Thailand News

[sierra01]

A one day trial? It's sounding more and more like a cover up, perhaps the Thai courts work in a way that makes this possible?

[sriracha john]

Thai safety probe before beach killing

British diplomats were reviewing their safety advice for tourists visiting the Thai island of Koh Samui only weeks before British student Katherine Horton was raped and murdered.

Ms Horton, 21, a final-year student at Reading University, was attacked while talking to her mother on her mobile phone on New Year's Day.

Her murder was the fifth on the tiny island in eight weeks and came as British Embassy officials in Bangkok were working on a report into the rising levels of violence and the threat to Britons.

Koh Samui is a favourite destination but an increase in complaints about gang-related violence led to the review.

It is understood that gangsters who control the vice and drugs trade in Pattaya on the Thai mainland have "moved in" on Koh Samui, fuelling a surge in murders, knife attacks and shootings.

Current Foreign Office travel advice to Thailand warns that nine Britons have been murdered in the last 16 months.

[Jai Dee]

COURT HAS APPROVED 12 MORE DAYS FOR POLICE TO HOLD ON TO SUSPECTED KILLERS OF BRITISH TOURIST AT POLICE STATION TO GATHER MORE EVIDENCE

The Suratthani provincial court is allowing a further 12 days holding period at the police station for the 2 alleged killers of British tourist Katherine Horton, in order to gather as much evidence as possible.

Police asked the provincial court yesterday to extend the holding period for the 2 alleged killers in order to wait for forensic results and to have the two men identify the stick they used to beat the victim unconscious. Police are also waiting for 5 witnesses.

The court approved the police's request in order to foster the most extensive set of evidence for use in conviction of the killers. As for the 2 men, they are being monitored around the clock by officials as police fear they may commit suicide.

Police are also planning to build a new police station on Samui Island, as the number of officials deployed on the resort island has proven inadequate.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 12 January 2006

[Insight]

Thailand's top brass speak out again....

Stray dogs led police to alleged killers of Welsh tourist

Published on Jan 12 , 2006

Police investigating the rape and murder of a British tourist at a Thai beach resort said Thursday that stray dogs played a key role in leading them to two Thai fisherman who allegedly committed the crime.

The mother of the victim, 21-year-old Katherine Horton, told policeher daughter had called from a cell phone while walking on a

Koh Samui beach. The mother, Elizabeth Horton, said she heard her daughter scream as dogs barked in the background, and then the line went dead, said police Maj. Santan Chayanont, who heads the police task force investigating the murder.

That information led police to suspect that the attackers were Thai, said Santan. He said that Thais tend to chase away stray dogs away, while Westerners pet and feed them.

"The dogs are friendly with Westerners, but they turn fierce on Thais,''Santan said, adding that four stray dogs were known to live on the particular beach where Horton was last seen. "The barking dogs were the additional clue that helped police narrow down the suspects and focus on Thai men.''

Two Thai fishermen confessed Monday to killing Horton, whose battered body was found the morning of January 2 by a jet skier in the Gulf of Thailand. Police have said DNA tests showed that semen found onHorton's body belonged to the two suspects.

Nice one Mr Clouseau...

[george]

Accused fishermen deny earlier British tourist rape

SURAT THANI: -- Two fishermen charged with raping and murdering a Welsh tourist on the resort island of Koh Samui on New Year's Day denied on Thursday that they had raped another British holidaymaker last year, local police said.

The two trawler crewmen--Bualoy Posit, 23 and Wichai Som Khaoyai, 24-- who were arrested for the rape and murder of Catherine Horton at Lamai beach and dumping her body into the sea, denied that they had earlier raped another British tourist last year, as some police speculated.

Rape victim Tina L Cober, 26 and also from Britain, filed a complaint with police in last October about a sexual assault that allegedly occurred on Koh Samui Island in this southern province while she was on holiday.

Pol. Maj-Gen. Santhan Chayanont, deputy commissioner of Provincial Police Region 8 and head of the investigation team, said that the British Embassy was paying special attention to Ms Cober's case and urged the Thai police to find the culprits for prosecution as soon as possible.

Evidence collected from the rape victim at the time was sent for laboratory testing at the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Bangkok to confirm whether the fishermen were involved in the second crme or not, he said.

Another team of investigators will deal separately with the Ms. Horton's case.

--TNA 2006-01-12

[kat]

You know, I'm really anxious to give the Thai authorities credit at the slightest change, but it's like a start and stop exercise. I'm really glad to hear about the changes they are making on Samui, and among the Fishermen's Association. They want to institute tougher standards and screening mechanisms. That's great, but that should be across the board, not only among Fisherman. This is but 1 case; what about all the unregulated taxis

At any rate, as soon as I feel I can say something good, I read the next article about a 1 day trial and it all goes to hel_l again.

[phuketsiam]

yeah the one day trial is joke, how long did it take that policeman in kanchanaburi to be dealt with, i remeber the case was ajourned for 6 weeks for no real reason,and the whole time the guy was out on bail, why does anyone think this is restoring Thailands reputation, its not, its making it worse, so so sad, for everyone really

[gburns57au]

yeah the one day trial is joke, how long did it take that policeman in kanchanaburi to be dealt with, i remeber the case was ajourned for 6 weeks for no real reason,and the whole time the guy was out on bail, why does anyone think this is restoring Thailands reputation, its not, its making it worse, so so sad, for everyone really

He pleaded not guilty so it had to be investigated and then put to trial....these guys have pleaded guilty.....no trial as such is required....they go to court, enter a plea and be dealt with...how long do you think that will take....????

[gburns57au]

Corruption 201 (2nd Year Course)

The judge will only be presented the printouts of the DNA profiles for all the samples, including the victim.

The judge isn't there in the lab looking over the shoulder of the staff doing the testing and seeing that there was indeed a semen specimen obtained from the victim that produced the 3 profiles reported. All he'll likely have are the printed reports of the "results." The prosecutor may also submit the specimen slides themselves, but unless the judge took the slides and had them tested independently, there's no way for him to know whose DNA is on the slides. You can't see the DNA with just your eyes. They are relying entirely on the "honesty" of the lab staff, the police, and the prosecutor that the DNA profiles submitted as coming from Samples #1, #2, and #3 are precisely those that these people say they are.

If the staff are requested to submit the slide that the semen specimen came from, they could even "whip up a batch" and put it on a slide. In other words, it's possible there never was a semen specimen actually obtained from the victim.

The accused are poor fisherman with public defenders paid for by the State. They don't have the resources to pay for independent verification of the DNA testing and the State sure as heck isn't going to pay for it.

You just dont get it do you ???....you are conjuring up scenarios that are not possible...

Any reports would have to show the mixed semen sample from the victim....the DNA from this sample is not magically separated into 3 profiles.....If they did not have a sample that showed her DNA plus their DNA together then the samples taken from the guys and the victim would have no meaning. They take pure DNA from the victim to match against the mixed sample to show that it was taken from her. The guys samples are taken to show that it matches with the mixed sample containing her DNA...The reports would show that the mixed sample contains the DNA of all 3 people as matched against three pure samples...and what the probability is of the guys contributing to that sample compared to their pure samples.

The government wanted a speedy conclusion to this but they also wanted the right conclusion because if it comes back to bite them on the bum they will look totally foolish. They rushed these guys to Bangkok for the testing and you can be assured that this was given a high priority over any other work the Lab had going at the time.....

But anyway this is all hypothetical....They have pleaded guilty...the DNA confirms the pleas...There will be no trial, There will be a hearing where the pleas will be officially entered and they will be sentenced. My purpose to this line of posts was to show how the testing was done as some members seemed unsure about how the process works.....I hope I have helped some people out with that.

[lou]

I would like to try and clear up the DNA tampering theories.

I am a british lab technician. I work in the fields of Biology, Microbiology and forensic Science.

When a swab is taken from the vagina of a rape victim it is put into a microscope. from here a trained individual can easily see sperm calls and mucus. By isolating and testing these sperm calls you can identify one or more attackers. By isolating skin cells this individual can identify the victim.

(very simple really) Once it is proved that there are x number of DNA donors discovered this can be cross matched with suspects in order to determine exactly who the attackers were. A DNA match will be 100% exact. In theory it is possible to switch DNA samples to falsly identify someone, but this will take alot of engineering. The person that takes the sample will not be the person to isolate the sample. The same is it wont be the same person that takes samples from the accused or the same person that matches the DNA samples. This is because it is a laborious process. Lab workers are generally experts in a very narrow section of this process and will only take part in that section. Quite often samples will be taken to different labs in different stages so as to prevent cross contamination and fraud.

In my english university we teach Thai Nationals this process. The majority of Thai lab workers, scientists and lecturers are sent to england and/or america to learn their trade to a very high standard.

So apart from how difficult it would be to falsify these tests, it would take alot of people being involved and surely one of them would speak out about the injustice.

All of this aside, hasn't anybody really thought this through? Here in england we will shortly hold a coroners inquest into her death, as is english law. Now, the coroner holding the inquest is likely to want yet another post mortem to be carried out. He will also request ALL of the samples taken from the body (not east to fake as the sample from her vagina will have to have her fluids mixed with the accused fluids) along with DNA samples from the accused so that he can have his own tests conducted in a british lab. This would mean that if there has been a cover-up the british labs will find out immediately. Remember we were one of the few countries that helped to develop DNA testing in the first place.

All of this proves to me, as a scientist, that it is virtually impossible for the Thai government to have created this cover-up as quite simply they will be found out very soon. I am sure that the PM doesnt want anymore embarassment to fall onto his country. This embarassment being of the worst kind.

I want everyone to know that although i had to word this post scientificly i fell an enormous amount of compasion for this girl and her family. I am posting to put an end to this speculation in the hope that this case can be closed so that her family may have closure.

I will be in Samui in 2 days time. It will be my 5th trip. I will be more wary than usual, but i plan to enjoy myself. Im sorry this post is so long, but i felt it had to be said.

Louisa x

[gburns57au]

I would like to try and clear up the DNA tampering theories.

I am a british lab technician. I work in the fields of Biology, Microbiology and forensic Science.

When a swab is taken from the vagina of a rape victim it is put into a microscope. from here a trained individual can easily see sperm calls and mucus. By isolating and testing these sperm calls you can identify one or more attackers. By isolating skin cells this individual can identify the victim.

(very simple really) Once it is proved that there are x number of DNA donors discovered this can be cross matched with suspects in order to determine exactly who the attackers were. A DNA match will be 100% exact. In theory it is possible to switch DNA samples to falsly identify someone, but this will take alot of engineering. The person that takes the sample will not be the person to isolate the sample. The same is it wont be the same person that takes samples from the accused or the same person that matches the DNA samples. This is because it is a laborious process. Lab workers are generally experts in a very narrow section of this process and will only take part in that section. Quite often samples will be taken to different labs in different stages so as to prevent cross contamination and fraud.

In my english university we teach Thai Nationals this process. The majority of Thai lab workers, scientists and lecturers are sent to england and/or america to learn their trade to a very high standard.

So apart from how difficult it would be to falsify these tests, it would take alot of people being involved and surely one of them would speak out about the injustice.

All of this aside, hasn't anybody really thought this through? Here in england we will shortly hold a coroners inquest into her death, as is english law. Now, the coroner holding the inquest is likely to want yet another post mortem to be carried out. He will also request ALL of the samples taken from the body (not east to fake as the sample from her vagina will have to have her fluids mixed with the accused fluids) along with DNA samples from the accused so that he can have his own tests conducted in a british lab. This would mean that if there has been a cover-up the british labs will find out immediately. Remember we were one of the few countries that helped to develop DNA testing in the first place.

All of this proves to me, as a scientist, that it is virtually impossible for the Thai government to have created this cover-up as quite simply they will be found out very soon. I am sure that the PM doesnt want anymore embarassment to fall onto his country. This embarassment being of the worst kind.

I want everyone to know that although i had to word this post scientificly i fell an enormous amount of compasion for this girl and her family. I am posting to put an end to this speculation in the hope that this case can be closed so that her family may have closure.

I will be in Samui in 2 days time. It will be my 5th trip. I will be more wary than usual, but i plan to enjoy myself. Im sorry this post is so long, but i felt it had to be said.

Louisa x

Thanks for the informative post Louisa.....just one point I would disagree with and that is the 100% match....my own experience of it is, that results are only probable statistics....ie; 1:2,000,000 , 1:680,000 according to the size of the database available to the testers...Of course these results are very high probability, But not total and 100%....Having said that with such a large population in Thailand the results may well be in the range of 1:20,000,000.....so in a country of 60+ Million there would be possibly 7 other males who may have contributed...and they had to be in Samui at that time...so while not 100% conclusive...the inference is undeniable and undefendable.

[sriracha john]

I would like to try and clear up the DNA tampering theories.

I am a british lab technician. I work in the fields of Biology, Microbiology and forensic Science.

When a swab is taken from the vagina of a rape victim it is put into a microscope. from here a trained individual can easily see sperm calls and mucus. By isolating and testing these sperm calls you can identify one or more attackers. By isolating skin cells this individual can identify the victim.

(very simple really) Once it is proved that there are x number of DNA donors discovered this can be cross matched with suspects in order to determine exactly who the attackers were. A DNA match will be 100% exact. In theory it is possible to switch DNA samples to falsly identify someone, but this will take alot of engineering. The person that takes the sample will not be the person to isolate the sample. The same is it wont be the same person that takes samples from the accused or the same person that matches the DNA samples. This is because it is a laborious process. Lab workers are generally experts in a very narrow section of this process and will only take part in that section. Quite often samples will be taken to different labs in different stages so as to prevent cross contamination and fraud.

In my english university we teach Thai Nationals this process. The majority of Thai lab workers, scientists and lecturers are sent to england and/or america to learn their trade to a very high standard.

So apart from how difficult it would be to falsify these tests, it would take alot of people being involved and surely one of them would speak out about the injustice.

All of this aside, hasn't anybody really thought this through? Here in england we will shortly hold a coroners inquest into her death, as is english law. Now, the coroner holding the inquest is likely to want yet another post mortem to be carried out. He will also request ALL of the samples taken from the body (not east to fake as the sample from her vagina will have to have her fluids mixed with the accused fluids) along with DNA samples from the accused so that he can have his own tests conducted in a british lab. This would mean that if there has been a cover-up the british labs will find out immediately. Remember we were one of the few countries that helped to develop DNA testing in the first place.

All of this proves to me, as a scientist, that it is virtually impossible for the Thai government to have created this cover-up as quite simply they will be found out very soon. I am sure that the PM doesnt want anymore embarassment to fall onto his country. This embarassment being of the worst kind.

I want everyone to know that although i had to word this post scientificly i fell an enormous amount of compasion for this girl and her family. I am posting to put an end to this speculation in the hope that this case can be closed so that her family may have closure.

I will be in Samui in 2 days time. It will be my 5th trip. I will be more wary than usual, but i plan to enjoy myself. Im sorry this post is so long, but i felt it had to be said.

Louisa x

Thanks for the informative post Louisa.....just one point I would disagree with and that is the 100% match....my own experience of it is, that results are only probable statistics....ie; 1:2,000,000 , 1:680,000 according to the size of the database available to the testers...Of course these results are very high probability, But not total and 100%....Having said that with such a large population in Thailand the results may well be in the range of 1:20,000,000.....so in a country of 60+ Million there would be possibly 7 other males who may have contributed...and they had to be in Samui at that time...so while not 100% conclusive...the inference is undeniable and undefendable.

and thank you for confirming it is indeed possible to bend and/or fake all the associated sampling and documentation from DNA testing.

Has the same type of skullduggery occured previously in the Thai judicial system? Absolutely

Have huge cover-ups, evidence tampering, and frame-ups occured previously here? Definitely

Has it occured in this particular case? We don't know. Hopefully we will find out the definitive answer soon.

-----------------------------------------------

The defendents lawyer was quoted as saying today that, "there is a 500 million to 1 chance that they are not guilty."

Hmmm..... with a defender like that, who needs a prosecutor??

Edited January 12, 2006 by sriracha john

[LaoPo]

I would like to try and clear up the DNA tampering theories.

I am a british lab technician. I work in the fields of Biology, Microbiology and forensic Science.

When a swab is taken from the vagina of a rape victim it is put into a microscope. from here a trained individual can easily see sperm calls and mucus. By isolating and testing these sperm calls you can identify one or more attackers. By isolating skin cells this individual can identify the victim.

(very simple really) Once it is proved that there are x number of DNA donors discovered this can be cross matched with suspects in order to determine exactly who the attackers were. A DNA match will be 100% exact. In theory it is possible to switch DNA samples to falsly identify someone, but this will take alot of engineering. The person that takes the sample will not be the person to isolate the sample. The same is it wont be the same person that takes samples from the accused or the same person that matches the DNA samples. This is because it is a laborious process. Lab workers are generally experts in a very narrow section of this process and will only take part in that section. Quite often samples will be taken to different labs in different stages so as to prevent cross contamination and fraud.

In my english university we teach Thai Nationals this process. The majority of Thai lab workers, scientists and lecturers are sent to england and/or america to learn their trade to a very high standard.

So apart from how difficult it would be to falsify these tests, it would take alot of people being involved and surely one of them would speak out about the injustice.

All of this aside, hasn't anybody really thought this through? Here in england we will shortly hold a coroners inquest into her death, as is english law. Now, the coroner holding the inquest is likely to want yet another post mortem to be carried out. He will also request ALL of the samples taken from the body (not east to fake as the sample from her vagina will have to have her fluids mixed with the accused fluids) along with DNA samples from the accused so that he can have his own tests conducted in a british lab. This would mean that if there has been a cover-up the british labs will find out immediately. Remember we were one of the few countries that helped to develop DNA testing in the first place.

All of this proves to me, as a scientist, that it is virtually impossible for the Thai government to have created this cover-up as quite simply they will be found out very soon. I am sure that the PM doesnt want anymore embarassment to fall onto his country. This embarassment being of the worst kind.

I want everyone to know that although i had to word this post scientificly i fell an enormous amount of compasion for this girl and her family. I am posting to put an end to this speculation in the hope that this case can be closed so that her family may have closure.

I will be in Samui in 2 days time. It will be my 5th trip. I will be more wary than usual, but i plan to enjoy myself. Im sorry this post is so long, but i felt it had to be said.

Louisa x

Thanks for the informative post Louisa.....just one point I would disagree with and that is the 100% match....my own experience of it is, that results are only probable statistics....ie; 1:2,000,000 , 1:680,000 according to the size of the database available to the testers...Of course these results are very high probability, But not total and 100%....Having said that with such a large population in Thailand the results may well be in the range of 1:20,000,000.....so in a country of 60+ Million there would be possibly 7 other males who may have contributed...and they had to be in Samui at that time...so while not 100% conclusive...the inference is undeniable and undefendable.

and thank you for confirming it is indeed possible to bend and/or fake all the associated sampling and documentation from DNA testing.

SORRY SJ, but the above comment it totally 'teared-out' of the context of the comments of Louisa and I think that's VERY unfair, because of:

THIS:In theory it is possible to switch DNA samples to falsly identify someone, but this will take alot of engineering.

THIS: So apart from how difficult it would be to falsify these tests, it would take alot of people being involved and surely one of them would speak out about the injustice.

THIS: All of this aside, hasn't anybody really thought this through? Here in england we will shortly hold a coroners inquest into her death, as is english law............This would mean that if there has been a cover-up the british labs will find out immediately.

THIS: All of this proves to me, as a scientist, that it is virtually impossible for the Thai government to have created this cover-up as quite simply they will be found out very soon

Has the same type of skullduggery occured previously in the Thai judicial system? Absolutely

Have huge cover-ups, evidence tampering, and frame-ups occured previously here? Definitely

YES, maybe so. But this crime, as stated by Louisa, will be controlled by both Thailand and in England/WalesHas it occured in this particular case? We don't know. Hopefully we will find out the definitive answer soon.

-----------------------------------------------

The defendents lawyer was quoted as saying today that, "there is a 500 million to 1 chance that they are not guilty."

Hmmm..... with a defender like that, who needs a prosecutor??

AGREE!

Louisa: thank you for your clear comments! Have a nice holiday and...take care!

SJ: see my comments above.

LaoPo

Edited January 12, 2006 by LaoPo

[gburns57au]

and thank you for confirming it is indeed possible to bend and/or fake all the associated sampling and documentation from DNA testing.

Has the same type of skullduggery occured previously in the Thai judicial system? Absolutely

Have huge cover-ups, evidence tampering, and frame-ups occured previously here? Definitely

Has it occured in this particular case? We don't know. Hopefully we will find out the definitive answer soon.

-----------------------------------------------

The defendents lawyer was quoted as saying today that, "there is a 500 million to 1 chance that they are not guilty."

Hmmm..... with a defender like that, who needs a prosecutor??

What Louisa said is that theoretically it is possible, but it would be virtually impossible to tamper with or provide fake samples...pretty much the same as I said. So lets put it this way.....it is theoretically possible that the Earth could go out of orbit and collide with Mars.....the chances of this happening are very remote, and so it is with DNA testing.

Sure the Thai Judicial system has had its fair share of corruption etc...much the same as any Judicial system in the world. I am sure that the Judicial system in most countries have had their share of evidence tampering and cover ups.

Just a technical note here.....These guys have lawyers not defenders and they are not defendants but accused....as they have now pleaded guilty to all charges there is no defence possible unless a change of plea occurs. The early pleas will have an effect in mitigation, but the question now is, will it save them from the death sentence???

[sriracha john]

I would like to try and clear up the DNA tampering theories.

I am a british lab technician. I work in the fields of Biology, Microbiology and forensic Science.

When a swab is taken from the vagina of a rape victim it is put into a microscope. from here a trained individual can easily see sperm calls and mucus. By isolating and testing these sperm calls you can identify one or more attackers. By isolating skin cells this individual can identify the victim.

(very simple really) Once it is proved that there are x number of DNA donors discovered this can be cross matched with suspects in order to determine exactly who the attackers were. A DNA match will be 100% exact. In theory it is possible to switch DNA samples to falsly identify someone, but this will take alot of engineering. The person that takes the sample will not be the person to isolate the sample. The same is it wont be the same person that takes samples from the accused or the same person that matches the DNA samples. This is because it is a laborious process. Lab workers are generally experts in a very narrow section of this process and will only take part in that section. Quite often samples will be taken to different labs in different stages so as to prevent cross contamination and fraud.

In my english university we teach Thai Nationals this process. The majority of Thai lab workers, scientists and lecturers are sent to england and/or america to learn their trade to a very high standard.

So apart from how difficult it would be to falsify these tests, it would take alot of people being involved and surely one of them would speak out about the injustice.

All of this aside, hasn't anybody really thought this through? Here in england we will shortly hold a coroners inquest into her death, as is english law. Now, the coroner holding the inquest is likely to want yet another post mortem to be carried out. He will also request ALL of the samples taken from the body (not east to fake as the sample from her vagina will have to have her fluids mixed with the accused fluids) along with DNA samples from the accused so that he can have his own tests conducted in a british lab. This would mean that if there has been a cover-up the british labs will find out immediately. Remember we were one of the few countries that helped to develop DNA testing in the first place.

All of this proves to me, as a scientist, that it is virtually impossible for the Thai government to have created this cover-up as quite simply they will be found out very soon. I am sure that the PM doesnt want anymore embarassment to fall onto his country. This embarassment being of the worst kind.

I want everyone to know that although i had to word this post scientificly i fell an enormous amount of compasion for this girl and her family. I am posting to put an end to this speculation in the hope that this case can be closed so that her family may have closure.

I will be in Samui in 2 days time. It will be my 5th trip. I will be more wary than usual, but i plan to enjoy myself. Im sorry this post is so long, but i felt it had to be said.

Louisa x

Thanks for the informative post Louisa.....just one point I would disagree with and that is the 100% match....my own experience of it is, that results are only probable statistics....ie; 1:2,000,000 , 1:680,000 according to the size of the database available to the testers...Of course these results are very high probability, But not total and 100%....Having said that with such a large population in Thailand the results may well be in the range of 1:20,000,000.....so in a country of 60+ Million there would be possibly 7 other males who may have contributed...and they had to be in Samui at that time...so while not 100% conclusive...the inference is undeniable and undefendable.

and thank you for confirming it is indeed possible to bend and/or fake all the associated sampling and documentation from DNA testing.

SORRY SJ, but the above comment it totally 'teared-out' of the context of the comments of Louisa and I think that's VERY unfair, because of:

not so unfair, let alone "VERY unfair".... it's either possible or it's not possible to fudge the work on all of this ... and it IS possible

THIS:In theory it is possible to switch DNA samples to falsly identify someone, but this will take alot of engineering.

and if the State controls all the steps?.... they are the engineering.

THIS: So apart from how difficult it would be to falsify these tests, it would take alot of people being involved and surely one of them would speak out about the injustice.

speak out against an injustice?? in Thailand??.. hmm... It's very, very, very possible that that DOESN'T occur in something the entire government from the PM on down is very keen to resolve quickly.

THIS: All of this aside, hasn't anybody really thought this through? Here in england we will shortly hold a coroners inquest into her death, as is english law............This would mean that if there has been a cover-up the british labs will find out immediately.

That IS our hope to really find the truth... and perhaps one aspect that the conspirators (IF there is a conspiracy) didn't really think all the way through

THIS: All of this proves to me, as a scientist, that it is virtually impossible for the Thai government to have created this cover-up as quite simply they will be found out very soon

1. As previously noted, they may get caught out as they didn't think ahead that an outside agency would re-verify all their work.

2. As in the case about the lies about bird flu denial, they don't always necessarily care if they ARE found out.

3. Any inquest in the UK will still require full cooperation from the Thai side regarding accused's specimens, etc.

Has the same type of skullduggery occured previously in the Thai judicial system? Absolutely

Have huge cover-ups, evidence tampering, and frame-ups occured previously here? Definitely

YES, maybe so. But this crime, as stated by Louisa, will be controlled by both Thailand and in England/WalesHas it occured in this particular case? We don't know. Hopefully we will find out the definitive answer soon.

-----------------------------------------------

The defendents lawyer was quoted as saying today that, "there is a 500 million to 1 chance that they are not guilty."

Hmmm..... with a defender like that, who needs a prosecutor??

AGREE!

Louisa: thank you for your clear comments! Have a nice holiday and...take care!

SJ: see my comments above.

LaoPo

noted and replied above...

btw, love the new quoting features of TV.....

[LaoPo]

I rest in silence.

Hope justice will be done.

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

and thank you for confirming it is indeed possible to bend and/or fake all the associated sampling and documentation from DNA testing.

Has the same type of skullduggery occured previously in the Thai judicial system? Absolutely

Have huge cover-ups, evidence tampering, and frame-ups occured previously here? Definitely

Has it occured in this particular case? We don't know. Hopefully we will find out the definitive answer soon.

-----------------------------------------------

The defendents lawyer was quoted as saying today that, "there is a 500 million to 1 chance that they are not guilty."

Hmmm..... with a defender like that, who needs a prosecutor??

What Louisa said is that theoretically it is possible, but it would be virtually impossible to tamper with or provide fake samples...pretty much the same as I said. So lets put it this way.....it is theoretically possible that the Earth could go out of orbit and collide with Mars.....the chances of this happening are very remote, and so it is with DNA testing.

IF this was the UK or Australia or USA, etc. I would agree... The odds of corruption occuring in a court case in Thailand are infinitely higher then your other scenario.

Sure the Thai Judicial system has had its fair share of corruption etc...much the same as any Judicial system in the world. I am sure that the Judicial system in most countries have had their share of evidence tampering and cover ups.

The porportion of shady happenings in court cases here is VERY much higher than many, many countries. To state otherwise elevates the level of fairness in the judicial system here to a point that is undeserved and erroneous. Case in point, Kanchanaburi murderer... flees the country...subsequently confesses and THEN is given bail??? Would that happen in Australia?

I think we all want the same thing and that is that justice be done...

Far too many cases here are not, hence the skepticism based upon the reality of the system here... but it doesn't change my hope that justice WILL be done.

[gburns57au]

What Louisa said is that theoretically it is possible, but it would be virtually impossible to tamper with or provide fake samples...pretty much the same as I said. So lets put it this way.....it is theoretically possible that the Earth could go out of orbit and collide with Mars.....the chances of this happening are very remote, and so it is with DNA testing.

IF this was the UK or Australia or USA, etc. I would agree... The odds of corruption occuring in a court case in Thailand are infinitely higher then your other scenario.

Sure the Thai Judicial system has had its fair share of corruption etc...much the same as any Judicial system in the world. I am sure that the Judicial system in most countries have had their share of evidence tampering and cover ups.

The porportion of shady happenings in court cases here is VERY much higher than many, many countries. To state otherwise elevates the level of fairness in the judicial system here to a point that is undeserved and erroneous. Case in point, Kanchanaburi murderer... flees the country...subsequently confesses and THEN is given bail??? Would that happen in Australia?

I think we all want the same thing and that is that justice be done...

Far too many cases here are not, hence the skepticism based upon the reality of the system here... but it doesn't change my hope that justice WILL be done.

My scenario of Earth and Mars was in relation to DNA testing only....not corruption in the legal system.

Yes it does happen in Australia and other countries too....I have seen accused murderers get bail on many occasions. The Policeman in your case point did confess to killing but not to murder...that is why he was given bail....if he had confessed to murder he would not have got bail. He did not plead as charged but to a lesser offence, therefore he was pleading not guilty as to the charges laid. This means he intended to defend the charges and therefore was considered for bail...the same would happen here dependent upon the circumstances.

We all want to see justice done....this was a horrific case....as stated, the Thai goverment cannot afford to make mistakes in this case....it has to be seen to be squeaky clean....They wont make mistakes with this one....they cant afford to.

[Lisa28]

This was in our newspaper today.....

TWO Thai fishermen arrested for the rape and premeditated murder of a British tourist earlier this month on the southern resort island of Koh Samui pleaded guilty on both counts yesterday when charged in court.

Bualoi Posit, 23, and Wichai Somkhaoyai, 24, were charged by police with carrying out a brutal New Year's Day attack on Katherine Horton, a 21-year-old student from Wales, whose body was found floating in the Gulf of Thailand on January 2.

The two men nodded in turn when asked by a judge on the provincial court of Surat Thani, 520km southwest of Bangkok, whether they were guilty of the charges.

Wichai's lawyer, Promphatchara Namuang, confirmed that both men pleaded guilty, and said that a hearing to determine their punishment would begin today and probably last just one day.

The murder charge carries a maximum sentence of death. However, Thai courts usually reduce such sentences to life imprisonment or less in cases where defendants plead guilty.

Yesterday, a memorial service was held for Horton near the spot where she was killed. Buddhist monks chanted prayers for her spirit, and friends read poems in her honour.

[Johpa]

I know I am a bit late with this but I just want to say that this case has touched me as much as a lot of you out there. What I find particularly disturbing are comments from people like JOHPA about fishermen hanging out on Lamai Beach. Do you have a brain man? This is their patch. Fishermen you know. It was their beach before.

My husband was a fisherman until five years ago.

I am totally gutted about Katherine's death...... but don't have a go a fishermen please. It might well have been two drunk or stupid fishermen who committed this awful crime. But leave out generalisations.

Seonai

Yo Dude, Lamai, as well as Chaweng, have really never been on the fisherman's path. Both beaches are windward, are shallow, have never had fishing boat docking facilities, nor had shops to resupply fisherman. You want ports on Samui for fisherman you need to go to Nathon or Bophut. Chaweng and Lamai beaches are scarcely recognizable as being Thai: they are Farang tourist ghettos.

Sure, it would be really nice to turn back the clock a few decades, have local fisherman stopping by with their daily catch and having dinner at Ampun's legendary Montian's Restaurant with a fish bigger than the plate for all of 30 baat or go down to Munchies in the afternoon for a Magic Mushroom omelets in case the ice cream man did not show up with his herb supply, and be spending 20 baat a night for a romantic palm leaf roof bungalow where you could look up through the fronds and see the stars. But even back then boats from the mainland would not often be found on these beaches of the Chao Samui as it was their turf so to speak. Heck, just trying to find members of the old Chaweng and Lamai families in the beach area is a venture these days.

Thai fishermen are a tough group. And I am not talking tough because they work hard like fisherman up in Alaska. These are the "Thai pirates." They do have a very, very high rate of substance abuse. Yea, sure, you can meet some nice guys who are fisherman, usually local boat owners and their local crews. But having non-local fisherman from the mainland anchoring outside Lamai or Chaweng when there is not now, nor has there been in the past, any reason for them to be there, is just asking for trouble. Most municipalities around the world keep the addicts away from the tourists. Chaweng and Lamai should be no exception. It has never been "their patch."

[Jai Dee]

RESIDENTS OF SAMUI ISLAND ORGANIZED MERIT-MAKING CEREMONIES, DEDICATED TO THE BRITISH STUDENT

Entrepreneurs and residents of Samui Island organized merit-making ceremonies, dedicated to the British student, who was raped and murdered.

Owner of the Pavillian Hotel on Lamai (ละไม) beach, Wirat Pongchababnapa (วิรัช พงษ์ฉบับนภา) said that the entrepreneurs in Samui Island would join the people to organize a merit-making ceremony for Katherine Elizabeth Horton, a British student who was raped and murdered on the island. The ceremonies were held on the crime scene on Tong Krok (ท้องครก) beach.

Mr. Wirat said that the hotel will provide free accommodation and food for the victim’s family members for a week if they want to travel to the island.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 13 January 2006

[Wes Turner]

"Mr. Wirat said that the hotel will provide free accommodation and food for the victim’s family members for a week if they want to travel to the island."

That is a kind gesture, but would the family be likely to choose Ko Samui, or even Thailand as their next holiday destination? I doubt it.

There are still a couple of policemen outside New Hut on either side of the road... Not quite sure what they are there for at this late stage.

The two rapists are to be shot sometime in the next month.

They were not from Samui and were horny fishermen that had come to look for sex VCD's and tragically, found Katherine instead.

[sriracha john]

Trial begins

BANGKOK : Two Thai fishermen pleaded guilty to the rape and murder of a 21-year-old Welsh tourist, as their trial began in southern Thailand, court officials said.

The unusually swift judicial proceedings began just 12 days after Katherine Horton was killed on the resort island of Samui, and only four days after the two suspects were arrested.

The body of the 21-year-old psychology student, who was in Thailand on a backpacking break with a friend, was found floating in Lamai Bay on January 2.

Prosecutors planned to bring 11 witnesses to testify Friday, Surat Thani provincial court clerk Viroj Kittipongsakorn said by telephone.

"The court hearing today is merely to follow up the suspects' guilty pleas, since they have confessed since the beginning," he said.

Police say that DNA evidence links Bualoy Kothisit, 23, and Wichai Sonkhaoyai, 24, to the rape and murder of Horton, and that both men confessed that they committed the crime after a drinking binge on New Year's Day.

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has called for their execution if they are convicted, and pressured police and prosecutors to bring the case to a speedy close.

Most criminal cases in Thailand take years to reach completion, but Viroj said a verdict could come within days and if guilty, the men could be executed in days or face life imprisonment.

[Lilyflower]

I know I am a bit late with this but I just want to say that this case has touched me as much as a lot of you out there. What I find particularly disturbing are comments from people like JOHPA about fishermen hanging out on Lamai Beach. Seonai

Yo Dude, Lamai, as well as Chaweng, have really never been on the fisherman's path. Both beaches are windward, are shallow, have never had fishing boat docking facilities, nor had shops to resupply fisherman. You want ports on Samui for fisherman you need to go to Nathon or Bophut. Chaweng and Lamai beaches are scarcely recognizable as being Thai: they are Farang tourist ghettos.

Thai fishermen are a tough group. And I am not talking tough because they work hard like fisherman up in Alaska. These are the "Thai pirates." They do have a very, very high rate of substance abuse. Yea, sure, you can meet some nice guys who are fisherman, usually local boat owners and their local crews. But having non-local fisherman from the mainland anchoring outside Lamai or Chaweng when there is not now, nor has there been in the past, any reason for them to be there, is just asking for trouble. Most municipalities around the world keep the addicts away from the tourists. Chaweng and Lamai should be no exception. It has never been "their patch."

i don't know anything about boats moored off the mainland... and i don't know about lamai beach longer ago than about 3-4 years. but at one end of the beach (the buddy bar end) there is a little makeshift harbour and has been during the years i've been going there. i think the fisherman are local - in any event, they're pretty established and the ones i've come across are very pleasant... just getting on with their lives like everyone else.

i'm just trying to emphasise that there are nice guys, who are fisherman, who've been located on lamai beach for years...

[John 1]

I would say Johpa must be wearing blinkers, as Thai fishing trawlers have been laying anchor offshore of Chaweng Noi and the Cliff area on the way to Lamia for years not all the time just for some R&R.

[sierra01]

"Mr. Wirat said that the hotel will provide free accommodation and food for the victim’s family members for a week if they want to travel to the island."

That is a kind gesture, but would the family be likely to choose Ko Samui, or even Thailand as their next holiday destination? I doubt it.

There are still a couple of policemen outside New Hut on either side of the road... Not quite sure what they are there for at this late stage.

The two rapists are to be shot sometime in the next month.

They were not from Samui and were horny fishermen that had come to look for sex VCD's and tragically, found Katherine instead.

I don't think the idea is to invite them for a holiday, it's for the merit making ceremonies. Having had my daughter murdered on Samui, I don't think I would ever go back there, free hotel or not.

[Patsycat]

Sorry to hear that Sierra01, this whole thing must bring back bad and sad memories.

I agree that if anything like this happened to me or mine I would never take up the offer of a "free holiday" to the place.

Or did i get that wrong - you were referring to Katherine's family...

[sierra01]

I didn't word that very well, sorry Patsycat. I was referring to the parents of Katherine.

[sriracha john]

Verdict on Horton case scheduled next week

Published on Jan 13 , 2006

A judge on the rape and murder of a 21-year-old Welsh student said he would deliver a verdict next week after two suspects pledged guilty.

After hearing Friday's eight witnesses, Judge Chamnong Sutchaimai said testimony in the trial had been concluded, and that he would render a verdict next Wednesday. No witnesses were presented by the defence.

The suspects entered the court room in shackles and jail uniforms as the unusually swift judicial proceedings began just 12 days after Katherine Horton was killed on the resort island of Samui, and four days after their arrest.

Tawatchai Seangchaew, a prosecutor in Surat Thani, said the court granted special attention to this case because the gruesome crime had received so much media attention.

In contrast, police have yet to file charges against three men accused of murdering 57 year-old British tourist James Edward Hall, who was found dead on Christmas Day in a bungalow on Koh Chang.

=============================================

Concerns raised over fairness of trial

Jan 13 2006

As two Thai fishermen face sentence for the murder of backpacker Katherine Horton, deep concerns were raised last night about the fairness of their trial.

Director of Fair Trials Abroad Stephen Jakobi described as "worrying" the way in which the case had been conducted so far.

His concerns included:

The pronouncement by Thai prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra that if found guilty the men should be executed, a claim supported by the trial's defence lawyer.

The short length of time the defence team has had to prepare their case.

Mr Jakobi said, "It may be as open and shut as they say but the way they are going about it leaves questions.

"We would all be happier with a proper trial to make sure the proper people are being charged with the right things.

"It cannot be satisfying to the girl's family to have a situation where people are saying, 'Well I hope they did do it' rather than one where it is quite clear that they did.

"A fair trial demands that evidence is produced beforehand and is examined before the trial is over. But you don't get fair trials in that part of the world. This one is being fed by public opinion and genuine local grievance and the fear of its effect on the tourist trade."

Police in Thailand have said that the process of filing the case normally takes a few months - with a trial lasting about a year.

Freelance journalist Andrew Drummond, who has spent 20 years covering criminal cases in Thailand, said he had never heard of a trial being pushed through so quickly.

He said, "From talking to lawyers it seems they can legally rush a trial through if they choose to do so.

"But from anyone's point of view it's very rushed. The two defendants haven't had proper access to a lawyer until the last 24 hours and it seems because they've confessed, there's no intention of fighting the case. There's been no time to put forward a plea to contest the death penalty.

"It's very much a matter of national image. There is a perception that if they sentence them quickly people will think better of Thailand, but I don't think that's the reaction that they will get."

He's right.

Edited January 13, 2006 by sriracha john

[george]

Men face sentence for Thai murder

KOH SAMUI: -- Two fishermen are awaiting sentence for the rape and murder of British student Katherine Horton following their trial in Thailand on Friday.

A court heard how Miss Horton, 21, from Cardiff, was beaten with a parasol pole and later dragged out to sea off Koh Samui where she drowned.

Wichai Somkhaoyai, 24 and Bualoi Posit, 23, admitted rape and conspiracy to kill at the court in Surat Thani.

The case has been adjourned until next Wednesday when the men face sentencing.

The fishermen will return to court where the judge will decide whether to pass the maximum sentence of death.

The one-day trial on Friday was told that the men had been watching pornographic films on their boat on the evening of 1 January.

They then swam ashore using plastic petrol cans as buoyancy and attacked Miss Horton on the beach as she talked to her mother on her mobile phone.

The men hit her about the head and shoulders with a parasol pole and took turns to rape her while the other held her down, the trial heard.

After that they dragged her out to sea to a boat and used that to tow her further out, where the Reading University student drowned.

The court heard that a British tourist, Christopher Burrows, who later found Miss Horton's mobile phone on the beach, heard a faint voice calling out in English: "I'm sinking, I'm sinking."

The discovery of the mobile phone on the beach led police to investigate fishing boats moored offshore, the trial was told.

Thai officers boarded the boats posing as fish traders, before telling those on board DNA tests would be carried out.

The court was told it was at this point the two men on trial admitted they carried out the murder.

The attack took place at 2100 local time on New Year's Day, close to where Miss Horton was staying on Lamai Beach, on the island of Koh Samui.

Her body was washed up the next morning on a remote beach a few kilometres away where it was found by a water biker.

The trial on Friday heard from eight witnesses, including police officers, forensic doctors and fishermen.

The fishermen did not address the court directly, but confirmed their earlier statements admitting guilt.

Memorial blessing

Thailand's prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has declared that the men should face the maximum penalty because of damage done to the country's image.

The provisional court of Surat Thani is around 330 miles (520 kilometres) south west of the capital Bangkok.

Miss Horton had travelled to Thailand with a university friend for a two-week holiday.

She had been on Lamai beach with a group of friends on 1 January, close to the bungalows they had rented, when she is said to have wandered away to speak to her mother on her mobile phone.

Her body was discovered some 12 hours later.

Miss Horton's funeral will take place on Tuesday at St Isan's Church, in Llanishen, Cardiff, followed by private cremation.

Meanwhile, a service of prayer for Miss Horton took place on Thursday at Reading University where she was a psychology undergraduate.

A Buddhist memorial blessing in Miss Horton's memory was held on Thursday on Lamai beach by the people of Koh Samui.

--BBC 2006-01-013