's not going to happen in a multiparty democracy right? There will always be 'sides' and differing view points as each party will push their own agenda. Reconciliation is not for the people but for the politicians. Therefore, what makes the idea of general amnesty as a method of reconciliation apalling is that it has NOTHING to do with it. It's just plain ole whitewashing of wrong doers.

If you disagree with me then I challenge anyone to find a possible method of 'reconciliation' amongst TV members. Or is reconciliation the wrong term to use here?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right?

i disagree.

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone except Thaksin, then there shouldn't be fear of a military coup

while i do agree there are obviously ulterior motives for pushing an amnesty for some, i don't subscribe to this thought of reconcilliation only benefiting politicians.

tbh i'm not sure myself if amnesty is the answer, if everyone else truly opposes the amnesty then it could only be seen as self serving.

however, i don't think it's the amnesty itself that people are truly opposing, and this is where the question of 'how is it ever going to be possible to move forward when the attempts to fix the past are opposed based on what thaksin gains rather than their own merit' raises it's ugly head.

the dems can't ask ptp not to treat thaksin special and then ask to have him excluded from any possible reconcilliation processes, that's called having your cake and eating it too.

there's no doubt that the political climate has been on a downward spiral since the coup, so what do they do?

But what does tax evasion have to do with any politically motivated crimes? Ok hate speeches, inciting a mob to violence and burning down the city during a protest meeting could be considered politically motivated. But how does tax evasion for personal gain (very significant gain) fall in to the area of a political amnesty? Does that also mean that the Dem MP who may have allegedly murdered someone get off scott free? The murder was not politically motivated. The whole thing is simply a white wash and is a complete pile of tosh.

[nurofiend]

Where you've said that 'the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.', it's not entirely true.

There were many wrong doers from all factions and the Democrats even said that people should not just forget. People need to remember and know that there is such a thing as rules of law. To support their reasoning, Abhisit even said that Suthep and himself would gladly adhere to the rules of law and not invoke their MP status if they were found guilty. The PTP are in power now so why don't they find charges against Abhisit or can they not?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right? If the Democrats, PAD and multi-colored shirts as independent parties have to fight for their cause, they are definitely outnumbered. Which leads me to believe that these minority parties do not need any white washing. Why should the people who've commited crimes be able to get away with things? If any individuals in those minor parties have commited crimes, then go ahead and find charges against them.

Also, before discussing Thai reconciliation, let's take TV forum members as an example. Between the anti-PTP/Thaksin and anti-Dems/Abhisit, there is no personal grudge, we just have different views when it comes to politics. Same as it is in Thailand. We're not talking about inequality here, that's a different story. What I'm trying to say is that, the ones who need to reconcile are actually the politicians. But that's not going to happen in a multiparty democracy right? There will always be 'sides' and differing view points as each party will push their own agenda. Reconciliation is not for the people but for the politicians. Therefore, what makes the idea of general amnesty as a method of reconciliation apalling is that it has NOTHING to do with it. It's just plain ole whitewashing of wrong doers.

If you disagree with me then I challenge anyone to find a possible method of 'reconciliation' amongst TV members. Or is reconciliation the wrong term to use here?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right?

i disagree.

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone except Thaksin, then there shouldn't be fear of a military coup

while i do agree there are obviously ulterior motives for pushing an amnesty for some, i don't subscribe to this thought of reconcilliation only benefiting politicians.

tbh i'm not sure myself if amnesty is the answer, if everyone else truly opposes the amnesty then it could only be seen as self serving.

however, i don't think it's the amnesty itself that people are truly opposing, and this is where the question of 'how is it ever going to be possible to move forward when the attempts to fix the past are opposed based on what thaksin gains rather than their own merit' raises it's ugly head.

the dems can't ask ptp not to treat thaksin special and then ask to have him excluded from any possible reconcilliation processes, that's called having your cake and eating it too.

there's no doubt that the political climate has been on a downward spiral since the coup, so what do they do?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone except Thaksin, then there shouldn't be fear of a military coup

Again you have to find out why would whitewashing ANYONE be a method of reconciliation. The opposition saw that it had nothing with reconciliation and that's why they opposed it. The cause here is that the PTP/Thaksin is doing it for themselves with the already mentioned effects unless you can argue that whitewashing people can be for reconciliation.

the reason why i think amnesty could be a possible method of reconciliation, is that people who've been jailed, sentenced or are awaiting sentence would have felt justified in their cause for doing whatever they have done, and an amnesty would give them a political status rather than a criminal one.

in other words if the whatever shirts get deemed criminals but feel justified for the anger and dicontent they felt due to the political situation, then this would politicize their actions and they wouldn't be deemed criminals but products of the political turmoil... and i believe that's what most were.

i'm not saying it's the answer, but the only good argument against it is thaksin benefiting from it and i'm not seeing all the alternatives, even though i've asked a few times for people to suggest some.

[waza]

Where you've said that 'the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.', it's not entirely true.

There were many wrong doers from all factions and the Democrats even said that people should not just forget. People need to remember and know that there is such a thing as rules of law. To support their reasoning, Abhisit even said that Suthep and himself would gladly adhere to the rules of law and not invoke their MP status if they were found guilty. The PTP are in power now so why don't they find charges against Abhisit or can they not?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right? If the Democrats, PAD and multi-colored shirts as independent parties have to fight for their cause, they are definitely outnumbered. Which leads me to believe that these minority parties do not need any white washing. Why should the people who've commited crimes be able to get away with things? If any individuals in those minor parties have commited crimes, then go ahead and find charges against them.

Also, before discussing Thai reconciliation, let's take TV forum members as an example. Between the anti-PTP/Thaksin and anti-Dems/Abhisit, there is no personal grudge, we just have different views when it comes to politics. Same as it is in Thailand. We're not talking about inequality here, that's a different story. What I'm trying to say is that, the ones who need to reconcile are actually the politicians. But that's not going to happen in a multiparty democracy right? There will always be 'sides' and differing view points as each party will push their own agenda. Reconciliation is not for the people but for the politicians. Therefore, what makes the idea of general amnesty as a method of reconciliation apalling is that it has NOTHING to do with it. It's just plain ole whitewashing of wrong doers.

If you disagree with me then I challenge anyone to find a possible method of 'reconciliation' amongst TV members. Or is reconciliation the wrong term to use here?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right?

i disagree.

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone except Thaksin, then there shouldn't be fear of a military coup

while i do agree there are obviously ulterior motives for pushing an amnesty for some, i don't subscribe to this thought of reconcilliation only benefiting politicians.

tbh i'm not sure myself if amnesty is the answer, if everyone else truly opposes the amnesty then it could only be seen as self serving.

however, i don't think it's the amnesty itself that people are truly opposing, and this is where the question of 'how is it ever going to be possible to move forward when the attempts to fix the past are opposed based on what thaksin gains rather than their own merit' raises it's ugly head.

the dems can't ask ptp not to treat thaksin special and then ask to have him excluded from any possible reconcilliation processes, that's called having your cake and eating it too.

there's no doubt that the political climate has been on a downward spiral since the coup, so what do they do?

I dispute what you say here. The political climate hasnt been on a downward spiral since the coup. All oposition post coup has been against one person, Thaksin and his agents. There was little popular opposition to the PPP until they tried to introduce an whitewash bill for thaksin, same for the TRT party. By popular opposition I mean the Yellowshirts et al not the legal charges that occured persuant to the elections and for which they were disbanded.

The Redshirts, per se werent a grassroot organisation form independantly but a invention of Thaksin, financed to counter the Yellowshirts and provide a popular movement to push his agenda.

Similarly, despite some incredulity with the makeup and leadership of the PTP, there has not been any popular uprising against it until it likewise attempted to introduce and enact a Thaksin whitewash bill.

In conclusion it is self evident that all social unrest post coup has been either manufactured by Thaksin, through his redshirts or against the white washing of Thaksin by his agents by the anti Thaksin groups. Take Thaksin out of the equation and I think civil and social unrest will dissipate and the Thai people would unify to the same extent as they have in the past.

[nurofiend]

But what does tax evasion have to do with any politically motivated crimes? Ok hate speeches, inciting a mob to violence and burning down the city during a protest meeting could be considered politically motivated. But how does tax evasion for personal gain (very significant gain) fall in to the area of a political amnesty? Does that also mean that the Dem MP who may have allegedly murdered someone get off scott free? The murder was not politically motivated. The whole thing is simply a white wash and is a complete pile of tosh.

But how does tax evasion for personal gain (very significant gain) fall in to the area of a political amnesty?

if it was just that in of itself then i would fully agree.

but if you were to say that you know for a fact that this charge wasn't put forward to get at thaksin and add some legitimacy for the coup, rather than upholding the law.. then you would be lying..

[nurofiend]

Where you've said that 'the only reason amnesty is being opposed is because it would also help one person, do you think they would oppose it if it didn't involve thaksin? i don't, and they've basically said as much.', it's not entirely true.

There were many wrong doers from all factions and the Democrats even said that people should not just forget. People need to remember and know that there is such a thing as rules of law. To support their reasoning, Abhisit even said that Suthep and himself would gladly adhere to the rules of law and not invoke their MP status if they were found guilty. The PTP are in power now so why don't they find charges against Abhisit or can they not?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right? If the Democrats, PAD and multi-colored shirts as independent parties have to fight for their cause, they are definitely outnumbered. Which leads me to believe that these minority parties do not need any white washing. Why should the people who've commited crimes be able to get away with things? If any individuals in those minor parties have commited crimes, then go ahead and find charges against them.

Also, before discussing Thai reconciliation, let's take TV forum members as an example. Between the anti-PTP/Thaksin and anti-Dems/Abhisit, there is no personal grudge, we just have different views when it comes to politics. Same as it is in Thailand. We're not talking about inequality here, that's a different story. What I'm trying to say is that, the ones who need to reconcile are actually the politicians. But that's not going to happen in a multiparty democracy right? There will always be 'sides' and differing view points as each party will push their own agenda. Reconciliation is not for the people but for the politicians. Therefore, what makes the idea of general amnesty as a method of reconciliation apalling is that it has NOTHING to do with it. It's just plain ole whitewashing of wrong doers.

If you disagree with me then I challenge anyone to find a possible method of 'reconciliation' amongst TV members. Or is reconciliation the wrong term to use here?

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone and not only Thaksin, then there would be no opposition from the military hence there shouldn't be fear of a military coup right?

i disagree.

If the reconciliation bill is to whitewash everyone except Thaksin, then there shouldn't be fear of a military coup

while i do agree there are obviously ulterior motives for pushing an amnesty for some, i don't subscribe to this thought of reconcilliation only benefiting politicians.

tbh i'm not sure myself if amnesty is the answer, if everyone else truly opposes the amnesty then it could only be seen as self serving.

however, i don't think it's the amnesty itself that people are truly opposing, and this is where the question of 'how is it ever going to be possible to move forward when the attempts to fix the past are opposed based on what thaksin gains rather than their own merit' raises it's ugly head.

the dems can't ask ptp not to treat thaksin special and then ask to have him excluded from any possible reconcilliation processes, that's called having your cake and eating it too.

there's no doubt that the political climate has been on a downward spiral since the coup, so what do they do?

I dispute what you say here. The political climate hasnt been on a downward spiral since the coup. All oposition post coup has been against one person, Thaksin and his agents. There was little popular opposition to the PPP until they tried to introduce an whitewash bill for thaksin, same for the TRT party. By popular opposition I mean the Yellowshirts et al not the legal charges that occured persuant to the elections and for which they were disbanded.

The Redshirts, per se werent a grassroot organisation form independantly but a invention of Thaksin, financed to counter the Yellowshirts and provide a popular movement to push his agenda.

Similarly, despite some incredulity with the makeup and leadership of the PTP, there has not been any popular uprising against it until it likewise attempted to introduce and enact a Thaksin whitewash bill.

In conclusion it is self evident that all social unrest post coup has been either manufactured by Thaksin, through his redshirts or against the white washing of Thaksin by his agents by the anti Thaksin groups. Take Thaksin out of the equation and I think civil and social unrest will dissipate and the Thai people would unify to the same extent as they have in the past.

you've pointed out who you blame for causing political problems, but i don't see any argument to state that it hasn't been going downhill since 06... obviously there has been some upward bumps on the hill from time to time but you're hardly going to tell me you think it's getting better are you?

Edited June 5, 2012 by nurofiend

[ThaiOats]

I'll agree with you that it continued to spiral down after 06 until 09 because Thaksin still had his hands in politics then. How do we know that the country won't go on an upward trend if we don't take Thaksin out of the picture?

Edited June 5, 2012 by ThaiOats

[Thaddeus]

But what does tax evasion have to do with any politically motivated crimes? Ok hate speeches, inciting a mob to violence and burning down the city during a protest meeting could be considered politically motivated. But how does tax evasion for personal gain (very significant gain) fall in to the area of a political amnesty? Does that also mean that the Dem MP who may have allegedly murdered someone get off scott free? The murder was not politically motivated. The whole thing is simply a white wash and is a complete pile of tosh.

But how does tax evasion for personal gain (very significant gain) fall in to the area of a political amnesty?

if it was just that in of itself then i would fully agree.

but if you were to say that you know for a fact that this charge wasn't put forward to get at thaksin and add some legitimacy for the coup, rather than upholding the law.. then you would be lying..

And of course, you know differently, and can prove it...... don't you.