MEL1 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 There's a simple preventative action here. Everybody at TVisa and in their other contact sources simply says to everybody they know, and to spread it - make it viral - do not go to Phi Phi Island, and if you do then do not stay at Leema hotel - simple as that. There's plenty of beautiful places to go aside Phi Phi, so give it a miss. -mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyinthailand Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 But this is far from food poisoning, and nor is it close to accidental death! Correct. It is most likely deliberate poisoning with rat poison. Probably slipped in a drink or food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdang Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) at least in the cases a few years ago, it sounds as they had sprayed a pesticide... pretty common thing to do, but this one was probably not intended for indoors... when walking into a room full of vomit, one might not notice a "chemical smell" anymore... the same cleaner in both hotels? not too many people can read... Edited June 17, 2012 by dingdang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chowny77 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Well it seems clear that something is missing from this unfortunate event. I am surprised that the Canadian government has not sent down representatives to over see the so called autospy's and to also make sure that the bodies are not tampered with before they can be sent back home for further checking and also to give their parents alittle comfort to know they are coming home. As many have said before me. There has been far too many unknown/unchecked/covered-up deaths of foreign deaths nationals in this country. It is time now for the consulates/embassy of each nation to tell Thailand to get their act together or they will de-zone Thailand as a safe place to visit. Thailand will crumble without the tourist trade as they have nothing else to give to the world apart from supplying the internet marriage applicants. Sorry if I have offended anyone..........my rant is over. Time to maybe stop caring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyinthailand Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 at least in the cases a few years ago, it sounds as they had sprayed a pesticide... the previous victims on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai did not have bleeding gums or bruising. Rat poison does not work via inhalation. These women probably ate rat poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) A family lose their 2 daughter at the same time, in a tragic way, but we still have the thai apologist that gonna swear that thailand is safer in anyway than any occident country... Indeed for them Business is more important Just a reminder to these fool: There are more murder in thailand alone than in all west and central european country ALL TOGETHER. Yes you read it well: more homicide in thailand than in 25 european country all together! The number of deaths from homicide in EU25 was 4 743 in 2005, EU25 comprised Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovak Republic, and Slovenia. source and you have around 500 million people in these 25 europeans country and less than 5000 homicide. while in thailand alone the number of homicide is between 5400 to 6000... But some cynical people will come and remind us business is business. Another comparison (which does not require mental arithmetic) is the homicide rate (homicides per 100,000 people) in different countries. Here are the rates for two countries in 2008: Thailand: 5.897 United States of America: 5.220 (Source: http://data.un.org/D...C&f=tableCode:1 ) To me the diference is not that dramatic, in particular since we are comparing a supposedly developed country with one in the "third world". / Priceless Either you are trolling or you are definitively blind. So i repeat : In 25 european country with a population of around 500 millions people, you have 4743 homicide while in thailand with a population of 67 millions people the number of homicide goes from 5400 to 6000. (4000 if we take your rate) But its still make 8 time more murder in thailand. AND your DONT SEE ANY dramatic difference. so what wrong with you? slow business? And to add: from your source, you are quoting in thailand a homicide rate of 5.897 But you forget to add that in 2003 from the same source, the homicide rate show 9,971 Oh god what a huge decrease! Nearly unbeliveable... till you realized these figure came from .... the royal thai police itself hum hum. Yes that the right word: unbeliveable. Amazing job, yeah one of the most corrupted police on earth did an amazing job and nobody never heard of it, excepting you. So i let you make your own judgement but honestly the american police should take example on them. ha ha. Here some stat from unodc and it show homicide rate country by country and you can see a huge difference between occident and thailand , yeah a huge one : http://www.unodc.org...es-05012009.pdf (ps from this source the homicide rate varie from 8.2 to 9 against 5.2 for the USA) Edited June 17, 2012 by Bender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) Pufferfish poison can quickly lead to paralysis, and I'm sure there are more poisons found in food that can have the same effect. So food poisoning can be a very reasonable explanation. Correct. However, in the absence of a chemical analysis it is irresponsible to speculate or offer an explanation. It can takes months for the work that will provide a definitive answer. Initial body fluid, culture growth and examination can provide an indication, but a proper analysis takes time. I know everyone wants a quick answer but, it will be at least a month before the medical examiner releases a report. Sorry, but if people knew the backlog in the labs and how long each test takes, they would be more understanding. Edited June 17, 2012 by geriatrickid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabel Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Nothing to do with any of the above posts but rather to the fact that Thailand can incrementally without ANYBODIES CONSENT cremate the bodies of foreigners who have passed away here in Thailand ....................????????? This is so crazy to me... !! What Bloody right do they have to do this ??? Wow this is so mind boggling ...!!! And no relatives in the past has ever objected and gone after them for doing this ....?? I know it has been done but never believed it ..... no relatives have ever complained or filed suit about this when losing a dear one .................??? This is totally beyond me ... really!! how is this evenly sanely possible ??? Please tell me this is not true !! I would kill if my daughter died here and was cremated indiscriminately without my consent .... My God ! this is so horrible and is just grabbing me now even though I know it has happened ...!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 the american women, which died in 2009 did NOT drink any alcohol that night, but the americans as well as the norwegian girls noticed a strong chemical smell in the room (the americans and the girls stayed in room 4 and 5)... Ryan, the american survivor, states: Although Jill and Julie mysteriously died on May 3, 2009, air samples were not collected by the Office of Disease and Prevention until June 13, 2009, more than FIVE weeks later. The results of the air tests from rooms 2, 4 & 5 came back normal however room 6 showed results of extremely toxic levels of toluene, pyridine, methylchoride, and acetalene, which we understand to be lethal poisons. What caused room 6 to have such deadly levels of poisons in the air and where is it located in relation to rooms 4 and 5? http://jillstonge.bl...0&max-results=2about the norwegian autopsy http://phuketwan.com...n-speaks-12036/ and also important info: the owner of the laleena guesthouse, khun rat, stayed that fateful night with her family even closer to the wastewater canal than the guests... Poisons such as arsenic or cyanide can cause garlic or metallic taste which can seemingly cause a sense of smelling something. Just a thought, but have ni idea what happened in 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyinthailand Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 at least in the cases a few years ago, it sounds as they had sprayed a pesticide... Previous Phi Phi and Chiang Mai victims did not have bleeding gums and bruising, as the current victims did. (anti coagulant) Rat poison does not kill via inhalation. These women were probably fed the poison in food or drink by this killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayman Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Yes, easy to say now. I'm not disagreeing with the medicals, I am saying how naieve of you to think anybody planning a holiday is going to discuss bringing charcoal with them. If that was the case, everybody would be overloaded with pharmacy bags that they wouldn't even get a pair of pants in thier luggage! Maybe everybody should bring crutches too, in case they break a leg? -mel. I'm not naive. People who travel without activated charcoal are naive. And you don't need to be "overloaded with pharmacy bags"--just a handful of activated charcoal--or know to step out to any Thai pharmacy and purchase some. This is precisely why I'm talking about it, so that people will learn. I for one will go to my local Thai pharmacy and buy some. Living here with my 2 young kids it seems like a smart thing to keep on hand. thanks for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lannarebirth Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Yes, easy to say now. I'm not disagreeing with the medicals, I am saying how naieve of you to think anybody planning a holiday is going to discuss bringing charcoal with them. If that was the case, everybody would be overloaded with pharmacy bags that they wouldn't even get a pair of pants in thier luggage! Maybe everybody should bring crutches too, in case they break a leg? -mel. I'm not naive. People who travel without activated charcoal are naive. And you don't need to be "overloaded with pharmacy bags"--just a handful of activated charcoal--or know to step out to any Thai pharmacy and purchase some. This is precisely why I'm talking about it, so that people will learn. I for one will go to my local Thai pharmacy and buy some. Living here with my 2 young kids it seems like a smart thing to keep on hand. thanks for the advice. It is. Really cheap too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surangw Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Will they ship the bodies back asap, or wait until evidence is purged as much as possible? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabel Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Having never been to Phi Phi or even to a full moon party, my understanding is that everyone apparently drinks out of buckets? Is that so? I have seen video clips with 1/2 bottles of Vodka or whiskey standing in a bucket with some mixers, and thats how you buy it and stick ice in, empty the contents in the bucket, get a straw and you are away. When I have seen the vids, I have not seen 'branded' drinks. No Smirnoff, etc etc just labels more akin to 'Dr Smiths, brain wangler'. My question is that I would have thought that there was a big market in making illegal booze on Phi Phi and the likes, and of course you only have to get your mix and method a little wrong and you don't make nice sweet spirits, you make something similar to meths that burns with a dark orange flame. Not having had this stuff but I guess with ice and 2 cans of mixer it tastes as equally disgusting as any other bucket of booze. The fact is it is incredibly dangerous though, and will kill and will easily blind. The issue behind this theory though is like the food poisoning, in that if someone were going to make a 'bad batch' then more than the two girls would have been affected. Any ideas, or thoughts from those with experience of Phi Phi /full moon parties. My thoughts were that fatal stuff like this would have affected others. Exactly and if you were at a Full Moon Party you would not be coming home till the next morning at best ... They came home early the night of Tuesday according to the report and guard who testified ??? as such ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 at least in the cases a few years ago, it sounds as they had sprayed a pesticide... the previous victims on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai did not have bleeding gums or bruising. Rat poison does not work via inhalation. These women probably ate rat poison. The "bruising" reported is not bruising, but a normal manifestation of blood pooling where the body has dropped. It is not unusual to observe this in the dead. Reference is made to cyanosis, the blue condition, which is indicative of a circulatory and or heart condition that interfered with the oxygenation of the blood. The typical rat poison used in Thailand, is an anti coagulant. It works by depleting the vitamin K reserves in the mammal. Vitamin K is need for proper coagualtion. It would take time for such a drug to work on a human and there would be other telltale signs such as a nose bleed and leakage at the eyes. Cyanosis is not an indication of exposure to rat poison. How about you sit tight for a month until the lab work is done, ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Pufferfish poison can quickly lead to paralysis, and I'm sure there are more poisons found in food that can have the same effect. So food poisoning can be a very reasonable explanation. Correct. However, in the absence of a chemical analysis it is irresponsible to speculate or offer an explanation. It can takes months for the work that will provide a definitive answer. Initial body fluid, culture growth and examination can provide an indication, but a proper analysis takes time. I know everyone wants a quick answer but, it will be at least a month before the medical examiner releases a report. Sorry, but if people knew the backlog in the labs and how long each test takes, they would be more understanding. Someone selling or serving puffer fish to just these two young women is a crime and perhaps no different than someone putting arsenic in their food if they knew it was puffer fish. If not, still murder at a lesser degree. Tissue samples and toxicology is quick and relatively cheap. Cultures may take 72 hours to a maybe 5 days. If that all comes back benign, then investigation may well take some time. Food poisining us going to hit screens quickly and spike well considering there was sufficient amounts to cause death. This all basic, basic stuff in any country with technology present today unless pathology, toxicology and cultures all came back clean. The chances of that happening based on symptoms are next to none. One other thought is some screwed up viral infection that hit quick and hard. That would be of real concern though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Will they ship the bodies back asap, or wait until evidence is purged as much as possible? It is difficult to purge chemicals from body tissue after death. A competent lab technician will be able to identify most chemicals once the tests are done, and an experienced pathologist can identify the telltale signs of chemical poisoning once the vital organs are examined. Your attempt to present a conspiracy has failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyinthailand Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Pufferfish poison can quickly lead to paralysis, and I'm sure there are more poisons found in food that can have the same effect. So food poisoning can be a very reasonable explanation. Bleeding gums and bruising are NOT symptoms of Pufferfish. 'Regular' food poisoning can NOT explain bleeding gums and bruising. It wasn't 'regular' food poisoning. Correct. However, in the absence of a chemical analysis it is irresponsible to speculate or offer an explanation. It is irresponsible to not try and figure this out now, because the Thais have proven they will do everything possible to cover this up, as they did in the Chiang Mai deaths, first listing all sorts of 'reason's including puffer fish by the way, why the chiang mai victims died, all of which I shot down with logic and reasons. Bleeding gums and bruising is rat poison--until proven otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabel Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Having never been to Phi Phi or even to a full moon party, my understanding is that everyone apparently drinks out of buckets? Is that so? I have seen video clips with 1/2 bottles of Vodka or whiskey standing in a bucket with some mixers, and thats how you buy it and stick ice in, empty the contents in the bucket, get a straw and you are away. When I have seen the vids, I have not seen 'branded' drinks. No Smirnoff, etc etc just labels more akin to 'Dr Smiths, brain wangler'. My question is that I would have thought that there was a big market in making illegal booze on Phi Phi and the likes, and of course you only have to get your mix and method a little wrong and you don't make nice sweet spirits, you make something similar to meths that burns with a dark orange flame. Not having had this stuff but I guess with ice and 2 cans of mixer it tastes as equally disgusting as any other bucket of booze. The fact is it is incredibly dangerous though, and will kill and will easily blind. The issue behind this theory though is like the food poisoning, in that if someone were going to make a 'bad batch' then more than the two girls would have been affected. Any ideas, or thoughts from those with experience of Phi Phi /full moon parties. My thoughts were that fatal stuff like this would have affected others. Never been to any but have heard from close friends who have been to many and believe me none of them ever reported a death situation because of a moon party overose of whatever ...passing out for 1-2 dayss yes... and feeling like total shit afterwards for another 1 -2 days = YES ... DYING = NO!!!! Never heard of it in any of these moon parties .... unless they have thrown thenselves into the ocean .... suicide case then !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elektrified Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Yes, easy to say now. I'm not disagreeing with the medicals, I am saying how naieve of you to think anybody planning a holiday is going to discuss bringing charcoal with them. If that was the case, everybody would be overloaded with pharmacy bags that they wouldn't even get a pair of pants in thier luggage! Maybe everybody should bring crutches too, in case they break a leg? -mel. I'm not naive. People who travel without activated charcoal are naive. And you don't need to be "overloaded with pharmacy bags"--just a handful of activated charcoal--or know to step out to any Thai pharmacy and purchase some. This is precisely why I'm talking about it, so that people will learn. I always carry activated charcoal. I was in Phuket last week and got food poisoning. It really helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoodMaiDai Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Could it be these two did a drug sold to them on the island that ended up not being the drug they though it was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabel Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Yes, easy to say now. I'm not disagreeing with the medicals, I am saying how naieve of you to think anybody planning a holiday is going to discuss bringing charcoal with them. If that was the case, everybody would be overloaded with pharmacy bags that they wouldn't even get a pair of pants in thier luggage! Maybe everybody should bring crutches too, in case they break a leg? -mel. I'm not naive. People who travel without activated charcoal are naive. And you don't need to be "overloaded with pharmacy bags"--just a handful of activated charcoal--or know to step out to any Thai pharmacy and purchase some. This is precisely why I'm talking about it, so that people will learn. And that would have saved their lives you think.....?? Can you guys out there stop your erictile egos for a while and focus on the issue ...?? or I won't sya more or i will be an outposter ...:-((( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyinthailand Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The "bruising" reported is not bruising, but a normal manifestation of blood pooling where the body has dropped. It is not unusual to observe this in the dead. Reference is made to cyanosis, the blue condition, which is indicative of a circulatory and or heart condition that interfered with the oxygenation of the blood. The typical rat poison used in Thailand, is an anti coagulant. It works by depleting the vitamin K reserves in the mammal. Vitamin K is need for proper coagualtion. It would take time for such a drug to work on a human and there would be other telltale signs such as a nose bleed and leakage at the eyes. Cyanosis is not an indication of exposure to rat poison. How about you sit tight for a month until the lab work is done, ok? How about you relax and stop trying to control the discussion, ok? It was reported as 'bruising' which is consistent with rat poison. Rat poison may--MAY--cause bleeding from various sites but not all sites have to be involved. So you're wrong about the nose bleeds--they do not have to be present in warfarin-type poisoning. Bleeding gums, however, is a classic sign of rat poison and of no other, as far as I know. These women had bleeding gums. You're wrong. Warfarin can cause cyanosis (blue coloration). Bleeding develops 24 or more hours after ingestion. In google type 'warfarin emedicine' to learn more. I await your post to list other possible causes of bleeding gums that could have affected these two sisters at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micke1234 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 is it really "allrigt" to eat charcoal when food poisoned? any links on this? in my world that is something only a doctor will give you, not something u just eat when u think u got food poisoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 at least in the cases a few years ago, it sounds as they had sprayed a pesticide... the previous victims on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai did not have bleeding gums or bruising. Rat poison does not work via inhalation. These women probably ate rat poison. The "bruising" reported is not bruising, but a normal manifestation of blood pooling where the body has dropped. It is not unusual to observe this in the dead. Reference is made to cyanosis, the blue condition, which is indicative of a circulatory and or heart condition that interfered with the oxygenation of the blood. The typical rat poison used in Thailand, is an anti coagulant. It works by depleting the vitamin K reserves in the mammal. Vitamin K is need for proper coagualtion. It would take time for such a drug to work on a human and there would be other telltale signs such as a nose bleed and leakage at the eyes. Cyanosis is not an indication of exposure to rat poison. How about you sit tight for a month until the lab work is done, ok? I think most are suspecting arsenic, cyanide and etc. as oppose to the older anti coagulation eat poisons. Although, very high amounts could cause internal bleeding quickly and there would be huge patches of bruising on body that us completely unlike rigamortis. Not sure how you can differentiate bruising it lesions on body unless you either examined body, know exact location or talked to someone who did. I would hope that those involved in investigation know difference and, if they did, they likely would not have referenced such as a significant initial finding. The pattern, location or types of lesions/bruising apparently caught someone's attention as being something unexpected. Arsenic can cause bleeding gums and skin lesions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyinthailand Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 And that would have saved their lives you think.....?? Can you guys out there stop your erictile egos for a while and focus on the issue ...?? or I won't sya more or i will be an outposter ...:-((( If you had a healthier, stronger ego you wouldn't need to criticize those offering concrete advice to deal with poisonings. Why are you so freaked out by debate? Yes, activated charcoal would have saved their lives if they had taken it in time, or at least given them a greater 'window' in which to get to the hospital to get Vitamin K which is the antidote to rat poison--if indeed this was rat poison. Which is why activated charcoal is THE number ONE protocol for most types of poisonings in every emergency room worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyinthailand Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) is it really "allrigt" to eat charcoal when food poisoned? any links on this? in my world that is something only a doctor will give you, not something u just eat when u think u got food poisoned. It not only 'allright" to eat charcoal, it is the logical, smart thing to do. Just google 'activated charcoal emedicine' for example. Activated charcoal is available in every Thai pharmcy in blister packs of 10 or so. Non-toxic in any amount. For serious poisoning--say, if you knew you had eaten rat poison--then you would take 1 gram per kilogram body weight--so for a 70 kg person that would be 70 grams or 140 capsules. For mild food poisoning a handful of caps will do the trick. Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swillowbee Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 ... the story is now being reported from the US on Fox News ... http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/17/reports-canadian-sisters-found-dead-in-thailand/?test=latestnews ... it references the other similarly suspicious tourist deaths in Thailand and the unconvincing Royal Thai Police's reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyinthailand Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) Arsenic can cause bleeding gums and skin lesions. No it can't. It can cause blood in the urine and vomit but not gums. And no skin lesions. Just google 'arsenic emedicine' or 'arsenic wiki'. Give a citation if you can prove otherwise. Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttelise Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Could it be these two did a drug sold to them on the island that ended up not being the drug they though it was? Librarian, honor students, one about to attend dental school, comments by family and friends all make drug use very unlikely suspect. I would think something that presented as common problem such as food poisoning may lull one into inaction. Seems like drug dealer selling arsenic or poison would probably take out more people unless just popping every once in a while for a thrill kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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