Canadian Sisters Died Of 'Food Poisoning' In Thailand Hotel

[dingdang]

in the previous phi phi cases...

perhaps it is a powder, as i once noticed on the bedsheet (in another country) which had caused a skin rash already when waking up...

even though, the air measured in phi phi was not fatal (but toxic), what if the aircon is running full speed - the powder particles will circulate, and be inhaled permanently?

the aircon will be directed at the bed...

together with sleeping naked, having full skin contact with the powder, it might become deadly?

Edited June 17, 2012 by dingdang

[ttelise]

Arsenic can cause bleeding gums and skin lesions.

No it can't. It can cause blood in the urine but not gums. And no skin lesions. Just google 'arsenic emedicine' or 'arsenic wiki'.

Give a citation if you can prove otherwise.

Not true. I have worked on a murder case where wife poisoned husband with arsenic. I don't read wiki or Internet stuff as reliable sources.

I just googled and found this book on differential diagnosis and it list arsenic poisoning as cause of gum bleed.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BGG9xq7LVoUC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=arsenic+cause+bleeding+gums&source=bl&ots=Qqz2PNdvPN&sig=eLlQVCMytlpIPT9F5VdSF95ZxiA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zwneT4XWOIGq8ASUocjiCg&ved=0CGMQ6AEwAQ

(.(). Bleeding Gums due to General Conditions or preceded by Lesions elsewhere than in the Mouth:—

Scurvy

Splenomedullary leukaemia

Lymphatic leuka-mia

Hodgkin's disease

Pernicious anaemia

Aplastic iiii.'i'inia

Splenic ano-mia

Haemophilia

[it). Bleeding Gums due

Injury, e.g., by tooth brush

Dental caries

Tartar

Pyorrhoea alveolaris

Alveolar abscess

Papilloma

Epulis

Myeloid sarcoma

Purpura (see Purpura, p. 552)

Syphilis

Mercurialism

Iodide poisoning

Phosphorus poisoning

Arsenic poisoning

Lead poisoning

to purely Local Conditions:

Epithelioma

Actinomycosis

Acute or chronic stomatitis

not obviously due to any of

the causes already men-

tioned, e.g.:

Aphthous stomatitis

Ulcerative stomatitis

[MEL1]

Pufferfish poison can quickly lead to paralysis, and I'm sure there are more poisons found in food that can have the same effect. So food poisoning can be a very reasonable explanation.

Correct. However, in the absence of a chemical analysis it is irresponsible to speculate or offer an explanation. It can takes months for the work that will provide a definitive answer. Initial body fluid, culture growth and examination can provide an indication, but a proper analysis takes time. I know everyone wants a quick answer but, it will be at least a month before the medical examiner releases a report. Sorry, but if people knew the backlog in the labs and how long each test takes, they would be more understanding.

Yeah, the backlog.... such a shame.

Where's the red-shirt leader holding the Welsh girl's evidence again????

-mel.

[ttelise]

Arsenic can cause bleeding gums and skin lesions.

No it can't. It can cause blood in the urine but not gums. And no skin lesions. Just google 'arsenic emedicine' or 'arsenic wiki'.

Give a citation if you can prove otherwise.

More reliable source than Wiki which may only list partial info anyway.

Note, the in rare cases denotes only that arsenic poisoning is rarely encountered in medical setting when considering differential diagnosis as not many individuals or workers are exposed to sufficient amounts of arsenic to cause gum bleeds.

Here is quote from medical literature that I copied:

Arsenic and lead are both rare causes of bleeding gums; occupation, or medical prescription, or habits as regards drinking, may suggest the diagnosis, and there may be other signs of the poisoning, particularly pigmentation of the skin, vomiting, diarrhoea, hyperkeratosis of the soles and palms, and generalized peripheral neuritis in the case of arsenic: and the symptoms given elsewhere (p. 84) in the case of lead. Arsenic may be found in excess in the hair, or lead may be detected in the fa>ces or in the residue from a bulk of urine.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ttelise

[MEL1]

... the story is now being reported from the US on Fox News ... http://www.foxnews.c...test=latestnews ... it references the other similarly suspicious tourist deaths in Thailand and the unconvincing Royal Thai Police's reports.

"Unconvincing Royal Thai Police"......

I think you hit the nail on the head there pal!

-mel.

[guyinthailand]

I think most are suspecting arsenic, cyanide and etc. as oppose to the older anti coagulation eat poisons.

If they are, then they are probably wrong. Arsenic and cyanide do NOT fit the symptoms of bleeding gums and bruising.

Arsenic can cause bleeding gums and skin lesions.

No it doesn't.

[guyinthailand]

Here is quote from medical literature that I copied:

Arsenic and lead are both rare causes of bleeding gums;

why quote it. Give us the exact url citation.

And, even if your quote is accurate, note the word 'rare'.

[FxMatD]

I think what is key is to test the vomit found in the room as well as an autopsy. In case of poisoning or food poisoning there is trace to be found into the vomit. Let's hope that this evidence are still accessible.

RIP to these 2 girls

[ttelise]

I think most are suspecting arsenic, cyanide and etc. as oppose to the older anti coagulation eat poisons.

If they are, then they are probably wrong. Arsenic and cyanide do NOT fit the symptoms of bleeding gums and bruising.

Arsenic can cause bleeding gums and skin lesions.

No it doesn't.

Whatever. I cite a medical journal and I have personally seen it as a symptom in a death case where much time was spent on symptoms and whether it was an acute accidental poisoning versus chronic administration of low amounts over time.

Bleeding gyms can be also caused by renal failure and dehydration which are both caused by acute arsenic poisoning. The list you read on Wiki is perhaps not an all inclusive list. I don't know as I have nit looked on Wiki. Regardless, Wiki is far from a reliable medical literature that any medical doctor would look to in making a medical diagnosis.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ttelise

[ttelise]

Here is quote from medical literature that I copied:

Arsenic and lead are both rare causes of bleeding gums;

why quote it. Give us the exact url citation.

And, even if your quote is accurate, note the word 'rare'.

Seriously, you are about as quick as BiB and I bet they use Wiki for their diagnosis also.

Yep, arsenic poisoning cases in general are very rare so when you see bleeding gum you typically rule out more common causes first unless other symptoms suggesting arsenic poisoning are present.

That dies not mean arsenic poisoning rarely causes gum bleeds, but that most gum bleeds are not caused by arsenic poisoning. Cannot state it any clearer.

[GentlemanJim]

An issue here is that if it was anything illegal that was administered to the Girls, lets just say methanol from badly distilled spirits then on a small Island like Phi Phi it is almost 100% certain the police are involved. My wife worked for a very short time in a resort on an island not to far away. There were a number of resorts on the island and all very popular with Germans, Dutch and Scandinavian folks. Many were repeat customers who had been going to these resorts for years. It turned out the reason why was that all the 'customers' would sit on the beach or in the hotels getting stoned all day and night. My wife first found out about this when a guest came to reception asking for some weed to be sent to his room! The manager had to take her aside and explain the 'system'.

My wife was unable to leave until the following morning, she said she had to get to the mainland to go to hospital and never returned. The guy who ran the entire supply of drugs to the hotels was the Island policeman. Still is to this day. Nobody can get on the island without the policeman knowing. All the boat men are in his pocket and phone him concerning any inbound guests and visitors. Nobody will ever die of a drug overdose there, they will be drunk and drowned or maybe even 'food poisoned'. I guess this is one reason why it would be very dangerous carrying out any type of investigation on Phi Phi. This one really needs sorting. Maybe some emails tomorrow to the Canadian Consulate or Ambassador may help.

[Jayman]

An issue here is that if it was anything illegal that was administered to the Girls, lets just say methanol from badly distilled spirits then on a small Island like Phi Phi it is almost 100% certain the police are involved. My wife worked for a very short time in a resort on an island not to far away. There were a number of resorts on the island and all very popular with Germans, Dutch and Scandinavian folks. Many were repeat customers who had been going to these resorts for years. It turned out the reason why was that all the 'customers' would sit on the beach or in the hotels getting stoned all day and night. My wife first found out about this when a guest came to reception asking for some weed to be sent to his room! The manager had to take her aside and explain the 'system'.

My wife was unable to leave until the following morning, she said she had to get to the mainland to go to hospital and never returned. The guy who ran the entire supply of drugs to the hotels was the Island policeman. Still is to this day. Nobody can get on the island without the policeman knowing. All the boat men are in his pocket and phone him concerning any inbound guests and visitors. Nobody will ever die of a drug overdose there, they will be drunk and drowned or maybe even 'food poisoned'. I guess this is one reason why it would be very dangerous carrying out any type of investigation on Phi Phi. This one really needs sorting. Maybe some emails tomorrow to the Canadian Consulate or Ambassador may help.

Seems rather unfair of you to not share the name of the island...

[annabel]

And that would have saved their lives you think.....?? Can you guys out there stop your erictile egos for a while and focus on the issue ...?? or I won't sya more or i will be an outposter ...:-(((

If you had a healthier, stronger ego you wouldn't need to criticize those offering concrete advice to deal with poisonings. Why are you so freaked out by debate?

Yes, activated charcoal would have saved their lives if they had taken it in time, or at least given them a greater 'window' in which to get to the hospital to get Vitamin K which is the antidote to rat poison--if indeed this was rat poison. Which is why activated charcoal is THE number ONE protocol for most types of poisonings in every emergency room worldwide.

well dear sir "Freaked out by debate "?? to begin with what is your point here in this statement and really is it even worth responding to = NO! Bye ! Bye !

[GentlemanJim]

An issue here is that if it was anything illegal that was administered to the Girls, lets just say methanol from badly distilled spirits then on a small Island like Phi Phi it is almost 100% certain the police are involved. My wife worked for a very short time in a resort on an island not to far away. There were a number of resorts on the island and all very popular with Germans, Dutch and Scandinavian folks. Many were repeat customers who had been going to these resorts for years. It turned out the reason why was that all the 'customers' would sit on the beach or in the hotels getting stoned all day and night. My wife first found out about this when a guest came to reception asking for some weed to be sent to his room! The manager had to take her aside and explain the 'system'.

My wife was unable to leave until the following morning, she said she had to get to the mainland to go to hospital and never returned. The guy who ran the entire supply of drugs to the hotels was the Island policeman. Still is to this day. Nobody can get on the island without the policeman knowing. All the boat men are in his pocket and phone him concerning any inbound guests and visitors. Nobody will ever die of a drug overdose there, they will be drunk and drowned or maybe even 'food poisoned'. I guess this is one reason why it would be very dangerous carrying out any type of investigation on Phi Phi. This one really needs sorting. Maybe some emails tomorrow to the Canadian Consulate or Ambassador may help.

Seems rather unfair of you to not share the name of the island...

These forums are not anonymous

[annabel]

Here is a link to a US government web site that shows that the symptoms of methanol poisoning match up to the symptoms evidenced by these two young women. A real tradgedy

And YOU trust the US of A ???

[Phatcharanan]

Pufferfish poison can quickly lead to paralysis, and I'm sure there are more poisons found in food that can have the same effect. So food poisoning can be a very reasonable explanation.

I agree with you. I think Pufferfish poisoning has similar symptoms to what has already been described. It is documented that there have been many cases of poisoning in Thailand from these fish.

For people to start speculating that there is some kind of 'cover-up' or serial killer running around is at the moment, fairly ridiculous.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Phatcharanan

[ttelise]

Pufferfish poison can quickly lead to paralysis, and I'm sure there are more poisons found in food that can have the same effect. So food poisoning can be a very reasonable explanation.

I agree with you. I think Pufferfish poisoning has similar symptoms to what has already been described. It is documented that there have been many cases of poisoning in Thailand from these fish.

For people to start speculating that there is some kind of 'cover-up' or serial killer running around is at the moment, fairly ridiculous.

Haha, the voice of reason. A cover up in Thailand. No way. They always figure out causes of death.

Once again, if some just picked out these two girls to feed puffer fish and they died, that still is murder. Calling it food poisoning instead of feeding poisonous food is misleading and tantamount to concealment.

There is a cover up either way and seems like there should be a criminal investigation and warning if puffer fish suspected. I suspect they were feed poisoned food, just nit of the puffer fish variety which is also a CNS agent and would not cause acute renal failure. Easy to look at that if want to determine cause of death.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ttelise

[ttelise]

Here is a link to a US government web site that shows that the symptoms of methanol poisoning match up to the symptoms evidenced by these two young women. A real tradgedy

And YOU trust the US of A ???

I know people just don't want to believe there are killers and sickos in Thailand, like there us everywhere, but people just nit really thinking stuff through.

If methanol from party or bar, there would either be more suck people or they were specifically targeted by someone who knew it was poisonous.

Giving someone poisonous drink is murder. Is it really difficult to believe some sicko is running around in Thailand giving people poisonous <deleted> for thrill kills. Could be an American psycho. Doesn't matter.

Still a crime and sticking head in sand in name of tourism or whatever just exposes more innocent people to mysterious unresolved deaths. That should be unacceptable as should the 2009 deaths.

[spirit47]

Remember Chiang Mai: 7 people die in the same Hotel, before they found out, it was the pest-controller. Don't know what they using, but some poison that is standart for home-using will damage unborn child, I read last week. So, if a room have Gecko, I would feel save.

Most horrific that the family lose two child the same time...

[cdnvic]

I removed one inflamatory post. Lets all calm down a bit please.

[guyinthailand]

I cite a medical journal

Bleeding gyms can be also caused by renal failure and dehydration which are both caused by acute arsenic poisoning.

you still didn't give a citation, link or url.

I cited above the emedicine link which is authoritative and which does not mention arsenic as causing bleeding gums. Renal failure--now you're grasping at straws.

you're just making stuff up as you go along.

But it is possible both sisters had some sort of hemophilia or coagulation disorder from birth.

But knowing what I know about the other deaths on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, I'm betting deliberate poisoning with a warfarin-like substance, most likely rat poison.

[guyinthailand]

Remember Chiang Mai: 7 people die in the same Hotel, before they found out, it was the pest-controller. Don't know what they using, but some poison that is standart for home-using will damage unborn child, I read last week. So, if a room have Gecko, I would feel save.

Most horrific that the family lose two child the same time...

After the previous Phi Phi and Chiang Mai deaths, Thais sprang up on discussion boards to deflect the possibility of deliberate poisonings.

7 people did not die in one hotel in Chiang Mai, but THREE different hotels.

So that makes 'the' pest controller unlikely. Besides, there are tens of thousands of hotel rooms in Thailand and they are sprayed with poisons frequently and we never hear of these kinds of deaths before these cluster deaths happened in Chiang Mai and Phi Phi.

It is a serial killer until proven otherwise.

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[annabel]

There's a simple preventative action here.

Everybody at TVisa and in their other contact sources simply says to everybody they know, and to spread it - make it viral - do not go to Phi Phi Island, and if you do then do not stay at Leema hotel - simple as that.

There's plenty of beautiful places to go aside Phi Phi, so give it a miss.

-mel.

And please add to that which I do = avoid Phuket & Pataya at all costs !!! Total mafia from taxis to jet ski rental mafias'

[guyinthailand]

"Forensic officials found vomit in the room, blood on their lips and gums and their fingernails and toenails were blue," lieutenant colonel Rat Somboon of Krabi Provincial Police said, adding there were "signs of serious food poisoning."

Above we have the Thais already starting to blame 'food' as the cause of these deaths, just as they did with the Chiang Mai and previous Phi Phi deaths. (Food poisoning does not cause bleeding gums and bruises.) In both cases, of course, it turned out to be far from 'food' poisoning. I think all Chiang Mai victims may have eaten at the Night Bazaar and so may have been poisoned there. It is noteworthy and strange, however, that so many of the Chiang Mai victims died in one hotel in rooms that were located close to each other, casting some doubt on the 'poison in food' idea.

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[ttelise]

I cite a medical journal

Bleeding gyms can be also caused by renal failure and dehydration which are both caused by acute arsenic poisoning.

you still didn't give a citation, link or url.

I cited above the emedicine link which is authoritative and which does not mention arsenic as causing bleeding gums. Renal failure--now you're grasping at straws.

you're just making stuff up as you go along.

But it is possible both sisters had some sort of hemophilia or coagulation disorder from birth.

But knowing what I know about the other deaths on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, I'm betting deliberate poisoning with a warfarin-like substance, most likely rat poison.

I did provide link couple pages back. Herbert French clinical differential diagnosis. Show me cute said does cause.

Making stuff up. I would say based on professions we have and the fact you ry upon Wikipedia you are a but more unreliable.

I mentioned chain of events including acute renal failure from arsenic poisoning causing cyanosis and other symptoms in closed thread several times very early on in thread. I have never changed anything as I go along.

Emedicine is not considered a medical journal or treatise accepted by medical community for use in daignosus and treatment of patients.

Medicine is nothing more than a synopsis or summary of stuff for general public and to sell advertising space. Synopsis means they put just bare bones info.

I do this stuff every day of my life.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ttelise

[guyinthailand]

I did provide link couple pages back. Herbert French clinical differential diagnosis. Show me cute said does cause.

Making stuff up. I would say based on professions we have and the fact you ry upon Wikipedia you are a but more unreliable.

I mentioned chain of events including acute renal failure from arsenic poisoning causing cyanosis and other symptoms in closed thread several times very early on in thread. I have never changed anything as I go along.

You still didn't supply the link. You said you did sometime in the past, but I don't see it. why don't you just supply it again? This is a reasonable request.

I 'rely' on emedicine. I supplied wikipedia link for those such as yourself who may not be able to decipher medical literature. Besides, Wikipedia has rather impressive articles on all things medical. And they provide links when they make claims, unlike you.

So you really think both sisters just somehow, out of the blue, got renal failure?

And i already proved to you that arsenic does not cause bleeding gums and bruises.

If you don't like Wikipedia, go to emedicine and see for yourself that your ideas of arsenic or renal failure---fail.

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[waza]

http://jillstonge.blogspot.com.au/

http://ondemand.tv3.co.nz/60-Minutes-Thailands-Tourist-Deaths/tabid/59/articleID/2782/MCat/22/Default.aspx

Edited June 17, 2012 by waza

[ttelise]

I did provide link couple pages back. Herbert French clinical differential diagnosis. Show me cute said does cause.

Making stuff up. I would say based on professions we have and the fact you ry upon Wikipedia you are a but more unreliable.

I mentioned chain of events including acute renal failure from arsenic poisoning causing cyanosis and other symptoms in closed thread several times very early on in thread. I have never changed anything as I go along.

You still didn't supply the link. You said you did sometime in the past, but I don't see it. why don't you just supply it again? This is a reasonable request.

I 'rely' on emedicine. I supplied wikipedia link for those such as yourself who may not be able to decipher medical literature.

So you really think both sisters just somehow, out of the blue, got renal failure?

And i already proved to you that arsenic is an extremely unlikely cause of bleeding gums and bruises.

The only thing you proved is that your an idiot and cannot use google. Arsenic causes bleeding gums, especially in acute poisoning sufficient to cause death. Believe what you want. I am only arguing about symptoms and differential diagnosis which I stared clearly in first now closed thread on this.

I still am not sure if coumadin toxicity causes vomiting. I don't think it does, but it may cause a small emesis discharge of coffee ground appearance due to internal profusion. Different than vomiting stomach contents all over room.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BGG9xq7LVoUC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=arsenic+cause+bleeding+gums&source=bl&ots=Qqz2POetKK&sig=i5eF2yAXbCdFxtbXDnpVXs_BDk4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yzPeT47sG4mq8AT4qMDACg&ved=0CGEQ6AEwAQ

Edited June 17, 2012 by ttelise

[ttelise]

I don't know or really care what they ingested. It's a crime and needs to be investigated.

If in fact is was coumadin toxicity, that is so frickin easy to diagnosis. Probably the easiest thing to see evidence of out of everything we are discussing. I have seen first hand the effects of acute coumadin and heparin toxicity and heparin syndrome.

[guyinthailand]

The only thing you proved is that your an idiot and cannot use google. Arsenic causes bleeding gums, especially in acute poisoning sufficient to cause death. Believe what you want. I am only arguing about symptoms and differential diagnosis which I stared clearly in first now closed thread on this.

I still am not sure if coumadin toxicity causes vomiting. I don't think it does, but it may cause a small emesis discharge of coffee ground appearance due to internal profusion. Different than vomiting stomach contents all over room.

http://books.google....ved=0CGEQ6AEwAQ

I clicked on your link and it does not say arsenic causes bleeding gums. Your link is to google books which has a bunch of unrelated stuff about arsenic.

Nowhere in emedicine or any other diagnostic place on the net does it say arsenic causes bleeding gums routinely.

Okay, Mr Google expert, do this: type 'arsenic bleeding gums' into google and see what you get.

Now type 'rat poison bleeding gums" and see what you get.

Nothing.

your credibility is now kaput.

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand