Need A 1Km Internet Link.......

[Para]

Guys I need some advice please.

I live in a Temple that's on the side of a mountain. We have a lower section fully WiFi covered but the Abbott has asked me to get an Internet link to a newly built meditation complex about 1KM up the hill/mountain.

The obvious choice is a microwave link problem is its a forest temple so even with the lover transmitter up a 30m pole not only is there no sight of it from up the mountain there is also the worry of Fresnel Zone as a 1KM link requires an additional 6m's of clear space above and beyond the line of sight.

I am thinking old school and seem to remember standard phone wire being able to be run up to 3km's so we could possibly get an additional TOT line run up the mountain then just hook up an ADSL router

Any suggestions!

Para

[ulath]

Ethernet over power may work but the limit is around 500m I believe, else go fibre get some pre terminated fibre and and media converters for each end, might cost $500 all up for the gear from ebay.

[cheeryble]

Ulath I looked up ethernet over power but no good for what I want i thik at woulld be for a private network I guess.

I would like my gf to be able to simply be able to share an internet connection with one or two others in her home village. The farthest house, a relative who definitely would like to share, is across a quite busy road, then perhaps 250m up a lightly used soi.

Anyway this can be done?

Where I live some people share just using a line, but it's just a few tens of metres.

Thanks....

Edited June 16, 2012 by cheeryble

[Dork]

ADSL is usually limited to about 4km but I believe it can work up to about 7km with a corresponding drop in speed. So it depends on the distance (cable length, not line of sight) between your ADSL modem and TOT's DSLAM.

But if the meditation centre is only 1km further away than where you already have ADSL then it would seem hopeful.

[Darrel]

"I am thinking old school and seem to remember standard phone wire being able to be run up to 3km's so we could possibly get an additional TOT line run up the mountain then just hook up an ADSL router"

This will work providing that the DSLAM isn't too far away. The total distance from the DSLAM would have to be under about 4-5km for thin lines, or more for thick ones. It would be cheap to implement also as you could run the extra cable yourselves, but it would require a permanent second ADSL subscription which would add up over the years.

Depending on what blocks the line of sight, highly directional wifi might still work and would be worth trying as very cheap to implement.

Other more powerful wireless solutions would probably fall foul of broadcasting restrictions in Europe, but maybe not here.

As mentioned, optical fibre would be absolutely perfect but it would cost a lot especially by the time you have added import taxes etc. Fibre also has the advantage that wild beasties aren't attracted to eating it the way they are attracted to electrical cables. I used fibre for a satellite connection over about 500metres of very rough terrain back in Europe and it's still working years later.

[Para]

ADSL is usually limited to about 4km but I believe it can work up to about 7km with a corresponding drop in speed. So it depends on the distance (cable length, not line of sight) between your ADSL modem and TOT's DSLAM.

But if the meditation centre is only 1km further away than where you already have ADSL then it would seem hopeful.

I thought the total length from switch to hub was 3km if you are saying 4km+ then that has to be the answer.

I found a bit of kit that was effectively POE that would run to 1KM or CATx OR basic RJ11 from the us for 350USD. IMO getting TOT to run a new line is going to be the cheapest and also allow isolation of bandwidth for when the meditation sessions are being broadcast.

Thanks for the other replies.

Para

[Para]

This will work providing that the DSLAM isn't too far away. The total distance from the DSLAM would have to be under about 4-5km for thin lines, or more for thick ones. It would be cheap to implement also as you could run the extra cable yourselves, but it would require a permanent second ADSL subscription which would add up over the years.

Depending on what blocks the line of sight, highly directional wifi might still work and would be worth trying as very cheap to implement.

Other more powerful wireless solutions would probably fall foul of broadcasting restrictions in Europe, but maybe not here.

As mentioned, optical fibre would be absolutely perfect but it would cost a lot especially by the time you have added import taxes etc. Fibre also has the advantage that wild beasties aren't attracted to eating it the way they are attracted to electrical cables. I used fibre for a satellite connection over about 500metres of very rough terrain back in Europe and it's still working years later.

At the rate the monthly subscriptions are dropping and given the fact 6MB would be more than quick enough this has to be the most cost effective solution. IMO.

Trees LOTS of trees! Been trying with a pair of Airguard M5's but its simply impossible to see the other transmittter. Managed to get a topographical map so I know my compass bearings are correct maybe I need to check the maths on the angles of the heads but surely it wouldnt make that much difference if they are slightly out?

The M5's are 500mw I guess we could go harder I am just concerned with the fact we have zero sight of the lower transmitter because of the supporting poll and are relying on compass directions to get a line.

Would love to run fiber problem is as I say its a Temple installation not a commercial so costing is a priority.

Thanks

Para

[Para]

Ethernet over power may work but the limit is around 500m I believe, else go fibre get some pre terminated fibre and and media converters for each end, might cost $500 all up for the gear from ebay.

500m's only gets me half way and there is no way of running power for a hub/extender for the additional half. Nice thought though.

Para

[ulath]

For cherybl

Maybe wifi router or access point with a external aerial , depends on what is in between can you see the roof of their house from your house roof?

If you have a wifi router already maybe put it outside on a extention cord(doesnt need to be plugged in to phone line) to test the wifi strength and see if you can see it at one of the houses.

Maybe talk to a local tech shop about a external aerial, if its mounted outside you have to consider lighting protection. Its not something I have looked at for ages, check out http://www.air-stream.org.au/

Edited June 16, 2012 by ulath

[Satcommlee]

I would be tempted to consider running an inexpensive telephone cable and use an extender something like this..

http://uk.startech.com/Networking-IO/Media-Converters/Ethernet-Extenders/10-100Mbps-VDSL2-Ethernet-LAN-Extender-Kit~110VDSLEXTGB

[ulath]

ADSL is usually limited to about 4km but I believe it can work up to about 7km with a corresponding drop in speed. So it depends on the distance (cable length, not line of sight) between your ADSL modem and TOT's DSLAM.

But if the meditation centre is only 1km further away than where you already have ADSL then it would seem hopeful.

I thought the total length from switch to hub was 3km if you are saying 4km+ then that has to be the answer.

I found a bit of kit that was effectively POE that would run to 1KM or CATx OR basic RJ11 from the us for 350USD. IMO getting TOT to run a new line is going to be the cheapest and also allow isolation of bandwidth for when the meditation sessions are being broadcast.

Thanks for the other replies.

Para

Whats your current adsl speeds/line stats like ? 4km is starting to reach the limit all depends on quality of line, and it speeds fall off the further way depending on line noise.

[Para]

Whats your current adsl speeds/line stats like ? 4km is starting to reach the limit all depends on quality of line, and it speeds fall off the further way depending on line noise.

Oddly enough I normally get around 5Mbps DL but running the TV test its showing less than 1Mbps.

I'm between a rock and a hard place here do I kleep trying to get a microwave link, get a new ADSL line run in and pick up the additional monthly or go fiber.

[Para]

I would be tempted to consider running an inexpensive telephone cable and use an extender something like this..

http://uk.startech.c...it~110VDSLEXTGB

LOL!

I had already found that company but didn't want to post the link in case of getting bashed by the mods! IMO its a great solution nice and cheap and we can do it ourselves.

Was also considering to get a professional company in to do a site survey then just rig their solution myself.

[ulath]

Whats your current adsl speeds/line stats like ? 4km is starting to reach the limit all depends on quality of line, and it speeds fall off the further way depending on line noise.

Oddly enough I normally get around 5Mbps DL but running the TV test its showing less than 1Mbps.

I'm between a rock and a hard place here do I kleep trying to get a microwave link, get a new ADSL line run in and pick up the additional monthly or go fiber.

Maybe ask tot how much for a new phone line installed up there if its not to expensive give it shot?

Fibre, or Adsl extenders linked above basically same thing, how much is copper in Thailand at the moment? Also with the copper if you go that way may need to include the cost of surge/lighting protection.

Price them up and see which is cheaper out of all three

[RKASA]

How fast does it need to be? do you have cell service? - get an air card and router and use edge until 3g is available or adsl. The router will fail over to 3g card when adsl is not present so it will function until you have service up there. Wireless solution ten minute set up time.

[Darrel]

I would be tempted to consider running an inexpensive telephone cable and use an extender something like this..

http://uk.startech.c...it~110VDSLEXTGB

"Maximum Data Transfer Rate

1km - 10Mbit/s"

In real life it will probably be lower.

[Darrel]

At the rate the monthly subscriptions are dropping and given the fact 6MB would be more than quick enough this has to be the most cost effective solution. IMO.

Certainly worth working out the cost of installation. It would also give you dedicated bandwidth rather than shared.

Trees LOTS of trees! Been trying with a pair of Airguard M5's but its simply impossible to see the other transmittter. Managed to get a topographical map so I know my compass bearings are correct maybe I need to check the maths on the angles of the heads but surely it wouldnt make that much difference if they are slightly out?

You would have to use a very highly directional antenna, and even so it probably wouldn't work through lots of trees. Alignment would be critical.

The 3G suggestion is a possibility, assuming you are in a 3G area, but you would rapidly fall foul of bandwidth throttling after the first couple of gigabytes/month. Bandwidth drops hugely once you are being throttled.

[chinook]

Abbot wants internet in the meditation centre...... oh the irony .... would it be possible to utilise an old sattelite dish to help focus the signal......... try googling diy wifi, cantennas

[rakman]

Options:

Edge - available? speed?

3G - available?

ADSL may be slow at distance or expensive to run the wire by the telco?

Cantenna isn't strong enough? Line of sight issues?

Ethernet extender on single pair phone wire might be too delicate and is a long lightning attractor. Cheap to set up, but easy to cut.

I'd suggest fiber optic cable. Lightning is the biggest worry, you'd be putting up a huge antenna with copper wire.

I found FO duplex cable for USD $0.50/ft on 1000' rolls. (3300 ft/km) slightly expensive. Transceivers are actually cheap.

Possibly a high power ethernet extender might work. Some have 15km line of sight, some do well with foliage at 1.5 km at a decent price.

Cost / benefit is going to be a factor as well as maintenance cost.

[manarak]

Thank you for the interesting thread!

[Para]

Great info and advice guys’ maybe tomorrow I will get a side shot of the mountain and a shot from the meditation centre just so you can see how dense the forest is.

@ulath - Just bought a 300m roll of CAT5 cost just over 2000BT which IMO is very expensive

@RKASA - No 3G which would have been soooooooo easy for me and the current 2.5 just doesn’t give the quality needed.

@Darrel - The lower transmitter is currently sitting on a 30m pole with a bright yellow flag attached and still zero viz from the mountain. Add in also Fresnel requirements and is anyone’s guess how high I would have to go. Have GPS on my phone so I know the above sea level heights it’s just over +120m difference add in the pesky trees and you are talking possibly +150m.I understand highly directionally antennas would work but I can’t align the lower one due to the mounting of it. We are rural Rayong so no 3G.

@chinook - Understand it’s a kinda oxymoron but my Abbott travels the world teaching offering video casting expands his ability to teach. cantennas too low tech/high maintenance and I hate eating Pringles!

@rakman - EDGE too slow 'Ethernet extender on single pair phone wire might be too delicate and is a long lightning attractor. Cheap to set up, but easy to cut' This is what I am thinking I can source the higher powered POE's in the UK for about 10k BT and a 1000m roll of phone wire is going to be a fraction of the price of Ethernet. How about using the famous blue tubing to shield the wire?????? I would love to have fiber up there but given the slow internet packages on offer how long till TOT offers say a 30Mbps making fibre justifiable? If I have to run cable then 2 pair is a lot cheaper. I know it will be slower but I have to balance performance against cost.

Again thanks for all the input right now i am thinking get a price from TOT then at least I can make a balanced comparison of costing/performance.

Para

Edited June 17, 2012 by Para

[Darrel]

I would love to have fiber up there but given the slow internet packages on offer how long till TOT offers say a 30Mbps making fibre justifiable? If I have to run cable then 2 pair is a lot cheaper. I know it will be slower but I have to balance performance against cost.

Actually the fibre itself is cheap. It's the two end-units that make up the bulk of the cost. But I dont think that they would cost a great deal more than the other extenders suggested.

The performance would be hugely better. No comparison in fact. You could use fibre with a second dedicated ADSL modem at the base station and get 100% of the bandwidth at the top end.

[rakman]

Great info and advice guys’ maybe tomorrow I will get a side shot of the mountain and a shot from the meditation centre just so you can see how dense the forest is.

@ulath - Just bought a 300m roll of CAT5 cost just over 2000BT which IMO is very expensive

@RKASA - No 3G which would have been soooooooo easy for me and the current 2.5 just doesn’t give the quality needed.

@Darrel - The lower transmitter is currently sitting on a 30m pole with a bright yellow flag attached and still zero viz from the mountain. Add in also Fresnel requirements and is anyone’s guess how high I would have to go. Have GPS on my phone so I know the above sea level heights it’s just over +120m difference add in the pesky trees and you are talking possibly +150m.I understand highly directionally antennas would work but I can’t align the lower one due to the mounting of it. We are rural Rayong so no 3G.

@chinook - Understand it’s a kinda oxymoron but my Abbott travels the world teaching offering video casting expands his ability to teach. cantennas too low tech/high maintenance and I hate eating Pringles!

@rakman - EDGE too slow 'Ethernet extender on single pair phone wire might be too delicate and is a long lightning attractor. Cheap to set up, but easy to cut' This is what I am thinking I can source the higher powered POE's in the UK for about 10k BT and a 1000m roll of phone wire is going to be a fraction of the price of Ethernet. How about using the famous blue tubing to shield the wire?????? I would love to have fiber up there but given the slow internet packages on offer how long till TOT offers say a 30Mbps making fibre justifiable? If I have to run cable then 2 pair is a lot cheaper. I know it will be slower but I have to balance performance against cost.

Again thanks for all the input right now i am thinking get a price from TOT then at least I can make a balanced comparison of costing/performance.

Para

I'd definitely put any cable, copper or fiber, in that wonderful blue tubing. UTP wire, which is cheap, will push 5 Mbps or more at the distance you need, for a reasonable price, including the adapters.

Fiber would be good for just about any speed (gig included) but the transceivers get pricey for Gig. 10/100 are very cheap, but the FO cable is about ~51 baht/meter or so, but, you wouldn't have to worry about lightning.

[rakman]

I would love to have fiber up there but given the slow internet packages on offer how long till TOT offers say a 30Mbps making fibre justifiable? If I have to run cable then 2 pair is a lot cheaper. I know it will be slower but I have to balance performance against cost.

Actually the fibre itself is cheap. It's the two end-units that make up the bulk of the cost. But I dont think that they would cost a great deal more than the other extenders suggested.

The performance would be hugely better. No comparison in fact. You could use fibre with a second dedicated ADSL modem at the base station and get 100% of the bandwidth at the top end.

10/100 fiber transceivers are very cheap 660 baht on ebay for a pair. But the fiber itself is a bit more pricey than copper, and you can get "DIY" connectors that are cheap, too. Easy to setup these days. Some connectors don't need epoxy or polishing. Simple.

[Para]

@Darrel - Always had it in my head a fiber link was super expensive. I know correct termination of the ends can be an issue will have to look into that.

@rakman - 10/100 will be more than enough and i am guessing can be upgraded later as and when, right? Didn’t know they had DIY terminators how times have changed since I have been away from London!

Guys again thanks for all the advice and input it’s been invaluable.

[trimesh]

I'd definitely put any cable, copper or fiber, in that wonderful blue tubing. UTP wire, which is cheap, will push 5 Mbps or more at the distance you need, for a reasonable price, including the adapters.

Fiber would be good for just about any speed (gig included) but the transceivers get pricey for Gig. 10/100 are very cheap, but the FO cable is about ~51 baht/meter or so, but, you wouldn't have to worry about lightning.

Be careful with this - since it looks like the OP is worried about cost, he will likely end up with 850nm xcvrs and multimode fiber - and 1km @1gbit/s is pushing it with that setup since you get to the point where the dispersion in the fiber starts giving you significant amounts of intersymbol interference. 100mbit/s is fine at that range, though.

SMF will handle 1gbit @1km easily, but the cables need more careful termination and the parts tend to cost more.

Edited June 17, 2012 by trimesh

[RandomSand]

The "VDSL2 Ethernet Extender Kit over Single Pair Wire" looks like a good solution, IMHO. The biggest advantage would be the cheapness of the cable.

Edited June 19, 2012 by RandomSand

[BuffaloRescue]

Umm

Couldnt you get a 3g/evdo connection with directional antenna? You can pick up transmitters like 10km away

[nikster]

EVDO, or any other mobile connection, is no good for transmitting data. Receiving is good.

If ethernet over fiber boxes are 660 baht each then that clearly sounds like the best solution. Even if the cable is a bit expensive.

WiFi over directional antennas works very well - if there is a line of sight. If there is no line of sight, it just won't work, and trees are a very good RF shield.

Don't worry about the "body" of the RF signal, that doesn't matter, but you need to be able to see the other antenna from where you are. You could stick it on a high pole, perhaps. If it's 20m up, it might see the other one. Or tie a pole to the tallest tree around? You don't need to be very precise with the direction. You can crank up the power but it won't make up for line of sight. I used Linksys WRTGL routers with Tomato firmware, was great while it lasted. The problem was I had an intermediary transmitter and that caused issues - too many points of failure. From point to point though that wouldn't be an issue. I don't know what you have but if you can establish line of sight in any way, any directional antennas will probably work, they're a few 1000 baht.

Ask TOT if they offer fiber where you are. They now have Fiber in Pai, they can run it much further than ADSL, at much higher speeds. TOT also has WiMax in Pai so maybe they have that too? They'll give you a little box, it's a 6Mbit connection.

[Darrel]

I wouldn't choose to stream video over a shared ADSL line and a network limited to 10Mbs max and (presumably) only half-duplex.

Fibre and a dedicated ADSL line will be better in these circumstances.