One Of My Staff Being Chased By Debt Collectors?

[flannelmike]

I've been running a restaurant for about a year and this week, one of my senior staff members has taken the week off to visit family. In her absence, we received a letter from a company called JMT Network Services, apparently because they are collecting on a debt (5-figures) she incurred with Aeon. The thing is, while the letter is addressed to her, it's under my company's name at my company's business address.

• How can we find out if this is legit? A Thai friend of mine said that there is a common scam where people get official-looking letters claiming that money is owed. Some research on the net seems to say that these guys really are debt collectors.
  
• Is there some way we can find out the details of what's happened? I want to know exactly what's going on before confronting my staff member.
  
• Either she's taken out the debt in the company's name (which is out-and-out fraud) but if it's in her name, is there any way my company can become liable for the debt, or other penalties? My guess is that she's taken it out in her name but given my company's mailing address so that she do a runner, if necessary.
  
• She's permanent, full-time staff (one of the 4 I have for a work permit) but been working for me for less than a year. Will there be any legal issues or liabilities if I fire her?
  

[TommoPhysicist]

In the UK it's against the law to open other people's mail, no matter where it is delivered.

Let's hope Thailand doesn't have the same law.

When I get letters addressed to other people at my home in Thailand, I just cross out the address and put them back in the post box,

[robblok]

In the UK it's against the law to open other people's mail, no matter where it is delivered.

Let's hope Thailand doesn't have the same law.

When I get letters addressed to other people at my home in Thailand, I just cross out the address and put them back in the post box,

Did you not read good, it was addressed to the company with the companies name and the staff's name. If there was no companies name there the OP would not worry at all.

[arkom]

Sometimes I have my personal credit card statements and such mailed to my work.

It is addressed to me but also has company name and address as a mailing address only.

It could very well be her own personal mail and has nothing to do with the company.

[Spoonman]

Sometimes I have my personal credit card statements and such mailed to my work.

Sometimes ?

Do you keep changing your mailing address ?

[Soutpeel]

"Either she's taken out the debt in the company's name (which is out-and-out fraud) but if it's in her name, is there any way my company can become liable for the debt, or other"

Unless she is a company singatory (a legal officer of the company) she cant take any debt out in the name of the company, so is she a singatory ?....if yes then the company could be liable for the debt, even if done "fraudently".....if not a company signatory then no company is not liable.

If this is a personal debt situation and say she has used the cmpany name as her postal address, you have absolutely no right to pry into this matter...nothing to do with you

[flannelmike]

The mailing details are in tiny Thai, embedded deep in a mess of other guff. I had to look really hard to find it. But as robblok pointed out, it was addressed to the company and so therefore I have a right to open it.

@arkom: What legitimate reason would there be to have personal mail sent to work? Apart from the fact that your employer would have the right to read it, it's not work related, it's personal! If it has nothing to do with the company, then why send it to the company address?!

But to get back OT, rather than discussing whether or not it's OK to have personal mail sent to your place of work, does anyone have suggesstions for the questions I asked?

[flannelmike]

"Either she's taken out the debt in the company's name (which is out-and-out fraud) but if it's in her name, is there any way my company can become liable for the debt, or other" Unless she is a company singatory (a legal officer of the company) she cant take any debt out in the name of the company, so is she a singatory ?....if yes then the company could be liable for the debt, even if done "fraudently".....if not a company signatory then no company is not liable.

No she's not but the company seal is fairly easy to copy and I wouldn't put it past her. If this is what's happened, it's very possible the debt collectors would come after us and say it's our problem to sue her for fraud.

If this is a personal debt situation and say she has used the cmpany name as her postal address, you have absolutely no right to pry into this matter...nothing to do with you

I have to strongly disagree with you here. The debt has been sent for collection, so shes already missed payments. So she's used my company's name to defraud Aeon. I have a serious problem with this.

If you take out a loan, what *legitimate* reason would someone have not to use there own home address? What *legitimate* reason would someone have to use their work address? This is exactly why you don't have personal mail sent to your place of work, it blurs the boundaries!

[Mosha]

In the UK it's against the law to open other people's mail, no matter where it is delivered.

Let's hope Thailand doesn't have the same law.

When I get letters addressed to other people at my home in Thailand, I just cross out the address and put them back in the post box,

When I recieved letters posted to my home. (Wrong name, right address) I always opened them, as I never bothered to read the front of the envelope. Why should I? I just presume it's to me.

[robblok]

Anyone who has ever worked at an office knows that often something is send to the office and under the office is the personal name of the person at the office its adressed too. In general that is office mail and send straight at the right person in the office.

The manager has of course every right to open it, and i would certainly do so if that person was on a holiday. It might be important for the company that it is picked up right away.

[h90]

If the amount of money is bigger hire a lawer. If she let the company guarantee for her (easy enough to do) than fire her.

[edwinclapham]

Anyone who has ever worked at an office knows that often something is send to the office and under the office is the personal name of the person at the office its adressed too. In general that is office mail and send straight at the right person in the office.

The manager has of course every right to open it, and i would certainly do so if that person was on a holiday. It might be important for the company that it is picked up right away.

And I totally agree with you Rob!

"The thing is, while the letter is addressed to her, it's under my company's name at my company's business address.

Tommo, whether I be in the UK, Thailand or Afghanistan noone has the right to use my address or business address without my permission and therefore I have the right to inspect all incoming mail.

OP I would be seeking legal advice, one swift letter from a lawyer could alleviate many problems.

[TommoPhysicist]

@arkom: What legitimate reason would there be to have personal mail sent to work? Apart from the fact that your employer would have the right to read it, it's not work related, it's personal! If it has nothing to do with the company, then why send it to the company address?!

Many Thais live in temporary rented accommodation or just with a friend, it's fairly common to route mail to a place of employment.

Most Thai employers respect their staffs privacy. (this also covers post #8)

PS

Once she has discovered you opened her mail, expect to find a new employee.

[robblok]

@arkom: What legitimate reason would there be to have personal mail sent to work? Apart from the fact that your employer would have the right to read it, it's not work related, it's personal! If it has nothing to do with the company, then why send it to the company address?!

Many Thais live in temporary rented accommodation or just with a friend, it's fairly common to route mail to a place of employment.

Most Thai employers respect their staffs privacy. (this also covers post #8)

PS

Once she has discovered you opened her mail, expect to find a new employee.

Not the experience i have with Thais working at offices. Actually most of them would never do such a thing. They fear their boss more then anything else.

[flannelmike]

Many Thais live in temporary rented accommodation or just with a friend, it's fairly common to route mail to a place of employment.

She lives in a house with her boyfriend. But even if she didn't, so what? It would be reasonable to expect staff to ask permission first for something like that.

If you had a maid, would you be OK with her quietly giving your home address when applying for loans, because she didn't have a more permanent address? Not her mobile bill, car registration, or anything else, just the loan she just happens to have not been paying? And she grabs the missed payments letters from the letterbox before you get home from work each day.

I've found out about this one, God knows how many other loans she's been taking out using my address!

Once she has discovered you opened her mail, expect to find a new employee.

Oh, I fully expect to have to do that, but not because she quit :-/

[h90]

@arkom: What legitimate reason would there be to have personal mail sent to work? Apart from the fact that your employer would have the right to read it, it's not work related, it's personal! If it has nothing to do with the company, then why send it to the company address?!

Many Thais live in temporary rented accommodation or just with a friend, it's fairly common to route mail to a place of employment.

Most Thai employers respect their staffs privacy. (this also covers post #8)

PS

Once she has discovered you opened her mail, expect to find a new employee.

No most Thai employers doesn't respect their staffs privacy......

Some staff get some letters to our office, sometimes we open it, sometimes accidentally figuring out that it can't be for us by reading it.

Sometimes my staff opened my private letters and got an ear full from my wife, which they didn't take seriously.

If we discover some credit things addressed to the company address that staff is in deep trouble, we don't want to see dept collectors, boy/girlfriends, parents, friends or anyone else visit us in the company.

We had before that staff wrote some company letter for themself on the company paper. He or she has to resign the job themself immediately or it goes to the police.

[h90]

Many Thais live in temporary rented accommodation or just with a friend, it's fairly common to route mail to a place of employment.

She lives in a house with her boyfriend. But even if she didn't, so what? It would be reasonable to expect staff to ask permission first for something like that.

If you had a maid, would you be OK with her quietly giving your home address when applying for loans, because she didn't have a more permanent address? Not her mobile bill, car registration, or anything else, just the loan she just happens to have not been paying? And she grabs the missed payments letters from the letterbox before you get home from work each day.

I've found out about this one, God knows how many other loans she's been taking out using my address!

Once she has discovered you opened her mail, expect to find a new employee.

Oh, I fully expect to have to do that, but not because she quit :-/

Seems to be Thai style.....we never fired someone. We tell them what they did wrong and tell them that they must resign themself. A bit strange for me but it was always that way.

[flannelmike]

We tell them what they did wrong and tell them that they must resign themself.

That's a good suggestion, thanks. She's been working for less than a year so I don't think there will be any problems if we fire her but your way seems much more Thai :-)

I'm just worried that she's going to make trouble for us afterwards, she does have a vindictive personality and I'd be surprised if she didn't try something. We try to do everything by the book but if she sends Immigration or the police around, these guys can always find something if they really want to :-(

[naboo]

She's permanent, full-time staff (one of the 4 I have for a work permit) but been working for me for less than a year. Will there be any legal issues or liabilities if I fire her?

On my work permit, both addresses, the employer's address and my home address, are the same, effectively stating that I live at work (tell me about it).

Check your copies of her work permit to see if this is the case, AEON may have required this address if its on her work permit.

On the issue of firing her, why would you do that? How would she then pay her debt? Seems an odd move to me.

Call her, you won't be confronting her, just finding out if she needs any help....

[Soutpeel]

We tell them what they did wrong and tell them that they must resign themself.

That's a good suggestion, thanks. She's been working for less than a year so I don't think there will be any problems if we fire her but your way seems much more Thai :-)

I'm just worried that she's going to make trouble for us afterwards, she does have a vindictive personality and I'd be surprised if she didn't try something. We try to do everything by the book but if she sends Immigration or the police around, these guys can always find something if they really want to :-(

If she hasnt taken the loan in the company name and hasn't comitted fraud other than putting the company name on something and you fire her...she could be entitled to wrongful dismissal, if you do fire here it had better be in compliance with the labour act otherwise she can take you to the labour court and most likely win her case.

Have you actually confirmed she has done any wrong doing to company...ie fraud or is this a personal debt problem.....until you do and have proof of an illegal act..I would not firing anyone

Why would she get immigration around ?....

[Soutpeel]

She's permanent, full-time staff (one of the 4 I have for a work permit) but been working for me for less than a year. Will there be any legal issues or liabilities if I fire her?

On my work permit, both addresses, the employer's address and my home address, are the same, effectively stating that I live at work (tell me about it).

Check your copies of her work permit to see if this is the case, AEON may have required this address if its on her work permit.

On the issue of firing her, why would you do that? How would she then pay her debt? Seems an odd move to me.

Call her, you won't be confronting her, just finding out if she needs any help....

The OP appears to be guessing and without definitive proof of fraud against the company, he should not even be talking a firing anyone on speculation...can be taken to the cleaners in the labour court if unfair dismissal...

Further on if only have 3 Thai employee's...would be technically in postion of not fullfilling the requirements of being issued a WP...ie the 4 employee clause....

[arkom]

@arkom: What legitimate reason would there be to have personal mail sent to work? Apart from the fact that your employer would have the right to read it, it's not work related, it's personal! If it has nothing to do with the company, then why send it to the company address?!

There is nothing wrong with sending personal mail to a work address I'm sure I am not the only one that does this.

Not that it is any of your concern, they only things I send there are items that need a signature. It is easier than going back and forth with the post office if I were not at home to sign for something.

[robblok]

@arkom: What legitimate reason would there be to have personal mail sent to work? Apart from the fact that your employer would have the right to read it, it's not work related, it's personal! If it has nothing to do with the company, then why send it to the company address?!

There is nothing wrong with sending personal mail to a work address I'm sure I am not the only one that does this.

Not that it is any of your concern, they only things I send there are items that need a signature. It is easier than going back and forth with the post office if I were not at home to sign for something.

Different story, but i take it your boss agrees with this and you asked him ?

[Soutpeel]

@arkom: What legitimate reason would there be to have personal mail sent to work? Apart from the fact that your employer would have the right to read it, it's not work related, it's personal! If it has nothing to do with the company, then why send it to the company address?!

There is nothing wrong with sending personal mail to a work address I'm sure I am not the only one that does this.

Not that it is any of your concern, they only things I send there are items that need a signature. It is easier than going back and forth with the post office if I were not at home to sign for something.

I have personal mail sent to the office all the time, absolutely nothing wrong with it...

[StoneSoup]

To the OP:

1. Unless you have a published company policy prohibiting employees from receiving personal mail at their work address, your employee did nothing wrong with respect to your company, even if she purposefully asked that mail be sent to her at her work address.

2. Without hearing both sides of the story, you have immediately assumed that your employee is guilty of owing somebody some money. You have then proceeded to let your imagination run wild with all sorts of utterly unsubstantiated fears about evil intent that this employee might have had against your company.

3. What appears to me to have happened is: your employee incurred some sort of debt on a credit card. To get that credit card, she was required her to list her employer, and probably her salary. Very common. As a matter of fact, it is virtually impossible to get a credit card in Thailand without listing your employment and salary. If the credit card company referred an overdue account to a collection agency, they would most likely provide the collection agency with whatever personal info they had. If you were thinking straight, this might have occurred to you. The collection agency's first step was probably to say: "Hey, let's send a collection letter to her at her place of employment If we are lucky, there will be some idiot at her place of employment that will do our job for us, by harassing her into paying us". Bingo! They scored a winner.

4. This letter is no threat to you, and you would be better served by focusing your efforts on taking care of the customers of your business, and your other employees. Let this particular employee sort out her own problems, after she returns.

5. "Five figures" could be 10,001 baht, or 99,999 baht. That is almost a 1,000% spread. Minimum wage in Thailand is presently 9,000 baht per month. So - she owes somewhere between one and eleven month's salary. Is that such a huge deal?

[flannelmike]

Check your copies of her work permit to see if this is the case, AEON may have required this address if its on her work permit.

The work permit is mine, the loan is hers. There is absolutely no valid reason for her to have used the company's address when taking out the loan.

On the issue of firing her, why would you do that? How would she then pay her debt?

Why is this my concern? I will talk to her to see if she has a reason for using the company address for her personal loan but for the life of me, I can't think of one. The only thing I can think of is because she didn't plan to pay it back. She doesn't send her mobile bill to the restaurant, or car registration, so why the loan?

[harrry]

My guess it comanny that she owes had trouble locating her at her home address and sent to her work address which she would have had to disclose.

In most countries it would be not legal to open or read mail addressed to a person that is not you. The exception is where you have a definite stated and written policy which has been accepted b the employee that in may be opened.

If there is no such policy all mail can be returned to the post office unopened for return to sender.

It would be polite to advise your staff of this.

[Semper]

Throw away the letter and pretend you never saw it. The dept has nothing to do with you. People worry too much nowadays.

[flannelmike]

If she hasnt taken the loan in the company name and hasn't comitted fraud other than putting the company name on something and you fire her...she could be entitled to wrongful dismissal, if you do fire here it had better be in compliance with the labour act otherwise she can take you to the labour court and most likely win her case.

This is why I need to do some investigation first, so I know exactly what's happened. In the worst case, she's taken out the loan in the company's name, or put us down as a guarantor. This is fraud and not a problem, there is clearly reasonable grounds for dismissal.

More likely, she's just used the company address when applying for the loan. This is much more grey. It may not be illegal but it is definitely problematic. What possible *valid* reason would she have for doing this, other than not wanting the lender to know where she lives, presumably because she had no plans to pay the loan back. Remember, it's already gone to the collectors, so she's already missed several payments. How do I know how many other loans she's taken out, using my company's name and address. The agency is going to come around looking for her, kicking up a fuss in the restaurant, demanding payment - what impression is that going to make on my customers.

So no, I'm not going to fire her until I know definitely what's going on, but it's surely on the cards.

Why would she get immigration around ?....

Because she's a vindictive cow who will certainly want to make trouble for me if she got dismissed, even if she was clearly in the wrong.

[chuang]

I think it's a personal load, not a loan taken under your company's name nor is it your company being the collateral..and you are not legally bound to repaid the loan....otherwise anyone can just get a loan using some companies' name and get away with it....why not borrow millions using Thaksin's company name..