Thailand News

[sriracha john]

Murder suspects attacked

Hundreds of residents, some brandishing wooden clubs, forced Thai police to cancel a re-enactment of the murder of British backpacker Katherine Horton.

They broke through security and attacked the two men accused of killing her.

The violence took place as police escorted the two Thai suspects back to the scene of the crime, on the island of Koh Samui.

Besieged by protesters, police were forced to cancel the planned re-enactment of the murder of student Miss Horton, 21, from Cardiff, whose battered body was found on January 2 by a jet-skier in the Gulf of Thailand.

Two Thai fisherman confessed on Monday to killing Miss Horton and DNA tests indicated the suspects raped her, police said.

[sonnyJ]

I think its a set up, the way the top brass have pressured for a quick result to save face, and all contradictory reports coming out, saying they new had who done it two days before they charged anyone, there is just to many inconstistancies here, it sticks, they found a couple of no-hopers to stick the blame on, in all the name of saving face.

I always thought Thai Justice was an oxymoron and this just another example, but top brass like it like that, it suits them

I feel so sorry for girls family and stitching up a couple of dirt poor fishermen ain't gonna change a thing

I would be very careful what you say here, since you have no proof of such a 'set-up' (neither do we).

They had SO many people (more than 25 as I recall) on the 'suspect-list', including Farang men...WHY would they do such a horrible thing as 'setting up' poor firshermen? For the moment let's have just a little faith and trust in the expertise of the forensic experts from BKK. I may assume they (unfortunately) learned a lot with forensics due to the Tsunami vistims.

In this tragic murder I don't see WHY DNA- and forensic experts from Bangkok would 'commit' such a set-up.

LaoPo

Why would they? 'Cos some one told them so.

There has been lots of pressure internationally and the 'gov.' has been emphasicing this a lot. I'm sure it's not too difficult to buy people to take the blame. Possibility of honest mistake is also, let's say likely.

Would say both are as likely to happen.

I do hope I'm wrong. So far there seems to be not too much to complain about.

Learned forensics due tsunami? Hope so too. All the forensics doctors there were foreigners. Second week 2005, it was so badly organized, I would say, not organized.

Wat Yan Yao, think it was called, Phang Nga, our group reported there and was told to go eat some free food and drinks.. after some more talking we were let in, me and some friends were given a list of 20-30 numbers each to match the bodies with, there was not a single one on the grounds there, some didn't have numbers on at all. One day, after getting dirty with fluids and all, the group spraying some sterilyzing stuff I believed, had disappeared, (propably for the food). Tried to ask for ten minutes, but was not available. Mai bpen rai.. I could continue for pages. Well wasn't completely useless, just had to organize myself 99% by myself after I got to understand whats going on. Locals and everybody were very helpful, only the AC bus didn't give a free ride.

To get back to OP

My condolences to all relatives. I hope justice will be served.

[sonnyJ]

Money, money, money

It's a shame that locals don't get this kind of help.. well, maybe the rich ones do.

Just referring to the previous post, and the practises of police and gov in Thailand in general.

[Jai Dee]

Thaksin calls for execution of Welsh tourist's killers

LOEI - Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra Tuesday called for the execution of two fishermen if they are convicted of the rape and murder of Welsh tourist Katherine Horton on Koh Samui.

"They must be sentenced to the harshest possible punishment," Thaksin told reporters in the northern town of Loei where he was travelling.

"They have caused serious damage to our country's reputation. By giving them the maximum sentence, it will give remedy to the relatives and the British government and show that we are taking this case seriously," he said.

Bualoy Kothisit, 23, and Wichai Sonkhaoyai, 24, were arrested early Monday morning and confessed to have killed Horton. DNA tests have confirmed that they had raped her.

Horton's body was found January 2 in the sea off Samui.

Police Tuesday planned to have the two re-enact their alleged crime but canceled the reenactments for fear that angry crowds would attack suspects.

Hundreds of Samui residents and foreign tourists rallied and denounced the suspects and also called for their execution.

Although some 200 policemen were deployed to keep law and order during the re-enactment, police decided to cancel it after feeling the strong emotion anong the onlookers.

Source: The Nation - Jan 10 , 2006

[sonnyJ]

Let's kill them tomorrow. Then it's all done.

Sabaai dii jaai...

I do hope these all people are not wrong.

<snip>

Edited January 10, 2006 by george

[sonnyJ]

I just said in the previous post, Thaksin can order him self gag, several times. Maybe there should be some developement?

(I though like the gag order for him myself, even it's not fair for the people who elected him, is it?).

Edited January 10, 2006 by sonnyJ

[Hadrian1]

Yes, I wish he would shut up (Thaksin) and let the police and judicial process continue without political intervention. He is influencing this case every step of the way.....and it is a very serious matter! But he seems only concerned about revenue or loss of. I don't like it and neither should anybody else who wants justice for the Horton family and all involved.......

[sonnyJ]

Sorry, I am going out of line here. Still hope few people understood what I was talking about.

[Insight]

Yes, I wish he would shut up (Thaksin) and let the police and judicial process continue without political intervention. He is influencing this case every step of the way.....and it is a very serious matter! But he seems only concerned about revenue or loss of. I don't like it and neither should anybody else who wants justice for the Horton family and all involved.......

I reckon The Nation have took advantage there a bit. In all of the Thaksin quotes in the article, there's no mention of the word "execute". However, there is the assumption that he knows what's best to make the British people happy - words heavily misplaced IMHO.

[Patsycat]

Still sounds really wierd to me that in this case it only took 1 week to find the so called murderers - but in alot of other cases the parents and loved ones are still waiting years down the line to know what happened to their children. Welcome to the real world Thailand - no more pussy footing around and making up stories. I am sure there are going to be re-opened cases of missing foreigners or raped foreigners etc. which are going to rock the boat a little bit.

[thaigene2]

Yes...I'm sceptical too..

Just a little too fast and easy..

It can take months to solve 'basic opportunistic rape cases' in developed countries with more sophisticated investigation methods (and training).

And why would police target two luckless young fishermen? Why not... who's going to investigate on their behalf? ThaiVisa?

Surprised they didn't grab a couple of itinerant Burmese guys..

Maybe these fishermen did it..I don't know of course. But I for one would have felt a lot better if Khunying Porntip handled the sampling and examining of DNA. Too late now of course..there will always be lingering suspicions.

Heartfelt sorrow for the family of this girl..

[bulmercke]

(From Jai Dee's post) Thaksin:"They must be sentenced to the harshest possible punishment" .......obviously referring to the the death sentence.

Pretty rich coming from a man who has plenty of blood on his own hands; Tak bai, Khrue See, the elimination of well over two thousand "supposed" drug dealers etc. early on in his first term.

Anyway, in Thailand, the death penalty doesn't apply to those who have confessed to their crimes before going to court. The exception are those convicted of drugs offences.

Edited January 10, 2006 by bulmercke

[sonnyJ]

Maybe these fishermen did it..I don't know of course. But I for one would have felt a lot better if Khunying Porntip handled the sampling and examining of DNA.

Yeah, I saw her there Wat Yan Yao. She was sitting there and handing out these signed books of her for many fans.. In TV they said she did something important too.

[bulmercke]

Yes...I'm sceptical too..

Just a little too fast and easy..

It can take months to solve 'basic opportunistic rape cases' in developed countries with more sophisticated investigation methods (and training).

And why would police target two luckless young fishermen? Why not... who's going to investigate on their behalf? ThaiVisa?

Surprised they didn't grab a couple of itinerant Burmese guys..

Maybe these fishermen did it..I don't know of course. But I for one would have felt a lot better if Khunying Porntip handled the sampling and examining of DNA. Too late now of course..there will always be lingering suspicions.

Heartfelt sorrow for the family of this girl..

Yes. Got to agree with you. The Thai police have often been known to "extract confessions" from totally innocent suspects. And the pressure was really on them with this case...from the very top...downwards.

In the United Kingdom there has been massive coverage of this case, on radio, print media, television etc and, without doubt, in the future, parents will in a lot of cases dissuade their children from "backpacking" in Thailand.

As for the DNA testing, who is over-seeing this aspect of the case to ensure that these two fisherman haven't been framed? If ever there was a case which necessitated the collaring of two suspects pretty damned quick.... then this was it.

I personally think, as mentioned above, that Khun Porntip should be allowed to carry out an independent forensic investigation, completely independent of the police.

This would be a proper and wise move considering this country's past record of falsifying evidence.

At the end of the day it boils down to whether you trust a country's police force or you don't.

I don't. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. (However, having said that, the country's tourist police do tend to have a better reputation than the regular force.)

Edited January 10, 2006 by bulmercke

[Kupal]

Yes, I wish he would shut up (Thaksin) and let the police and judicial process continue without political intervention. He is influencing this case every step of the way.....and it is a very serious matter! But he seems only concerned about revenue or loss of. I don't like it and neither should anybody else who wants justice for the Horton family and all involved.......

Inappropriate post deleted.

/Admin

[gburns57au]

DNA testing can not be rigged so easily...

For instance the sample from the victim would show DNA from more than one person (mixed DNA) There would be DNA from the victim plus others.....The sample from the victim would then be checked against DNA taken from somewhere else on the victim, usually blood, hair or skin, This way they can create her profile. The samples would be taken from the accused usually a swab from the inside of the mouth and also blood. These swabs or samples would then create a DNA profile that is unique to each of them.

When the sperm sample from the victim is tested it is then matched to the mens DNA profiles, this would then give a reading as to the probabilty of their involvement. This would usually run into the chances being 1 in many hundreds of thousands or millions. This is established by the existing database available....(in some cases the database on minority groups is not sufficient to provide reliable results.) Any interference to the mens samples would result in a mismatched DNA result as the mens profiles are 100% unique to themselves.

In this case the result would probably read something like this;

the sample from the victim showed 3 separate sources of DNA, 1 Female and 2 male. The mens samples when matched against the sample from the victim showed that the probability of the DNA coming from accused number 1 was 1:22,765,895, The possibility of DNA coming from the second accused was 1:18,654,283. There would be points where the DNA didnt match or was inconclusive but this is normal in mixed DNA samples and obviously the more points that are matched increases the probability.

If they tried to use the vaginal sample as the mens sample it would not work because of the mixed DNA in the sample. That sample would not match the mens samples 100%. If they tried to inject the mens samples into the vaginal sample then that sample would read that 4 or 5 different sources of DNA were found.

Does that answer some questions about DNA testing??

[phuketsiam]

DNA tests are probably hard to fake if they are checkedm but who's checking them.

A lot of talk about Khunying Porntio, well she is the country's top forensic scientistm so it makes sense she should be leading the forensic analysism but she's not, why notm well she is known to be very honest and uncorruptable, could there be a reason there.

I bet if the British police were asked to replicate the test they wouldn't be allowed, I'll bet

[bulmercke]

DNA testing can not be rigged so easily...

For instance the sample from the victim would show DNA from more than one person (mixed DNA) There would be DNA from the victim plus others.....The sample from the victim would then be checked against DNA taken from somewhere else on the victim, usually blood, hair or skin, This way they can create her profile. The samples would be taken from the accused usually a swab from the inside of the mouth and also blood. These swabs or samples would then create a DNA profile that is unique to each of them.

When the sperm sample from the victim is tested it is then matched to the mens DNA profiles, this would then give a reading as to the probabilty of their involvement. This would usually run into the chances being 1 in many hundreds of thousands or millions. This is established by the existing database available....(in some cases the database on minority groups is not sufficient to provide reliable results.) Any interference to the mens samples would result in a mismatched DNA result as the mens profiles are 100% unique to themselves.

In this case the result would probably read something like this;

the sample from the victim showed 3 separate sources of DNA, 1 Female and 2 male. The mens samples when matched against the sample from the victim showed that the probability of the DNA coming from accused number 1 was 1:22,765,895, The possibility of DNA coming from the second accused was 1:18,654,283. There would be points where the DNA didnt match or was inconclusive but this is normal in mixed DNA samples and obviously the more points that are matched increases the probability.

If they tried to use the vaginal sample as the mens sample it would not work because of the mixed DNA in the sample. That sample would not match the mens samples 100%. If they tried to inject the mens samples into the vaginal sample then that sample would read that 4 or 5 different sources of DNA were found.

Does that answer some questions about DNA testing??

Thanks for the info.

Don't dispute anything you say about the intricacies of testing and establishing beyond doubt matches, but what we're saying is that an independent body should be allowed to take specimen samples from the victim and accused and should be allowed to carry out, quite independently, the above procedures to act as a check to verify and corroborate the original police findings - that's all!

Is it normal, in Thailand or anywhere else in the world, to have independent verification of DNA tests?

I guess, when DNA testing was carried out on some of the tsunami victims in an attempt to establish their identities, no secondary testing was required because it was obviously in everyone's interest to find out who was who.

[gburns57au]

Thanks for the info.

Don't dispute anything you say about the intricacies of testing and establishing beyond doubt matches, but what we're saying is that an independent body should be allowed to take specimen samples from the victim and accused and should be allowed to carry out, quite independently, the above procedures to act as a check to verify and corroborate the original police findings - that's all!

Is it normal, in Thailand or anywhere else in the world, to have independent verification of DNA tests?

I guess, when DNA testing was carried out on some of the tsunami victims in an attempt to establish their identities, no secondary testing was required because it was obviously in everyone's interest to find out who was who.

In most systems the swabs are taken from the accused and sealed...the accused then signs the samples and they are taken to an independent body for the testing. But as I said if they (the cops) tried to interfere or tried to swap the samples, then the matches required for a conviction just wouldnt occur, the samples would be rendered useless.

It is not the police that do the testing and in this case as the accused were taken to Bangkok for the testing I would believe that the samples would have been taken by the DNA people not the police.

The Tsunami testing was done with the cooperation of people who had missing family...in some cases families overseas provided DNA to assist. the matches made with DNA testing wouldnt require secondary testing as the match with family members has a high probability rate. In DNA profiling there are certain points which can link family and even people from the same race group because of genetic backgrounds...this why I made the comment about minority databases are sometimes insufficient because not enough data has been collected on these people....a recent case here in Perth proved that in regard to the Aborigines.

On the criminal side of things you could be in trouble if your brother/sister was a real baddie and your DNA was taken and checked....Even worse if you had a twin....that is why DNA is not enough on its own...there must be other evidence or confession to gain a conviction. DNA testing is a statistical probability...not a fact, but the inference that it gives is very powerful combined with supporting evidence. It is also a useful tool in gaining a confession...."Your DNA matches" most people would confess.

[Siripon]

Still sounds really wierd to me that in this case it only took 1 week to find the so called murderers - but in alot of other cases the parents and loved ones are still waiting years down the line to know what happened to their children. Welcome to the real world Thailand - no more pussy footing around and making up stories. I am sure there are going to be re-opened cases of missing foreigners or raped foreigners etc. which are going to rock the boat a little bit.

No chance, this case only got attention because it was New Year and she was an attractive young woman with a bright future found dead in the sea on a very popular island at the height of the tourist season. The worst possible scenario for TAT. The Englishman murdered in Koh Chang 2 weeks ago received little press, 57 years old, hard to elicit much sympathy.

They've got the culprits, they'll be sentenced to death, confessions will not be considered as mitigating circumstances as the crime is considered too horrific; they'll either be executed or released in the far future.

Taksin will promise better security in tourist areas and that will be that.

[allexx]

Maybe the fishermen were caught with Yaa Baa or Ice and were ready to be sentenced to death or life in prison so maybe they cut a deal and confessed to something they did not do.

….don’t disturb the tourist trade.

My 2 satang

[sierra01]

Katherine's body is now back in the UK, DNA samples can be taken....properly. If there is the slightest doubt that it's a cover up then the UK Govt should ask to take their own DNA samples from the accused. If Thai plod has done a proper job then they would have nothing to fear of another DNA test. Maybe in an ideal world perhaps.

[Boo]

I thought a body had to be embalmed before international flight?

[Johpa]

I have doubts about the DNA evidence as it seems to have been matched far too quickly. Reading the news reports its as if the two men are arrested and then the next day there is a DNA match. Hopefully it is just a misreading of the police statements.

But Thai police, when pressed, can often find perpetrators of crimes due to their, how shall we say, intimate knowledge of the criminal element. This is often the case in crimes against tourists in major tourist areas like Phuket and Chiang Mai where there is a great deal of pressure upon the criminals to leave the tourists alone. Individual Thai police can make great freinds and neighbors. Being a policeman is a secure government job for many Thais. The corruption flows downhill from the top and the local cop on the street if often a pretty nice guy. As an ex-pat, methinks you never have enough Thai policemen who are your friend.

But I do wonder why Thai fisherman are allowed to hang out at tourist venues such as Lamai or Chaweng or anywhere other such locations as it spells only big time trouble. These fisherman are on about the lowest rung of Thai society, and trust me there are plenty of other rungs down low there that most of you seldom see. Substance abuse is endemic. (As a footnote, thet fisherman in the south were one of the primary initial vectors of AIDS in Thailand back in the 1980s when the government was still blaming the impending health crisis on Farangs. The combination of needles and buggery caused the virus to spread rapidly down south amongst the fisherman (AKA Thai pirates) and then made its way to the needle users up north.) These guys live a stressful and violent life. It is a very bad mix when these lads mingle in tourist enclaves. Apart from the Chao Samui who still fish, other fishing boats should probably be banned from making port in Samui.

[LaoPo]

Katherine's body is now back in the UK, DNA samples can be taken....properly. If there is the slightest doubt that it's a cover up then the UK Govt should ask to take their own DNA samples from the accused. If Thai plod has done a proper job then they would have nothing to fear of another DNA test. Maybe in an ideal world perhaps.

Is it possible to (still) take proper DNA samples from her body which could show the DNA of the accused, after such a while....?

LaoPo

[phuketsiam]

but you woul still need DNA samples of the accused to match thm with, where are they going to get them from, the accused are now under lock and key and the MIB won't be very helpful IMO

[Anon999]

but you woul still need DNA samples of the accused to match thm with, where are they going to get them from, the accused are now under lock and key and the MIB won't be very helpful IMO

The BKK laboratory will have the DNA profile of the 2 accused so the results should match those taken in the UK from the deceased.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Anon999

[Lilyflower]

But I do wonder why Thai fisherman are allowed to hang out at tourist venues such as Lamai or Chaweng or anywhere other such locations as it spells only big time trouble.

...and I wonder why tourists are allowed to hang out at fishermen's venues such as Lamai...

[Johpa]

But I do wonder why Thai fisherman are allowed to hang out at tourist venues such as Lamai or Chaweng or anywhere other such locations as it spells only big time trouble.

...and I wonder why tourists are allowed to hang out at fishermen's venues such as Lamai...

A vaild question indeed........20 years ago.

[LaoPo]

but you woul still need DNA samples of the accused to match thm with, where are they going to get them from, the accused are now under lock and key and the MIB won't be very helpful IMO

That's obvious of course; but with some 'pressure' from the UK I don't see why they wouldn't send the DNA samples of the suspects to the UK.

That, however, doesn't answer my previous question.

LaoPo